Prabhupada: What is the prospect, Hong Kong? I don't think there is any.

Hari-sauri: Bangkok.

Prabhupada: Er, Bangkok, yes.

Yogesvara: No, my personal conclusion after a few weeks there is that either there should be a traveling party doing that part of the subcontinent... Otherwise, if there is a grhastha couple with some experience, we could have an information center in this one house. Because it's not expensive. Living there is very cheap. There is good foodstuffs and rent is not expensive.

Prabhupada: Now, this house, we can continue to live there?

Yogesvara: We can continue to rent. Rent is only $175 a month, including utilities. So it is not at all expensive.

Prabhupada: And it is a very nice house.

Yogesvara: Yes. House is in good shape. There is enough room.

Prabhupada: So why not maintain that?

Yogesvara: Then someone has to be delegated to be there.

Prabhupada: Someone... Find out.

Yogesvara: Find out some people.

Prabhupada: Hm. And the girl can speak in the local language. She may also...

Yogesvara: She can speak in the language. She'll be all right as long as she has some good association.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: That means, perhaps, a grhastha couple, so that there's some girl for her to be with. [break]

Prabhupada: ...not married. Better if she would have been married. So there is no candidate for marrying her?

Yogesvara: Not in France. At one point she was expressing the desire to receive some training, and she even mentioned Los Angeles. But any center where she could receive training would be helpful. She's enthusiastic, but...

Prabhupada: Yes. I know that she's enthusiastic.

Yogesvara: She had... [break]

Prabhupada: Preaching work is meant for the sannyasis, not for the married persons. Sannyasi and brahmacari, they go... (microphone rattling) Married couple also go... Generally it is meant for that. So if you have got sufficient men for preaching work, so you can make one center here and traveling...

Yogesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So. GBC... What I can do?

Hari-sauri: The second language is French, isn't it?

Yogesvara: Not too much French. English there is. Is there a GBC for Thailand?

Prabhupada: Every GBC is for everywhere. Let it be considered in the next meeting.

Yogesvara: At Mayapura.

Prabhupada: You can continue rent for one or two months more and see if there is possibility. Our mission is for every city, every town, every village, and if we can maintain for some utility, that is very good. If you have no men, we cannot linger on there. Otherwise we want to open branches everywhere. That is our mission. (aside:) We have... What is...?

Yogesvara: We'll be leaving tonight.

Prabhupada: Where?

Yogesvara: To France via Bangkok.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Yogesvara: We just came to make the report to you, and we were in Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: So you will not stay here up to...? No.

Hari-sauri: Festival?

Yogesvara: There is work for us, service waiting in France.

Prabhupada: So what is the report in France? Paris atmosphere is all right?

Yogesvara: Paris? Paris, there is good enthusiasm because there is sankirtana party. It is more difficult at the farm, because there is no sankirtana.

Prabhupada: Why? There are so many men. There is no sankirtana?

Yogesvara: Yes. It is far from the nearest city.

Prabhupada: But within the farm there is no sankirtana?

Yogesvara: Regular temple activities are going on.

Prabhupada: Sankirtana is there.

Yogesvara: There is once a week a party going out.

Prabhupada: No, not going out. I mean to say in the temple.

Yogesvara: Inside the temple. Oh, yes. Inside the temple regular programs are there.

Prabhupada: So why outside? There is no sufficient men? But when I was there I saw so many men.

Yogesvara: Wherever you go, thousands of people will follow.

Hari-sauri: They were not all from the farm. They were from everywhere.

Prabhupada: Then not many devotees are there in the farm?

Yogesvara: There are maybe thirty-five devotees traveling, sankirtana devotees, and then...

Prabhupada: Centering that farm?

Yogesvara: Centered at the farm. They come back maybe once every two months. And then there are about eighty devotees at the farm, of which forty are children. Of those children, twenty or twenty-two are Gurukula children. The others are too small.

Prabhupada: So nobody is engaged in production, fruit, flowers, grains, milk?

Yogesvara: There are not many full-time devotees doing production, maybe four full time.

Prabhupada: And why part time?

Yogesvara: Part time, everyone is trying to do an hour a day.

Prabhupada: So what they do, others?

Yogesvara: Well, from the other forty devotees left there is the staff of pujaris, press, temple maintenance. So not so many are left for doing full-time work on the land.

Prabhupada: You are not getting new devotees to join?

Yogesvara: In Paris.

Prabhupada: Yes. From Paris or here... In Paris... From Paris you can bring in the farm.

Yogesvara: Well, at the farm there is not as much of a new bhakta program as in Paris. So the new men are encouraged to stay in Paris to get fixed up first.

Prabhupada: So new... When they are trained up, they can come, live, especially grhasthas. My point is whether the farm is attractive. Not very much.

Yogesvara: The potential is wonderful.

Prabhupada: And therefore I'm asking. Potential is wonderful, so why they are not attracted to live in the farm and be self-independent and chant Hare Krsna? That is our farm project. Our farm project is they should be satisfied with simple living. That is nice living. If you get milk, if you get fruit, if you get grain and open air, it is very healthy life. Why they should not be attracted?

Yogesvara: It is still the beginning, and because it's the beginning, it is a little difficult sometimes.

Prabhupada: That may be. But this should be our aim. We should not be attracted by the modern city life. Simplified life. Save time and utilize for advancing in Krsna consciousness. That is perfect life. Just like Vrndavana. Vrndavana life means agriculturist, cowherd boys, uneducated girls, cows and calves, and tree, fruits. This is Vrndavana. The center is Krsna.

Yogesvara: Simple living.

Prabhupada: But they are the topmost devotees. These (chuckling) uneducated, without any town life, cow-men, they are Krsna's best friend. Unsophisticated, no education, but love intensethat is perfect. That attracted Krsna more. Vrndavanam parityajya na padam ekam (sic:) na kartavya... Krsna is so much attached to Vrndavana that He goes nowhere... What is that? They are not educated girls, up-to-date fashion, (indistinct) or nothing. Crude. As soon as there was blowing of the flute, immediately they began to run towards Krsna. Somebody is taking care of children, somebody is engaged in boiling milk, and somebody was even lying down with her husband. Still, immediately... Very crude, unsophisticated, but intense love for Krsnathat is Vrndavana. We want to introduce this farm project means intense love for Krsna. And other thingsvery simple: little milk, little food grain, little vegetable, that's all. And that is very nice. If you get fresh vegetable, fresh milk, and food grain, what do you want more? And from milk you can prepare so many nice preparations, unlimited number, all very palatable, sweet. This civilization we want to introduce, not so-called rascal civilization and become implicated in this cycle of birth and death. This is not civilization. This is killing civilization. Human being got the opportunity to get out of these clutches of birth and death. They do not understand. They're so rascal, they do not understand how they are implicated in this cycle of birth and death, nor they do take it seriously, that this is the problem, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. They are so blind rascals, they do not see that this is real suffering. They do not know it. Simply theorizing, making plan, and they do not know what is the suffering. Such a rascal civilization. So we have to introduce real civilization. Therefore we are struggling so hard. So make in such a way. That's a very nice place, center of Europe and very nice place. What is the condition of rainfall?

Yogesvara: Last summer was dry, but it was not so much dangerous for us. And now it is steady.

Prabhupada: So there must be rainfall. And if we become Krsna conscious, chant Hare Krsna, there will be rainfall.

Yogesvara: That will be true everywhere we go.

Prabhupada: There'll be rainfall. And then even barren land will be fertile. They do not know this. They are importing water. These rascals, they continue sinful life and import water. There are oceans and seas. Why (chuckling) you scientist cannot bring the water, make cloud and pour water? Where is that science? What do they say about it?

Svarupa Damodara: They are making it.

Prabhupada: (laughs) Again making. These rascals can promise...

Svarupa Damodara: Slowly.

Prabhupada: While slowly, then life will be automatically finished. Instead of seeing success, he'll be... He will die. Sarthe sarthe dal puriya gelun.(?) One man was to go to a fair, so he began to dress himself nicely. So dressing, dressing, in the meantime the fair is finished. (laughs) This is their program. You require water immediately: "All right, after three hundred millions of-water." This is science, all rascals. I use very strong word, but actually... Simply promising, no solution of problems. They do not know even what is what. But big, big words, jugglery of words... They are themselves rascals, and some rascals praise them, "Oh, you are..." Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. What they can do? Real problem, there is no solution. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. Big, big scientists, why they not make provision that "My dear students, when I shall be dying, you give this pill and I shall again...," or "I am manufacturing another brain like me. You can utilize it"? Where is that science? The scientific brain of Einstein, he could not prepare another brain like his. Hm? Was he able to do that?

Svarupa Damodara: No. No. They have to...

Prabhupada: But who made his brain? He is accepted as a great scientist because he has got good brain, but he cannot make that brain. There is another scientist. He has made this brain. So we have to seek that scientist.

Svarupa Damodara: Krsna.

Prabhupada: That is... Therefore he's budhah. Iti matva. When he understands that there is a big scientist who has made all these things, iti matva, he understands that. Iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah. "Oh, my great scientist is Krsna." And drdha-vratah. "Oh, here is the scientist. Why shall I go to the rascal scientist? Simply jugglery of words." They cannot make even an egg, and they are promising life, and we come from chemicals. They cannot study even the what contents of the egg, what is the con... We can see in our naked eyes. There is some white substance, yellow substance, covered. You do it. You are claiming chemical. You cannot study even the chemicals from the egg. Hm? What do you think, scientist? Do you know what is the chemical?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So why don't you make another egg with the chemicals and bring life?

Svarupa Damodara: In principle they can make all chemicals in the egg.

Prabhupada: No, no, they can make, but...

Svarupa Damodara: But they don't make life.

Prabhupada: If you see... You can do everything, but at the end it is failure.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. The chemical composition of the egg can be synthesized.

Prabhupada: That's all right. I say that you do it, and make it egg-shaped, and now we have... What is called? Incubator?

Svarupa Damodara: Incubation.

Prabhupada: Incubation, and get. Why take the egg from the chicken?

Svarupa Damodara: They can make the chemicals, but life cannot come out of that.

Prabhupada: Then why do you say that life comes from chemicals? Why do you make this false propaganda? That is our protest. You cannot do, it and still you make false propaganda.

Svarupa Damodara: In principle... Last month in December, this Khorana... He's from M.I.T., the Indian who got Nobel Prize a few years ago. He's one of the big scientists in this, called, molecular biology. Actually he synthesized this code gene, one of the small fragments of... They're called DNA molecule. It's supposed to be the molecule for all living systems. So the promise was about ten years ago...

Prabhupada: Again promise. That promise we don't want.

Svarupa Damodara: No, the promise was about ten years ago that once they synthesized this gene, complete synthesis, then they'll be able to make life...

Prabhupada: "They will be." Again promise.

Svarupa Damodara: ...in the test tube. But it's not working. They have synthesized now.

Prabhupada: Then why do you talk nonsense if it is not working? Therefore you are nonsense.

Svarupa Damodara: So actually it is good. But we have come to a point now even in science that their promises are all going to go wrong.

Prabhupada: Yes. That we want to prove. That is our propaganda. Therefore we have engaged you. Prove that they are all rascals. They are giving false promise.

Yogesvara: But then they will say "We have produced so many successes also."

Prabhupada: What is nonsense success? We don't take that success!

Yogesvara: Well, we have polio vaccine, we have aspirin.

Prabhupada: I am so successful that I am going to die tomorrow. I am so successful.

Hari-sauri: Aspirin won't save you from death.

Prabhupada: Mother asked... Mother Durga asked the devotee... Because Durga comes every year. Asked the devotee, "My dear son, you are happy?" "Yes, mother, very happy." "So there is no complaint?" "Only two complaint." "What is that?" "There is no food and there is no cloth. Otherwise we are very happy." (laughter) Two difficulties: no food, no cloth. That's all. These rascals are like that. Everything advanced, but when the question of death, "Oh, that..." Einstein also died.

Svarupa Damodara: In open discussion they come around to this point, that they're lacking some fundamental knowledge.

Prabhupada: Yes, that we have to prove. Therefore I am teasing you. Prove that they are passing on as very intelligent, very advanced, but all rascals. Let them admit that "We are rascals without God consciousness." That is my propaganda. [break] Let them understand that without God consciousness they are rascals. And why the rascals should pass on as very intelligent in the rascal society? Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. He's rascal, and some other small rascals, they are praising, "Oh, you are so great. You are so great."

Yogesvara: They may challenge us also.

Prabhupada: What is that challenge?

Yogesvara: That "What is your solution to hunger? We are feeding people because we have produced ways of making crops grow faster."

Prabhupada: What you are feeding? Then why do you complain against me? If you are feeding, that is no challenge to me. You are rascal! You cannot do it. You are challenging me. This is the answer. If you are actually feeding, then where is challenge to me? You do not know how to answer.

Yogesvara: Well we are also feeding them meat, but you object to that.

Prabhupada: Meat... Why there are so many hungry persons? Meat or any, stool, whatever you like, you do. But why there are so many hungry persons? You are complaining that: "We are feeding." Are you feeding all of them?

Yogesvara: They will say in India it is because of religion.

Prabhupada: Again India, again. Take the total. Why say India and America...?

Yogesvara: Well, because the example is most striking there of people who allow their children to go hungry because of their religion.

Prabhupada: So we don't say that you keep them hungry. But can you give them life?

Yogesvara: Therefore they start these programs that "You give up your religion."

Prabhupada: You are also captivated by their program.

Hari-sauri: But we see in the materially advanced society...

Prabhupada: What this material advance? You don't want to die; you have to die. Where is material advancement?

Hari-sauri: But there's no poverty or anything like that.

Prabhupada: There is poverty. And "We are..." The same thing: "Mother, everything is all right. Simply there is no cloth, there is no food." You don't want to die. Nobody wants to die. Why you are dying? That is the real poverty. From the sastra we understand, na hanyate hanyamane sari... [Bg. 2.20]. Why I am under this tribulation?

Yogesvara: So they may challenge, "Do you mean to say that you can feed the whole world without meat?"

Prabhupada: We don't say; you are saying. We don't say. We say that you must be punished without food. You are dying without food. That is your proper justice. We say that. We are not anxious to this daridra-narayana-seva. We are not. We give. Whatever we have got, we distribute prasadam. That's all. We are not concerned about their daridra-narayana-seva. That is not our business. Suppose there are so many persons, they are without food in the hospital. Doctor has prescribed, "No food." What you can do there? Can you show your sympathy? "Oh, so many persons are lying without... Let us give." Then you'll be beaten with shoes.

Yogesvara: Because you haven't understood the purpose.

Prabhupada: If you go with sympathy that "So many hungry persons are here," then you will be beaten with shoes. That we know, That we should not disturb the arrangement of the hospital. We are saner. But you are disturbed. "Oh, so many people are starving. Let me give him some." You are rascal.

Hari-sauri: But why should we be callous to the sufferings of others?

Prabhupada: Yes! Because the arrangement is there, hospital, he should not have food. Why shall I disturb him? I must be callous. That is intelligent. I know that when the hospital, the doctor's keeping in starvation, it is good for him. Why shall I disturb?

Hari-sauri: So then why do you go to the hospital when you're sick? When you're sick, then why do you take medicine and consult doctor? Why not be callous to that, too?

Prabhupada: Callous means we... Callous means we can take treatment, but we cannot protest against the doctor, that "Why you are not giving me food?" We take treatment. That is saner. If the doctors ask me that "Don't eat," I take the treatment. I don't protest that "Why you are keeping me in starvation?" You are doing that, rascal, that "Why you are keeping me in starvation?" But one who knows things, he doesn't protest. That is Vaisnava way. Tat te 'nukampam su-samiksamanah [SB 10.14.8]. "Oh, my Lord, You are keeping me in this tribulation. It is Your great mercy." When Krsna keeps me in starvation I take it as mercy. I don't protest. That is Vaisnava. The saner person, when he is, the hospital, he is put into starvation, he takes, "Oh, doctor, you are so merciful you are curing me." And the rascal will protest, "Oh! You are keeping me in starvation?" And other friend comes, "Why you are keeping him...?" They're all rascals, all rascals, cent percent. They do not know what is arrangement in the hospital and they go, poke their nose in which is not their business. They are rascal. One who says like that, "We have done this...," Oh, you are rascal. You cannot do it. You are simply poking your nose where there is no business for you. A Vaisnava will never protest. Tat te 'nukampam. And Krsna said, tams titiksasva bharata. He never said that "You become agitated." Matra-sparsas tu kaunteya sitosna-sukha-duhkha [Bg. 2.14]. "These things have come and gone, will go. Why you are bothered, your brain, about these things?"

Hari-sauri: That may be good advice for a Vaisnava, but what about all the thousands of people who are suffering and not knowing the cause?

Prabhupada: Therefore they are rascals! Vaisnava is the only intelligent. Therefore we say rascals, boka. Therefore their general name is boka. They do not know things, how it is going on by superior management. Boka.

Yogesvara: But we do protest the nonsense of the rascal politicians.

Prabhupada: You can do it, but you do not know what is the cause and why one is suffering, why... These laws you do not know. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg. 3.27]. The prakrti is doing. You are thinking, "Oh, I can do something." Ahankara-vimudhatma. You are rascal. By false prestige you are thinking that you are so great you can do something beyond God's arrangement. So that is your rascaldom.

Hari-sauri: Then why do we bother to preach? Why not just sit and do our bhajana?

Prabhupada: We preach that "Submit to God." That's all. That is my all preaching. We don't say that you protest against the arrangement of God." We don't say. We simply say, "Whatever arrangement God has made, you submit." That's all.

Hari-sauri: "But understand that it is from God."

Prabhupada: Hm? Yes. That is our preaching.

Satsvarupa: And if they submit, they'll never have to suffer again.

Prabhupada: Again. That's it. That is our proposal. We say, "You rascal, you don't be overintelligent. You submit to God. You'll be happy. Because you cannot become intelligent, you are rascal. So give up this rascaldom. sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66], whatever you have created, all rascaldom. Simply surrender to Krsna. Then you'll be happy. Your science, your politics, your philosophy, your so on, so on, so onall rascaldom. Sarva-dharman. You are thinking that we have created so many humanitarianism, this ism, that ism, that." We say these are all rascaldom. The sooner you give up this habit, simply surrender to Krsna, you...

Yogesvara: So in other words, we're not advocating change of position. Just change of consciousness.

Prabhupada: There is no change of position. You are rascal. You are thinking there is change of position. There is no change of position. The sun is everlastingly rising from the east. You cannot change that.

Yogesvara: No, but let us say the people who are in Communist countries...

Prabhupada: You bring any "ist." They are all rascals. Take it. Then you are intelligent. You can bring any ism, but they're all rascals. You cannot change the law of nature.

Hari-sauri: If a man is destined to be poor, he'll be poor.

Prabhupada: You cannot change. Prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]. That is ahankara-vimudhatma. That is the false ahankara. "Oh, I can become. I know something. I have become scientist. I have become politician." That is ahankara, simply. It is useless. You cannot do anything. Hm?

Svarupa Damodara: Understanding the laws of nature and the provider of the laws of nature is necessary.

Prabhupada: Yes. That laws of nature is working. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya bahir-artha-maninah [SB 7.5.31]. Huh? Andha yathandhair..., te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah. Isa-tantra, by the laws of nature they are tightly, hand and legs are, they are bound up. What they can do? Therefore Krsna summarizes all the different types of tribulation. Krsna said... These all kinds of tribulation is summarized in these four principlesjanma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9]. Ah. Bas. You make solution these, first of all. Then talk of all nonsense. You cannot make any solution. There are different types of suffering, but they are all summarized in these four words-janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. Make solution. This is God's challenge. You are challenging God in His arrangement, and God's challenge is that "Here are four principles. Do something for these, rascal. Then you talk of solution."

Svarupa Damodara: That's the basic laws of nature, which we cannot alter. We cannot change. It will come sooner or later.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is the use?

Yogesvara: But let us say by his karma a man is in a position where he cannot perceive...

Prabhupada: That is the... That is in the via media. The real trouble is therejanma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. Now if you can make change... Suppose you are now a dog. You can become a man. But that is not solution. Or you are man; you can become a demigod. Karma. But that does not make solution! Either you become demigod or man or dog or cat or insect, you must have these tribulations, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9]. That is God's challenge. You first of all make solution. But you are eternal. Why you are in this condition? Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. You... That means you are eternally suffering, punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], simply changing the position. But suffering's there. So you are taking credit by little change of the position. And that is your foolishness. And God challenges you, "You make solution of these things." Why little change? Suppose I am... I have got so many centers. Sometimes I live in the palace, other times a cottage. So this is change of position. But I am the same man. So whatever comfort or discomfort is there in that you France palace, the same comfort and discomfort is in this cottage. But if I think, "Now I am in the France palace, or Bhaktivedanta Manor palace. I am happy," that is foolishness. They are doing that. You are eating something bitter. So it is in the iron pot. You are thinking, "If I put it in the golden pot, it will be nice." That is your foolishness. The taste, either you put in the golden pot or iron pot or in the floor, the taste is the same. So our taste is this eating sleeping, sex and defense. So that is going on.

Svarupa Damodara: We have an example in our article about this, about the laws of karma and the living entities. So we use this pig.(?) So we say that...

Prabhupada: Laws of karma is simply change of body, deha upapatti, the same process, to put the same eatable from iron pot to golden pot or from golden pot to another pot. This is law of karma. But the taste is not changed. The bitter taste is there, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi. That these rascals, they do not understand. The Einstein, he gave so many improvement of life, but he is dying. He's tasting the same bitterness as a dog is tasting. Therefore we do not give any position better than the dog. Why you are dying? Why you cannot change this taste? Stop this. Then you are scientist.

Hari-sauri: He died in a leper colony, didn't he?

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, he died.

Hari-sauri: He went to help some lepers. He went to do some work in the leper colony at the end of his life, trying to save them.

Prabhupada: That is another imagination, as if by leper colony he'll stop his death. It is not possible. The real solution, real problem, is this, that "Why you are dying?" Stop this.

Svarupa Damodara: Science, in principle, is also aiming for two things. One is to understand the nature of the Absolute. Indirectly or to some degree, science is aiming at that, too, plus to solve the problems of life. These two...

Prabhupada: The problems of life is birth, death, old age, disease. That they cannot... Real problem is this.

Svarupa Damodara: Just like trying to relieve my cold or some sort of physical suffering. That is temporary.

Prabhupada: That is temporary. That is temporary. That I can change without your scientific help. Now you have discovered this sweater. I can go to the sunshine, and it will be all right. I don't require. Nature's arrangement is already there.

Svarupa Damodara: That's true. But still, people like to be happy.

Prabhupada: No, no, where is happiness? That is our misunderstanding. If you have to die, if you have to suffer from disease, if you have to become old... Just like I am old. I have got so many inconvenience. You are young man. I feel that you are so in convenient position. I was also young man. So how can I check it? I may be spiritual master of so many young men, you are trying to give me all comfort, but because I have got this body, old body, I am suffering. How you can relieve it?

Svarupa Damodara: Those who know... Those who know about the real nature of this knowledge, they understand. But those... Just like scientists, they are thinking that they will be able to solve some...

Prabhupada: And therefore they are rascals. Therefore they are rascals. They're thinking wrongly. It is not possible for you. Actual suffering, I am. You are scientist. But can you give me relief from my old age?

Yogesvara: No, that's what they want. They want to make it less painful. They want to make old age less painful, less debilitating, so that old people can be more productive and engage in more activity.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is another side. I mean to say so far the body is concerned, I am suffering due to old age. You are scientist. You are European. You are American. Can you give me any relief? You have the idea, "To keep our spiritual master in perfect comfort," but you cannot do it because due to my old age. You may try your best, but it is impossible for you.

Svarupa Damodara: It is beyond our...

Prabhupada: Ah! That is... That we should admit. That is... That is intelligence. Therefore we should try for relief if there is actually any relief. That relief is Krsna consciousness. The Krsna says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. Now, whatever suffering's there, up to this point... Next you are not going to accept this material body. And that is solution. Mam eti. As soon as you go back to home, everything is solved. That we have to establish. We are not presenting all rascaldom. Here is the solution, that "This life, whatever you are suffering or enjoying, that is temporary. Agamapayinah. It comes and goes. Don't bother. Be Krsna conscious and solve all the problems." This is our point.

Prthu-putra: But if they accept, do we have program?

Prabhupada: If they accept, let them suffer. But our propaganda is "You accept it."

Prthu-putra: But if they accept Krsna consciousness, do we have program to dovetail the propensities of being scientists or politicians? If, for example, they accept to understand Krsna and they accept from Krsna conscious...

Prabhupada: Then we do not bother about the scientist.

Prthu-putra: Still, the tendency is there.

Prabhupada: Dependency, that is... We are practiced. Suppose you have given this motorcar, but it doesn't mean that if there is no motorcar my Krsna consciousness will be checked. If there is little facility, we can take it. That is another thing. But it is not that because there is no motorcar, then there is no Krsna consciousness. It is not like that. Ahaituky apratihata. Krsna consciousness cannot be checked by any impediment. That cannot be checked. So we are not dependent. But to make the best use of a bad bargain. If we get some facility, why we should not take? We are not so fool. If I get a motorcar to go somewhere, why shall I walk? That is another foolishness. But we are not dependent on the motor... "Because there is no motorcar, therefore my Krsna consciousness stopped." We are not such fools. The motorcar is available; all right, take advantage of it. We don't decline to accept whatever little material facilities are there. That is not foolish... That is foolishness. We can take advantage. But our main business is how to make advance in Krsna consciousness. Not that we are suffering in this material world, and because we have got this motorcar, therefore our suffering is now ended. We are not so fool. We can take advantage of the motorcar, but we don't take that this is the solution. We are not so fool. But these rascals, they are taking, "This is the solution." That is not possible. That is called durasaya. Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah. They are thinking that "Material adjustment, we shall be happy." That is durasaya. It will never be fulfilled. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know. Unless we go back home, back to Godhead, there is no solution. This is not solution. This is durasaya. Everything is described. Durasaya means the hope which will never be successful. So these rascals, they are trying to be happy by so-called scientific advancement. That is durasaya. That's not possible, hopeless.

Svarupa Damodara: Yesterday, when I came from Manipur, there was one Bengali engineer, civil engineer, who was working in Manipur, Mr. P. K. Sanyal.

Prabhupada: Hari-sauri? You close this part of the door. Yes That's all. That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: Mr P. K. Sanyal from Balliganj.

Prabhupada: P. K. Shah?

Svarupa Damodara: Sanyal. Sanyal. He's in late sixties or early seventies, very old. We became very good friends. He's a very nice man.

Prabhupada: On the plane?

Svarupa Damodara: On the plane. When I went also, we were in the same plane, because he was making a bridge in Manipur. So he invited me to come to his place in Calcutta, in Balliganj. When also I came back we were in the same plane. It just happened. So he started talking to me that he lost about forty thousand rupees because bridge was broken, and so he said he was feeling very bad, very sad. He was telling me all stories about "Whether I should prepare my life for the future, or whether I should wind up, as he is. Then I started talking about that we always want to be happy, but somehow we misunderstand about our basic position, what position we shall take up, whether... He said he has great difficulty in making decisions, "Whether I shall decide this," so many problems, not knowing what to decide. So we started talking about the real nature of knowledge. The real knowledge is to understand the real difference between this life and matter, the fundamental principle of knowledge.

Prabhupada: This is explained in the Bhagavad-gita.

Svarupa Damodara: That's the basic point that I was driving that, that we shouldn't be too much entangled in this material...

Prabhupada: They must be entangled. They are trying in the false way, wrong way. He is suffering on account of being placed in this material atmosphere, and he's trying to adjust things with this material... That means he's becoming more and more entangled. Sometimes we have seen a fly falls down in the bee honey and he becomes entangled. So how it will be possible to become free and again fly unless he's taken and washed all these dirty things for him? Then he can fly. Freedom. And so long he'll try to adjust things in the prakrti-sthani, that is nonsense, all nonsense.

Svarupa Damodara: And while talking, all of a sudden there was a very big bumping in the plane, so everyone was afraid just before we reached Calcutta. So then I mentioned that every moment we are in danger.

Prabhupada: Padam padam yad vipadam [SB 10.14.58]. Every step there is danger. The other day in Bombay there was accident. Just going up, and so many persons died immediately, ninety persons. Immediately. What is the...?

Yogesvara: In Bangkok just before we came, just a few days before, a big 747 had crashed.

Prabhupada: Accha? So many persons died?

Yogesvara: So many people dead, just before we arrived.

Prabhupada: Just see. So you have discovered such thing that any moment you can die, every one. So therefore this is problem.

Hari-sauri: When we just drove down the road just now, when we went past, we saw some people holding a woman, and she was screaming and foaming at the mouth. Just further down the road there was the body of her husband on the road. He'd been squashed flat by a truck, and the body was still there. And the head... Head and arms...

Prabhupada: Only danger. Padam padam yad vipadam [SB 10.14.58]. Every step, simply danger, and we are proud of our scientific advancement. The aeroplane is scientific advancement, but the danger is also more. As soon as you crash, all are altogether... Without an aeroplane one or two men could die, but because you have made this scientific advancement, you all die.

Hari-sauri: Hundred at a time. (laughs)

Prabhupada: Hundred.

Svarupa Damodara: Together.

Prabhupada: This is your advancement. (laughs) Every line of action you see, you have created greatest danger. No solution. Solution is not there, but you have created greater danger. That is your credit.

Svarupa Damodara: He was very impressed. He can become life member. Very, very nice man. Very old. And he said his children are in United States and he has everything he has. He's very rich also.

Prabhupada: Why don't you ask him to come? He's rich. Ask him to come, live with us in Mayapura, and rest of the life let him become happy. Why he's after money?

Svarupa Damodara: His aim is to make as many bridges as possible. He's thinks that's some sort of philanthropic work.

Prabhupada: This is maya. This is maya. What he can do? He will die. This is called maya. Therefore our system is because you are rascal, do all rascaldom up to fiftieth year. Then give it up. All kinds of rascaldom you can continue. Pancasordhvam vanam vrajet. Then you retire from all this rascal work.

Svarupa Damodara: Still, we don't know we'll live for fifty years.

Prabhupada: That is another difficulty. For general calculation a man can live up to a hundred years in this age. So in the middle, stop all rascaldom-compulsory. Now take to Krsna consciousness. Because you are persistent to continue your rascaldom, all right, do it up to this point. And then stop all this. Chant Hare Krsna. This is a concession for continuing the rascaldom. But if he's so fool that he will continue the rascaldom as Jawaharlal Nehru did and Gandhi did and Hitler did and-up to the point of deathlet him do. What can be done? They will continue their rascaldom. Mudhah nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Gandhi, unless he was killed by his own men, he did not retire. Jawaharlal Nehru, when he was just... There is no other way. He was in Dehra Dun, still Prime Minister, and he was brought very quickly from Dehra Dun to Delhi, and after one hour he died. All these politicians... And it is learned that he has become a dog in Scandinavia. You cannot say, "No," because you do not know what he has become. But tatha dehantara-praptih. He must have changed the body. So where is your science? Prakrteh kriyamanani [Bg. 3.27]. The prakrti will change your body. Krsna says, tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. And He's giving vivid example. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara [Bg. 2.13]. And Krsna is speaking. I shall not believe in Krsna's word, and I shall go to some rascal? We are not so fool. Fools are bahir-artha-maninah. "Oh, we are making this advancement. We will do in the future. We'll do." These are the business of the fools and rascals, not intelligent, which will never be successful. Durasaya. But they'll stick to that false hope. Krsna yei, bhaje sei bada catura: "One who takes to Krsna consciousness is very intelligent." Actually that is the fact. Ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. All the... There are many rascals, and they are under the laws of nature wandering in this material world in different forms of life. So out of many such millions and millions, if one is fortunate, guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija: [Cc. Madhya 19.151] he enters into Krsna consciousness.

Yogesvara: By the mercy of the guru.

Prabhupada: Guru and Krsna, both. Unless Krsna is also merciful-guru says something; Krsna is within; if he says, "Yes, you accept this"we cannot accept.

Yogesvara: Causeless mercy.

Prabhupada: Yes. Guru's business is on behalf of Krsna. As Krsna comes, causeless mercy, the guru is engaged in Krsna's business. Ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg 18.68]. Faithful servant of Krsna. And guru means faithful servant of the Lord. That is guru. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Bas. You become guru, faithful servant. Don't make any change. That is guru. Guru..., to become guru is not difficult thing. But the rascals will not do. He'll manufacture his own words. He is more intelligent than Krsna. He'll give another interpretation, another: "Take this." Take photograph with Bhagavad-gita and talk all nonsense.

Svarupa Damodara: We live on the mercy and the guidance of the guru every moment.

Prabhupada: Yes. So this is para-upakara. People are in so darkness. So give them some knowledge as far as possible. This is real para-upakara, doing welfare, to give Krsna consciousness. He is scientist. He is trying to give among the scientists because his jugglery of words will counteract their jugglery of words. But our aim is very nice, that the rascal may be educated in Krsna consciousness. So you are expecting some success?

Svarupa Damodara: Ah... Yes, by your mercy, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: At least they are trying to understand.

Svarupa Damodara: That lecture that I gave, we made... Sadaputa made that design so it's very attractive to science. That's from our Back to Godhead photograph. Fixed it up.

Prabhupada: If they simply understand that all these laws of nature is going on under the direction of God... They are studying the laws of nature, how things are happening. But simply they have to understand that it is under the direction of Krsna.

Yogesvara: Mayadhyaksena...

Prabhupada: Mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10]. They are lacking that intelligence. They are finding out that "Things are moving so, mean, accurate. There must be somebody behind it." Do you think like that?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: When you see the nature's law is working so accurately, so don't you think that there is some brain behind it?

Svarupa Damodara: There must be.

Prabhupada: Yes. Einstein admitted that. That is real scientific brain. And so nicely it is going on without any brain behind it? How it can go so nice? Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. That brain is Krsna. That they do not know. Now our business is: "Here is the brain. If you take it, you benefit it. What you are actually searching, here is." Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Find out this verse. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam.

Hari-sauri: Even for a crude machine, it requires some intelligence to construct a design.

Prabhupada: Anything you take, it requires intelligence. Just like you have made this garland. Somebody intelligent has decorated. So who has made it? That they have no intelligence. They decorate this garland, one red flower and yellow flower, make it very attractive, but who has made this flower? That they have no intelligence. And that is answered. Mam ebhyah param, mudho nabhijanati. I am trying to taking the flower to make it more beautiful by setting them in this way, but who has made this beautiful flower? Whose brain is there? And that is explained there.

Prabhupada: That is the... So I am setting up the flower, but who has made this flower? That is... I do not know. But somebody has made. You have to accept. Because you are somebody, you are trying to make more beautiful by setting up the different flowers, so who has made the flower? That is intelligent. But mudho nabhijanati. The rascals, they do not.

Yogesvara: They're not interested to know.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Yogesvara: They have no interest to know.

Prabhupada: That means more rascaldom. That is intelligence, they "I am trying to make the flowers more beautiful by setting up in this way, then who has made these beautiful flowers?" That is intelligence. There must be some brain. That is intelligence. That is philosophy. Philosophy means to search out the ultimate?

Svarupa Damodara: Absolute truth.

Prabhupada: That's it. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. This is philosophy. Athato brahma jijnasa. That is philosophy. Philosophy is the science of science. Sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1]. The science of science.

Svarupa Damodara: We have formed this Bhaktivedanta Institute and we had a meeting in Washington.

Prabhupada: Where is my spectacle? So now your, that immigration problem is solved.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Now, where you desire to keep a permanent office or a location of this Bhaktivedanta Institute?

Svarupa Damodara: We are trying to locate a place. Rupanuga suggests that Washington...

Prabhupada: Base.

Svarupa Damodara: ...temple. And...

Prabhupada: But you have got enough place there?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. And Boston is also a good place. Right beside the temple... (end)