May 17, 1975, Perth
Paramahamsa: Well he's a very..., actually he's a big man and therefore he's very busy. In their terms he's a big man. He had a lot of seminars yesterday taking him up late at night working. I'll send him something to read. [break] ...problem. As he sees it, the biggest problem is that the industrial civilization, the big companies and consumer society, are taking the natural resources at such a pace that they are causing pollution and they are causing in the future a great scarcity of certain products, and, in other words, he thinks they're ruining the earth.
Srutakirti: He said, "irreparable damage." They'll never be able to again restore what they've taken.
Paramahamsa: So he's very perplexed by the future, say, a hundred years from now, what will happen if we go on at the rate we're going, taking natural resources.
Prabhupada: Just like they are taking petrol. This is natural resources. They are taking continually.
Paramahamsa: But he says the CSIRO, most of the people there are involved in researching how to exploit the natural resources more. So he's a little bit different because he's trying to present a clear warning that this is happening. But then again he doesn't have any potency to stop it. It seemed that when you were speaking to him he related bodily consciousness with the selfishness of the industrialists when they're exploiting natural resources like that.
Prabhupada: They are doing so many things. They are killing cows for their own benefit. So many animals they are killing. Birds.
Srutakirti: Yeah, he was making a claim that he was against this because all these cows are in the central part of Australia and just by their walking they're causing the topsoil to become loosened and taken by the wind. So he was against all this mass slaughtering. But at the same time, he's eating meat. Also he was saying how everyone is interested in making the fast dollar, the... [break]
Paramahamsa: The industrialists and technologists say that they will keep using and using and using, and when they run out they will invent something else to take the place. When they run out of oil then they will use sun energy or some other energy. And whenever they say that they're running out of something, they say, "Oh, we'll invent something, and we'll do something to arrange it."
Prabhupada: Why they are thinking of the future? And they do not think of themself that whether he was going to be a cat and dog. He is thinking of industrial resources future and not for himself.
Srutakirti: It shows that it's a natural tendency to think about the future.
Prabhupada: Is there, certainly.
Srutakirti: Yes. But because they are in ignorance they have to think of so many other things for the future, and they're not thinking of themselves.
Prabhupada: No, no, in future if you become a shrub like this, what you are going to do for that? This may be also your future. Now there are so many hells for different kinds of sinful activities. Everything is described.
Paramahamsa: I was reading in the Bhagavad-gita last night. In Chapter Two there was a verse where it says, "Of the existent, there is no cessation, and the nonexistent, there is no continuation," something like that. But in the purport it says that one can understand the Supreme by studying himself. What does that mean? By analytical study of oneself one can understand the Supreme.
Prabhupada: So you could not understand? You have got all propensities, different, the similar propensities are there in God. Because you are part and parcel of God, the chemical composition in drop of water from the sea is the same. In the sea it is in bigger quantity, and in the drop in smaller quantity. And therefore your composition you can study, and the same things are there. Therefore He is a person. He is person.
Prabhupada: No. This is my interpretation. He is also creating; you are also creating. You can create a motorcar and He can create a huge, gigantic sun globe. The same process. As you are controlling the aeroplane by air condition or by controlling the air, similarly all these planets are there. It is by His plan it is moving with the air. Big, big planets, there is no question of gravitation. That is nonsense. It is by His arrangement it is moving in the air. Just like big, big cloud containing millions of tons of water floating in the air. How it is being done? Eh? Millions of tons of water are floating in the air. That we see daily. So similarly, all these planets are floating by His arrangement. Not only floating. Making center that polestar, all the planets are moving around it, even the sun. So it is by His arrangement.
Srutakirti: So the sun is the center or the polestar?
Srutakirti: Is the center of the universe.
Prabhupada: Not in the center. Sun is in the center, the polestar in the extreme north. [break]
Srutakirti: You were saying yesterday how foolish it is to think that God is creating planets without putting any life on them. The scientists are saying there is no life on any planet. Then why would He create a planet unless there was life on it?
Prabhupada: All rubbish theory. Life is mentioned Bhagavad-gita, sarva-gah: "everywhere." And why these rascals say there is no life?
Paramahamsa: They want to see with telescope.
Prabhupada: This is nonsense, this telescope. That is their defect. They do not admit the imperfection of the senses. What we calculated? How many billions?
Srutakirti: To the sun?
Prabhupada: No, no, the length and breadth.
Srutakirti: Oh, it is four billion miles.
Prabhupada: Four billion miles. So how much the telescope can see? Can you see four billion miles? Eh? Where is the telescope? If you cannot see perfectly even ten miles, with telescope you can see, say, a hundred miles or something more, something, but can you see four billion miles?
Prabhupada: Then? What is the use of this telescope? (pause) Nothing will be finished. God's resources are unlimited, but they will be finished. Making research, research, they will be finished. God's resources will not be finished, but they will be finished. Unnecessarily they have created necessities of life. In this way, in blind capacity, they... After fifty years where this big geographist is going? He does not know. And he is thinking what will happen hundred years.
Srutakirti: He's thinking that in a few hundred years the resources will be used up. He doesn't... He's thinking the resources will be used up.
Prabhupada: But before that, you will be finished, so why you are anxious?
Paramahamsa: He's worrying about the civilization.
Prabhupada: Civilization, but you will be finished. You will not take part in the civilization. You have no belief in the next birth. So why you are thinking like that? You will be finished, that's all. Why you are worried? Suppose I have come here for three weeks. If I simply think, "What will happen hundred years after I am in Australia?" What is my business? I will go away by three weeks. Why shall I bring so much thoughts about "What will happen, Australia, hundred years after"? You are going to be cats and dogs or something, or grass or anything else. But you will be finished. Then why you are anxious for Australia?
Paramahamsa: This is my country.
Prabhupada: What is your country? You will be kicked out after some years, that's all. Where is your country? You cannot stay in your country. First of all you make sure that it is country. Where is your country? I have come here for three weeks. Shall I consider it is my country?
Paramahamsa: Your country is India; our country is Australia.
Prabhupada: No, no. Anywhere, I come here for three weeks or some three years or some three hundred years. What are these in comparison to the eternal time? So why I am thinking like that, "my country, your country, this country"? Everyone will be kicked out: "Get out." You country will stay here permanently. This is called fourth-class man.
Srutakirti: It is like that woman you speak about. She goes into the marketplace: "How will I feed all these men?" (laughs)
Prabhupada: Only she is anxious: "Oh, so many men. Where shall I keep them? Where shall I give them food?" And in the evening her son brought him (her)—everything is finished. Everything is finished by the evening. Nobody in the market. And she was very much anxious "How to feed them? How to keep them?" It is like that.
Paramahamsa: But even if we can't stay here, we all have to die, our sons and their sons, if we do something now, then maybe they won't have to suffer so much in the future.
Prabhupada: So why you are thinking of your son's future, your grandson's... Why don't you think of your future?
Paramahamsa: It makes me happy to think that they'll be happy.
Prabhupada: That is madness. That is madness.
Paramahamsa: If I get insurance policy then they will have some money after I go...
Prabhupada: No, no, that is natural, that you think of future. But the foolishness is you don't think of your future. That is foolishness. This is natural. Because every living entity is eternal, therefore he has future. But for himself he is thinking, "There is no life, next." And he is thinking of the life which will come as his grandson or son, what will be their future. And he is blind about the own future. This is fourth-class man. Suppose some danger is coming. So shall I take care of you: "How you will be saved? How you will be saved?" How I will be saved—that is my first business. That he does not know. There have been many cases. There is all of a sudden fire. The man has left everything, and his baby was there. He was crying, "Oh, I have left my..." The natural tendency—"First of all save me." Self preservation is the first law of nature. So why did he forget about his baby? Now, when he comes out, he is thinking about baby. This is natural, that he does not think about himself; he is thinking about future generation.
"What nonsense will come as my son or grandson?" Just see. This is fourth-class man.
Amogha: So he should first save himself, then think about how to save others.
Prabhupada: Yes. First of all he must know what will actually saving. That he does not know. He is thinking of his country. Suppose next birth he becomes a cow and his countrymen will send him to the slaughterhouse. So what is the use of having your country? The same country, the national... The cow is also national, you are also national, but the law is the cow is to be sent to the slaughterhouse. Therefore they have been all described as mudhah, rascals, only rascals. Except a Krsna conscious person, all persons are rascals. Do you admit or not?
Prabhupada: Yes. It is authoritative statement of Krsna. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So these classes of men do not surrender to Krsna. So anyone who has not surrendered to Krsna, he comes within these categories. This is a plain description if we believe in Bhagavad-gita. All rascals.
Paramahamsa: But he would say, "There are many people also like me who... We don't harm anybody. We just live our own life, and..."
Prabhupada: But you harm yourself. Because you are a rascal you do not know what is your future. You do not harm others, but you are harming yourself. You do not know what you are and how you are harming yourself. You are such a rascal. You pose to be that you do not make any harm to anyone, but you are doing harm to yourself. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. You do not know what is the harm to yourself. You are such a fool. So what is the use of...? Nobody can do any harm to anyone. Everything is going on nature's law. But you are doing yourself harm for your interest. You are such a fool.
Paramahamsa: But I feel pretty happy. Everything seems to be... I have a good job.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, the ass also feels happy, dog also feels happy, so you are like ass, dog, like that. They also feel happy.
Paramahamsa: They don't go to cinema.
Prabhupada: This is not... There are many living entities in the cinema. There are ants, the lizards, rats. So what is the use of being in cinema? So you are also one of them, that's all. There are no rats in the cinema house? (laughter)
Amogha: At the drive-ins they also have birds.
Paramahamsa: But man has been progressing for so many years. Surely they can't all be bad.
Prabhupada: They are not progressing. They are rascals. What their meaning of progressing, these fourth-class men? That is our verdict, Krsna's verdict. What progress? If you have made progress, then you are thinking, "What will happen, future?" Where is your progress? You rest assured that "We have made so much progress. Now there will be no more problem." So why you have engaged so many so-called rascals again to solve the problems? Where is your advancement? If you are full of anxiety, then where is your happiness? Is anyone who is full of anxiety he is happy? Is he happy?
Paramahamsa: Well, not... But if he takes some intoxicant or he goes to cinema, then he feels better.
Prabhupada: You are adding rascal upon rascal. (laughs) They do not know. They are fools. They are rascals. The same philosophy: if you have got enemy in the front you close your eyes and he kills you. The rabbit, they do that. As soon as they find some big animal, they close.
Amogha: Ostriches stick their head in a hole in the ground.
Prabhupada: They are making real advancement. Bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. Their these material anxieties will be over. They are making advancement. Ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. By chanting Hare Krsna their dirty heart will be cleansed, and as soon as it is fully cleansed, the problems of material existence will be over. No more anxiety.
Paramahamsa: They seem happy, but... The devotees of Krsna seem happy, but they don't do much practical work. They always sing and dance and ask for some money. But they don't work any practical thing. We're doing so many practical things.
Prabhupada: Dancing is not working? And writing book is not working? Selling book is not working? What is working then? Hm? Like monkey jumping? Yes? That is working?
Amogha: But we are helping people practically like in the hospital or the alcoholics...
Prabhupada: No, what... How you are helping? Do you think if one goes to hospital he will not die? And how you are helping? You are thinking you are helping.
Amogha: But he lives longer.
Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. How long you will live? When the time of death comes, you will not live longer even by a moment. When a man is going to die, his life is finished. Can your injection, medicine, give one minute's life more? Is there any medicine?
Amogha: Well, there seems to be.
Amogha: Sometimes when they give medicine they live longer.
Paramahamsa: They say that by perfecting heart transplant they may make people live...
Prabhupada: They may say, they... Because we take them as rascals, why shall I take their words? We should consider them a rascals, that's all. (someone shouts nastily in background-Prabhupada barks at them) (laughter) Another rascal. He is enjoying life. So the world is full of rascals. We must be very much pessimistic, not at all optimistic of this world. Unless you become pessimistic, you will not be able to go back to home. If you have little attraction for this world—"It is good"—then you have to remain here. Yes. Krsna is so strict.
Paramahamsa: But Jesus said: "Love thy brother as thyself." So if we love our brother...
Prabhupada: That we are loving. We are giving Krsna consciousness. That is loving, real loving. We are giving him eternal life, eternal bliss. Unless we love them, why we are taking so much trouble? The preacher must love the people. Otherwise why he is taking? He can do it for himself at home. Why he is taking so much trouble? Why in eighty years old I have come here if I do not love? So who can love better than a preacher? He loves even the animals. Therefore they are preaching, "Don't take meat." Do they love the animals, rascals? They are eating, and they love their country, that's all. Nobody loves. It is simply sense gratification. If somebody loves, he is Krsna conscious, that's all. All rascals. They are after their own sense gratification, and they will put a signboard, "I love everyone." This is their business. And fools are accepting, "Oh, this man is very philanthropic." He does not love any man. He loves only senses. That's all. The servant of the senses, that's all.
Everyone is working because he is getting money. Where is the love? The minister, the prime minister, everyone, if they say, "No money, no salary," nobody will go. He takes the opportunity of taking money by bribe, by this way. Therefore they are: "I love your country. Elect me as president." That's all. What this president has done, Nixon? He has stolen so many things. So what is his love for the country?
Amogha: He was a bad one, but some of them are good.
Prabhupada: No, no, some... Everyone is bad. The man who is talking, he is also bad man. Everyone is bad man. Here there is no good man. Do you think in the prison house any good men go there? All criminals. So anyone who has come in this material world, he is a criminal. Therefore he is punished by this material body, simply suffering. Why you have covered? Because this body cannot tolerate this cold. So the body means suffering, material body. Anyone who has got this material body, he is suffering. Nobody is enjoying. (It) is a wrong idea. He is thinking... That is called maya. He is suffering, but he is thinking, "I am enjoying." This is called maya.
Paramahamsa: But the schoolteachers, and the church leaders, and my parents, and grandparents, they all seem to think that it's all right what we're doing, so...
Prabhupada: But because they are all rascals. Therefore we say all rascals. They may think like that, but our conclusion is anyone who is not Krsna conscious, he is a rascal. He may be my teacher or father or anyone. He is a rascal. That is stated in the Bhagavata. Pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat, gurur na sa syat, na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum. "One who cannot save me from the impending danger of birth, death, old age, and disease, he is not my father, he is not my teacher, he is not my guru, he is not my kinsman, he is not my wife, he is not my husband." So many list. So who has got this knowledge, how to save one from the cycle of birth, death, and old age? It is only we, Krsna conscious people. We are teaching. Stop your this cycle of repetition of birth, death, old age and disease. Come to eternal life and blissful life. So we are the only friends. All are enemies even in the shape of friend or father or teacher-enemies. They do not know the art.
What they will do? Suppose if you have got a very good father. If he does not know how to stop your gliding down to accept a dog's life, then what does he do simply by giving some food? And making a fatty dog?
Amogha: But if what you say is true, why don't more people know about it? There are so many teachers. There are spiritual teachers and...
Prabhupada: They will not know. That... These rascals say, "No, it will not be accepted." Just like yesterday they came, all the psychiatrists. As soon as we prescribed that "This is the prescription," they said, "Oh, it is impractical." I say that "Send your patients here. We shall make him instantly drugless." They will not accept it. "Oh, why not at home?" At home? And he will remain with the drug addict, and he will become drugless. Is it possible? The surrounding men, all drug addicts, and he will become drugless. How it is possible?
Amogha: Actually their hospital is a society where all the drug addicts get together.
Devotee (2): For a free cup of tea.
Prabhupada: Good society. The group... We gave reference from Bhagavad-gita, sangat sanjayate kamah. Association is required. Otherwise why we are opening so many centers? Just to give them the facility of association. These men are big rascals. The world is full of rascals, and the so-called leaders, they are big rascals, that's all. They cannot make any solution. Simply take salary. Sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. They are big rascals, and the small rascals accept them as leader. That's all.
Amogha: That is vox populi of the rascals.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. The whole world is rascal. Anyone who is not Krsna conscious, he is a rascal. Take it for granted. This is the test. That is stated in the Bhagavata, na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah [SB 7.5.31]. These rascals, they do not know what is his self-interest. He is simply enamored by the external energy and trying to make adjustment of things. Andha yathandhair upaniya... He is a rascal, and his leader is also rascal. Te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah. These rascals do not know they are bound up, hands and legs, by the laws of nature, and they are making solution, problem. Just like this geographer is making solution and all of a sudden will die. And then another rascal will come into that place to make solution. The problem will remain, and they will come and go. They will come and go. Napoleon came for solution, Hitler came for solution, Gandhi came for solution, but when Napoleon was offered a horse's urine instead of water, he could not make any solution.
When Gandhi was fired to death, he could not make a solution. And they were leaders for solution. What they can do? Every one of them is under strict laws of nature. As nature will do, they will have to submit. And what they will make? They are not independent. Nobody knows where is Hitler. Such a big man, he hid or he killed himself, something done, but nobody knows. And one day he become the master of the whole universe. This is going on.
Amogha: But maybe by our study... We are all imperfect, but if we keep compiling the information, then after so many years they will have all the information...
Prabhupada: They... You do not take the right information. Right information is with us. That you refuse to take. Your information is zero. Compiling of zeros does not make any value. It is all zero. Take information from us. Then it will be beneficial. You are taking information from all universe except our this solid information given by Krsna. That is your policy. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. You have read this verse? "The mudha, rascal, he does not know the ultimate background is I am." That he does not know. What is the use of his information? And in the Vedas it is said yam eva viditva sarvam idam... There is a mantra, that "Only understanding Krsna, you understand everything." Yam eva viditva sarvam idam veditum bhavanti.
Amogha: But how can we understand all this science and technology just by understanding Krsna, just by one book?
Prabhupada: Not one book. You cannot read them throughout your whole life, there are so many books.
Amogha: I don't think they have any argument.
Prabhupada: What argument? They are fools, rascals. What argument?
Amogha: Yesterday they did not know what to say.
Prabhupada: Yes. Nobody could say against me. Maunam samyati labdhah.(?) If they remain silent, that means they have accepted. I charge you that "You are thief," and if you don't protest, then you are thief. If you are not thief, immediately you will: "How you say? Why you have said?" There will be fight. But if you remains silent, that proves that you are thief. So they could not give us any counterargument. Therefore they accepted.
Amogha: Their biggest problem is that there isn't any counterargument.
Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as I told them, "Who is there without father?"
Amogha: Then they tried a little bit. They said, "Everyone has a father, so who's God's father?"
Prabhupada: That I answered, that "That is God."
Amogha: Then they were defeated.
Prabhupada: God means that without father, He can, He will exist. That is God. That is the difference between you and God.
Amogha: How can darkness argue with the sunlight? Their trying to argue is just like darkness trying to argue with the sunlight.
Prabhupada: And that Burmese said, "We don't believe in God." And you don't believe in God. You don't... Why you believe Lord Buddha? He is God.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but you worship Buddha. Why?
Amogha: Because he spoke about nirvana. In Burma many people are Buddhist. They say they are Buddhist.
Prabhupada: Till now, 2,600 years past from the Buddhist community, from other groups and Arabia, very big religionist or philosophers has come. They are all in darkness. It was for the time being. The Buddhist religion was for the time. Atheist class men... (end)