Garden Conversation

June 10, 1976, Los Angeles
Nalinikantha: Ten to fifteen new devotees are doing sankirtana.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Nalinikantha: Ten new book distributors in the last month.
Prabhupada: Krsna will give all facilities if we are sincerely serving Krsna. The government gives all facilities to the government servant. The government gives all facilities to the soldiers. When there is fight, there is scarcity of commodities in the civil life, but there is no scarcity among the soldiers. The first consideration, soldiers. Similarly, those devotees who are fighting against maya, their facility is first concern. They're fighting, trying to save the people from the onslaught of material energy. That will be explained. What is next verse?
Nalinikantha: Tat prayaso na kartavyo yata ayur-vyayah param, na tatha.
Prabhupada: What is previous verse before that?
Nalinikantha: Sukham aindriyakam daityah.
Prabhupada: We have discussed this.
Nalinikantha: Yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore, next verse?
tat-prayaso na kartavyo
yata ayur-vyayah param
na tatha vindate ksemam
"Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed toward Krsna consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development."
Prabhupada: Yes, now just see how people are being misguided. Throughout the whole world, the education is for economic development. And here it is condemned that one should not waste his time for so-called economic development. Now our preaching is here, and who will accept it? They'll call us all crazy fellows. We are thinking they are crazy, they're wasting time for economic development, and they are thinking of us, that "These people are crazy, they are doing nothing, escaping." Escaping, do they not say like that?
Nalinikantha: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is the position. We are following the footprints of Prahlada Maharaja. We are following the instruction. There is no need of economic development. Live nature's life. Just like other animals, they have no question of economic development. They do not think of economic development. But still they are having the material facilities-eating, sleeping, sex and defensethere is. But there is no endeavor for economic development. So man, being advanced, why he should be less than the animals? His real business is how to develop Krsna consciousness, not economic development. That is condemned here. Dr. Wolfe will not agree with us. (laughs) All right, read the purport.
Nalinikantha: "We see materialistic persons busily engaged in economic development all day and all night, trying to increase their material opulence, but even if we suppose that they get some benefit from such endeavors, that does not solve the real problem of their lives. Nor do they know what the real problem of life is. This is due to a lack of spiritual education. Especially in the present age, every man is in darkness, in the bodily conception of life, not knowing anything of the spirit soul and its needs. Misguided by the blind leaders of society, people consider the body to be everything, and they are engaged in trying to keep the body materially comfortable. Such a civilization is condemned because it does not lead humanity toward knowing the real goal of life. People are simply wasting time and the valuable gift of the human form, because a human being who does not cultivate spiritual life but dies like the cats and dogs is degraded in his next life. From human life, such a person is put into the cycle of continuous birth and death. Thus one loses the true benefit of human life, which is to become Krsna conscious and solve life's problems."
Prabhupada: Now discuss on this point amongst yourselves whether it is rightly said or wrong. If anyone has any objection. Yes?
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupada, I remember in Atlanta last year when an Indian Ph.D. came to see you and was sitting at your lotus feet, and he spoke about the problems in India, overpopulation and hunger, and then he said to you, "Swamiji, you must always realize the realities." And you said to him, "You don't know the reality." And he did not answer one word. He is now always coming to the temple, although he is working with the monkeys on behavior study. (laughter)
Prabhupada: So anyone has any objection to this statement?
Nalinikantha: I was thinking that Krsna also says that aghayur indriyaramo mogham partha sa jivati. This is useless, spending your time in sense gratification.
Prabhupada: Find out this verse, aghayur indriyaramo.
evam pravartitam cakram
nanuvartayatiha yah
aghayur indriyaramo
mogham partha sa jivati
"My dear Arjuna, a man who does not follow this prescribed Vedic system of sacrifice certainly leads a life of sin, for a person delighting only in the senses lives in vain."
Prabhupada: Purport.
Nalinikantha: "The mammonist philosophy, 'Work very hard and enjoy sense gratification,' is condemned herein by the Lord. Therefore for those who want to enjoy this material world, the above-mentioned cycle of performing yajnas is absolutely necessary. One who does not follow such regulations is living a very risky life, being condemned more and more. By nature's law, this human form of life is specifically meant for self-realization, in either of the three ways-namely karma-yoga, jnana-yoga, or bhakti-yoga. There is no necessity of rigidly following the performances of the prescribed yajnas for the transcendentalists who are above vice and virtue; but those who are engaged in sense gratification require purification by the above-mentioned cycle of yajna performances. There are different kinds of activities. Those who are not Krsna conscious are certainly engaged in sensory consciousness; therefore they need to execute pious work. The yajna system is planned in such a way that sensory conscious persons may satisfy their desires without becoming entangled in the reaction of sense-gratificatory work. The prosperity of the world depends not on our own efforts but on the background arrangement of the Supreme Lord, directly carried out by the demigods. Therefore, the yajnas are directly aimed at the particular demigod mentioned in the Vedas. Indirectly, it is the practice of Krsna consciousness, because when one masters the performance of yajnas, one is sure to become Krsna conscious. But if by performing yajnas one does not become Krsna conscious, such principles are counted as only moral codes. One should not, therefore, limit his progress only to the point of moral codes, but should transcend them, to attain Krsna consciousness."
Prabhupada: Next.
Nalinikantha: Go on reading?
Prabhupada: Yes.
"Therefore, while in material existence [bhavam asritah], a person fully competent to distinguish wrong from right must endeavor to achieve the highest goal of life as long as the body is stout and strong and is not embarrassed by dwindling." (Purport) "As stated by Prahlada Maharaja at the beginning of this chapter, kaumara acaret prajnah. The word prajna refers to one who is experienced and who can distinguish right from wrong. Such a person should not waste his energy and valuable human lifetime simply working like a cat or dog to develop his economic condition."
Prabhupada: Modern education, they cannot understand that this repetition of birth, death, old age and disease is a botheration. They do not understand that. Why they accept it? Accept it, they think there is no other way. But if there is a way to stop this, why do they not take it? Hm? What is the value of this education? They cannot distinguish between right and wrong. Nobody likes death, but death is there. Nobody likes to become old, but the old age is there. Why they set aside these big problems and he's proud of scientific advancement of knowledge? What kind of education this is? If they cannot distinguish between right and wrong, then what is the result of this education? Education means one must be able to distinguish between the right and wrong. But they cannot, or even they do know that death is not good, but why they are not trying how to stop death? Where is the advancement? They are very much proud of advancement of science. Where is the advancement? You cannot stop death. You cannot stop old age. You can manufacture advanced medicine, but why don't you stop disease? Take this pill, there will be no more disease. Where is that science? Hm?
Nalinikantha: They say they're working on it.
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. Bluffing.
Gopavrndapala: Just like we say that Krsna consciousness is a gradual process, they say their scientific advancement is also a gradual process.
Prabhupada: Gradual process, but do they think they will be able to stop death? We are confident that we are going back to home, back to Godhead, Krsna. But where is their confidence that they will be able to stop death, old age, disease?
Dr. Wolfe: The newest fad is now that they say that they're trying, they've established the fact that there is life after death.
Prabhupada: There is.
Dr. Wolfe: They try to do this scientifically again.
Prabhupada: Let them do. Scientifically, there is life after death. That we repeatedly say, that my child's body is dead, it's gone, vanished. I have got a different body. So after death there is life. This is practical. So this Krsna says, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. So similarly, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. This is authoritative statement of God, and practically we see that we get one body after another, but I continue. So where is the objection? So there is life after death. So-called death means annihilation of the body. So if we can stick to that life, that there is no more death, then that is to be sought after. That is intelligence. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita, that if you simply understand Krsna and you become fit to go back to Him, then no more death.
Dr. Wolfe: These people who are investigating into this, into the problem of life after death, are basing their observations on dying people. And there are three or four authors now, especially one woman who is a specialist in the field of dying. She is convinced, firmly convinced, that there is life after death. Her name is Kubler-Ross, and she has written several books on the subject.
Prabhupada: Where she is, English? English woman?
Dr. Wolfe: She is American, German-American.
Prabhupada: Oh, she is here in America.
Dr. Wolfe: Yes, she lives here. She has worked in a clinic for many years, and exclusively with dying people.
Prabhupada: Yes, that.... One has to come to this conclusion undoubtedly. And that is education. Her education is now complete, that he (she) has understood, he (she) is trying to explain scientifically that there is life after death. That is complete education. So everyone should try by his education to establish what is already said in the sastras. That is a fact. When Krsna says, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13], one gets another body, na hanyate hanyamane sarire... [Bg. 2.20]. Krsna says there cannot be any mistake. So if scientist, philosopher, establishes the statement of Krsna by their scientific knowledge, that is real perfect scientific knowledge. And if he wants to defy the statement of Krsna, that is maya. That is not possible. But he's vainlessly trying to do that. But if one by scientific knowledge establishes what Krsna says, that is perfection.
idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va
svistasya suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoh
avicyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupito
[SB 1.5.22]
That is required. We are publishing one book, Dialectic Spiritualism: Vedic Views of Western Philosophy. We are just going to publish one book, Dialectic Spiritualism. Marx's theory is dialectic materialism (laughs). We are going to establish dialectic spiritualism. Go on.
pumso varsa-satam hy ayus
tad-ardham cajitatmanah
nisphalam yad asau ratryam
sete 'ndham prapitas tamah
[SB 7.6.6]
"Every human being has a maximum duration of life of one hundred years, but for one who cannot control his senses, half of those years are completely lost because at night he sleeps twelve hours, being covered by ignorance. Therefore such a person has a lifetime of only fifty years."
Prabhupada: So sleeping is waste of time. Therefore spiritual advancement means minimizing sleeping. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **. About the Gosvamis' life it is said they conquered over nidra-ahara. If you eat extraordinarily, then you will sleep also extraordinarily. If you eat frugally, as much minimum required, then you can conquer over sleep. Eating, sleeping. Sleeping depends on eating. Atyahara. Atyaharah prayasas ca prajalpo niyamagrahah [NoI 2]. The people in the material world.... Atyahara means collecting more than necessity. One, somebody has got millions of dollars; still, he is working hard day and night to increase the bank balance. Why? You have got sufficient money; now you engage your life for spiritual advancement and take little food. God has given you enough. Why you are wasting your time in collecting money and eating more? That is misuse. Therefore Rupa Gosvami says, atyaharah prayasas ca prajalpo niyamagrahah. Ahara means eating, and ahara means collecting. So these are against bhakti principles. Collecting more than necessity or eating more than necessity. Atyaharah prayasas ca prajalpo niyamagrahah. Prayasa, things which are not done very easily, I have to endeavor very, very hard, that kind of work should be avoided. Atyaharah prayasas ca prajalpah, and talking nonsense. No use, you are talking together for hours, what is the use? Prajalpa, it is called prajalpa. And niyamagrahah, and, without any result, following the regulative principlesor not following the regulative principles. Niyama-agrahah. Agrahah means not to accept. That is also bad. That is bad, actually. And simply to see the regulative principles without any result, that is also bad. Atyaharah prayasas ca prajalpo niyamagrahah [NoI 2]. Laulyamgreediness; jana-sangas caand associating with unwanted men, jana-sangah. We should not try to associate with nondevotees. You waste your time talking something. Sadbhir bhaktir vinasyati. By these six principles one is loser in the matter of devotional service. Ahara required. Just like we are reading this Bhagavatam; it is proper utilization of time. Similarly, if we take some newspaper, some statement of the politics, and talk and argue and waste time, there is no need of such thing. I think in our institution there is no newspaper. That is one advantage. In the Western countries, newspaper is very popular thing, a huge bundle of newspaper. Although he'll not read, the newspapermen supplies huge bundle of newspaper. And wasting of paper, printing, unnecessarily cutting the trees, for running on the paper mill. This is sinful activity. They are not reading so many nonsense books and newspapers, but paper is required, there is demand. So paper mill requires cutting of the trees unnecessarily.
Devotee: They say this will be a big problem in the future of this century, a great shortage of trees.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are creating simply problems. Materialistic way of life means anartha. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja says that don't try for all these nonsense things. It is simply killing oneself or lessening the..., or making useless the duration of life. What is this? Bhayam. What does it say? You just read. Simply...
Nalinikantha: Pumso varsa-satam hy ayus tad-ardham cajitatmanah nisphalam yad asau ratryam [SB 7.6.6].
Prabhupada: No, before that.
Nalinikantha: Tat-prayaso na kartavyo yata ayur-vyayah param, na tatha vindate ksemam mukunda...
Prabhupada: Hm. Ayur-vyayah. Simply spending the duration of life. Just like you have got some bank balance, and if you spend it for useless purposes. Similarly, we have got some bank balance or duration of life balance. Our death begins.... From the next moment of our birth, death begins. Suppose I'll live hundred years. So I am born, one day passed means one day is reduced from hundred years. The friends come, "How old is your child?" the parents says "He is three years old." That means three years he has died. Ninety-seven years balance. So if we waste our, this balance of life for nothing, that is forbidden. Kevalayur-vyayah. You utilize the balance for some good purpose. No, we are wasting it. The so-called economic development means we are wasting the balance of our life. This is the philosophy. Read it, na tat, huh?
Nalinikantha: Tat-prayaso?
Prabhupada: Ah, na tat-prayasah kartavyam. This prayasa, endeavor for economic development, na kartavyam, don't do it. Here is a revolution against this modern civilization. They are simply after economic development, and here it is condemned. It is condemned that this kind of endeavor is simply wasting the balance of our life. If one is intelligent, he sees that "I have got, say, ten thousand dollars in the bank balance, now I must utilize it properly so that it may not be spent," that is intelligence. Similarly, we have begun our death from the date of birth. Daily, every moment we are, our balance is being decreased. So therefore we should be intelligent. So long the balance is there, let me utilize it properly by which I can be really benefited. So the ideal of my benefit is that I'm suffering in this material condition of life, to stop this conditional life, to get freedom life. That is the aim of life. And that freedom can be achieved only by going back to home, back to Godhead. Not any other way. You cannot get the freedom of life here in this material.... That is not possible. Although you are trying for it. Everyone is trying to.... (aside:) Kirtanananda Maharaja can come in. Yes. So without endeavor for this purpose, if we are simply trying to develop our economic condition, that is.... What is that? Ayur-vyayah? What is that word?
Nalinikantha: Yata ayur-vyayah param.
Prabhupada: They are simply killing the duration of life. Then go on.
Nalinikantha: Na tatha vindate ksemam mukunda-caranambujam.
Prabhupada: Hm. This is very difficult to understand for the demonic. Prahlada Maharaja was instructing among the demons. So for them it was difficult. Still, Prahlada Maharaja was trying. The purport is read, this verse?
Nalinikantha: Yes. You say that the problem is that there's a lack of spiritual education in their lives.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the defect always, especially in this age. There is no spiritual education. Hm? Do you think, Dr. Wolfe, there is spiritual education? Is there any in the school, colleges, universities?
Hrdayananda: He's saying if there's any real spiritual education in the colleges and schools.
Dr. Wolfe: To produce new sense-gratifiers.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Nalinikantha: Ne te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum. They don't know.
Prabhupada: Hm?
na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum
durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah
andha yathandhair upaniyamanas
te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah
[SB 7.5.31]
They do not know what is the aim of life. Therefore there is no spiritual education. They do not know. Read further. You shall always hold classes. Read these books, discuss, try to understand. Then time will be properly utilized. Don't talk useless things. Some engagement. So long as you are engaged in the service of the Deity, that is very good. Otherwise, you should hold class, read these books, discuss amongst them. Then the proper utilization of time. Avyartha-kalatvam [Cc. Madhya 23.18-19]. Advancement of devotional service means always be alert whether a moment is misused. Because you cannot get back even a moment of your life if you pay millions of dollars. Not possible. 1967, 10th June, 5 o'clock, you had to do something, and if you have missed, then that 5 o'clock, 10th June, 1960, ah, '76, will never come back, even you pay millions of dollars. So if that moment is improperly passed, then what is more loss than that? So avyartha-kalatvam. We should not let even a moment of our life misused. Avyartha-kalatvam. Nama-gane sada rucih. This is advanced life of Krsna consciousness. Pritis tad vasati sthale [Cc. Madhya 23.18-19]. Attachment for living at places where Krsna had His pastimes, like Vrndavana, Mathura, Dvaraka. Pritis tad vasati sthale. And avyartha-kalatvam [Cc. Madhya 23.18-19]. These are advanced spiritual consciousness. Go on.
"In the tender age of childhood, when everyone is bewildered, one passes ten years. Similarly, in boyhood, engaged in sporting and playing, one passes another ten years. In this way twenty years are wasted. Similarly, in old age, when one is an invalid, unable to perform even material activities, one passes another twenty years wastefully."
Prabhupada: Just like old man like me, eighty years, suppose another twenty years I may live, but I am invalid, I cannot do any solid work. So twenty years in the beginning as child, as young man, in sporting, jumping, twenty years passed. And last twenty years, simply old man's home, invalid home. So forty years gone out of hundred years. Then?
Hrdayananda: (Purport) "Without Krsna consciousness, one wastes twenty years in childhood and boyhood and another twenty years in old age, when one cannot perform any material activities and is full of anxiety about what is to be done by his sons and grandsons and how one's estate should be protected. Half of these years are spent in sleep. Furthermore, one wastes another thirty years sleeping at night during the rest of his life. Thus seventy out of one hundred years are wasted by a person who does not know the aim of life and how to utilize this human form."
"One whose mind and senses are uncontrolled becomes increasingly attached to family life because of insatiable lusty desires and very strong illusion. In such a madman's life, the remaining years are also wasted because even during those years he cannot engage himself in devotional service." Purport. "This is the account of one hundred years of life. Although in this age a lifetime of one hundred years is generally not possible, even if one has one hundred years, the calculation is that fifty years are wasted in sleeping, twenty years in childhood and boyhood, and twenty years in invalidity (jara-vyadhi). This leaves only a few more years, but because of too much attachment to household life, those years are also spent with no purpose, without God consciousness. Therefore, one should be trained to be a perfect brahmacari in the beginning of life, and then to be perfect in sense control, following the regulative principles, if one becomes a householder. From household life one is ordered to accept vanaprastha life and go to the forest and then accept sannyasa. That is the perfection of life. From the very beginning of life, those who are ajitendriya, who cannot control their senses, are educated only for sense gratification, as we have seen in the Western countries. Thus the entire duration of a life of even one hundred years is wasted and misused, and at the time of death one transmigrates to another body, which may not be human. At the end of one hundred years, one who has not acted as a human being in a life of tapasya (austerity and penance) must certainly be embodied again in a body like those of cats, dogs and hogs. Therefore this life of lusty desires and sense gratification is extremely risky."
Prabhupada: Now discuss on this point. If anyone has objection.
Hrdayananda: Objections?
Prabhupada: Yes, Dr. Wolfe.
Dr. Wolfe: Do not some physical means come into the keeping the body strong, healthy, so that devotion is possible at all? Because to produce sick people, of course, is not in the Lord's spirit either, I think.
Prabhupada: No. Our aim is not to create sick people. That is not our aim.
Dr. Wolfe: Swimming, walking, is still important I think.
Prabhupada: No, we do not say. Neither.
Dr. Wolfe: I miss it in the Movement. I think it should not be made a sport, but it should be made, perhaps, a physical must under control.
Prabhupada: No, if you eat more, then you require more exercise to digest unnecessary loading, but if you eat simply, just to keep our body and soul together, you don't require exercise.
Dr. Wolfe: Well...
Prabhupada: Little movement is going on, we are walking. But not this severe type of exercise as surfers and fighting with the sea waves for four hours, five hours, ten hours. (devotees laugh)
Dr. Wolfe: But Srila Prabhupada, a ksatriya has to be strong.
Prabhupada: That is a.... Ksatriya is.... Generally...
Dr. Wolfe: And ksatriyas have to be there.
Prabhupada: This is especially meant for the brahmanas, intelligent. Go on.
"What person too attached to household life due to being unable to control his senses can liberate himself? An attached householder is bound very strongly by ropes of affection for his familywife, children and other relatives." Purport: "Prahlada Maharaja's first proposal was kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha: [SB 7.6.1] 'One who is sufficiently intelligent should use the human form of body from the very beginning of lifein other words, from the tender age of childhoodto practice the activities of devotional service, giving up all other engagements.' Dharman bhagavatan means the religious principle of reviving our relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For this purpose Krsna personally advises, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [Bg. 18.66] 'Give up all other duties and surrender unto Me.' While in the material world we manufacture so many duties in the name of so many isms, but our actual duty is to free ourselves from the cycle of birth, death, old age and disease. For this purpose, one must first be liberated from material bondage, and especially from household life. Household life is actually a kind of license for a materially attached person by which to enjoy sense gratification under regulative principles. Otherwise there is no need of entering household life. Before entering household life, one should be trained as a brahmacari, living under the care of the guru, whose place is known as the guru-kula. Brahmacari guru-kule vasan danto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. From the very beginning, a brahmacari is trained to sacrifice everything for the benefit of the guru. A brahmacari is advised to go begging alms door to door, addressing all women as mother, and whatever he collects goes to the benefit of the guru. In this way he learns how to control his senses and sacrifice everything for the guru. When he is fully trained, if he likes he is allowed to marry. Thus he is not an ordinary grhastha who has learned only how to satisfy his senses. A trained grhastha can gradually give up household life and go to the forest to become increasingly enlightened in spiritual life and at last take sannyasa. Prahlada Maharaja explained to his father that to be freed from all material anxieties one should go to the forest. Hitvatma-patam grham andha-kupam. One should give up his household, which is a place for going further and further down into the darkest regions of material existence. The first advice, therefore, is that one must give up household life (grham andha-kupam). However, if one prefers to remain in the dark well of household life because of uncontrolled senses, he becomes increasingly entangled by ropes of affection for his wife, children, servants, house, money and so on. Such a person cannot attain liberation from material bondage. Therefore children should be taught from the very beginning of life to be first-class brahmacaris. Then it will be possible for them to give up household life in the future. To return home, back to Godhead, one must be completely free from material attachment. Therefore, bhakti-yoga means vairagya-vidya, the art that can help one develop a distaste for material enjoyment.
'By rendering devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, one immediately acquires causeless knowledge and detachment from the world.' If one engages in devotional service from the beginning of life, he easily attains vairagya-vidya, or asakti, detachment, and becomes jitendriya, the controller of his senses. One who perfectly engages in devotional service is therefore called gosvami or svami, master of the senses. Unless one is master of the senses, he should not accept the renounced order of life, sannyasa. A strong inclination for sense enjoyment is the cause of the material body. Without full knowledge one cannot be unattached to material enjoyment, but as long as one is not in that position one is not fit to return home, back to Godhead."
Prabhupada: Now discuss on this point.
Hrdayananda: One point you're mentioning, Prabhupada, is a strong inclination for sense enjoyment is the cause of the material body. So it seems that people try to enjoy their senses in order to become happy, but actually they are causing their own suffering.
Prabhupada: Entanglement. Sat-sanga chadiya kainu asate vilasa te-karane lagila ye mora karma-bandha-phansa. This entanglement.... To repeat birth and death is entanglement. That they do not know. Na te viduh. They're obliged to accept this entanglement life. So? Time is up? So read another verse.
Hrdayananda: Another verse?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Nalinikantha: I have a question, if it's all right. This is, Prahlada is instructing his schoolmates, but his schoolmates, I think they would argue, "That's all right, but we are young now; let us enjoy. Then later on in life we shall take up Krsna consciousness."
Prabhupada: And unless you learn.... Just like education is given when one is young, and when one is old enough, he cannot take any education. The education, receptive faculty is there when one is young. Otherwise, he cannot take any education. What do you think?
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupada, I always thought, I always thought: "Later, later, I will. Later, later." But now I'm sixty-eight.
Prabhupada: (laughs) No, education, everywhere, all over the world, education is given when one is young. That is the time. I think here in America there is adult education?
Hrdayananda: But not so much. Some. That's usually for making more money. Someone has a job and he wants further training to get a higher-paying job, but not so much for knowledge.
Prabhupada: So, what is the next verse?
ko nv artha-trsnam visrjet
pranebhyo 'pi ya ipsitah
yam krinaty asubhih presthais
taskarah sevako vanik
"Money is so dear that one conceives of money as being sweeter than honey. Therefore, who can give up the desire to accumulate money, especially in household life? Thieves, professional servants, soldiers and merchants try to acquire money even..."
Prabhupada: Here is a very nice example. Soldiers. They know "We are going to give up our life." And what for? "Money." (laughs) They are prepared to give up life for money. Money is so sweeter than honey. (laughs) And thieves, they go at night for burglary. He knows that "If I trespass anyone's house, he can kill me immediately." But still he takes the risk for money. That is all explained here. What is the verse?
Hrdayananda: "Thieves, professional servants, soldiers and merchants try to acquire money even by risking their very dear lives."
Prabhupada: Merchants also. Formerly, merchants used to go from one country.... And now they also go, now. Facility of transport is easier. Formerly, they had to cross the big ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, waves, and many of them died. Still, for money, they used to go.
Hrdayananda: Still today, Prabhupada, many, for example, many big American merchants are being killed in the foreign countries by the Communists and so on. Its very risky still. Many American merchants are being killed in foreign countries.
Gopavrndapala: Many people also, they are collecting money all throughout this life, but they don't use it for their own sense gratification, yet they leave it for their children and they think in this way: "My children will enjoy, and then all my work had some value."
Prabhupada: Hm. Yes. Where he is going he does not know. He's thinking of his grandchildren. This is called maya.
Dr. Wolfe: That is also attachment to the material world, because he wants to be thought of.
Prabhupada: Yes. There are different symptom of material attachment. He does not know who is the rascal coming as my grandchild, but he is making bank balance for them.
Dr. Wolfe: Yeah. He wants to be remembered.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Sometimes he has no wife; still, he thinks of grandchild.
Gopavrndapala: They say that is the goal of life, if I can be remembered by others after I leave.
Prabhupada: It doesn't matter where he is going. That is maya.
Dr. Wolfe: I think, Prabhupada, here the idea comes into "My children, my grandchildren" as if they were his.
Prabhupada: Aham mameti [SB 5.5.8]. This is in Sanskrit, or, you know, aham mameti. Aham means I, and mama means mine. This is the illusion. Ato grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittair janasya moho 'yam aham mameti [SB 5.5.8]. Gradually.... First of all, there is attraction, male and female, pumsah striya mithuni-bhavam etam. The whole material world existing on sex attachment. Pumsah means male, and striya means female. Their attachment. Even before marriage or unity, the attachment is there. Pumsah striya mithuni-bhavam etam tayor mithah. And when they actually unite, hrdaya-granthim ahuh, the hard knot in the heart, hard knot. Then after unity.... If, suppose one is married or united, then they want apartment, grha, then field. Formerly they used to earn money by producing food from the field. There was no factory. So ato grha-ksetra, then children, then friends, then accumulation of money, ato grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittaih [SB 5.5.8]. With all these things, the conception of "I" and "mine" increases, and he becomes entangled.
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupada, is it not so that so-called marital love and parental love is possessive?
Prabhupada: You call it any love, the real idea is how to unite man and woman, that's all. That is the idea. Real, basic principle is how to unite a man and woman. It goes on as friend or husband and wife or this or that. The real purpose is they want to unite. And that unity is for sex. And then both of them become entangled. Grha-ksetra-sutapta-vittair janasya moho 'yam [SB 5.5.8]. This is moha, illusion. What is that explanation?
Hrdayananda: Purport: "How money can be dearer than life is indicated in this verse. Thieves may enter the house of a rich man to steal money at the risk of their lives. Because of trespassing they may be killed by guns or attacked by watchdogs, but still they try to commit burglary. Why do they risk their lives? Only to get some money. Similarly, a professional soldier is recruited into the army, and he accepts such service, with the risk of dying on the battlefield, only for the sake of money. In the same way, merchants go from one country to another on boats at the risk of their lives, or they dive into the water...
Prabhupada: In 1942 I have seen when war was going on, so, these Britishers wanted soldiers, so they created artificial famine. The people became in need of money, so they enrolled them as soldiers. I have seen it. There was no other way to get money to get commodities at higher price. Artificial famine. There was no food grains available, but black market it is available. Black market means more price, but they had no money. So to get this money, they enrolled as soldiers. This was Mr. Churchill's policy.
Radhavallabha: That's going on now in America. Previously they had to force men to join the Army because they had such a shortage. Now, because there are so few jobs, it is harder to get into the Army. Even volunteers, there are so many volunteers just to get a job that they have too many practically.
Prabhupada: Even in Army there is no service? They don't want?
Radhavallabha: Now they want because they can't get a job.
Hrdayananda: More selective.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Hrdayananda: But the Army is now more selective who they will accept.
Radhavallabha: Previously they had to force thousands; now they are practically having to turn men away because they are joining the Army just get some money.
Hari-sauri: I used to have a friend that was in the Merchant Navy. He was working on oil tankers. So he would only go on the runs to Vietnam. The oil tankers were always in danger of being blown up, so they had to pay them twice as much as any other job just to simply go to Vietnam, and then he would get a huge bonus as well. So he would only work on those jobs.
Prabhupada: So the modern civilization, there is no program for peaceful, happy life. Things are becoming more and more problematic. Everywhere. Here our Kirtanananda Maharaja is asking everyone to go to his New Vrindaban. There is no problem. We have seen yesterday pictures of our New Vrindaban. There is no problem. Practical. If you can see the picture, you'll see that they have no problem. Is there any problem?
Radhavallabha: Sometimes there is too much milk.
Prabhupada: (laughter) Huh? That he can send to us. Milk is so nice that it cannot be wasted, even a drop. First of all you get milk, that is the Indian system. So there is a big milk pan, and as soon as the milk is drawn it is put into the pan. The pan is in the fire. So as much as you like, drink milk, children, elderly persons. Then at night, when there is no demand for milk, it is converted into yogurt, not wasted. Whatever balance milk is there is converted into yogurt. Then in daytime also you take yogurt, as much as you like. If it is not all consumed, then it is stored in a pot. Then when that pot is enough stored, then you churn it. Churn it, and you get butter and Buttermilk. So again you take buttermilk with capati and everything, not a single drop is lost. Then the butter, you melt it, convert into ghee and store it, it will stay for years. So not a drop of milk can be wasted. And this butter, because in the village they are eating so much milk products, they do not require butter or ghee. Maybe little, so that is stored. They go to the city. The city men they require, especially. Ghee is very important thing in the city. So they purchase. So in exchange of that money, whatever they want, they purchase in the city and come back. But the simply maintaining the cows, their economic problem is solved. Simply maintaining the cows. And to maintain cow there is no difficulty. The boys.... Just like Krsna, as boy, was taking the cows, the calves, in the fields. They are grazing here and there, and coming back they're giving milk. Only one attendant required to take them into the pasturing ground and bring them back home. You don't require to give them food even. Simply take care, they give milk, and with milk you make so many preparations. Yes?
Dr. Wolfe: Last year, I drove with Svarupa Damodara through Texas on the way to Atlanta, and I thought so much.... We watched those thousands and thousands of cattle, only beef cattle, only for slaughtering, not one milk cow anymore. And I was so acutely aware of what I had learned from you.
Prabhupada: They do not know the civilized way of life. They are still barbars, called?
Devotees: Barbarians.
Prabhupada: Barbians, ah, barbarians. In the jungle, the barbarians, they do not know how to produce food, how to utilize milk. They can kill animals. That is also not like this, by machine you kill thousands of cows. They did not know this. For their simple eating they might have killed some animals, not particularly cow. Perhaps they were not killing cows because they were getting milk. Other, nonimportant animals. But what is this civilization? I learned that in South Africa, before killing the cows, they take the last drop of milk, and then it is sent to the slaughterhouse. They are so expert that if there is still little milk, take it before her death. Is that civilization, that you are taking milk...? So Vedic civilization is as you are drinking milk from the cow, she's your mother. Actually she's mother. But what is this civilization, killing mother? Hm? Is that civilization? Take from mother whatever she can deliver up to the last drop of milk, and then kill her. Advanced civilization, scientific. Killing scientifically. This is not civilization.
Hari-sauri: And just to emphasize it, they deliberately moved the Indian community next to the slaughterhouse.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Because they know they don't like cow killing.
Devotee: Where?
Hari-sauri: In South Africa.
Prabhupada: The Indian quarters near their slaughterhouse, and the animals screaming like anything whole night, and they have to hear it. The real purpose is that the Indians may go out.
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupada, who does that?
Prabhupada: In South Africa.
Dr. Wolfe: The government?
Devotee: Yes.
Dr. Wolfe: It's barbarian.
Prabhupada: Hm. I was in South Africa in, what is that city?
Hrdayananda: Johannesburg.
Prabhupada: Johannesburg. From the downtown, the Indian quarters about ten miles or fifteen miles away. Indian.... African, black quarters, they are not allowed even to enter the city. They require a pass. If any black man enters the city without that passport, he will immediately be taken to police. The bus for the black man is different from the white man. I think Indians also they have got separate bus. But the bus in which the white men travel, the Indians and the black men are not allowed. Gandhi tried to adjust this injustice, but he failed. Then with determination he went to India, that "I must drive away the Englishmen." These South African white men, mostly they are Englishmen and Dutchmen. Originally, they were Englishmen and Dutchmen.
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupada, the strange thing is that the fiercest racists in South Africa are the Boers, the Afrikaners...
Prabhupada: That is Englishmen, Dutchmen, Dutchmen.
Dr. Wolfe: ...who were put down by the British before, and now they are the worst oppressors themselves.
Prabhupada: These Dutchmen, Englishmen and Frenchmen were the pioneers of colonization. Spaniards also, Spanish. In America mostly the Englishmen came?
Hrdayananda: Yes. English and French.
Prabhupada: French.
Hrdayananda: Mostly English.
Prabhupada: The Germans were not for colonization.
Dr. Wolfe: They were before World War I. They lost their colonies at the end of World War I. They lost Cameroon and Togo and East Africa. That is where Nairobi is now; Nairobi was German before.
Hrdayananda: Not so many colonies like the others.
Dr. Wolfe: Hm, they had quite a few, quite a few.
Prabhupada: The Englishmen they have lost their colonies, all.
Hrdayananda: Yes. Even now England they can no longer control.
Prabhupada: Hm? (laughs)
Hrdayananda: They can no longer control England. They are having fights between the labor and management. They cannot control it.
Prabhupada: Why? What is the difficulty?
Hari-sauri: Communists.
Hrdayananda: No, between the laborers and the management. They are having great, always strikes, and the British industry is becoming crippled.
Prabhupada: And there is another problem, Irish problem. The Irish men, they are dropping bombs in London, in daytime. Creating always disturbance.
Gopavrndapala: I was in London just recently, and in the airport, where we distribute books, you cannot put your bag of books down because the police will come, hold you, and say, "You have a bomb in your bag." You must always keep it on your shoulder. And there are signs about every fifty feet, saying "Do not leave luggage unattended" because they are thinking anything which is unattended is a possible bomb.
Prabhupada: London airport is very congested.
Gopavrndapala: Yes, very.
Prabhupada: Very, very congested. Always thousands and thousands of men. If there is any such bomb explosion.... Life is becoming more and more insecure. The advancement of civilization is no relief for these other problems.
Hrdayananda: Prahlada Maharaja has said that their solution is bringing more problem.
Prabhupada: Yes. In order to solve one problem, more problems.
Dr. Wolfe: Prabhupada, am I right when I say the only solution is a change of consciousness?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is real solution. So we shall now go?
Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Hari-sauri: Someone can distribute that. Can someone bring those books? (end)

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