Room Conversation

February 13, 1974, Vrndavana
Guru dasa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Palika was all right.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guru dasa: I came back a little ahead because they wanted to make sure Palika was all right.
Prabhupada: How many of you went?
Guru dasa: Most everyone, about twenty-five.
Prabhupada: (indistinct)
Guru dasa: At first they went, (indistinct) Kaliya, that Kaliya tree, and then Madana-mohana, new and old, and then to the samadhi, (indistinct) samadhi, and then I left (indistinct). Dr. Kapoor came this morning?
Devotee: No.
Guru dasa: No?
Devotee: I wasn't here. I went to sleep for a few minutes.
Prabhupada: Thank you. You have come from where?
Guest (1): Just now from the Hanuman Mandir, just down the road there, not far, but I'm, we're all from America.
Prabhupada: Here you are remaining there?
Guest: We live there during the day, and at night we stay at the Jaipuria Bhavan(?), a guesthouse just down (indistinct).
Devotee: He's living (indistinct).
Guest: Nim Karoli Baba. We were just now with Nim Karoli, taking darsana of Baba Nim Karoli.
Prabhupada: Nim Karoli?
Guest: Nim Karoli. And he asked us to come here to this place and ask... He requested a kirtana at the temple. He would like some of the people here to come and sing a kirtana, if you, if you, if you wish.
Prabhupada: Kirtana we hold here. If we have to go individually everyone's house, how it is possible?
Guest: I, I don't know. I'm just... He asked me to come and request it, so...
Prabhupada: We are holding kirtana here, morning and evening if one is interested.
Guest (2): There are about thirty Westerners there.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest (2): We have thirty Westerners there, that everyday we go to a Maharaja's darsana.
Prabhupada: Thirty Westerners?
Guest (1): Yes, that's right.
Prabhupada: Oh. That, I have no objection, (indistinct) those who are organizing. You are also staying?
Guest (2): Yes.
Guest (1): The three of us came. He sent three of us to ask.
Guru dasa: Do you have any, any other questions?
Guest (1): No, that's all. That just explains our presence here at the moment.
Guru dasa: You don't have to explain your presence in (indistinct).
Guest (1): Thank you.
Prabhupada: Where is the Deity?
Devotee: Taken on sankirtana.
Prabhupada: Take your time and...
Devotee: Sankirtana, when you're able.
Guru dasa: She (Guest 3) was attending all the lectures at the pandal in Delhi.
Prabhupada: Yes, I have seen her.
Guru dasa: And Philadelphia also.
Prabhupada: So, you understand our philosophy?
Guest (3): Understand...?
Prabhupada: Our philosophy?
Guest (1): Philosophy.
Guest (3): Yes, I do. I think I do. (laughs) I was in New York at Hare Krsna (indistinct) time, and we have a temple in our apartment, picture of the Deities.
Prabhupada: Where?
Guest (3): Philadelphia.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Guest (3): And we do the aratik and read all your books.
Prabhupada: Which book?
Guest (3): Sri Isopanisad, Lord Caitanya, Krsna book, (indistinct).
Guru dasa: Prabhupada's going to put out a book called Thus They Spoke, with all the philosophers and refute them by Krsna consciousness. Refute them all (indistinct).
Guest (1): Different schools of philosophy.
Guru dasa: Yeah. Especially attacking Darwin.
Guest (1): Darwinism. Yes, by all means. That's good.
Guru dasa: They tried, but they weren't, they weren't God conscious. They were (indistinct).
Hayagriva: The philosophers, you know, they were just men trying to figure, figure it out with their minds.
Prabhupada: They are all, so far we have studied all these philosophers, they (indistinct). They are lacking in knowledge. The main difference is that they consider the body as the self, and on that wrong basis they theorize (indistinct). If your basic standing is wrong, then how you can deliver the right? Therefore in Bhagavata, Srimad Bhagavata, it is said that yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhih: [SB 10.84.13] "Anyone who considers this body as his self is no better than the ass and the cow." What is your philosophy? You consider this body as the self?
Guest (1): I... Oh, no.
Prabhupada: You?
Guest (2): No.
Prabhupada: Very good. So we begin by (indistinct)?
Syamasundara: Uh, from the Radha Damodara. I don't know.
Guru dasa: I've got three keys to that room open.
Syamasundara: Perhaps Subala has already made arrangements.
Prabhupada: So, what is your philosophy?
Guest (1): My philosophy?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): The body is not the self. The self, or the atman, is the one absolute existence, but is has a delusive power whereby...
Prabhupada: Who is that God? Delusive power?
Guest (1): God, or...
Devotee: God?
Guest (1): ...the maya, the maya of God makes, makes a man identify himself with his body, but it is, that's an illusion, and it's God's play that sometimes..., it's God's play that sometimes a man ignorantly identifies himself with the body, and through God's grace the bonds of ignorance are..., he is released from the bonds of ignorance through God's grace.
Prabhupada: By God's grace, what happens?
Guest (1): One cannot... One achieves, one attains love for God, pure love. And, uh, by loving God, one, one, uh, one's..., one no longer identifies himself with his body.
Prabhupada: So result of loving God, what it is?
Guest (1): Without loving God?
Prabhupada: No.
Devotee: Result.
Prabhupada: Result is what?
Guest (1): Of loving God? Yes.
Prabhupada: What will come?
Guest (1): Is union with God. Union with God.
Devotee: What is that union?
Guest (1): What is union? Union, I think it, it's called yoga, or it's samadhi. I don't really know so much about it. Just what I've read.
Prabhupada: Now what is the name, what you expressed by union? Just like you are there; I am here. You speak of union. What is the form of unity?
Guest (1): What is the form of unity?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): My understanding is that, that, um, the spirit, God, the Supreme Spirit, is beyond form, but yet through loving...
Prabhupada: Beyond form.
Guest (1): ...through loving the form of God... It has form and yet it's formless. It's both..., has form and formless.
Prabhupada: What is that formlessness, and what is that form?
Guest (1): That I can't say. What do I know about these things? My own knowledge is just very slight.
Prabhupada: You are not learning there, where you are staying?
Guest (1): I'm learning. I'm learning love. It's, Maharaja..., this Nim Karoli Baba, has told us that love, love of God is the highest.
Prabhupada: But love, if you have no form where to love? The air?
Guest (1): You love the form, it's true. You have bhakti, you love the form of God.
Prabhupada: But you said it's formless.
Guest (1): Ah, yes. Well, it's, uh, that, I've read the...
Prabhupada: How it is? How, if is formless, how you can love, enjoy?
Guest (1): You can't love the formless, it's true.
Prabhupada: Yes. Fictitious love. Why don't you ask this intelligent question? If you say formless, then where is the love?
Guest (1): He doesn't teach the formless. That was my own view, but that is not anything that he's ever taught me.
Prabhupada: What does he teach?
Guest (1): He said...
Prabhupada: He teaches form?
Guest (1): He says that... Yes. He is a great bhakta of Hanumanji.
Prabhupada: Who is Hanuman?
Guest (1): Hanuman is the breath of Rama.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest (1): The breath of Rama, svasa. Rama-ke-svasa, breath of Rama.
Prabhupada: Breath?
Guest (1): The breath. Hanuman was the... Rama, Rama once asked Hanuman, "What do you see? How do you see Me?'' and Hanuman answered, "When I know who I am, You and I are one, and when I forget who I am, then I serve you."
Prabhupada: That's so nonsense.
Guest (1): Nonsense? Well, perhaps that's true. I don't know...
Guru dasa: When you remember who you are you serve, and when you forget who you are, you think you're one with God. Just like suppose you sat in Nam Karoli's chair, just forgetting who you are, that his chela, his disciple, I'm Nam Karoli.
Guest (1): Nim Karoli.
Guru dasa: Nim Karoli. Sorry. Similarly, when we forget who we are, we think we're one with God, but when we remember, we're His bhakta, we're His servant.
Guest (1): Yes, that's also true. It's a fact.
Guru dasa: When Hanuman, he's a great bhakta. We should follow in his footsteps. "One who says he is My devotee, he is not My devotee. One who says he is a devotee of My devotee, he is My devotee.'' Very humble. Then we can make advancement [Cc. Madhya 13.80].
Guest (1): Maharaja is teachingyou asked his teachingthese things are the same really, I, things that he's told me. But he said that the whole universe was God, and that you should never hurt anyone, that you should serve...
Prabhupada: How you can serve whole universe?
Guest (1): I beg your pardon.
Prabhupada: How you can serve whole universe?
Guest (1): How can you serve the whole universe?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): You love the beings that you find yourself...
Prabhupada: You love? To whom you love?
Guest (1): Whoever you're with.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest (1): Whatever, whatever...
Prabhupada: That is... Suppose you love me. You love the whole universe? Why this false impression?
Guest (1): Well certainly every being in the universe is a part of me.
Prabhupada: (indistinct). You can place your love to a particular person or particular community.
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupada: Does it mean you love the whole universe?
Guest (1): No.
Prabhupada: Just like, just like nationalism. You are American?
Guest (1: Yes.
Prabhupada: So you have got your nationality. You love your country. But why you kill cows? Is that love of universe?
Guest (1): If I love America?
Prabhupada: Yes. You love your men, but you kill your cows.
Guest (1): Accha.
Prabhupada: Why?
Guest (1): Through ignorance. Men...
Prabhupada: Then how you love the whole universe, if you are in ignorance?
Guest (1): You do your best.
Prabhupada: If you are ignorant, you do not know how to love.
Guest (1): That's true, of course. Ignorance is...
Prabhupada: Then how do you speak of universal love? When you do not know how to love, how do you speak universe, big, big word. You do not know the art of love, and you are speaking universal love.
Guest (1): Well, certainly every...
Prabhupada: That is ignorance. First of all you say that you do not know how to love, and you are speaking of love the universe. It has already...
Guest (1): Certainly each being in the universe is a part of the universe...
Prabhupada: But you cannot love each being. That is my point.
Devotee: They were hinting at it. She was saying if you love a pure being...
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest (1): You love the universe. Like you asked if I loved the universe.
Devotee: She said that if you love a pure being, then you can love the universe. She stated that if you love a pure being then you can love the universe.
Prabhupada: Then there is impure being and pure being?
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: Is it a fact?
Devotee: Is that true?
Prabhupada: Then as soon as you say pure being, there is impure being.
Guest (1): It seems that way.
Guest (3): The soul isn't impure.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest (3): The soul isn't impure. That's the only reality-purity of the soul.
Guest (1): You love God.
Prabhupada: Purity of the soul, that means there are impurity of the soul.
Guest (1): It seems that way. It seems that there is...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (1): ...to my eyes.
Prabhupada: Then you have to distinguish which is impure and which is pure.
Guest (1): That's very difficult.
Guest (3): I don't know what your saying.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guest (3): That there can be an impurity of the soul?
Guest (1): He was asking...
Prabhupada: You said. You said purity of the soul. That means there must be the contradictory: impurity of soul. Then now we have to distinguish which is impure, which is pure.
Devotee: How can we distinguish?
Guest (1): In the absolute sense the soul is always pure, there is no impurity. But when man is in ignorance, as maya... Sri Krsna's yogamaya, His power of delusion, He can...., He makes you think, He makes you see impurity. You see suffering in the world.
Prabhupada: So wherefrom the maya comes?
Guest (1): From... I don't know, I can't answer that. It's, it's, it's God's nature, it's His lila.
Guru dasa: You stated that Krsna makes us see impurity. Is this correct Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: (indistinct)
Guru dasa: That Sri Krsna, Lord Krsna makes us see impurity. He mentioned...
Guest (1): When a man is in ignorance.
Guru dasa: Well which is first?
Guest (1): Which is first? Which, ignorance or what?
Guru dasa: Does Krsna make us in ignorance?
Guest (1): Well, He creates the whole universe and everything in it.
Guru dasa: Yes. Srila Prabhupada maybe you can explain that.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Guru dasa: Does Krsna makes us ignorant or are we ignorant?
Prabhupada: We are.
Guru dasa: Yes.
Guest (1): We are.
Guru dasa: Yes.
Prabhupada: As he said, when you forget, you are in ignorance.
Guest (1): Yes.
Guru dasa: Can you explain that a little bit more for us?
Prabhupada: He has already said. This forgetfulness is ignorance.
Guest (1): Yes, forgetfulness.
Prabhupada: He knows that.
Guest (1): The sense of egoism, I and me and mine is ignorance. It's forgetting that God is everything and that you are nothing.
Prabhupada: That God and you are different, because you forget God, (indistinct).
Guru dasa: (indistinct) .... and we forget, so they must be different. We're impure and He's pure, so we're different.
Guest (1): Actually that's the best attitude.
Guru dasa: So to understand how we're different means we're in knowledge, not ignorance. And then what to do with that understanding means that not seeming. You said it seems, but we're saying not seems...
Guest (1): That's because my, I've read some other things, some other types of thoughts. Now...
Prabhupada: Now, (indistinct), the universe is God, then you are also God. Is it?
Guest (1): Yes, that follows.
Prabhupada: Then, how you become ignorant?
Guest (1): That's a mystery. That's something I can't explain.
Prabhupada: Everything is mystery.
Guest (1): Is that your... Is that a mystery?
Guru dasa: No.
Guest (1): You understand. Well, that's good.
Guru dasa: (indistinct). Srila Prabhupada. He has made us, om ajnana timirandasya, that by the torchlight of knowledge, he has opened my eyes. There's one Sanskrit poem,
om ajnana-timirandhasya
jnananjana salakaya
caksur unmilitam yena
tasmai sri gurave namah
By the torchlight of knowledge he has opened my darkened eyes.
Syamasundara: Everything is a mystery, but if someone who knows that mystery tells you the answer then you can know, then it ceases to be a mystery. But you can't find out on your own.
Guest (1): No, you can't.
Guru dasa: Prabhupada was the other day saying that we're the, we have the science of love of God. Many people say, the material scientists say perhaps or about 5,000 years ago such and such happened, but we say 485 years ago Lord Caitanya came. Five thousand years ago such and such happened. There are 8,400,000 species of life, not perhaps there are 8,400,000. So, this is very scientific, this relationship.
Prabhupada: This is very difficult for the Mayavadi philosophers to answer, that everyone is God but when God becomes ignorant? And what kind of God He is that He forgets and becomes ignorant? In maya. So maya becomes better than God? Is it not? Then what is the definition of God? So many things. But they cannot answer. Just like you said that when you become ignorant (indistinct) God, how it happens? (indistinct). God, how God can be ignorant? And how can God become forgetful? It is contradictory. Then what kind of God he is, that he becomes ignorant sometimes?
Guru dasa: And if it's Krsna's yogamaya that makes us forgetful and makes God forgetful, that means Krsna's God.
Guest (1): No, no, He's the Lord of maya. He, Krsna's pure.
Guru dasa: Krsna's the Lord of everything.
Guest (1): Yes, of course. Krsna never forgets.
Guru dasa: Maya's also Krsna's servant.
Guest (1): Yes, of course.
Prabhupada: Now (indistinct) That's right. If Krsna does not forget, then Krsna is God, isn't it?
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupada: Then why not take Krsna lila study? Why go to others?
Guest (1): Well, I have. I try to the best of my ability, I've read the Gita, the Bhagavata.
Prabhupada: What Krsna says, what Krsna says, if Krsna is God and Krsna is never forgetful, then why not go to Krsna?
Guru dasa: He says he's read the Gita and the Srimad-Bhagavatam. So what has come?
Prabhupada: Reading is not, I mean to say...
Guest (1): Of course not, reading is very (indistinct).
Prabhupada: ...to understand Krsna, Krsna says mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7], there is no more greater truth than Me. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29], I am the Lord of all the planetary systems, sarva-loka. So why should you go to others if you think that Krsna is God, there is no greater personality than Krsna? Take the instruction from Krsna. It is very easy.
Guest (1): Where is Krsna?
Prabhupada: Huh? To take instruction from Krsna.
Guest (1): Of course. As much as He allows me.
Prabhupada: So, He allows everything. What is the difficulty? Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], you give up everything just surrender unto Me. So if you surrender (indistinct), but if you don't that is your business.
Guest (1): How does one surrender?
Prabhupada: That is another thing. You do not know then, you have to learn who I will surrender, but the position is this, Krsna says that you surrender unto Me. You can surrender immediately. Surrender means just like in war field there is surrender: "(indistinct) now. Now sir, you surrender. Now whatever you like you can do." That is surrender. "If you like, kill me, and if you like, keep(?) me. That is surrender. It is very simple thing. In the war field when other party is defeated, the holds the hand, surrender. That means "If you like kill me, I throw down my weapon. If you like, save me." So He is the Supreme. If He likes He can kill me, if He likes He can save me, so I am subordinate. How can, I can do equally Krsna? As soon as you surrender, it is accepted that you are predominated and He is predominator. So how you, the predominated, can be equal to the predominator?
Devotee: Can't be.
Guest (1): He is the Lord (indistinct).
Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness.
Syamasundara: The thing you said when you came in was that we merge with something which is formless beyond Krsna, the first...
Guest (1): No, it's not beyond Krsna.
Prabhupada: If he has read Bhagavad-gita, that he cannot say, because Krsna says brahmano aham pratistha, I am the resort of Brahman. So He is greater than Brahman. Mattah sarvam pravartate, even Brahman emanates from Me, and actually it is so. Just like the sunshine (indistinct) sun globe. Although the sunshine is universe(?), but still dependent on the sun globe.
Guest (1): Of course that's true. There's nothing beyond Krsna, of course.
Prabhupada: That's good(?).
Devotee: Very nice (indistinct).
Guest (1): (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Very good. He's(?) good boy.
Syamasundara: Srila Prabhupada, I have a question.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Syamasundara: If unity means to agree in purpose.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: Then what is that purpose? What is Krsna's purpose?
Prabhupada: Krsna, Krsna is living force. He has got different purpose.
Syamasundara: Oh.
Prabhupada: Don't say that Krsna has only one purpose, that only purpose is that you surrender. Now, when you surrender, whatever Krsna says you do it.
Syamasundara: Oh. So His purpose is individual for everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes. Varieties of purposes. Krsna is asking Arjuna to fight with the Kurus, or He's asking me to preach. I am not fighting. So Krsna, (indistinct), He has got varieties of order, and your duty is to carry out the order of Krsna, that's all. What kind of order He'll give, you accept, just like you are doing, all my disciples. It is not that you are all doing the same thing. Somebody is pujari, somebody is preaching, somebody is collector, somebody is (indistinct), somebody is this, somebody is that. So there are different varieties, but your duty is to carry out my order.
Guru dasa: Just like you're satisfying us all, Krsna satisfies everyone, (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Surrender means, whatever is favorable for Krsna we apply, that's all. You cannot say, just like Arjuna, he first of all declined, "Krsna, I am not going to fight.'' That is not surrender.
Guest (1): "I'll do whatever you want, but don't ask me to fight."
Prabhupada: You cannot deny Him. That is surrender. Then, when he understood Bhagavad-gita he said "Yes, I shall do that.'' So long I deny Krsna that is disunity, and as soon as I agree, "Krsna, yes.'' Then this unity. Unity does not mean that Krsna and Arjuna become united, homogeneous. No. Krsna is distinct and Arjuna. They continue to exist. In the beginning Arjuna was denying to fight. That is dependence(?), and at the end when he said, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73], my illusion is now over. That is (indistinct). Unity does not mean one's self loses individuality. That is cannot, that cannot be. Krsna says that "both you and me and all these soldiers and Kings they existed before, now we are existing and we shall exist in future(?). So, that individuality is always kept. So unity means agreeing with the order of Krsna, and disunity means not agreeing with the order. Otherwise your existence(?), mine and Krsna's existence, always will be.
Syamasundara: Sometimes people ask what is, what is God's ultimate goal? What is, why is God creating everything and are all these manifestations...
Prabhupada: These are very old questions. These are not very intelligent questions. God is not creating. God is giving you chance. The conditioned souls who are not with Krsna, they wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore God is giving them chance. "All right enjoy (indistinct),'' and giving instruction also that you enjoy in this way, so that you may come back again. Just like a father. Children wants to play in the (indistinct). "All right, you play.'' Then, as soon as he asks, "Please come back. (indistinct), they come back. Similarly this material world, we wanted to enjoy, so Krsna has given us freedom, "All right enjoy". And now Krsna gives instruction that "now you give up all this (indistinct) come back, then you (indistinct).'' He created for you. Same example I always give. Just like the government, when there is formation of the city, jail construction is also there. You cannot say that, "Why government is creating, it is unnecessary, it's premature, construction of jail work(?). But the government knows that there are some criminals who has to be put into the jail. Therefore the jail created. So because there are criminals, therefore government creates. Similarly, there are many conditioned souls who, instead of serving Krsna, they want to enjoy. "All right, for you, you enjoy to your fullest extent.'' And when he is tired of enjoying, enjoying, enjoying. Then Krsna says that, "If you give up all this nonsense, just surrender to Me, you will be accepted.'' But the demons will never surrender to Krsna. They say that this material world is false and Brahman is truth, but they do not know how to act as Brahman. Brahman means to stop. That is nirvisesavada and sunyavada, to become void. But you cannot become void. If I say "Mr. such and such, you sit down here, try to become void,'' how long you shall do that, void?
Guest (1): No, that's impossible.
Prabhupada: That's impossible. So this is a wrong theory. Because I am a living entity, I have got my activities. I can remain void for few seconds, for few minutes. (Guests enter and pay obeisances) Very glad to see you. (indistinctbreak)
Dr. Kapoor: As I understand (indistinct). The export minister (indistinct). (indistinct) C. D. Gupta, the old chief minister, you see. He is coming and I take they have arranged a program in his honor. I don't know how they will make this program fit in. I don't think..., huh? [break]
Prabhupada: In the road they are announcing that Sri Bhaktivedanta Swami American sisyas...
Dr. Kapoor: I heard the announcement but that was on the (indistinct) hari-nama-sankirtana (indistinct). You have your (indistinct)?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: The other program is on behalf of...
Prabhupada: But we don't want.
Dr. Kapoor: Hari-nama-sankirtana mandal(?).
Prabhupada: Accha.
Dr. Kapoor: That is exclusively for you.
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Dr. Kapoor: But I don't know how they have arranged with this other program but I was told that this C. D. Gupta, the ex-chief minister is coming.
Guest (Indian man): At Sriji Mandir?
Dr. Kapoor: Sriji Mandir. (indistinct conversation in background) I was told by responsible person that C. D. Gupta is coming to see the temple at 4 o'clock. I don't know. At any rate I may be wrong. It's (indistinct) you see. They shouldn't make the two programs coincide. (pause) Program is working wonders through you?
Prabhupada: It is by your blessings.
Guest: (indistinct).
Prabhupada: I do not know how (indistinct) making plans. I am sometimes myself puzzled. (laughter)
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, because you are just an instrument (laughter).
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: You are just an instrument, you see.
Prabhupada: Just like Kaviraja Gosvami also writes that I do not know how things are coming, but with my hand is getting written. It is something like that.
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, yes. It cannot be, cannot but be (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness is so nice. Even by his consciousness it acts faultlessly.
Dr. Kapoor: It acts immediately.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: Yes (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Ahaituki.
Dr. Kapoor: Huh?
Dr. Kapoor: Ahaituki. Hmm.
Prabhupada: Jnana-vairagya, janayaty asu, ahaituki. Nobody knows how we do.
Dr. Kapoor: That's true.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: That's true. But the wonder is that it didn't act so far, you see, it didn't act when Bon Maharaja went up. It didn't act when a proper program, and a number of other people, you see. It has started acting only now, (laughter).
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Tamala Krsna: Do you know what the address of Indore is?
Prabhupada: What?
Tamala Krsna: Address of Indore? [break]
Dr. Kapoor: (Bengali).... Just that I was saying that we require you see, in this age.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: Just that I was saying.
Prabhupada: Simply they were binding or something else.
Dr. Kapoor: No, not only the outside, (laughter), the outside, and the people particularly in the west, you see, will not be impressed simply with the outside.
Prabhupada: (indistinct). Our Bhagavad-gita as it is, you have seen it?
Dr. Kapoor: Huh?
Prabhupada: I am presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is.
Dr. Kapoor: Huh.
Prabhupada: So that Bhagavad-gita as it is published by MacMillan Company.
Dr. Kapoor: I haven't read it through, but I saw the publication.
Prabhupada: Yes. So they are having every year one edition.
Dr. Kapoor: Hmm. I see. Wonderful.
Prabhupada: Yes, for the last, it has begun from 1968, it is still going on, every year, they publish and they send me royalty $2,000.
Dr. Kapoor: Good.
Guru dasa: (indistinct) has read Nectar of Devotion.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee: (indistinct) has read Nectar of Devotion.
Dr. Kapoor: Nectar of Devotion I have read. That's wonderfully done.
Prabhupada: You like it?
Dr. Kapoor: It's nectar, really.
Prabhupada: Doctor Kapoor, what is your age now? I think you are a little younger than me.
Dr. Kapoor: I think I am (indistinct) younger than you.
Prabhupada: Ah, what is your age now?
Dr. Kapoor: I am sixty-two, now, sixty-three, sixty-three.
Prabhupada: Ten years. Not ten years, nine years.
Dr. Kapoor: Nine years.
Prabhupada: Yes, because when you were a student, at that time we were family man.
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, when I had just finished my university career, I think...
Prabhupada: In Allahabad, when you were living at that...
Dr. Kapoor: Gaudiya Matha.
Prabhupada: Gaudiya Matha, I think you were student then.
Dr. Kapoor: I had just, I think, I was a research student then. I had just taken my MA and I was working as a research scholar. I met Giri Maharaja in 1931 when he did some (indistinct) at Nainital.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Dr. Kapoor: He first introduced me to Mahaprabhu, you see, or introduced Mahaprabhu to me. You see before that I was a scholar.
Prabhupada: But your teeth are very strong.
Dr. Kapoor: Teeth (indistinct)?
Prabhupada: You're having strong teeth.
Dr. Kapoor: They are, so long as you don't know that I have not real ones. (laughter)
Devotee: That is maya. (more laughing by Dr. Kapoor)
Prabhupada: (Hindi).
Dr. Kapoor: She was here only a couple of days ago. My youngest son was married on the 20th of this month...
Prabhupada: Ah, yes, I heard.
Dr. Kapoor: So they came in that connection.
Prabhupada: (Hindi).
Dr. Kapoor: I have two sons and two daughters. The eldest one is the one you know.
Prabhupada: Oh, in Kanpur.
Dr. Kapoor: In Kanpur.
Prabhupada: Dhawan.
Dr. Kapoor: Dhawan, Dhawan. Yes, she also knows you very well.
Prabhupada: Oh yes, I was Dhawan's guest sometimes.
Dr. Kapoor: You were his guest, yes, yes. My son-in-law was telling me.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: He was telling me.
Prabhupada: I think that gentleman is no longer alive.
Dr. Kapoor: His father is no more.
Prabhupada: No, yes, I am speaking of the old Dhawan.
Dr. Kapoor: Ah, I see.
Prabhupada: Even though he was a young man.
Dr. Kapoor: Ah, he was a young man. When did you go to Kanpur?
Prabhupada: I think I went to Kanpur sometimes in the year 1956.
Dr. Kapoor: 56?
Prabhupada: Yes, 55. (Bengali-greets visitor)
Guest: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) Sriji
Dr. Kapoor: Sriji, Sriji (Hindi).
Guest: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) [break] ... Kalau nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha. (Hindi). ...on this principle(?) I went, with determination. (Hindi) Yasya prasadad bhagavat prasado **. [break] (Bengali) ...seventy dollars per month. Seventy dollars means seven hundred rupees. So expenditure was over 2,000 rupees according to our Indian calculation.
Dr. Kapoor: And uh...
Prabhupada: The income was nil.
Dr. Kapoor: Nil. How much money did you carry with you?
Prabhupada: Forty rupees.
Dr. Kapoor: Forty rupees?
Prabhupada: Yes. But I could not spend because there was no exchange for Indian currency, no (laughter). So it was kept as it is. When I came back in 1967, that was spent as my taxi fare (laughter). At that time it was spent. From Palam airport to Delhi, that Chippiwada. So they charged me thirty-five rupees or forty rupees. So at that time it was spent, and 1967 there was heart attack.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Prabhupada: Yes. I was hospitalized, but I did not like the hospital. So I thought that now I shall die, let me go back to Vrndavana. (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Yes, it was 1967, wasn't it.
Prabhupada: 1967, yes.
Dr. Kapoor: So it was after the heart attack that you came here?
Prabhupada: Yes. At that time. Then there was repeated letters, come back, come back. So I returned in 1968. So, in spite of heart weakness, I worked. I suffered that weakness continually for one year.
Dr. Kapoor: Naturally, naturally.
Prabhupada: Then I was taking Kaviraja's medicine. I took it from here, that Yogendranatha. That gave me good strength, and massage the body. Not taking bath in cold water. In this way, somehow or other, still going on.
Dr. Kapoor: Now I think you would be more useful if you took more rest, spend as little as what Hare Krsna...
Prabhupada: What? Rest, (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: No, even then, (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Even if you go by plane.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: That means straight. So if you stay at one place that's a different kind of life, you see, it's not so strenuous. You move around from place to place...
Prabhupada: But I have got sixty-six branches, so if I do not go some time at least, they also become little depressed.
Dr. Kapoor: That is true, but you'll have to find some way out. You have to...
Prabhupada: I have constituted one governing body as Prabhupada desired, governing body, but still they are not so experienced. (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct) You would more usefully because you are (indistinct) to reading and writing (indistinct) than going about.
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Have a small center here in Vrndavana, and you should make this your permanent place for this.
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Would Vrndavana not be more suitable.
Prabhupada: Vrndavana is very suitable, but (Hindito other guests)
Dr. Kapoor: I am going to inform something. I am panca-sastri(?).
Prabhupada: Oh!
Dr. Kapoor: Ami vedante(?) gold medalist. I am gold medalist in Vaisnava sastra. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: If you let me, I wish to give life.
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: sixty, about sixty. I want to give my life for this religion.
Prabhupada: Oh, that's (indistinct).
Dr. Kapoor: Prabhupada, let's meet.
Prabhupada: Oh, you remain with us.
Dr. Kapoor: Practically I am very weak.
Dr. Kapoor: Now my hope is successful. I have seen you.
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Guest (4): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Guest (4): (Hindi). I am very impressed to read your book which is written by Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: You have seen some of my books?
Guest (4): Mm.
Prabhupada: So you can read.
Guest (4): I am willing to read in the (indistinct).
Prabhupada: So, first of all giving our Bhagavad-gita As It Is to read.... (Hindi) [break] (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Well I think it will be about five hundred pages. (Hindi conversation)
Prabhupada: ... especially Punjabis.
Dr. Kapoor: They are all over.
Prabhupada: Ah, Punjabis, Gujaratis.
Dr. Kapoor: Gujaratis also, Hm.
Prabhupada: And Sindhis. Gujaratis are more.
Dr. Kapoor: Huh!
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. In San Francisco there are many Gujaratis, Patels.
Dr. Kapoor: Patels. Hare Krsna. So how did you manage immediately after landing in USA?
Prabhupada: Yes. Manage, when I got only two-hundred dollars in hand, at that time immediately I rented a storefront.
Dr. Kapoor: Eh?
Prabhupada: Storefront.
Dr. Kapoor: Huh.
Prabhupada: A shop.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Prabhupada: It was hundred and twenty-five dollars. And I got opportunity, also, the same building, one small apartment, seventy-two dollars, or seventy dollars, no seventy-five, seventy-five. In this way, two-hundred dollars per month. So I had only two-hundred dollars, I immediately advanced and took the risk of two-hundred dollars.
Devotee: That was a year after you went.
Prabhupada: Yes. In 1966. I went there in 1965. So, then...
Dr. Kapoor: No, but from '65-'66 how did you manage? You didn't have any money with you.
Prabhupada: Managed by selling my books.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Prabhupada: Bhagavatam.
Dr. Kapoor: I see.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: I see. You carried your books with you?
Prabhupada: Yes, I took two-hundred sets of books.
Dr. Kapoor: I see.
Prabhupada: So I was taking the stock to the booksellers there or some institution or some friend. In this way, sixteen dollars, the full set sixteen dollars. In this way collecting. [break] ...That gentleman who carried me in his car, he is Mr. Kasinatha Servan(?). [break] ...Bhagavad-gita As It Is, a large edition, this size, eleven hundred pages.
Dr. Kapoor: I see.
Guru dasa: We should let Dr. Karan Singh patronize ...
Prabhupada: Huh?
Guru dasa: ...an Indian edition of it. We should let Dr. Karan Singh patronize an Indian edition of it, without, with one photo. As he was suggesting, let him patronize it, the Indian printing.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Guru dasa: Because there is so much demand. He wants to see it. He wants to see it.
Prabhupada: So why don't you get the manuscript and let us have an Indian edition. I told Rupanuga that the difficulty is that the enlarged edition when we are attempting to publish, MacMillan says that "We are publishing your book, why not we, we publish.'' If we publish, then we save our investment to publish. That has not been decided, so therefore I advised my secretary in New York that MacMillan's permission or no permission, you should immediately print. If they print it is all right, otherwise print ourself.
Dr. Kapoor: Haven't you given the copyright to them?
Prabhupada: No, copyright is mine.
Dr. Kapoor: Oh.
Guest (5): Can you get, get it, published in India.
Prabhupada: In India, yes. No, by publisher, especially publisher like MacMillan you save so much time and investment also. We are not for profit. We want to see the publication in the market, so in that sense we save so much trouble, but they always look after their business profit.
Dr. Kapoor: Naturally.
Prabhupada: In the beginning also I requested them to publish the whole, but they said, "No, it will be very big, it will be costly. You reduce it to 400 pages.'' So that 1100 pages were reduced to 400 pages. Now when people are demanding this Bhagavad-gita As It Is, people are coming. When our sankirtana party goes in the street many gentlemen comes and demands "Have you got Bhaktivedanta's Bhagavad-gita As It Is?"
Dr. Kapoor: Hm, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, they demand it. In every center it is going on very nicely. Then we have many customer requested the enlarged edition. So, so everything is ready. Now this controversy, whether MacMillan will publish or we shall publish.
Dr. Kapoor: There is no doubt that you will be saving a lot of trouble (indistinct).
Prabhupada: And they have got good organization.
Dr. Kapoor: Good organization they have got.
Prabhupada: All over the world.
Dr. Kapoor: They'll sell more. They'll sell more.
Prabhupada: Actually because it was published by MacMillan Company, it has become widely circulated, people are demanding.
Dr. Kapoor: I think you should let them publish.
Prabhupada: That I am trying, but it has not been decided, but anyway it will be published very soon.
Guru dasa: Even if they do publish it, they will not distribute it in India.
Prabhupada: Yes, in that sense we may publish in India.
Dr. Kapoor: You may have an agreement with them, that you have a cheaper Indian edition, which you will sell only in India, you can give them the right to sell it all over the world.
Prabhupada: I have asked that Shishu Kumar, Shishu Kumar you know?
Guru dasa: No.
Prabhupada: The Atmarama & Son's proprietor.
Guru dasa: Oh yes, yes.
Prabhupada: He came to see me.
Guru dasa: Yes, I know.
Prabhupada: So I asked him the quotation of that small edition of Bhagavad-gita As It Is. He told me that he will inform me. Anyway (Hindi).
Guest (5): (Hindi).
Prabhupada: Whenever I take ticket, round trip. (Hindi) [break] Ye 'nye ca papa, sudhyanti, prabhavisnave namah. Bhagavata...
Dr. Kapoor: (chants mantra). Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna-bhakti development (Hindibreak) ...creation. (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Before creation, the krsna-bhakti was in Vaikuntha (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: After creation it came from...
Prabhupada: Tene brahma hrda, adi-kavaye. Tene brahma. Brahma means before the creation. Aham evasam agre. Before creation Krsna was there, and it was, the krsna-bhakti was injected within the heart of Brahma. (Hindibreak) ...three to four hours at night and one hour or one and half hour, altogether five hours. Gosvamis (Hindi) ...brahma-bhutah. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].
Dr. Kapoor: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki [SB 1.2.18]. Uttama-sloke. Uttama (Hindi)
Dr. Kapoor: Minor accident with the bus (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Oh. Padam padam yad vipadam (laughter) . Tat padma vipad. Padam padam yad vipadam na tesam [SB 10.14.58].
Dr. Kapoor: ...accident.
Prabhupada: Tell me.
Dr. Kapoor: One you see I was going from Kanpur(?) to Benares, with (indistinct) in the same car, and when I went on a crossing a badly loaded truck, you see...
Prabhupada: Oh, so...
Dr. Kapoor: ...struck against our car, you see, and the car bounced, it jumped. It's about four or five feet from the ground, and it fell upside down, and there was not a scratch, I tell you. Not one of us was hurt. Not one of us. And a camel on the roadside, so he and one passenger, they were both killed.
Prabhupada: Killed?
Dr. Kapoor: Killed. I think (indistinct) to us.
Guest: At that time you remembered Bhagavan Sri Krsna, at that time. He remembers Sri Krsna Bhagavan.
Dr. Kapoor: Baba, I did not (indistinct) (laughter).
Prabhupada: He remembers Krsna always.
Dr. Kapoor: But Krsna remembered me (laughter), and you see it has been my experience, you see, on such occasions, if you are dedicated to Krsna, even if you don't remember Krsna, Krsna remembers you always.
Prabhupada: That is the special...
Dr. Kapoor: It is as much Krsna's responsibility to remember us in times of adversity, as it is ours to remember Him. But we are mortals and we are likely to forget Him.
Prabhupada: (Hindi).... Sraddha-sabde visvasa (kahe) sudrdha niscaya krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya [Cc. Madhya 22.62]. Sraddha. Our Vaisnava philosophy (Hindi) sraddha-sabde visvasa, full faith, visvasa, or sudrdha niscaya. (Hindi) Krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. If one becomes dovetailed in the service of the Lord, Krsna, then everything is done nicely. Sraddha-sabde visvasa sudrdha niscaya.
Dr. Kapoor: And people are really astounded to see sraddha, especially sraddha and guru in your disciples. That is the one thing that is clear to everybody.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Kapoor: (indistinct).
Guru dasa: What is that sraddha?
Prabhupada: Sraddha means faith in spiritual master. They are praising your faith in...
Dr. Kapoor: People are impressed very much by your guru-bhakti (laughter). (Hindi)
Guru dasa: If they associated with Srila Prabhupada they would...[break] (end)

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