Sri Govinda: They would like to interview you and tape record possibly for using in one of their magazines.

Prabhupada: Jayatirtha, you can come here. If required, you will reply. What is that?

Jayatirtha: This is the article that Mrs. Wax has written, and it was published in Harper's. It's one of the big national magazines. It's about Gurukula.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Jayatirtha: It's nicely written.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Jayatirtha: It's called "Raise Your Hand if You're an Eternal Spirit Soul."

Prabhupada: Oh.

Mrs. Wax: Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Because I wrote the article about Gurukula, I'm interested in what has happened there. I was there last summer. Do you have plans for other schools? And what is happening with Gurukula now? Is it standing?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Jayatirtha: She wants to know what our plan is for Gurukula, whether we want to start other Gurukulas in other places... (child noises)

Prabhupada: (Aside:) Hmm, this child... So you can explain what is the idea of Gurukula.

Jayatirtha: (indistinct) ...talking of other things. Generally he likes to address more philosophical questions.

Mrs. Wax: All right.

Jayatirtha: Because the questions about the future of the society. Others devotees can answer this. Well, the philosophical questions that are not daily (indistinct).

Prabhupada: We want to raise first-class man. Try to understand. The present society, we are creating fourth-class men. Therefore we are not in very happy condition. We want to raise the fourth-class man to first-class man. First-class man means with qualification who can control the mind, control the senses, always very cleansed and truthful, very simple, full of all kinds of knowledge, practical application in life, then to have full knowledge of God, these are the characteristics of first-class man. So at the present moment everyone is a fourth-class man. So we want to get some first-class men. That is required. Because there is no idea, first-class man, therefore people are becoming full of crimes. You have seen the article in the Time? "Crime, Why and What to Do?" That is the concern of the materialistic society. So we are trying to raise a group of men who will be ideal. Just like our devotees. You will find their characters different from all others, at least in your country. They do not have illicit sex, they do not eat meat, they do not have any intoxication, even smoking or taking tea, they do not indulge in gambling, they chant holy name of God, lead very simple life. So we are creating first-class men. There is need. It is not that everyone will become first-class man, but at least a section of man must be first-class so that others can see that what is the ideal character of man. So this Gurukula means from the childhood age we are training them so that in future it will be easier. That is the purpose of Gurukula.

Mrs. Wax: The four natural divisions... I understand that at Vrndavana, that that will be an example to American society, but how can the four natural divisions of man be translated into American society?

Prabhupada: It has to be. If you don't, then you must suffer with all these criminals. That is natural. Just like in your body there is head, and there is arm, and there is belly, and there is leg. The head is the most important part. Why? Why not all legs? Why there are different divisions? Similarly, in the human society, if we want to make it perfect, there must be head, there must be arm, there must be belly, there must be legs. So leg can walk, but leg cannot do the work of brain. So at the present moment we have got all walking men, no brain. Therefore the society is in chaotic condition. There is no brain in the society. That is the defect of modern civilization. In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated, catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. According to quality and work, there are four divisions. (aside:) You can push it back. Four divisions. So similarly, four divisions must be there: a group of men, first-class; a group of men, administrators; a group of men, food producer; and a group of men, general worker. So the brain is the chief. If your body... There are other parts, but if your head is cut off, then what is the use of other parts? If your hand is cut off, you can live. If your leg is cut off, you can live. But if your head is cut off, then finished. So that is lacking in the present society, no brain how to guide, so that whole human... If the brain is there, then it can guide. It can ask the hand to work in a certain way, the leg to work in certain way, to eat in a certain way. Then the health of the whole body will be quite competent. But if there is no brain, then everything... Just like a man becomes mad when the brain is not working.

Mrs. Wax: Who will decide what the propensities are, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Jayatirtha: Who is to decide whether a person is first-class, if they are a brahmana or whether they are ksatriya or vaisya?

Prabhupada: The book of knowledge. You can read Bhagavad-gita. Find out, samah damah titiksa.

Prabhupada: This is first-class. Now samo damah... Samah means controlling the mind, mind is always peaceful. You can train. Then controlling the senses. Then truthful. Then full of knowledge, practical application of knowledge in life. These are the qualification of first-class man. Everything is there. If you train a boy to become first-class man, he can become first-class man. If you don't train, then he will become a debauch, criminal, disturbing. So we are training in the Gurukula to become first-class men. This is our aim. Unless in the society an ideal first-class man, then how one will become, or follow the ideal? There is no ideal. Now what is the idea of first-class man now? Can I ask you? What is your idea of first-class man? Whom do you call first-class man?

Jayatirtha: Do you know any first-class men?

Mrs. Wax: I can't find any in the society. (laughs)

Prabhupada: That is the defect. We have no idea who is first-class man. Everyone is drunkard, everyone smoker, everyone is gambler, everyone is illicit sex, where is first-class man? So in the absence of first-class man there must be criminals. Aiye. So there is a need of first-class men, first-class men and second-class men. Third-class, fourth-class, fifth-class, they are automatically there. So at the present moment fourth-class, fifth-class men. Third-class is also very scarcely found, and there is no question of first-class, second-class. But as in the full body we require brain, we require arm, we require belly, we require leg... Everything is required for different purposes of work. But at the present moment there is no place for the first-class men. When we ask our students that "You become free from all these four classes of sinful activity: no illicit sex, no meat-eating," people laugh: "Oh, why you are asking?" They do not know what is the ideal man. They think, "Illicit sex, what is wrong there? Meat-eating, what is wrong there?" They do not know what is right and wrong. Therefore all fourth-class men. They cannot understand even what is the value of these things. So you cannot be happy with fourth-class men. At least there must be a section, first-class men. That we are trying to create, a first-class man from this Gurukula.

Mrs. Wax: The ten-year-old boys who left Gurukula and went to Vrndavana and then went to Mayapur, what will they...? They will be trained in the divisions there and come back?

Prabhupada: No, that is the ideal, mind completely controlled, senses completely controlled, truthful and simple life. In this way they will be trained up gradually. And we have got one hundred books like that. If they read all these books and if they are trained up in their character, then they will be, in future, first-class men.

Mrs. Wax: Would you comment on the current political situation in India, what's happening right now?

Prabhupada: Yes, that will happen everywhere because there is no first-class man.

Mrs. Wax: So it doesn't matter if Narayana is successful?

Prabhupada: No.

Mrs. Wax: None of them are first-class people is what you're saying.

Prabhupada: They are politician. That also... All of them are fourth-class men. The fighting is between two section of fourth-class men. They do not know what is first-class man. Although the Bhagavad-gita is there, they do not know, neither do they care. Just like I was telling. When we propose that "No illicit sex, no meat eating," they laugh, "Hah! What is that?" But when they are put into trouble they say, "What to do?" When there is crime they say, "What to do?" They do not know how to tackle the situation because they are all third-class, fourth-class men. They do not know. They become disappointed.

Mrs. Wax: I realize that we're all considered spirit souls. But can a woman be first-class if she...

Prabhupada: Anyone can become first-class. Woman can become first-class if she is chaste and very much attached to husband. And if the husband is first-class, she becomes first-class. Because woman's duty is to follow husband. So if the husband is first-class, the wife is first-class, if she sticks to the husband.

Mrs. Wax: But she can never be first-class unless she has a first class husband.

Prabhupada: No, she is first class by following faithfully husband. And if the husband is first-class, then woman is first-class.

Mrs. Wax: Could a woman be a temple president?

Prabhupada: Yes, why not?

Mrs. Wax: Glad to hear it.

Prabhupada: But because women are less intelligent, they should remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and first-class son. Then she is first-class. That is the injunction. Woman should remain dependent in childhood upon first-class father, in youthhood upon first-class husband, and in old age upon first-class son. Woman is never independent. If she becomes independent, her life is not very good. She must agree to remain dependent on first-class father, first-class husband, and first-class son-three stages.

Mrs. Wax: She must become dependent on her son because her husband would ideally become a sannyasi. Is that...?

Prabhupada: Yes. You will find that Kapiladeva is instructing mother. That picture you can show her. Third Canto? You see the picture in the cover? The first-class son is instructing mother. Her husband has taken sannyasa and gone away. The son, first-class son, is instructing mother. That is the book. You will find full instruction to the mother. You can read one of the passages. You can read, Nitai, what He is instructing to His mother. The mother is questioning, and son is answering.

Nitai: Sri bhagavan uvaca...

Prabhupada: The mother first of all inquired? No.

Nitai: Uh, you want me to start there.

Prabhupada: Devahuti? The mother's name is Devahuti. And the son is celebrated as "son of Devahuti." The son is famous with the mother's name. And mother is taking instruction from the son. This is ideal society.

Prabhupada: There is no purport of Devahuti?

Nitai: "Here the word asad-indriya-tarsanat is significant. Asat means 'impermanent,' 'temporary,' and indriya means 'senses.' Thus asad-indriya-tarsanat means 'from being agitated by the temporarily manifest senses of the material body.' We are evolving through different statuses of material bodily existence sometimes in a human body, sometimes in an animal bodyand therefore the engagements of our material senses are also changing. Anything which changes is called temporary, or asat. We should know that beyond these temporary senses are our permanent senses, which are now covered by the material body. The permanent senses, being contaminated by matter, are not acting properly. Devotional service, therefore, involves freeing the senses from this contamination. When the contamination is completely removed and the senses act in the purity of unalloyed Krsna consciousness, then we have reached the sad-indriya, or eternal sense activities. The eternal sensual activities are called devotional service, whereas temporary sensual activities are called sense gratification. Unless one becomes tired of material sense gratification, there is no opportunity to hear transcendental messages from a person like Kapila. Devahuti expressed that she was tired. Now that her husband had left home, she wanted to get relief by hearing the instructions of Lord Kapila."

Prabhupada: So this full book is the answer and question between mother and son. So, although she is mother, she has given birth to the child, but she has become now dependent on this child for good instruction. This is ideal society.

Mrs. Wax: Thank you for answering my questions.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Give them prasadam. Hare Krsna.

Guest (Indian man): How do you advise Indians who are here and who have fallen to some extent in the materialistic world? They did not leave... Basically, they left their homes, most of them, to educate themselves. When they came here, they educated themselves, and they don't want to go back. Basically, they have fallen into the materialistic world. What advice you render them so that they get out of these clutches and go back and serve here or in the country but they should be devotional to the Almighty God?

Prabhupada: So there is no question of here and there. You can become advanced in spiritual life anywhere if you follow the principles. That we are teaching. We are opening centers all over the world. You take the advantage of our teaching, our books, our center. Then it will be all right. They are following, these Europeans and American boys. They are young boys. They are giving up meat-eating. Do you give up meat-eating? Why Indians, you should learn meat-eating? They are giving up, and you are learning to eat meat. This is the lesson, that these foreigners, they were accustomed to eat meat from the childhood, they are giving up, and you are eating meat. This is the instruction. Indians are drinking. They are giving up drinking. The lessons are already there. There is no question why. The lessons are already there, books are already there, the centers are already there. You learn and make your life purified. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. When we say, "No meat-eating," it is meant for everyone. Anyone who wants to become first-class man, it is necessary for him. And there is no question of Indian, European, American. You are committing so many sinful lives, and you want to become happythat is not possible. Now this paper Time is puzzled: "Crime and What to Do?" But they do not know... [break]

Guest: ...here in America they are fighting to become independent. And also abortion. They are fighting that the abortion should be there. Now this your message, is conveyed through the reporters and I would like the reporter to assess the reaction from the masses here, whether Gurukula is sponsoring for the women liberation and equal rights...

Prabhupada: No, no, you are asking solution of the question who is already in darkness. You should take instruction from Bhagavad-gita. You are asking women who are supposed to be dependent, and you are asking question from them. To answer will not be from them. The answer, the standard answer, you have to take from the book of knowledge, Bhagavad-gita. Then the answer will be perfect.

Jayatirtha: But if the people complain that we send our children to Gurukula at five, but their children they kill before they have a chance to be born. And they say that we are inhuman.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Jayatirtha: The people in general, they say that we are inhuman because we send our children at five to Gurukula. But they do not think that they are killing their own children before they have a chance to be born.

Prabhupada: Yes, therefore we say there is no first-class men to guide. They are killing child within the womb. They are not given chance to come out and see the light. And we are putting children at five, so we are criminal. They are denying the right of birth. So these things are happening because there is no first-class brain. Yes?

Mr. Wax: In your many visits around the world do you see a desire among many men to try to improve, to become first-class men?

Prabhupada: Yes, in your country there are so many.

Mr. Wax: Is there a great desire around the world? We here are a small group.

Prabhupada: Everywhere, everywhere. In Africa also.

Mr. Wax: There's hope for our world today?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Otherwise, why we are trying unless there is hope? We are not hopeless. If you train... If you can train a monkey to dance according to your will, why not human being? You can train even a tiger in the circus; he will act as you desire. It is the question of training. If the animal can be trained, why not a human being? You must know how to train. That knowledge is lacking, how to train. That we are giving, this Krsna consciousness movement.

Guest (Indian man): Swamiji, I'll ask one last question. What advice do you give to a man of family? I am taking my case, I have four children, and they are, their ages, between six and thirteen. I have to see that they grow up nice, I have to see that they educate themself so that they are as according to you... I don't know. I don't call myself first-class, second-class, third-class. As you said, there are no first-class men, second-class men. But then how, apart from making them first class that they should follow the religious...?

Prabhupada: No, no, if you become first-class, and they will follow you. You remain last-class, and how you can train your first-class? (laughter) In the sastra it is said, "Unless you can create first-class man, don't beget children." Pita na sa syaj janani na sa syad gurur na sa syat, na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum. It is the duty of the father to raise his children first-class. Otherwise he should not become a father. That is contraceptive. Just like Vasudeva and Devaki. Formerly they were Vasus and they were asked by Brahma to create progeny. So the husband and wife, they practiced austerities very severely. So then God appeared before them: "What do you want?" And they said that "We can enter into family life provided You become our son." No, "If we get a son like you." Then God said, "Where is second person like Me? So I shall become your son." Then, in next life, Devaki got Krsna as his child. So every father and mother should take this vow, that "Unless our children become first-class, we don't want children." This is ideal. What is the use of begetting cats and dogs? You must have first-class children. That requires tapasya. So at least we should follow the standard, how to raise our children to become first-class. There is no current? You can get on the light. At the present moment, people cannot understand even that there is life after death. Most people. There is life after deaththey cannot understand, even big, big professors, big, big learned scholars. Everyone is thinking, "This body is accidental and when the body will be finished, everything is finished." That is the general understanding. But Bhagavad-gita, you read. It is said, na hanyate hanyamane sarire: [Bg. 2.20] "After the destruction of the body, the soul is not destroyed." Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya navani anyani grhnati aparani: [Bg. 2.22] "Just like when our dress becomes old enough not to be used, then we accept another dress, similarly, when this body is old enough, not workable, then we accept another body." These things are there. But who is trying to understand it? At least all our Indians, those who are born in India, wherefrom Bhagavad-gita has come out, at least they should understand. But they are not understanding. They are interpreting Bhagavad-gita in their own way. This is the difficulty. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is, and people are taking advantage of that. So first-class man, he knows what is Bhagavad-gita and tries to apply the teachings in practical life. Then you become first-class. In the Bhagavad-gita you will find first-class eating, first-class life, second-class eating, second-class life, third-class... Everything is there. So people should be trained up. Economic question? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, annad bhavanti bhutani [Bg. 3.14]. You produce food grain, anna, sufficiently. So there is immense land still. Say, in America, so much land is without any utilization, in Africa, in Australia. They are not being properly utilized. People are complaining, "Overpopulation." Now countries which are overpopulated, they are not allowed to utilize the vacant land, neither people are being trained how to produce food grain. They are being trained up, technology, to produce motor tire. And nobody is interested to produce food grain. So without taking food grains, they are killing animals, and they are eating, short cut. They do not know killing of animals is sinful activity. This is the... Man is advanced; we can grow food. This killing of animals is for the non-civilized society. They cannot... They do not know how to grow food. They were killing animals. When man is advanced in his knowledge and education, why they should kill? Especially in America, we see so many nice foodstuffs. Fruits, grains, milk. And from milk, you can get hundreds of nice preparations, all nutritious. In our New Vrindaban we are doing thatrabri, pera, burfi. The other farmers are surprised that from milk such nice preparation can be prepared. So instead of teaching themyou Indian, you know how to utilize milk and prepare so many nice preparation,you are learning how to eat meat. Why? So if you forget your culture and if you become victimized, that is your fault. You should teach them how to utilize milk. And if the cows are kept jubilant, they will deliver double milk. They know, "We shall be killed." They are always depressed. Therefore milk is not properly supplied. So that is stated in the Bhagavad..., er, Srimad-Bhagavatam, that during Maharaja Yudhisthira's time the cows were so jubilant that milk was dropping from the milkbags, so much so that the pasturing grounds became muddy with milk. So if you keep... Killing of cows means utilizing the blood in different form. The milk is also another transformation of the blood. So if you take milk sufficiently and prepare nice foodstuff, then it is equally beneficial like the meat from health point of view. But one must know the..., learn that keep the cow living; at the same time be benefited by the blood. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita you will find this word krsi-go-raksya. Go-raksya. This animal has to be protected. Not other animals it is mentioned. And go, cow. So those who are meat-eaters, they can eat nonimportant animals. But cows should be given protection. This is the instruction. But in the western country the cows are specially being killed. Now the reaction is war, crime, and they are now repentant. And they will have to repent more and more.

Jayatirtha: So the wars and the crime are a direct result of the cow slaughter.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It is a wholesale reaction. All these crises are taking place. They are killing their own child. Own child means that child is criminal; therefore it is being killed within the womb. Nature will take action. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. You are not independent. So if you work independently, then you will have to suffer. The law of nature is there. You cannot avoid it. If you infect some disease, you must suffer from the disease. You cannot avoid it. This is the law of nature. Law of nature is working in such a way that as you are infecting... Karanam guna-sangah asya sad-asad-janma-yonisu. Find out this verse. Why there are varieties of life. One is tree, one is cat, one is dog, one is human being, one is blind, one is lame, one is educated, one is foolishwhy? Why the difference, varieties? And that is answered in the Bhagavad-gita, karanam guna-sango 'sya: "As you are infecting the modes of material nature, you are getting your birth." Otherwise, how you can explain by nature there are so many varieties of life, 8,400,000 species of life?

Jayatirtha: You mentioned several times that those persons who are guilty of abortion, then they also enter a womb, but they never leave it alive. They're also killed within the womb.

Prabhupada: Yes. That means... That child is killed means it must take another birth. Again in the womb it will be killed. Again another womb. This is going on. Mudha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, "Birth after birth they will be put into the darkness of life."

Prabhupada: Purport.

Nitai: "This verse is very important for an understanding of how the living entities transmigrate from one body to another. It is explained in the Second Chapter that the living entity is transmigrating from one body to another just as one changes dress. This change of dress is due to his attachment to material existence. As long as he is captivated by this false manifestation, he has to continue transmigrating from one body to another. Due to his desire to lord it over material nature, he is put into such undesirable circumstances. Under the influence of material desire, the entity is born sometimes as a demigod, sometimes as a man, sometimes as a beast, as a bird, as a worm, as an aquatic, as a saintly man, as a bug. This is going on. And in all cases the living entity thinks himself to be the master of his circumstances, yet he is under the influence of material nature. How he is put into such different bodies is explained here. It is due to association with the different modes of nature. One has to rise, therefore, above the three material modes and become situated in the transcendental position. That is called Krsna consciousness. Unless one is situated in Krsna consciousness, his material consciousness will oblige him to transfer from one body to another because he has material desires since time immemorial. But he has to change that conception. That change can be effected only by hearing from authoritative sources. The best example is here: Arjuna is hearing the science of God from Krsna. The living entity, if he submits to this hearing process, will lose his long-cherished desire to dominate the material nature, and gradually and proportionately, as he reduces his long desire to dominate, he comes to enjoy spiritual happiness."

Nitai: No.

Prabhupada: Purport.

Prabhupada: So everything is explained. If anyone wants to take advantage of it, he can take. We have got fifty books like this. Those who are interested in the science and philosophy of Krsna consciousness, they can read all these books. Otherwise, one can chant Hare Krsna, That will also help. The human civilization means everyone shall try to become first-class man. This is human civilization, not to remain like animals. That attempt is lacking now. Here the civilization is that the dog is jumping or running, and human being is running in a motor car, and he is thinking he is more civilized than the dog. But the business is running. That's all. The dog is having sex on the street, and the human being is having sex in a very nice decorated apartment and therefore he is civilized. But the business is the same. The dog is eating on the floor and the human being is eating in a very nice table, nice dish, and therefore he is civilized. But the business is eating. The dog is trying to defend itself by barking or by teeth and jaws, and the human being is trying to defend the society by atom bomb, but the business is defense. Therefore sastra says, ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca samanyam etat pasubhir naranam: "This business of eating, sleeping, mating, and defending is common to the animal and to the man." The man, if he does not understand what he is, why he is suffering this material tribulations, then he remains cats and dogs. The cats and dogs, they cannot question, but human being can question. And he should take the answer from these books of knowledge. That is human life. Otherwise, so far eating, sleeping, sex and defense, that is common for the dogs and man. There is no difference. He is doing in his own way, we are doing in our own way, but the business is the same. So human being must go above these four businesses, the fifth business. The fifth business is how to understand God. Otherwise, the bodily four businesses, that is common. Even an ant, it is also eating. It is going from this place to that place: "Where is a grain of sugar?" And we are also running in car this way and that way: "Where is eating?" The hog is also running: "Where is stool? Where is stool?" So... [break] (child makes sounds) Is he chanting mantra? That small...

Jayatirtha: Yes, he's chanting nicely.

Prabhupada: Thank you, Hare Krsna. Just see. He is being trained up. Just see how he is taking lesson. So it is possible. So from childhood, if he is trained up, then in future he will become first-class man.

Jayatirtha: Sometimes people complain that we don't give our children any right of free choice, that we train them in our own way.

Prabhupada: This is nonsense, to give free choice to the child. This is nonsense. Child should be protected. That is intelligence. That is the wrong type of consciousness. According to Vedic civilization, a child, a woman, a brahmana, a cow, and an old man they should be given protection, not freedom, but protection.

Jayatirtha: At the same time in that Time article it discussed that about fifty percent of the crime was done by children under eighteen and people are afraid even to go to the schools.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are not educated properly. Not only that they have given photograph: the children take small..., yes, weapon, knife. And examination is held under police vigilance. This is the education.

Mrs. Wax: Some of us are parents of devotees and when you came to America nine years ago, eight years ago...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mrs. Wax: ...some young people were attracted to the message and responded and joined Krsna consciousness. Is there a special reason? What explanation do you have why some...?

Prabhupada: Yes. The special reason was... That was published in one paper, Voice East. What is that?

Devotees: Village Voice.

Prabhupada: Yes. They wrote a very big article that "We thought God is dead but Swamiji has brought God in his kirtana." They wrote this article. They found God's presence in Hare Krsna mantra. This Brahmananda, he was attracted first.

Mrs. Wax: The first one?

Brahmananda: One of the first ones.

Mrs. Wax: Really?

Prabhupada: His photo was published in New York Times, dancing. He and another boy... (laughter) Yes. He and another boy, Acyutanandahe is now in India; he is also sannyasithese two boys were dancing hand to hand, and this was published in New York Times.

Mrs. Wax: What I'm asking is why could he understand?

Prabhupada: Then you ask him how, he'll reply. (laughter)

Mrs. Wax: Why did you?

Prabhupada: Why he became attracted and began to dance. He is present here. I did not ask him to come and dance.

Brahmananda: Well, I was just... I cannot say exactly why. I was searching, however. I was looking for something better than what I was doing.

Prabhupada: His father predicted that "This boy will become a pious man. He is not going to take up my business." (laughter) His father is a very big, rich man running on factories. But he was disappointed that "This, my child, will not be a factory worker." Is it not? You tell.

Brahmananda: Yes. Actually we also say that it is Prabhupada's grace that he came here and he actually delivered a process which is nothing of his own manufacture. This chanting of Hare Krsna is a bona fide transcendental process. And Prabhupada has delivered it purely. So therefore it has great effect. Although it seems that there are only a few of us who are actually taking to this movement, we consider that we are representative of the whole world. Actually this movement has now spread all over the world. I myself have been in Africa, and the movement is even taking effect there. So we see that our movement is very important, and we have members from practically every country, every religion, every kind of social group in the world. Therefore we see a great scope for this movement. And at the present moment we are not getting so much help from governments, authorities, so many groups that could offer especially financial help. We're having to do everything by ourselves. So therefore our facilities are limited. If we had more facility, certainly this movement would grow far more than it is now.

Prabhupada: Upendra. You can take it. So try to understand this movement and write more and more articles and educate your countrymen. That will be very nice.

Mrs. Wax: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mrs. Wax: My son is educating me. That's what you said.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Mrs. Wax: You said that's the proper...

Prabhupada: Yes, son should be so nicely educated that he can teach his mother also. That is nice. Some of the parents of my disciples, they come to congratulate, give me thanks. And some of them to curse me (laughter), that "You have spoiled our children." (laughing) Brahmananda's mother is very angry. (laughter)

Mrs. Wax: She's very angry.

Brahmananda: She has given myself and also my brother.

Mrs. Wax: Oh, your brother too.

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: When she came to see me I asked, "Mrs. Bruce, you have got money. Give me some money." So she became angry: "I have given my two sons." (laughter)

Mrs. Wax: Your brother joined after you.

Brahmananda: Just a month after.

Mrs. Wax: Are there any more

Brahmananda: One sister. She's never...

Mrs. Wax: Never walked out. (laughter)

Jayatirtha: The parents of one devotee came to the temple in Los Angeles and were picketing with signs in front of the building.

Mrs. Wax: Oh, really.

Jayatirtha: They were accusing us of kidnapping their daughter. When I spoke with them I said, "Before your daughter came to our movement she was taking drugs and having sex life even though she was at the early age and so many nonsense things. But now she's not doing those things." They said, "I'd rather she be doing those things than joining your movement." So some people they can't appreciate.

Mrs. Wax: I understand Mr. Patrick kidnapped Laksmi-narayana. Is he all right?

Jayatirtha: Laksmi-narayana, yes he escaped.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jayatirtha: There's this one fellow, Mr. Ted Patrick. He goes and he kidnaps the devotees. The parents pay him $1,000 up to $25,000...

Prabhupada: Accha.

Jayatirtha: ...depending on how wealthy they are. He kidnaps them and tries to brainwash them that this Krsna consciousness is not good.

Devotee: He calls it deprogramming. He says... He tries to deprogram the devotees that we have simply been hypnotized by chanting. So he has to snap us out of it by deprogramming. And he uses very severe techniques, very harsh.

Prabhupada: And the parents are inducing him.

Jayatirtha: Yes.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Brahmananda: All over America.

Jayatirtha: They tear off the neckbeads and tear up your pictures in front of the devotees, try to force them to eat meat, so many things.

Devotee: Blasphemy.

Jayatirtha: Recently we got a conviction against him. He got six months in prison. In Los Angeles we got to convict him for this kind of activity. So he is being stopped.

Guest (Indian man): Also he can't come to Canada any more, can't cross the border.

Jayatirtha: Oh, he's been barred.

Guest: He is barred from coming to Canada.

Brahmananda: He was put into the Denver county jail also when we were in Denver. He's out on bail now.

Mrs. Wax: Not only kidnapping devotees, Krsna devotees, but all religious movements. He can't stand them.

Prabhupada: And the parents are taking help from him.

Jayatirtha: Yes.

Prabhupada: This is the difficulty.

Mrs. Wax: I've noticed that there are different dates given to when the Vedas began, the beginnings of the Vedas. Some historians and authorities say one thing and I've seen many different figures. What is the accurate time they were spoken.

Prabhupada: If you can find out what is the accurate time of this cosmic creation, then you will find the date of Vedas. Can you find out when it was created? Have you got any statistics?

Mrs. Wax: No, none. I was hoping you did. (laughs)

Mr. Wax: How old is the Hare Krsna chant.

Prabhupada: As old as this creation.

Mr. Wax: (indistinct) ...if you get any statistics, let me know.

Brahmananda: It shows the limitation of our scientific knowledge that we don't even know the accurate date of the cosmic manifestation.

Prabhupada: So far Krsna consciousness is concerned, you can take it: since five thousand years, when Krsna was present, He gave this instruction. But it existed before Krsna's instruction. About forty millions of years ago He gave this instruction to the sun-god. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita:

Jayatirtha: Like the frog in the well.

Prabhupada: Yes. A frog in the well is thinking, "This is the limit of water." (laughter) And if you say there is Atlantic Ocean, he cannot understand it. He will think, "What is that?" "Oh, it is very big." "How much? Is it three feet? It is four feet?" "No, no, very big." "Five feet?" "No, no, still..." "Six feet?" So he is calculating in that way, "Four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten," but Atlantic ocean is beyond his conception. So these are all Dr. Frog's philosophy. Yes. And the so-called philosophers, they are Dr. Frog. (laughter) We consider them as Dr. Frog. Some of my students who are doctors, they are now trying to give up their job because they are understanding this is all false knowledge. Yes.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, because you are presenting this knowledge so purely, then it's possible for the common man to understand this knowledge without chanting and following the four regulative principles.

Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is not possible. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. You have to cleanse the mirror of your consciousness, then the reflection will be properly viewed. If you keep it dirty, then it is not possible. Therefore we require first-class men to understand this philosophy, not the fourth-class man. If you keep him fourth-class man, it is not possible.

Devotee (2): We are giving these books to so many common men. Then the books will attract them to perhaps chanting and following the regulative principles.

Prabhupada: Yes, if they read. Even if they touch. That is the difference between this book and ordinary book. Even they touch and they read one line and says, "Oh, it is very nice," he makes a step forward. If he simply says this word, "Oh, it is very nice," that is sufficient to bring him. Therefore I am trying to push. He has paid some money. He will then say, "What these nonsense have written. Let me see." (laughter) And if he sees and says, "Oh, it is very nice," then the beginning is immediately. Therefore we are trying to push. At least let him say, "It is very nice." The Kartikeya's mother, the practical experience... The Kartikeya, when he used to go to see his mother, the mother was going to dance, ball dance, and she would not speak: "All right, sit down. I am coming." She used to go out. The same mother gradually, in the association of her son, became Krsna conscious. So at the time of death she asked Kartikeya, "Is your Krsna here?" and she died immediately. This is the effect. So anta-kale, she remembered Krsna, so her life was successful. She inquired like this, "Is your Krsna here?" And immediately died. So she got the benefit of her son's Krsna consciousness. You can ask Kartikeya also. She said that.

Jayatirtha: Yes, he told me that story.

Prabhupada: Yes. So all the mothers of my disciples, they will get salvation because she has got nice son like...

Jayatirtha: All the mothers will get salvation.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Mrs. Wax: Oh, good. (laughter)

Devotee (3): What about the fathers.

Prabhupada: Father also. Both the father and mother. Because they are father and mother of a Vaisnava devotee, so they will be taken special care. You'll find from the Prahlada Maharaja's description. Even a father like Hiranyakasipu, he got salvation because Prahlada was son.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, it seems strange that so many parents who are engaged in meat-eating and illicit sex and intoxication and gambling, could have a son who would become a Vaisnava.

Prabhupada: Therefore they will get the advantage of the son. Somehow or other, they have produced a son, Vaisnava, so the son's activities will react upon the life of the parents. Because naturally the sons think of the father and mother, that is beneficial for them. However one may be renounced, he cannot get rid of family affection. That is natural. So the Vaisnava son sometimes thinks of the father and mother. So they are getting the benefit.

Devotee: So sometimes the attachment is beneficial, then?

Prabhupada: Yes. What is this Krsna consciousness movement? We are trying to be attached with Krsna. This is our movement. Instead of having attachment with this whole material world, we are turning to transfer the attachment to Krsna. Find out this verse,

Prabhupada: "With mind attached to Me." This Krsna consciousness movement means to keep the mind attached to Krsna. That is success. That yoga we are practicing, how to keep the mind attached to Krsna. Then it is successful. Our mind is attached to something. Without attachment, mind cannot be free even for a moment. So the bhakti-yoga means how to transfer the attachment of mind to Krsna, that's all. That is Krsna consciousness. You are working, you are rendering your service without any charges, without any profitwhy? Because your mind has been attached to Krsna. Otherwise what business you have got to work for Krsna consciousness movement without any remuneration? You are all American boys. You are qualified. You can earn thousands of dollars. But why you have given up? Because you are attached to Krsna. Param drstva nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. You have found better attachment; therefore you given up. So that is Krsna consciousness. We are attached to so many nonsense things. When we wind up all these attachments and concentrate on Krsna, then life is perfect. That is wanted. We are not going to sacrifice attachment. But we are trying to transfer the attachment from matter to Krsna. Then our life is successful. But that attachment is very rare.