Room Conversation – February 13, 1974, Vṛndāvana

We do the aratik and read all your books

[audio starts]

Gurudasa: At first they went to the Kaliya, that Kaliya tree, and then Madana-mohana, new and old, and then to the samadhi, [indistinct] samadhi, and then I left, at Madana-mohana. Dr. Kapoor came this morning?

Prabhupada: No.

Gurudasa: No?

Syamasundara: All these boys and girls all went to sleep for a few minutes.

Prabhupada: [to guest] Thank you. You have come from where?

Guest (1): Just now from the Hanuman Mandir, just down the road there, not far. But I'm..., we're all from America.

Prabhupada: Here you are remaining there?

Guest: We are there during the day, and at night we stay at the Jaipuria Mohan?, a guesthouse just down to the right.

Prabhupada: Where is [indistinct]

Devotee: [indistinct]... He's delivering fruits and flowers.

Guest: Nim Karoli Baba. We were just now with Nim Karoli, taking darsana of Baba Nim Karoli.

Prabhupada: Nim Babari?

Guest: Nim Karoli. And he asked us to come here to this place and ask... He requested a kirtana at the temple. He would like some of the people here to come and sing a kirtana, if you..., if you wish.

Prabhupada: Kirtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible?

Guest: I..., I don't know. I'm just... He asked me to come and request it, so...

Prabhupada: We are holding kirtana here, morning and evening if one is interested.

Lady guest (2): There are thirty Westerners there.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Lady guest (2): There are about thirty Westerners there, that every day we go to a Maharaja's darsana.

Prabhupada: Thirty Westerners?

Guest (1): Yes, that's right.

Prabhupada: Oh. That, I have no objection, we can go,[indistinct] those are organizing. You are also staying?

Lady guest (2): Yes.

Guest (1): The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask.

Gurudasa: Do you have any..., any other questions?

Guest (1): No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment.

Gurudasa: You don't have to explain your presence you are most welcome.

Guest (1): Thank you.

Prabhupada: Where is the Deity?

Devotee: Taking on sahkirtana.

Prabhupada: You get time, you can...

Devotee: Sahkirtana, when you're ready.

Gurudasa: She [second lady guest] was attending all the lectures at the panḍal in Delhi.

Prabhupada: Yes, I have seen her.

Gurudasa: And Philadelphia also.

Prabhupada: So, you understand our philosophy?

Lady guest (3): Understand...?

Prabhupada: Our philosophy?

Guest (1): Philosophy.

Lady guest (3): Yes, I do. I think I do. [laughs] I was in New York at Hare Krsna [indistinct] time, and we have a temple in our apartment, picture of the Deities.

Prabhupada: Where?

Lady guest (3): Philadelphia.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Lady guest (3): And we do the aratik and read all your books.

Prabhupada: Which book?

Lady guest (3): Sri Īsopanisad, Lord Caitanya, Krsna book, and obviously [indistinct].

Gurudasa: Prabhupada's going to put out a book called Thus They Spoke, with all the philosophers, and refute them by Krsna consciousness. Refute them or [indistinct].

Guest (1): Different schools of philosophy.

Gurudasa: Yeah. Especially attacking Darwin.

Guest (1): Darwinism. Yes, by all means. That's good.

Syamasundara: They tried, but they weren't..., they weren't God conscious. They were recording in their own poor? life. [indistinct] the truth. The philosophers, you know, they were just men trying to figure..., figure it out with their mind.

Prabhupada: They are all, so far we have studied all these philosophers, in the Western countries, they have... lacking in knowledge. The main difference is that they consider this body as the self, and on that wrong basis they theorize [indistinct]. If your basic standing is wrong, then how you can deliver the right? Therefore in Bhagavata..., Srimad Bhagavata, it is said that yasyatma-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhiḥ kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhiḥ [SB 10.84.13]: "Anyone, considers this body as his self is no better than the ass and the cow."

[to guests] What is your philosophy? You don't take this body as the self?

Guest (1): I... Oh, no.

Prabhupada: You?

Guest (2): No.

Prabhupada: Very good. So who is bringing my bedding?

Syamasundara: Uh, from the Radha Damodara? I don't know.

Gurudasa: I've got the keys to that room also.

Syamasundara: Perhaps Subala has already made arrangements.

Prabhupada: [to guests] So, what is your philosophy?

Guest (1): My philosophy?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): The body is not the self. The self, or the atman, is the one absolute existence, but it has a delusive power, whereby...

Prabhupada: Who is that got delusive power?

Guest (1): God, or...

Devotee: God?

Guest (1): ...the maya, the maya of God makes..., makes a man identify himself with his body. But it is..., that's an illusion, and it's God's play that sometimes..., it's God's play that sometimes a man ignorantly identifies himself with the body, and through God's grace the bonds of ignorance are..., he is released from the bonds of ignorance through God's grace.

Prabhupada: By God's grace, what happens?

Guest (1): One cannot... One achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's..., one no longer identifies himself with his body.

Prabhupada: So result of loving God, what it is?

Guest (1): Without loving God?

Devotee: No. Result.

Prabhupada: Result is what?

Guest (1): Of loving God? Yes.

Prabhupada: What will come?

Guest (1): Is union with God. Union with God.

Devotee: What is that union?

Guest (1): What is union? Union, I think it..., it's called yoga, or it's samadhi. I don't really know so much about it. Just what I've read.

Prabhupada: Samadhi is the name, what you expressed by union? Just like you are there; I am here. You speak of union. What is the form of unity?

Guest (1): What is the form of unity?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): I... My understanding is that, that, er, the spirit, God, the Supreme Spirit, is beyond form, but yet through loving...

Prabhupada: Beyond form.

Guest (1): ...through loving the form of God... It has form and yet it's formless. It's both..., has form and formless.

Prabhupada: What is that formlessness, and what is that form?

Guest (1): That I can't say. What do I know about these things? [laughs] My own knowledge is just very slight.

Prabhupada: You are not learning there, where you are staying?

Guest (1): I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Maharaja..., this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest.

Prabhupada: But love, if you have no form, where to love? The air?

Guest (1): You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti, you love the form of God.

Prabhupada: But you said it's formless.

Guest (1): Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the...

Prabhupada: How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy?

Guest (1): You can't love the formless, it's true.

Prabhupada: Then. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love?

Guest (1): He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me.

Prabhupada: What does he teach?

Guest (1): He said...

Prabhupada: He teaches form?

Guest (1): He says that... Yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumanji.

Prabhupada: Who is Hanuman?

Guest (1): Hanuman is the breath of Rama.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (1): The breath of Rama, svasa. Rama-ke-svasa, breath of Rama.

Prabhupada: Breath?

Guest (1): The breath. Hanuman was the... Rama, Rama once asked Hanuman, "What do you see? How do you see Me?'' and Hanuman answered, "When I know who I am, You and I are one, and when I forget who I am, then I serve You."

Prabhupada: That's so nonsense.

Guest (1): Nonsense? Well, perhaps that's true. I don't know...

Gurudasa: When you remember who you are, you serve, and when you forget who you are, you think you're one with God. Just like suppose you sat in Nam Karoli's chair, just forgetting who you are, that his chela, his disciple, "I'm Nam Karoli."

Guest (1): Nim Karoli.

Gurudasa: Nim Karoli. Sorry. Similarly, when we forget who we are, we think we're one with God, but when we remember, we're His bhakta, we're His servant.

Guest (1): Yes, that's also true. It's a fact.

Gurudasa: When Hanuman, he's a great bhakta... We should follow in his footsteps. "One who says he is My devotee, he is not My devotee. One who says he is a devotee of My devotee, he is My devotee.'' Very humble. Then we can make advancement [Cc Madhya 13.80].

Guest (1): Maharaja is teaching-you asked his teaching-these things are the same really, I, things that he's told me. But he said that the whole universe was God, and that you should never hurt anyone, that you should serve...

Prabhupada: How you can serve whole universe?

Guest (1): I beg your pardon.

Prabhupada: How you can serve whole universe?

Guest (1): How can you serve the whole universe?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): You love the beings that you find yourself...

Prabhupada: You love? To whom you love?

Guest (1): Whoever you're with.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (1): Whatever, whatever...

Prabhupada: That is... Suppose you love me. You love the whole universe? Why this false impression?

Guest (1): Well, certainly every being in the universe is a part of me.

Prabhupada: [indistinct] You can place your love to a particular person or particular community.

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Does it mean you love the whole universe?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupada: Just like, just like nationalism. You are American?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: So you have got your nationality. You love your country. But why you kill cows? Is that love of universe?

Guest (1): If I love America?

Prabhupada: Yes. You love your men, but you kill your cows.

Guest (1): Accha.

Prabhupada: Why?

Guest (1): Through ignorance. Men...

Prabhupada: Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance?

Guest (1): You do your best.

Prabhupada: If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love.

Guest (1): That's true, of course. Ignorance is...

Prabhupada: Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love.

Guest (1): Well, certainly every...

Prabhupada: That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love... universe. He has contradicted...

Guest (1): Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe...

Prabhupada: But you cannot love each being. That is my point.

Syamasundara: They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (1): You love the universe. Like you asked if I loved the universe.

Syamasundara: She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe.

Prabhupada: Then there is impure being and pure being?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Is it that a fact?

Guest (1): Is that true?

Prabhupada: Then as soon as you say pure being, there is impure being.

Guest (1): It seems that way.

Lady guest (3): The soul isn't impure.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Lady gUest (3): The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality-purity of the soul.

Guest (1): You love God.

Prabhupada: Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul.

Guest (1): It seems that way. It seems that there is...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): ...to my eyes.

Prabhupada: Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure.

Guest (1): That's very difficult.

Guest (3): I don't know what you're saying.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Lady guest (3): That there can be an impurity of the soul?

Guest (1): He was asking...

Prabhupada: You said. You said purity of the soul. That means there must be the contradictory: impurity of soul. Then now we have to distinguish which is impure, which is pure.

Devotee: How can we distinguish?

Guest (1): In the absolute sense the soul is always pure; there is no impurity. But when man is in ignorance, as maya..., Sri Krsna's yogamaya, His power of delusion, He can...., He makes you think..., He makes you see impurity. You see suffering in the world.

Prabhupada: So wherefrom the maya comes?

Guest (1): From... I don't know. I can't answer that. It's, it's, it's God's nature, it's His lila.

Gurudasa: You stated that Krsna makes us see impurity. Is this correct, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: [indistinct]

Gurudasa: That Sri Krsna, Lord Krsna makes us see impurity. He mentioned...

Guest (1): When a man is in ignorance.

Gurudasa: Well, which is first?

Guest (1): Which is first? Which-ignorance or what?

Gurudasa: Does Krsna make us in ignorance?

Guest (1): Well, He creates the whole universe and everything in it.

Gurudasa: Yes. Srila Prabhupada, maybe you can explain that.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Gurudasa: Does Krsna makes us ignorant or are we ignorant?

Prabhupada: We are.

Gurudasa: Yes.

Guest (1): We are.

Gurudasa: Yes.

Prabhupada: As he said, when you forget, this ignorance.

Guest (1): Yes.

Gurudasa: Can you explain that a little bit more for us?

Prabhupada: He has already said. This forgetfulness is ignorance.

Guest (1): Yes, forgetfulness.

Prabhupada: He knows that.

Guest (1): The sense of egoism, "I and me and mine," is ignorance. It's forgetting that God is everything and that you are nothing.

Prabhupada: Then God and you are different, because you forget God, He [indistinct].

Gurudasa: Krsna does not forget, and we forget, so there must be difference. We're impure and He's pure, so we're different. So, to certain extent...

Guest (1): Actually, that's the best attitude.

Gurudasa: So to understand how we're different means we're in knowledge, not ignorance. And then what to do with that understanding means that not seeming. You said "it seems," but we're saying "not seems"...

Guest (1): That's because my..., I've read so many things, some other types of philosophy.

Prabhupada: Now, [indistinct], the universe is God, then you are also God. Is it?

Guest (1): Yes, that follows.

Prabhupada: Then how you become ignorant?

Guest (1): That's a mystery. That's something I can't explain.

Prabhupada: Everything is mystery.

Guest (1): Is that your... Is it a mystery?

Gurudasa: No.

Guest (1): You understand. Well, that's good. Someone has to.

Gurudasa: [indistinct]... to Srila Prabhupada. He has made us, om ajnana timirandasya, that by the torchlight of knowledge, he has opened my eyes. There's one Sanskrit poem,

By the torchlight of knowledge he has opened my darkened eyes.

Syamasundara: Everything is a mystery, but if someone who knows that mystery tells you the answer, then you can know, then it ceases to be a mystery. But you can't find out on your own.

Guest (1): No, you can't.

Gurudasa: Prabhupada was the other day saying that we're the..., we have the science of love of God. Many people say..., the material scientists say "perhaps" or "about" 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came; five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship.

Prabhupada: This is very difficult for the Mayavadi philosophers to answer, that everyone is God, but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant, in maya? So maya becomes better than God. Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant [indistinct] God, how it happens? You said there is God. God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God He is, that He becomes ignorant sometimes?

Gurudasa: And if it's Krsna's yogamaya that makes us forgetful and makes God forgetful, that means Krsna's God.

Guest (1): No, no, He's the Lord of maya. He..., Krsna's pure.

Gurudasa: Krsna's the Lord of everything.

Guest (1): Yes, of course. Krsna never forgets.

Gurudasa: Maya's also Krsna's servant.

Guest (1): Yes, of course.

Prabhupada: Now... That's right. If Krsna does not forget, then Krsna is God, isn't it?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Then why not take Krsna's instruction? Why go to others?

Guest (1): Well, I have. I try to the best of my ability. I've read the Gita, the Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: What Krsna says? What Krsna says? If Krsna is God and Krsna is never forgetful, then why not go to Krsna?

Gurudasa: He says he's read the Gita and the Srimad-Bhagavatam. So what has come?

Prabhupada: Reading is not, I mean to say...

Guest (1): Of course not, reading is very [indistinct].

Prabhupada: ...to understand Krsna, Krsna says, mattaḥ parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg 7.7]: "There is no more greater truth than Me." Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg 5.29], "I am the Lord of all the planetary systems, sarva-loka." So why should we go to others if you think that Krsna is God, there is no greater personality than Krsna? Then you should take the instruction from Krsna. It is very easy.

Guest (1): "Where is Krsna"?

Prabhupada: Huh? To take instruction from Krsna.

Guest (1): Of course. As much as He allows me.

Prabhupada: No, He allows everything. What is the difficulty? Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]: "You give up everything; just surrender unto Me." So if you surrender, who forbids you? But if you don't, that is your business.

Guest (1): How does one surrender?

Prabhupada: That is another thing. You do not know, then you have to learn from one who is surrendered. But the position is this: Krsna says that "You surrender unto Me." You can surrender immediately. Surrender means just like in war field there is surrender: "[indistinct] now. Now, sir, you surrender. Now whatever you like, you can do." That is surrender. "If you like, kill me, and if you like, keep me." That is surrender. It is very simple thing. In the war field, when other party is defeated, the holds the hand, "Surrender." That means "If you like, kill me. I throw down my weapon." People accept it. That's all. So He is the Supreme. If He likes, He can kill me; if He likes, He can save me. So I am subordinate. How can..., I can be equal with Krsna? As soon as you surrender, it is accepted that you are predominated and He is predominator. So how you, the predominated, can be equal to the predominator?

Devotee: Can't be.

Guest (1): He is the Lord [indistinct].

Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness.

Syamasundara: [to guest] One thing you said when you came in was that we merge with something which is formless, beyond Krsna, the first...

Guest (1): No, it's not beyond Krsna.

Prabhupada: If he has read Bhagavad-gita, that he cannot say, because Krsna says, brahmano aham pratistha [Bg 14.27], "I am the resort of Brahman." So He is greater than Brahman. Mattaḥ sarvam pravartate [Bg 10.8]: "Even Brahman emanates from Me." And actually it is so. Just like the sunshine is emanating from the sun globe. Although the sunshine is universal, but still dependent on the sun globe.

Guest (1): Of course, that's true. There's nothing beyond Krsna, of course.

Prabhupada: That's good.

Gurudasa: Very nice.

Guest (1): I wouldn't try to say that.

Gurudasa: Very nice.

Prabhupada: Very good. He's a good boy.

Syamasundara: Srila Prabhupada, I have a question.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Syamasundara: If unity means to agree in purpose...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ...then what is that purpose? What is Krsna's purpose?

Prabhupada: Krsna, Krsna is living force. He has got different purpose.

Syamasundara: Oh.

Prabhupada: Don't say that Krsna has only one purpose. That only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Krsna says, you do it.

Syamasundara: Oh. So His purpose is individual for everyone.

Prabhupada: Yes. Varieties of purposes. Krsna is asking Arjuna to fight with the Kurus, or He's asking me to preach. I am not fighting. So Krsna, being all pervasive. He has got varieties of order, and your duty is to carry out the order of Krsna, that's all. What kind of order He'll give, you expect, just like you are doing, all my disciples. It is not that you are all doing the same thing. Somebody is pūjari, somebody is preaching, somebody is collector, somebody is Messiah, somebody is this, somebody is that. So there are different varieties, but your duty is to carry out my order.

Gurudasa: Just like you're satisfying us all, Krsna satisfies everyone, [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Surrender means, whatever is favorable for Krsna we apply, that's all. You cannot say, just like Arjuna, he first of all declined, "Krsna, I am not going to fight.'' That is not surrender.

Guest (1): "I'll do whatever You want, but don't ask me to fight."

Prabhupada: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad-gita, he said, "Yes, I shall do that.'' So long I deny Krsna, that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Krsna, yes,'' then this is unity. This is unity. Unity does not mean that Krsna and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Krsna is distinct, and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is disunity, and at the end when he said, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava [Bg 18.73], my illusion is now over," that is unity. Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot..., that cannot be. Krsna says that "Both you and Me and all these soldiers and kings, they existed before, now we are existing, and we shall exist in future." So that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Krsna, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise, your existence, mine and Krsna's existence, always will be.

Syamasundara: Sometimes people ask what is..., what is God's ultimate goal? What is... Why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations...

Prabhupada: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Krsna, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance: "All right, enjoy [indistinct],'' and giving instruction also that "You enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again." Just like a father. Children wants to play in the field. "All right, you play.'' Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. It is now time up...," they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Krsna has given us freedom, "All right, enjoy." And now Krsna gives instruction that "Now you give up all these things. You have enjoyed. [indistinct] can come back," then your... He created for you. Same example I always give: Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that "Why government is creating? It is unnecessary, it's premature, construction in jail work." But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Krsna, they want to enjoy. "All right, for you. You enjoy to your fullest extent.'' And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying, then Krsna says that "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be happy.'' But the demons will never surrender to Krsna. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirvisesavada and sūnyavada: to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say, "Mr. Such-and-such, you sit down here, try to become void,'' how long you shall remain, void?

Guest (1): No, that's impossible.

Prabhupada: That's impossible. So this is a wrong theory. Because I am a living entity, I have got my activities. I can remain void for few seconds, for few minutes. [guests enter and pay obeisances] Very glad to see you.

Guest (4): Yes.

Prabhupada: Oh, thank you [indistinct] good boy. Come on, I... So, you have... You are old [indistinct]. Jaya. [break] [end]