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Conversation at House of
Ksirodakasayi dasa

July 25, 1976, London
(kirtana in background)
Jayatirtha: ...was sitting previously, which was being worshiped at this place. So he sat down because he was thinking that he was good as standing up, same as standing up. So one Vaisnava priest who was taking care of the place, he threw him out. So in the book they complained that the Vaisnavas are considered to be very narrow-minded (laughter). Now I can understand...
Prabhupada: Here. He was kicked out.
Jayatirtha: Yes, the boy threw him out. So they were complaining about this.
Prabhupada: Just see. How bogus he was. No, when I go to met in Hollywood that, in the beginning that Prabhavananda, the rascal said that "Ramakrishna was formerly Caitanya Mahaprabhu." He began like that. Then I could understand "What a rascal he is, and I have to waste my time." So I did not answer anything. I said, "Thank you very much for your meeting," and I went out. This Ramakrishna rascal's first proposal was that Ramakrishna Thakura was formerly Caitanya. This is beginning. He was so rascal. (pause) (sounds of massage?) This is framework house. If some of the swamis may have said, they say that "Why you call us rascal and so many things?" So you say that "We are not calling you. Krsna says. So we are pushing Krsna consciousness. So we have to repeat what Krsna has said. That's it. We cannot help it. Krsna says na mam duskrtino mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. So you are not Krsna conscious; therefore you must be mudha."
Jayatirtha: The best thing Krsna has to say about them is that they are abuddhayah. The best thing Krsna says about them is they are unintelligent. Avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah [Bg. 7.24].
Prabhupada: Abuddhayah, no intelligence. And similarly, those who are demigod-worshipers, they have been described, nasta-buddhayah, "lost of intelligence." These are statements in the Bhagavad-gita. We are preaching Krsna consciousness; we have to say. How we can avoid this? It may be displeasing to you, but we are not... (laughter)
Ksirodakasayi: We are not sorry. No, I mean to say the other party. But we have to say it.
Indian devotee (2): No, they all very pleased. They are all very pleased there. I say, when you can get off and Prabhupada again comes, take prasadam, you can get off on that. They are waiting, but they will not take prasada unless Prabhupada's... They are about, oh, about two hundred people nowadays. This temple here, all garden full?
Prabhupada: Yes. So they liked, but I spoke very strong thing against Ramakrishna.
Ksirodakasayi: Because you spoke the truth, facts.
Prabhupada: And I challenged that "Any question? Please come." Dr. Kapoor says that...
Indian man: O.B.L. Kapoor? Vrndavana...
Prabhupada: Vrndavana, yes. That "Bhaktivedanta Swami speaks as strongly as Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati was speaking." You know that?
Ksirodakasayi: Oh, yes. I met so many times. I understand also.
Prabhupada: He said that.
Jayatirtha: Very nice compliment.
Ksirodakasayi: He also said that "Srila Prabhupada is only one who has really taken the, his mission seriously."
Prabhupada: That is a fact. Of course, I don't say myself. That will not look good, but there is other... They, all my Godbrothers, realize it. "But he is only representative." Somebody, they frankly admit, and somebody do not.
Ksirodakasayi: I met... Some they are starting coming here to see how the things are. (laughs) They all came. Still they are coming. I think... Somebody said that Bon Maharaja came.
Prabhupada: He came here?
Ksirodakasayi: Not here. I mean in London. Not here, I never invite anybody, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: No, no. London he came?
Ksirodakasayi: Yes I heard. I don't know. Somebody was telling. And so many swamis, so many, from Vrndavana they are coming. Because many, many guests come, Prabhupada, in the weekend or during the day. They tell me that "Would you like to go? Some swami has come, some..." "Our swami is already here." (laughs)
Prabhupada: That's it.
Ksirodakasayi: They invite some invitation. They have had a big international religious conference in Millford a few weeks back, and all the professors, universities and big, big shark(?) have got... And I understand...
Prabhupada: Mudhas.
Ksirodakasayi: (laughs) Mudhas, yes. So I understand... Some of the friends said it was a big feast and all that, but there was nothing, Krsna consciousness. They never talk about the Lord. They were simply arguing each other, "I think so." (laughs)
Prabhupada: This is their business.
Ksirodakasayi: Big, big professor from the university, from Glasgow, so many professors. Big pamphlet came to me. They all sent to... They sent it to this place here. I don't know from where they get the address or the name all that, and they sent, many, many of these new societies. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Keep our standard. Then everyone will give assistance.
Ksirodakasayi: We got many times, many visitors here. One time that church come here to see how things are. Chinese people came, Englishmen. One of the lady, not very far from here, she came one morning, said "My brother is in the hospital, and he is very sick. I know you are a pious people. Can you pray for him?" And "You pray the Lord. You come here. Lord is here." And...
Prabhupada: Chant Hare Krsna.
Ksirodakasayi: Chant Hare Krsna. Not very far from here. Said, "We hear the noise in the morning, and we have got these feelings that these are very good thing."
Jayatirtha: Oh, this was an English person who came.
Ksirodakasayi: English, yes. She is feeling in the heart.
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Ksirodakasayi: I... We can. By your grace, Krsna is here, and we have no intention to come from there. I had intention that let the children go back home. And we fight, all this stuff. I say, "All right, we must start to fully educate him." Full education is that he become advanced in the Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Ksirodakasayi: So I said "We haven't got any education." Under the law of this country, if they have to remain here, they have to go up to sixteen years to the school.
Prabhupada: No, education is good, but the association is...
Ksirodakasayi: No, they don't have any asso... They don't go anywhere. They don't eat anywhere. Even so many invitations come, either they go to the library or they go to the temple or this place. They have no friends, nothing else. They don't even take the water anywhere, even to my brother's house. They don't take anywhere.
Prabhupada: Your brother is also here?
Ksirodakasayi: Yes, he's here. And he was not very good terms last eight years with me. But when I established this temple, by your grace, Prabhupada, he has also realized it now that this is good. And my difference with him was that "You should give up this nonsense of drinking this, all these things." That was only..., nothing else, about money or anything. I say, "I cannot eat at your place unless you give up these things." I go there, don't eat anything.
Prabhupada: Still, he drinks.
Ksirodakasayi: Still he drinks. That is the fact. He doesn't eat meat, of course, but he says... He has got good business, plenty of money. I am poor materially, but my father, spiritual father, is so rich that I am getting money every day. Materially, I am poor, but I am so richer, you are giving so treasure... You see in our library there each and every of your book downstairs, and more we read, we say, well plenty money is... [break] ...from the temple. Life member comes there, sell the Gujarati magazine. I bought all magazines from Gujarati. Now second issue has not come. The same problem.
Prabhupada: This is, have printed.
Ksirodakasayi: But whatever I brought, it went within two, three weeks.
Prabhupada: So Yasomatinandana?
Ksirodakasayi: (Hindi) ...that "The next issue is in the press, and I'll soon send." And Gopala dasa I also written. Because there are many Gujaratis here, and they are becoming life members... They are helping very much. Anybody comes here, we send out to the Manor. I say, "Here Krsna is... Here we are. Here we have got everything by Krsna's grace, and all the help should go to this center."
Prabhupada: You are preparing something of bitter melon?
Ksirodakasayi: Bitter? You mean the...
Prabhupada: Karelas, yes.
Ksirodakasayi: (Hindi) [break]
Harikesa: How much is left?
Ksirodakasayi: No, no, we just starting it. Prabhupada approved that, starting, starting with two chapters three times.
Prabhupada: No, you can do one thing. Part by part, you publish in the Bhagavata-darsana so that he can, everyone can see how it is. Then it will be good.(?)
Ksirodakasayi: Oh, yes. No, I showed to Gopala Krsna Prabhu when he came here. He also came here. He came one day here, so I showed all these and I read little bit.
Prabhupada: Gopala Krsna himself is not very expert.
Ksirodakasayi: No. So I said that "Srila Prabhupada is coming now," so if you get a chance...
Prabhupada: No, I mean to say that whatever you have written, let it be published in the... So that everyone can see. Then we can understand.
Ksirodakasayi: So I will send to India chapter by chapter, and they can publish...
Prabhupada: With a letter that "Prabhupada says like this, that you print in the Hindi edition of Bhagavata-darsana so that everyone will see, and will judge how it is done nicely."
Harikesa: Should I make this?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ksirodakasayi: I'll send first chapter complete.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ksirodakasayi: Duplicate it and keep one copy with me here and one copy send off, and they can publish in the Back to Godhead here.
Prabhupada: The difficulty is that in India, in different parts of India different standard. Somebody says, "This standard is good"; somebody says, "This standard is good."
Ksirodakasayi: Well, we are not worried about the criticism.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Ksirodakasayi: We are not worried about the criticism, anybody say. What you say we'll take that one line, the guide line.
Prabhupada: No, I am not authority in Hindi, but this Hindi, different parts of India, a different standard.
Ksirodakasayi: Yes, that's true. That is why I had not depend on myself. It going from the four people different, one after another, and they are qualified Sanskrit and Hindi scholars.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Let it be published.
Ksirodakasayi: Complete corrections also. It's not going by...
Prabhupada: So you can show me some samples which you have completed. Yes, you can show me some.
Ksirodakasayi: Srila Prabhupada, devotees are asking can you take prasada and go to manor? There's some press coming, but without you they're... Is it all right?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. All right. I will take some time. I ordered...
Harikesa: Others, they are also waiting. Indians, they...
Prabhupada: So let them all take. You can also go down. [break] (Prabhupada moves outside)
Indian woman: ...and translate into English.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Do it. You do. Give him the book. Simply book. Why you are taking the...? Yes. (Indian man speaking in Hindi about "Nature, the Enjoyer and Consciousness" for several minutes)
Indian man (2): (Hindi) Should I read the translation in Hindi?
Prabhupada: Yes, so that...
Ksirodakasayi: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: You can explain this. Yes.
Ksirodakasayi: (Hindi)
Krsna has spoken about the ksetrajna. Ksetrajna means the knower of the body, as He has already explained, that "I know that this is my finger." I never say, "I finger." So this body is ksetrajna, the field of activities, and the soul is the proprietor or worker within the body. That is called ksetrajna. This is already explained. He tried to explain... Because there are many ladies, so he tried to explain in Hindi. So here in the next verse Krsna says, ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi: "I am also ksetrajna. I am also one of the knower of the body." So what is the difference between the one ksetrajna already explained, the soul, and this ksetrajna, Krsna? What is the difference between the two? That is explained here. Krsna says that "I am also ksetrajna."Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata: "But the distinction is that the individual soul is situated in that particular body, but I am situated in every body, all-pervading." Sometimes they commit mistake that atma and Paramatma, they are the same, but that is not the fact. Here Krsna explains very distinctly that "I am also atma, but I am Paramatma." That is the distinction between God and ourselves. When Arjuna understood Bhagavad-gita, he addressed Krsna, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Param brahma. They are anxious to realize Brahman, that I... aham brahmasmi. Aham brahmasmi does not mean that "I am Param Brahman." "I am individual part and parcel of Brahman." Similarly, atma, Paramatma; isvara, Paramesvara. We should understand this distinction between atma, Paramatma: Brahman, Parabrahman; isvara, Paramesvara. So in the Vedic literature it is said, isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. Isvara. Isvara means controller. Every one of us, we are controller, either I control over my family or in my office or in my country. In this way everyone is a controller. I may be a controller. Not may be. In my limited jurisdiction I am also controller. You are also controller. So I may be a little greater controller, you may be a smaller controller and somebody may be greater than me. So in this way, if you study controllers, different types of controllers, you'll find there is junior and senior. The same person is senior controller in the family, but in the office he's a junior controller. The same person is junior and senior at the same time. Somewhere he is junior, somewhere he is senior. In this way, if you study all different types of controller, you'll see there is duality of controls, but when you approach somebody that He's simply controllerHe's not controlled by othersthat is Krsna. This is analytical study of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So they have studied all these Vedic scholars, especially Lord Brahma. This is the statement of Lord Brahma. Not only Lord Brahma, Vyasadeva, Narada and recently big, big acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Visnu Svami, even Sankaracarya and latest, five hundred years ago, Lord Caitanyaeveryone has accepted Krsna as the supreme controller. And in the dictionary you'll find... What is religion? Religion means to accept a supreme controller. That is religion. So in the Srimad-Bhagavatam also it is said, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the controlling laws given by God. That is called dharma. So real dharma... From all Vedic scriptures, from the version of all authorities, it is confirmed that isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]: "Krsna is the supreme controller. Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead." So this Krsna consciousness movement means that we are presenting Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Every religion has conception of God, but no religious system in this world has got any clear conception of God. But in this Krsna consciousness movement it is not actually a so-called religious movement, but it is an educational movement to give information to the human society about God, that "Here is God." You are searching after God, and somebody, in disappointment saying that "God is dead." God is neither dead, nor it is fictitious, but it is factual, and here is this God, Krsna. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. This is the verdict of the Vedic literature. There may be many other gods. They are expansions of the original Personality of Godhead. If anyone is interested to study the science of God, you'll find it in the Vedic literature, how Krsna expands by His plenary portion in different names of God. It is confirmed in the Brahma-samhita, advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rupam [Bs. 5.33]. That Absolute Truth is advaita, without any duality; acyuta, infallible. Advaita, acyuta, anadi. Everything has got it's beginning, anything you... That is our material conception because we have got the experienceanything we take, it has got a beginning. But Krsna, He is described, advaita, acyuta, anadi: "He has no beginning." And in another place it is also said,
Karanam is the beginning. So just like my father is the cause of my personality; father, his father is the cause of his personality. In this way you try to find out the cause of the cause. You'll find Krsna as the cause of all causes. Sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1]. Everything must be caused by something. Cause and effect. So the sastra gives the verdict that Krsna is the cause of all causes.
So this institution, Krsna consciousness movement, we have started. Now we have opened this center. I am very glad that you are coming here, but study the science of Krsna. Don't remain blind. The science of Krsna means science of God. The human life is meant for understanding the science of God. Athato brahma jijnasa. This is the Vedanta-sutra. "This human form of life is meant for inquiring about the Absolute TruthBrahman." That Brahman, Parabrahman, is Krsna. Therefore, when Arjuna studied Bhagavad-gita, his conclusion was... He addressed immediately, "Krsna," param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. Bhavan. "Yourself..." So don't waste your time even by a minute. Try to understand the science of Krsna. That is the only business. Other business, they are subsidiary. They are not very important business. Why Krsna understanding is important business? Because it will give you liberation from this material condition life. We are foolishly thinking we are very independent, we can do whatever we like, but that is not the fact. The fact is we are completely dependent on the laws of material nature. Even if you defy a little bit, immediately you'll be punished. That is the strict laws of nature. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. So we do not understand. There is no education throughout the whole world how we are being controlled by the material nature and why we are being controlled. Why we are put into this position of being controlled? These questions should be raised. That is human life. Otherwise it is animal life. The cats and dogs, they cannot inquire, "Why I am being controlled?" But they agree to be controlled. But human life there is struggle. They are called struggle for existence. They are trying to overcome the control of material nature by so-called scientific method, but that is not the way. You cannot do that. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. Just like their so-called scientific way. They are trying to go to the moon planet or Mars planet. Why they are trying to go? Because they are controlled. They have got their flying machine. They can to go any planet, but they cannot because they are being controlled. So we should come to our senses that we cannot bring the laws of material nature under our control. We are already under the control of the laws of material nature, and that is our conditional life. Actually, we require freedom from conditional life, but that freedom can be achieved when we surrender to Krsna.
If you actually want to be not to be controlled by the laws of material nature, that you can do. That is possible. And that is possible simply by understanding Krsna. So we are presenting this philosophy of Krsna consciousness. It is not a manufactured thing. We are quoting from Bhagavad-gita the same thing. We are not presenting something manufactured. There is no need, because things in perfection is already there in the Bhagavad-gita. There is no need of manufacturing by fools and rascals. There is no need. Everything is there in perfection. Simply we have to accept it and apply it in practical life. Then our life will be successful. Simply we have to understand it. Krsna says that janma karma ca me divyam yo janati tattvatah [Bg. 4.9]. Simply to understand Krsna as He is... Then janati tattvatah, anyone who is able to understand Krsna in truth, then what is the result? The result is tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya: [Bg. 4.9] "Such person, after giving up this body, he does not accept another material body." At the present moment we are giving up one material body and accepting another material body. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. This is our conditional life, but we are kept in such dense darkness of knowledge that we are thinking that "We are free. We can do whatever we like." This is very dangerous civilizationno knowledge of the spiritual life, no knowledge how the soul is transmigrating from one body to another, no knowledge what is the future, no knowledge what is the goal of life. Simply like cats and dogs, you dance, eat, drink, be merry and die, that's all. This is not good life. You must be very serious, especially those who are Indians. They should take it very seriously. Because this Krsna culture, Bhagavad-gita, was spoken in the Battlefield of Kuruksetra in India, and we Indians, we do not take full advantage of this great transcendental knowledge, then you are committing suicide. So my request is, all the Indians who are here in this foreign country, keep your own original culture. Don't forget. Don't be bewildered. Be in your position. Try to under... It is very easy. Bhagavad-gita is not at all difficult to understand, and we have tried to explain as easy as possible, not that we have deviated from the original verse, just like others do it. We do not do that; there is no need. That is another blunder. We keep Bhagavad-gita as it is, and we still try to explain it. So I am very glad that you are all coming regularly, but take it. At least one day, this Sunday, you devote, seriously studying Bhagavad-gita, and discuss amongst you whenever there is any doubt. There cannot be any doubt. The Bhagavad-gita verses are so plainly explained, and... Just like here is one verse. We are trying to read. Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata: "My dear Arjuna..." Arjuna is addressed as Bharata. Because he belongs to the dynasty of Bharata, sometimes he's addressed as Bharata. So, very easy, that "I am also one of the souls. There are two souls. One, you are, and another, I am. So what is the difference between you and me?" That you know simply everything, not everything, but to some extent, about your body, but I know everything of everyone's body. That is the difference. I know the pleasure and pains of my body, you know the pleasure and pains of your body, but Krsna knows the pleasure and pains of your body and pleasure and pains of my body. That is the difference between Krsna and ourself. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. Krsna is situated... Krsna is not stereotyped in one place. Krsna, He is in Goloka Vrndavana. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhutah [Bs. 5.37]. That is Krsna. I am sitting here; you are sitting here. I am not in my apartment, but Krsna, although He is sitting in this temple, He is present everywhere. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham [Bs. 5.35]. In this way we have to study Krsna very scientifically, and the books are there, and we have tried to explain as far as possible. Take advantage of this institution. Don't waste a moment of your life. Take it very seriously. Ayusah ksana eko 'pi na labhyah svarna-kotibhih. Take seriousness... Especially those who are educated, they should take serious consideration of this Krsna consciousness movement. Try to understand each and every verse of Bhagavad-gita, especially, and, if possible, Bhagavatam. There are so many books. We have got program to publish at least eighty-four books like this, four hundred pages each. So we have already published fifty-four books. So if you want to understand Krsna through science and philosophy, read these books. Otherwisevery easy methodcome here; chant Hare Krsna. That's all. There is no difficulty. Thank you very much. (end)

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