September, 1973
Room Conversation

September 1, 1973, London
Prabhupāda: That there is no brain behind this creation. How foolish they are. There is no brain in this artistic work. And how wonderfully, because it is automatically coming, artist. Anything, you take flower. So, without brain how this thing can happen? But these rascals they do not understand. They say nature. What is this nature? Nature is an instrument, but the brain is God. Just like you paint a flower with the brush. The brush is not the creator of that painting, you are creating. Similarly, it appears that it is happening naturally. Nature is only brush, but the brain is God.
Guest: Yet no two are the same, are they?
Prabhupāda: Eh.
Guest: They are not the same.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Varieties. Everything is variety. Everything is variety, full of varieties. We find the same species of rose. Still, you'll find varieties. In human, twin brothers you will find still varieties.
Guest: And in Goloka Vṛndāvana, are there still varieties? Are there still varieties in Vṛndāvana?
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana?
Śrutakīrti: Goloka Vṛndāvana, are there still varieties he said.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. There are varieties. Ānanda, ānanda, pleasure means varieties. Variety is the mother of enjoyment. Without varieties, just like we prepare from grains, sugar, ghee, hundreds of varieties. If you simply give grain, ghee and sugar, it will not be enjoyable. But the same thing, you prepare in varieties and give you a plate, oh, you'll say, "Oh, so nice thing." The ingredients are the same. Grains, ghee and sugar, that's all. Similarly, this material world, the ingredients are the same. Namely five gross elements and three subtle elements, finer. Earth, water, air, fire, sky. These are gross elements. And mind, intelligence, ego these are finer elements. Combined together this material world has come. The brain behind is a living entity. Just like we are using these ingredients, these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, sky, making this building, making this table, making this chair, vase, so many things, harmonium, pictures, book. So the ingredients are the same, but my brain is working in different varieties. My brain or your brain. Human brain. Similarly this material cosmic manifestation is full of varieties. The brain behind it is Kṛṣṇa. That is stated, you have read our Bhagavad-gītā?
Guest: I've taken a look.
Prabhupāda: There is a verse. Find out:
mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
[Bg. 9.10]
mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
[Bg. 9.10]
"This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again."
Prabhupāda: Purport?
Śrutakīrti: It is clearly stated here that the Supreme Lord, although aloof from all the activities of the material world, remains the supreme director. The Supreme Lord is the supreme will and the background of this material manifestation, but the management is being conducted by material nature. Kṛṣṇa also states in Bhagavad-gītā that of all the living entities in different forms and species, "I am the Father." The father gives seeds to the womb of the mother for the child, and similarly the Supreme Lord by His mere glance injects all the living entities into the womb of material nature, and they come out in their different forms and species, according to their last desires and activities. All these living entities, although born under the glance of the Supreme Lord, still take their different bodies according to their past deeds and desires. So the Lord is not directly attached to this material creation. He simply glances over material nature; material nature is thus activated, and everything is created immediately. Because He glances over material nature, there is undoubtedly activity on the part of the Supreme Lord, but He has nothing to do with the manifestation of the material world directly. This example is given in the smṛti: when there is a fragrant flower before someone, the fragrance is touched by the smelling power of the person, yet the smelling and the flower are detached from one another. There is a similar connection between the material world and the Supreme Personality of Godhead; actually He has nothing to do with this material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities.
Guest: Is modern science materialism, Prabhupāda? Is it materialism?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: All, all materialism?
Prabhupāda: Just dealing with earth, water, air, fire, sky. That's all.
Guest: And in this time, modern science, you know, physics, chemistry, mathematics; is this all materialism?
Prabhupāda: All materialism.
Guest: All materialism.
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is spiritual.
Guest: And inside these people doing this work, is it Kṛṣṇa? Or what is it makes them do the work?
Prabhupāda: No. The soul is a living being. So nature is supplying material and he's molding in different forms. Just like earth is not man's creation. Earth is God's creation, or it is product of God's energy. But we are using this earth and molding in different forms, different pots, different dolls. So ingredients are supplied by God. Nature means God's energy. We simply handle them. We cannot produce anything, we transform only. Just like this iron, we cannot produce iron. It is gotten from the mine, iron bar. Now we have transformed into different forms. Because we have got creative energy like God, not very great, in very minute quantity. So as God has created by His intelligence, the whole universe—we are creating this table, this pillow, this harmonium—that's all. What you are finding?
Śrutakīrti: I was just looking at that verse again.
Prabhupāda: Which verse?
Śrutakīrti: Mayādhyakṣeṇa...
Prabhupāda: Oh.
mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ
sūyate sa-carācaram
hetunānena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
[Bg. 9.10]
The Bhagavad-gītā is the perfect information of everything. One has to study carefully, that's all. It is perfect information. And you can accept it with your good logic. Not that blindly you accept. Now just like Kṛṣṇa says: "The material elements are My energy." Now you can consider, you can argue, you can make argument, you'll come to the conclusion. Just like material elements, water, the vast water. The ocean, Atlantic Ocean, vast water. So it is created by God's energy. How can you explain with your argument? Because it is said there, Kṛṣṇa says, that "This is My energy." Now, if you accept it, it is all right. But if you have got hesitation, what is your reason?
Guest: Because one man says one thing and one man says another thing. So many people have different things to say.
Prabhupāda: No, personally. Suppose I ask you. What is your, you want to ask me?
Haṁsadūta: You have, that letter has a return address from Maṇḍalībhadra?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is here. Now the water... Just like from your body, water is produced, is it not?
Guest: Transformed?
Prabhupāda: Transformed or whatever, but you see urine is coming, perspiration is coming. So these different waters are produced by your energy within the body. So why not from God's energy the vast water?
Guest: Yes, truly.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: But why should he give us...
Prabhupāda: Because God is unlimited, He has got unlimited energy. have got limited energy. I can pass urine, say one pound, I can have perspiration say, one ounce but if God likes He can produce unlimited water. Why this one Atlantic Ocean? Many millions of Atlantic Oceans He can produce. Water produced from His body. So where is the difficulty to understand? When Kṛṣṇa says that the elements... Other matters are growing. Just like the hair. Now, today, I have shaved. Three days after, again it will grow. So I have got my energy within by which I'm constantly growing. But, hair is a material thing. So anything you take, it grows from the Supreme. It is very easy to understand.
Guest: Hmm. And ah, this inside, it grows because of Kṛṣṇa does it?
Prabhupāda: Everything is growing on account of Kṛṣṇa. Your body, inside or outside, it is made of these five elements: earth, water, air, fire, like that. It is nothing but combination of these five elements.
Guest: Is the water inside the same as the water in the ocean?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: It's the same water.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You... Have you tasted ever perspiration?
Guest: Hmm?
Prabhupāda: Perspiration, have you tasted?
Guest: Tasted it, yes, salt.
Prabhupāda: Salt, yes.
Guest: Ocean, yes.
Prabhupāda: It has got.
Guest: But one ocean is not the same as another eh? My business is mathematics. It's not very transcendental.
Prabhupāda: You are teacher?
Guest: No, not anymore. It's not very transcendental.
Śrutakīrti: He's asking if his business is transcendental.
Prabhupāda: No, if it is used for Kṛṣṇa, then it is transcendental. If it is used for your sense gratification, then it is material. That is the difference.
Guest: Yes. And how do you know whether you're using it for Kṛṣṇa or not?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That requires training from the Kṛṣṇa's representative, guru. Just like these boys are being trained up in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So it requires little training. Just like you are mathematician. To make another student mathematician, you have to train him. You have to teach him how to calculate two plus two equal to four. It will never be five. If somebody says, "No, my calculation is two plus two equal to five." Will it be accepted?
Guest: I'm afraid sometimes it can be true. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: How it can be true?
Guest: One plus one can equal three.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: One plus one can equal three sometimes.
Prabhupāda: Is there mathematical calculation?
Guest: I know that it's ah... I mean things reproduce. Life is not so fixed, not so rigid. But one does have to be trained, it's true. Training is, some people can understand and some people cannot understand.
Prabhupāda: That is difference of understanding.
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The fact is true. But if I cannot understand, that is my misfortune.
Guest: Yes. And if I can't understand what this is the end of the... So yes, it's the same. I think this is right.
Prabhupāda: God is fact. But if somebody cannot understand, it is his misfortune.
Guest: Yes. And another time, another place.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: As you say, there are many oceans. The Christians say, "In my father's house are many mansions." A Chair. (indistinct) Good enough?
Prabhupāda: No, you can sit down.
Guest: This has come a long way from the Barrier Reef, the Pacific. These shells. The shells.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Guest: From the Pacific. From the Barrier Reef, Australia. You know the Barrier Reef?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest: Yes, that's where they come from, the Barrier Reef.
Prabhupāda: I have seen the reef.
Guest: You have?
Prabhupāda: In Australia.
Guest: Oh, yes. I would like to see that. The sea is wonderful, isn't it? You like the sea they tell me.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Very green, clear.
Guest: Always a different color though. Always a little different isn't it?
Prabhupāda: Well, reef I have seen. It is about, not less than two hundred feet.
Guest: Really? They say under the water is beautiful, the light, and the color.
Prabhupāda: They go under the water?
Guest: They go, yes, under the water, in skin-diving. The coral, coral? Grows coral doesn't it? They say it's all, very beautiful. Jaya. Well, thank you, Prabhupāda, jaya.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Give him prasāda. Thank you.
Śrutakīrti: Take a little sweet.
Prabhupāda: What is your name?
Guest: Peter.
Prabhupāda: Peter, oh yes.
Guest: Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: Jaya. (end)
Room Conversation

September 2, 1973, London
Guest (1) (Indian man): ...Yes, yes. I ask him why, after such a long lapse of time we could see this trait of Hindu dharma.
Prabhupāda.: Yes. Not Hindu dharma.
Guest (1): Or Vedic dharma.
Prabhupāda: ...but spiritual, satisfaction of spiritual starvation. Because we are spiritual beings. That I was trying to explain. That we have bodily necessities, at the same time we have spiritual necessities. This Western civilization, they are simply after the bodily necessities. Just like here is a qualified medical man. He's made... What for, medical man? He knows how to satisfy the medical necessities of the body. He has no information of the spirit soul. Is it not a fact? Have you got any idea what is spirit soul?
Guest (2) (Indian Doctor): Not from the medical knowledge, certainly not.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I say that these universities, educational institution, all over the world, they are simply concerned with this body. According to our Vedic culture, to remain satisfied with the bodily necessities of life is the business of animals. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13].
yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
[SB 10.84.13]
These are animal conceptions. So anyone who is accepting this body as the self, he is sa eva go-kharaḥ. Go means cows and kharaḥ means asses. So this civilization based on the bodily necessities of life is animal civilization. Because we are not this body, we are spirit soul, as it is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: dehino 'smin dehe. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. The soul is within the body and it is transmigrating from one type of body to another. Even in this life. Just like I was in the baby's body, I was in a child's body, I was in a boy's body. Those bodies are gone. But I remember that I was in such and such bodies. But I am now in a different body. Therefore, although my bodies have changed so many times, I am cognizant, I know that I had such and such body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. To transmigrate from one body to another. This is the authoritative statement of Bhagavad-gītā. There are so many serious students of Bhagavad-gītā. Just like Mahatma Gandhi, his photographs were always with the Bhagavad-gītā, standing. But he was not a leader of understanding what is soul. He was simply concerned with the body. This nationalism is concerning this body. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ, ijya, ijya means worshipable. On account of this bodily concept of life they have taken that this earth or the place where the body is born, that has become worshipable. That is nationalism. Bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ. Sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu. And from my body there is relationship with my wife, with my children, therefore they are my own men. There are hundreds and thousands of women, but one woman who has got bodily connection, she's my wife. I have to do so many things for her. Similarly children, the bodily connection. The whole material civilization, nationalism, socialism, this ism, that ism, everything based on this bodily concept of life. But one who is in bodily concept of life, he is no better than cows and asses. So in the human form of life, because of the developed consciousness, there is inquiry, what I am. What I am. Am I this body or I'm something else other than this body? This is natural inquiry, and the Vedānta-sūtra begins from this inquiry. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. In the animal concept of life the inquiry is where is my food, where is my shelter, where is my sex, where is my defense. These inquiries. But when one comes to the human form of body, the inquiry should be, at least, that what I am. If I study myself, I think, if I take this finger, am I this finger? The answer will be no. It is my finger. So my eyes, my head, everything "mine." Then where is "I"? Unless this inquiry comes into the living form of life, human form of life, he's not a human being. He's animal because animals never inquire. He's satisfied. A dog is satisfied. He knows that "I am this body." According to the dog's body, he barks. That's all. No more inquiry. Therefore actual human form of life, actual business of human form of life, begins from this inquiry. Brahma-jijñāsā. So this brahma-jijñāsā is being explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, what is Brahman? That is, dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So dehī, the owner of the body, is Brahman. Therefore Vedic injunction is, "Just realize what you are." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. So it is not Hindu dharma or Indian dharma. It is natural inquiry of the living being when he's advanced in consciousness. So in the bodily concept of life, material necessities can be fulfilled by money or-eating, sleeping, mating. But because these things do not give satisfaction to the Western people anymore, because they have seen enough of them-eating, sleeping, sex life and defense-natural inquiry is what is Brahman? And that answer can be had from India, nowhere else. Therefore they have got inclination. Whenever they see some Indian swami, Indian person talking about spiritual, they flock. But they cheat. Instead of satisfying them... Now so far our International Society is concerned, we do not cheat. We speak the real truth. Here is God, Kṛṣṇa. Here you are. Your relationship is to serve Him. Do this. So they are doing that. Therefore we see a little success of this movement all over the world.
Guest (1): What is God to a layman, like me.
Prabhupāda: Layman, well, layman means, we already explained, he's no better than animal. Because layman means one who thinks that "I am this body." He's layman. He has no other information. So layman is equal to animal. So layman's education, layman's advancement is decoration of the dead body. If you decorate a dead body, you can feel satisfaction. But others will laugh, that "What a fool he is, he's decorating a dead body?" Bhagavad-bhakti-hīnasya jātiḥ śāstraṁ japas tapaḥ, aprāṇasyeva dehasya maṇḍanaṁ loka-rañjanam. Layman's business is decorating this dead body, that's all.
Guest (1): Yeah, but if you were to explain to him what is God, how would you explain to him.
Prabhupāda: Then, suppose, what you are? What is your business? What do you do? You're teacher, what is the subject matter?
Guest (1): I teach in law.
Prabhupāda: So if one wants to know what is law, he must become a student. It is not that simply asking "What is law, sir?" You can make him understand within a minute or within hour? Is it possible?
Guest (1): No.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśrama-dharma. Varṇāśramācaravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Anyone who has taken to this system of varṇāśrama-dharma, four varṇas: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra; and four āśrama: brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha, sannyāsa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brāhmaṇa, real, qualified brāhmaṇa. Therefore brāhmaṇa is respected. Because, brahma-jānātīti brāhmaṇa. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brāhmaṇa without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the kṣatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brāhmaṇa, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brāhmaṇa unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted. Therefore this varṇāśrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varṇāśrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varṇas and āśramas. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brāhmaṇa.
Guest (1): So in order to understand what is God one has to leave his family and come to some...
Prabhupāda: Why do you surmise like that? You do not know what is God. Why do you surmise your proposal?
Guest (1): No, I mean, ah...
Prabhupāda: Now why you are asking this question? You know, I've explained, that one has to become brāhmaṇa. There are still there are many brāhmaṇas, those who are with children. Even Caitanya Mahāprabhu, although He had no children, He was family man. Nityānanda Prabhu was family man, and Advaita Prabhu was family man. They're all brāhmaṇas, family men, but they knew what is God. The real thing is to know God. Not to, because everything is allowed. These eight, four varṇas and four āśramas. There is no such thing that one has to become, to come to this form of life or that form of life. So varṇāśramācaravatā. You must execute the varṇāśrama-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brāhmaṇa or kṣatriya or vaiśya or śūdra, that is a cooperation. Just like in your body there must be the head, there must be the arms, there must be the belly, and there must be the legs. By comparative study head is more important than the leg. But leg is also required. You cannot do without leg. Similarly, brāhmaṇa is the head, kṣatriya is the arms, vaiśya is the belly and śūdra is the leg. So as much I require my head so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone, madman. So at the present moment there is no brāhmaṇa, qualified. Therefore the society is in chaos. In chaotic condition, all are searching after something substantial. That is the position of the Western countries. They have heard so many things about India's culture. Still, they respect India's culture, spiritual culture. They are hankering after. But unfortunately the so-called yogis, swamis, come and cheat them. That is the difficulty. This is the first time that systematically we are presenting what is actual Vedic dharma or Bhāgavata-dharma. This question was raised by Rāmānanda Rāya before Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Varṇāśrama, he quoted this verse from Viṣṇu Purāṇa. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. "Yes, it is all right, varṇāśrama-dharma, but it is now external. If you know something better, you speak." So in this way the whole system was discussed. At last Caitanya Mahāprabhu approved this system of śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. Chanting and hearing about Viṣṇu. Varṇāśrama-dharma is also Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. The real purpose is understanding Viṣṇu the Supreme. So varṇāśrama-dharma is also meant for understanding Viṣṇu. Viṣṇur ārādhyate. So... But these formulas of brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, it is the, the age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varṇāśrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, eho bāhya, āge kaha āra. Yes, it is all right, but it is external now. It cannot be utilized at the present moment. So when Rāmānanda Rāya stated, citing one verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir ye prāyaśo 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyām. If one simply hears about Viṣṇu, never mind in whatever condition he is, then he can understand what is God. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatām. Śruti-gatām means hearing. Receiving from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. And in that way if he engages his body, his words, tanu-vāk, mind, then, although Lord Viṣṇu is Ajita, nobody can conquer Him, he can conquer. He can understand what is Viṣṇu, what is His function, what is my relationship with Him. All these things can be understood. Therefore we are propagating the same principle. We do not ask anyone: "First of all, you become brāhmaṇa. Then come here." No. Let him come and hear about Viṣṇu. We speak, discuss about Bhagavad-gītā. They hear. They hear Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. You have seen our books? So these books are discussed and gradually... If it is a fact, śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ, if one gives only aural reception to this transcendental message, then, although God is Ajita, nobody can conquer, He becomes conquered. So that is becoming, happening, that although they are American, European, Canadian, African, Australian, not all of them are Indian... Indians are also there. But because they are giving aural reception to this transcendental message, they are becoming enlightened. So anyone who will give aural reception to this message, first of all Bhagavad-gītā, entrance, then Bhāgavatam, then Caitanya-caritāmṛta, like books, then gradually, he'll be self-realized, fully cognizant what is God. What is God, this is... athāto brahma jijñāsā means what is God. So this institution is meant for giving chance to everyone to hear. It doesn't require education. Simply God has given him this ear. Let him receive the message from the ear. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhiḥ. This is the process. Very simple process. Simply to hear, sincerely, then everything will be done gradually. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has said, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. By hearing, the mirror of consciousness, consciousness is just like a mirror. It is now covered with dust. Mārjanam. Mirror, if you cleanse with a duster, then you can see clearly what is your face. So by this chanting process and hearing, gradually the dirty things in the heart will be cleansed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. Simply hearing about Kṛṣṇa is puṇya, pious activities. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Either you hear or you chant. Puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi. There are so many dirty things, nonsense things, within the heart. Hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi, vidhunoti, is washed. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. Who is...? Find out this verse. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ. In the First Canto, first part, Third Chapter. Where is Paṇḍita Mahārāja? Call him. Śṛṇvatām, you can find out in the index.
This process should be adopted. Hear about Kṛṣṇa. Without any prejudice. Then everything will be... S-r, yes?
Śrutakīrti: S-i?
Prabhupāda: Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ.
Śrutakīrti: S-i-n?
Prabhupāda: R. Sva-kathāḥ. Yes. What...
Śrutakīrti: Sva-pathaḥ?
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. You are not learning, only Paṇḍita Gosāñi is required. Where is Paṇḍita Gosāñi?
Śrutakīrti: He went to...
Guest (1): Can I have a look at it please?
Prabhupāda: Yes, give him. Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrāṇi [SB 1.2.17]. (speaks some Bengali. Asks some Indians if they know Bengali, where they are from.)
Śrutakīrti: It's not in the Third Chapter.
Prabhupāda: Let me see. First Canto, where it is?
Śrutakīrti: S-i?
Prabhupāda: S-r.
Śrutakīrti: S-r, śṛṇ, oh.
Prabhupāda: Śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. You could not find? Here it is.
Śrutakīrti: I was looking s-i.
Prabhupāda: Find out.
Prabhupāda: Second Canto, no?
Śrutakīrti: 107 Second Chapter.
Prabhupāda: Second Chapter, Second Chapter, seventeenth verse, yes.
Prabhupāda: Vidhunoti suhṛt satām. What is the meaning?
Śrutakīrti: "Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramātmā, Supersoul, in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted."
Prabhupāda: This is the process. If you hear about Kṛṣṇa, then Kṛṣṇa is within yourself. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe 'rjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. When he sees you are anxious, then he helps you in cleansing the dirty things within your heart. Purport read?
Śrutakīrti: Messages of the Personality of Godhead Śrī Kṛṣṇa are nondifferent from Him. Whenever, therefore, offenseless hearing and glorification of God are undertaken, it is to be understood that Lord Kṛṣṇa is present there in the form of transcendental sound, which is as powerful as the Lord personally. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, in His Śikṣāṣṭaka, declares clearly that the holy name of the Lord has all the potencies of the Lord and that He has endowed His innumerable names with the same potency. There is no rigid fixture of time, and anyone can chant the holy name with attention and reverence at his convenience. The Lord is so kind to us that He can be present before us personally in the form of transcendental sound, but unfortunately we have no taste for hearing and glorifying the Lord's name and activities. We have already discussed developing a taste for hearing and chanting the holy sound. It is done through the medium of service to the pure devotee of the Lord.
The Lord is reciprocally respondent to His devotees. When He sees that a devotee is completely sincere in getting admittance to the transcendental service of the Lord and has thus become eager to hear about Him, the Lord acts from within the devotee in such a way that the devotee may easily go back to Him. The Lord is more anxious to take us back into His kingdom than we can desire. Most of us do not desire at all to go back to Godhead. Only a very few men want to go back to Godhead. But anyone who desires to go back to Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa helps in all respects.
One cannot enter into the kingdom of God unless one is perfectly cleared of all sins. The material sins are products of our desires to lord it over material nature. It is very difficult to get rid of such desires. Women and wealth are very difficult problems for the devotee making progress on the path back to Godhead. Many stalwarts in the devotional line fell victim to these allurements and thus retreated from the path of liberation. But when one is helped by the Lord Himself, the whole process becomes as easy as anything by the divine grace of the Lord.
To become restless in the contact of women and wealth is not an astonishment, because every living being is associated with such things from remote time, practically immemorial, and it takes time to recover from this foreign nature. But if one is engaged in hearing the glories of the Lord, gradually he realizes his real position. By the grace of God such a devotee gets sufficient strength to defend himself from the state of disturbances, and gradually all disturbing elements are eliminated from his mind.
Prabhupāda: The prescribed methods are there. We have to adopt it. Without adopting the prescribed method, nobody can advance. But in this age the prescribed method is very simple. Simply to hear the holy name of the Lord.
harer nāma harer nāma harer nāma eva kevalam
kalau nāsty eva nāsty eva nāsty eva gatir anyathā
[Cc. Ādi 17.21]
So an urge for understanding God, there is, after struggle for material sense gratification. Bodily concept of life means material sense gratification. The Western world is after that, material sense gratification. One who is little advanced, he wants to know more than material sense gratification. That is good sign and those who are simply absorbed in material sense gratification, they are in the lower stage of animal life. So what is the present civilization, Western, what is your opinion? What they are for?
Guest (2): I don't know actually. I'm a doc. I'm trying to find some answer but what difference does it make? Suppose a person thinks of God all his life and dies, and a person who doesn't think of God at all also dies. What is our life after death?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): Then why do we have to think of God? Why do we have to forget about the material world?
Prabhupāda: First of all you have to understand that there is life after death.
Guest (2): Why, is it a faith or belief?
Prabhupāda: No, it is not faith, belief. It is a fact. Just like, I have already given you the example. You were a child. That body's no longer existing, but you know that you were a child. Therefore the conclusion is that although the body has changed, but you the soul, the knower, is still there. Therefore, when this body will be changed, you'll exist in another body.
Guest (2): In what form?
Prabhupāda: That is another thing. First of all you have to accept this fact, that you have to change this body. As you have already changed so many times. Tathā... Kṛṣṇa first of all says tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Antara, another body you have to accept.
Guest (2): Coming back to your own question of the present world and to what we are in...
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest (2): Coming back to your first question when you asked that what do you think about this present world or the present trend of present civilization...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not know. Even big, big professors. I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. He said, "Swamiji, after annihilation of this body, there is nothing."
Guest (2): Well, that has brought this disaster and is causing more and more trouble, I think. More and more in practice of medicine, if we look into the practice of medicine, I think, we are more pressed with the problem of mental illness. I should say in the region of thirty percent of our time is devoted for people suffering from mental anxiety, which we call "anxiety state" and partly depression. I think most of the time, I surmise... Part of the problem is not that they are not well-fed, it is not that they are not well-dressed. Part of the problem is to accept as they are and to think of something which is present, I mean they could believe that there is something beyond this world, and if they can accept that, probably they will be better off and they will accept their present inconveniences more easily and will not be depressed.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (2): And that is the present problem.
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā: mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. Sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ
mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya
āgamāpāyino 'nityās
tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
[Bg. 2.14]
If one is engaged in his cultivation of spiritual life, then he should tolerate all these bodily pains and pleasure. Because they come and go. Just like you are medical man, you treat, some patient. Suppose he's attacked with fever. Everyone knows that fever has come; after some time, it will go away. So the one who is cultivating Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he's not very much disturbed with fever. He knows that it has come, it will go automatically. If we fast for few days. There is a Bengali proverb, jvaranpar ketanadali palab...(?) If you receive one unwanted guest and fever, you don't give him eat. Then it will go away. Unwanted guest, if you do not give him food, he'll go away. Even a fever also, if you don't eat, it will go automatically. So after all, these things come and go. The example is given, śīta-uṣṇa. Śīta means winter and uṣṇa means summer. As the summer comes and go, winter comes and go, so these kinds of sufferings, they come and go. So Kṛṣṇa is advising, tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Therefore a brāhmaṇa's qualification is titikṣa. Śamo damaḥ śaucaṁ titikṣa, toleration. They're not very much bothered with the bodily pains and pleasure. They come and go. They're engaged in real business, how to realize Brahman. So if one is engaged in the prime business of life, Brahman understanding, athāto brahma jijñāsā, for him these bodily pains and pleasure becomes minor things. Therefore, we see such examples, that one saintly person is living in the Himalayan mountain. There is snowfall, there is no proper place, still they live. Still, there are many. But nowadays it is not possible. Voluntarily, they used to go to the forest, to the Himalaya, just to tolerate these pains and pleasure of the body equally and engage in their own business of spiritual understanding. That is human civilization. Human civilization, that is described, tapo divyam. For the supreme spiritual realization one should undergo tapasya. Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke kaṣṭān kāmān arhate viḍ-bhujāṁ ye [SB 5.5.1]. It is the instruction of Rṣabhadeva that this body... Everyone has got body, cats and dogs and hogs, they have got body. We have also body. The kings and demigods, they have got body. Everyone has got body. But especially the body of... Nāyaṁ deho deha-bhājāṁ nṛloke. In the human society. This body is not meant for kaṣṭān kāmān, to satisfy sense gratification with very, very hard labor like the hogs and dogs. Then what it is meant for? Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena sattvaṁ śuddhyed [SB 5.5.1]. "My dear boys, this body is meant for tapasya." Why tapasya? Your question. Yena śuddhyed. Your existence will be purified. Yasmād brahma-saukhyaṁ tv anantam. Then you'll get perpetual, blissful life. So everyone is seeking after blissful life, but that is not possible in this materialistic way of life. That is not possible. One must seek blissful life in spiritual understanding, brahma-saukhyam, brahma-sukha. That is required. Transcendental pleasure. Ramante yogino 'nante satyānande cid-ātmani. Satyānande, real happiness, in the spiritual understanding, spiritual platform. Iti rāma-padenāsau paraṁ brahmābhidhīyate [Cc. Madhya 9.29]. That kind of enjoyment is called rāma. Ramaṇa. From ramaṇa, rāma. That is wanted. So there is no education at the present moment. But people are hankering. Western people especially. They've have seen enough of this material enjoyment, now they are hankering after their spiritual life. Therefore they look forward towards the Vedic culture. This is the answer.
Guest (3) (Indian man): What is the purpose of Lord for creating human life or animal life or so many things? Why...?
Prabhupāda: That is, that is next question, that you have to accept next body, but what kind of body you'll have? That you can see, that there are so many varieties of life, body. You have to accept one of them. Just like when you were admitted into school for education. The idea was that you'll be educated, and according to your education, there are so many posts you'll have to occupy. Just like you are lawyer, he's medical man, somebody's engineer, somebody else, somebody... Varieties or field of activities. So according to the perfection of one's education, he has to accept one post like that. Similarly, next body means according to your karma. Karmaṇā daiva-netreṇa jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. You are preparing your next Life. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:
So according to your culture, mentality, your condition of life will be at the end of your life. Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran bhāvaṁ tyajaty ante kalevaram, sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]. The whole life, as we have thought, as we have absorbed in thought, the same mentality will be concentrated at the time of your death. So, a god's mentality, or dog's mentality or hog's mentality, or... There are so many kinds of. So you'll get next body according to that mentality.
Guest (2): Yes. Can you scientifically prove this, sir? I mean is it purely a matter of belief or...
Prabhupāda: This is science. Our science is perfect science. Because we are receiving knowledge from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. And the so-called science is imperfect because the knowledge is received from imperfect person. However great scientist you may be, you have to admit that your senses are imperfect.
Guest (3): Yes.
Prabhupāda: So imperfect senses can give imperfect knowledge. That is not scientific knowledge. What you are thinking scientific knowledge, that is bogus. Because the man who has given that knowledge, he's imperfect. How you can expect perfect knowledge from the imperfect person?
Guest (2): It's a question of degree.
Prabhupāda: Now, degree may be, but ultimately, if you are unable to give perfect knowledge, then what is the use of taking knowledge from you?
Guest (2): Yes, I accept that view. But how do you prove that a man...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore you take from the perfect, Kṛṣṇa. We take from Kṛṣṇa's representative. One who speaks as good as Kṛṣṇa. That is our process. Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. We don't take, don't accept knowledge from any rascal. We accept knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme. I may be rascal, but because I am receiving knowledge from the perfect, whatever we speak, that is perfect. A child may be innocent he does not know. But he has learned that this article is called spectacle. So when he says, the child says, "Father, this is spectacle." This is perfect knowledge. Similarly, if you hear from the perfect and act accordingly, then you are perfect. Now Kṛṣṇa says, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. After death there is another body. So we accept it. It doesn't require any proof of so-called science who's imperfect.
Guest (2): So the question of belief comes first.
Prabhupāda: It is not belief, it is fact.
Guest (2): Yes, but if you say fact, how do you prove?
Prabhupāda: This is proof, Kṛṣṇa says.
Guest (2): It has been said by Kṛṣṇa. Yes, but...,
Prabhupāda: That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgement, previous judgement, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect. And now you have to possess little knowledge. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, how Kṛṣṇa is perfect. Kṛṣṇa is giving example side, by side. Yathā, dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe, as there is the soul, there is the soul, asmin dehe, and he's having different types of bodies, kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā. He's changing body from childhood, boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to another state. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. Where is the illogical presentation? This is scientific. For an intelligent man, this is scientific. And if he's still dull-headed, then what can be done? Kṛṣṇa gives example. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ. As the soul is changing body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, like that. Similarly, after finishing this body, it may be invisible to you, but the subtle body is there. We have got two kinds of bodies. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. This material, eight kinds of materials—earth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego. So when your body of earth, water, fire, air... Now in the... Now here is a medical man. He knows about this body made of earth, water, fire, air. But he does not know, perhaps, the body made of mind, intelligence and ego. Do you think so? That there is another body made of mind, intelligence and ego?
Guest (2): Not, not in that sense.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The mind is there. Everyone knows, you have got mind, I have got mind. But can you see the mind? Can you see the intelligence?
Guest (1): These are something abstract, you know.
Prabhupāda: No, not abstract. These are material. You have no eyes to see.
Guest (1): Well, at present, we can, we have got three different methods of studying intelligence starting from six months onward up to the adult.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, you accept. That is my point. Now you are studying, you accept. That means you accept there is intelligence. So besides this material body, gross material body, there is a subtle body. Subtle body. Just like besides your coat, there is a shirt, or there is a ganjee (?). Similarly, the soul is covered by the subtle body and the gross body. What is known as death, that is annihilation of the gross body. The subtle body remains there. And the subtle body carries him as he desires. The subtle body carries him to a place where he can again grow another material body according to the desire of the mind.
Guest (1): You mean the subtle body or the soul, the same thing?
Prabhupāda: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gītā.
indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir
yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
[Bg. 3.42]
First of all, gross understanding. This body means the senses. Indriyāṇi. Those who are animals, they are thinking this is all. But they do not understand that these indriyas are being controlled by the mind. If one's mind is, what is called, distorted, then the indriyas cannot work. That is madman. You try to cure the mental disease just to bring him in proper position to control the senses. Otherwise, he does not know how to control the senses. Therefore the controller of the senses is the mind. And above the mind there is intelligence. And above the intelligence there is soul. So we cannot see even the mind, intelligence and ego. And how we can see the soul? The soul has got his magnitude. And without understanding, without education about the soul, about the spirit soul, any other understanding, that is animal understanding. (pause) Give him prasāda.
Guest (4) (English woman): Could I ask please, if prāṇa is the life force, isn't it? Is it the prāṇa is the life force, isn't it?
Pradyumna: Says like prāṇa is the life force.
Guest (4): Is it in different parts of the body?
Prabhupāda: These are air. Prāṇa, in the prāṇa, air, the soul floats. Therefore the controlling the air is called prāṇāyāma. That is yogic process.
Guest (4): Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Prāṇa is a life air which carries the soul. It is very small, atomic. And not our men. Give her. She's answered. (laughs) Give her one.
Guest (4): Thank you.
Prabhupāda: Give her one, that girl. Give all. (Bengali) You are a lawyer. (Bengali) That is not your business. You must know it.
Guest (3): (Bengali)
Prabhupāda: That's a good qualification.
Guest (3): No.
Prabhupāda: Why should you be bad qualified? (Bengali) Logic, it is logical. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Where is the illogic. You have passed your childhood body, you have passed your youth-hood body, you are in a different body. Although you are in a different body, you are existing. What better logic you can discover? You cannot discover any better logic than this. Don't accuse that we are illogical, don't accuse. We are logical, completely logical. But we have got brain to understand. Yes. Logic, you can put forward, but one must have the brain to understand it. If one is dull like stone, how he can understand logic? This is very clear logic. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na... [Bg. 2.13], dhīraḥ, one who is sober, coolheaded, he understands. "Yes, it is all right."
Guest (2): I have taken quite a lot of your time, if you'll excuse me.
Prabhupāda: No, my time is for this purpose, provided you kindly take it. But if you don't take it, then of course, that is a different thing. My time is spent for... I have dedicated my life for this purpose. I am touring all over the world giving this knowledge. It is sound logic. If you don't accept, you must give better logic, what you know. Don't think we are going under sentiment. Don't think like that. We have got sound logic.
Guest (2): I won't say that, but I'm not mentally prepared to that extent.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but if you are not prepared, then you learn how to become prepared. Then the same conclusion comes, that logic, you can give to the animals, but he cannot take it.
Guest (2): I don't think that logic can explain anything.
Prabhupāda: No, logic cannot. But still as much logic you require, that logic is there.
Guest (2): Yes, but I don't know what Mr. Howard wants logic about, I don't know. But logic cannot explain anything and everything. And if mathematics or arithmetic, if we go through them, at one stage we can prove ten is equal to zero or nine is equal to zero. It is also possible by step by step...
Prabhupāda: That may be possible, but it has no practical use. It has no practical use. If the banker gives you zero and you accept nine, then it is practical. But if you theoretically say all these things, that you may keep it in your pocket, but practically it has no use. Nine equal to zero and two equal to zero. That is not practical use.
Guest (2): As far as logic, I don't think logic can explain anything and everything.
Prabhupāda: No, then it is skepticism. There is no progress of knowledge. There is no progress of knowledge. As far as man can understand, as Mr., you are Mr. Bannerji?
Guest (1): Mr. Howler. (?)
Prabhupāda: Howler? Yes. So, there is little logic there, as a human being can understand. That's all. And if we accept this theory, that logic, our logic is imperfect, we cannot understand, then we have to accept authority. Just like a child. Mother says, "Here is your father." There is no logic. There is no logic. He has to accept. Only the mother version is logic, That's all. Authority. Is it not?
Guest (1): Yes, that's true.
Prabhupāda: Then where there is no logic, the authority must be accepted. Therefore we accept that authority. Śabda-pramāṇa. The best evidence. Śabda-pramāṇa. There are different evidences. Out of that, veda-pramāṇa, śabda-pramāṇa is first class. All right, thank you very much. Jaya.
Mukunda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Pearl has been attending our temple and following the regulative principles.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Mukunda: And she wants to become initiated.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Pearl: I would like to have a Sanskrit name too please.
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, you'll have.
Pearl: Thank you.
Prabhupāda: You'll have. You like to be bald-headed?
Pearl: (laughs) No, I think I'll keep my hair if you don't mind. I can't give up everything.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Pearl: If my leg could be healed, and I want to advance spiritually.
Prabhupāda: Well, leg, you are different from leg. Yes. Even leg is not healed, you can be healed.
Pearl: You mean healed spiritually.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is real healing.
Pearl: Because it's keeping me from things I should be doing you see. I can't meet all my responsibilities through it.
Prabhupāda: Give me little water. When they come to logic, when they give logic. (laughter)
Guest (1): Prabhupāda, they don't want any.
Prabhupāda: That is the dog's obstinacy. That is the mentality.
Guest (1): They lost their intelligence, by this civilization or by this culture.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Adānta-gobhir, by losing that intelligence they are going to the hell. They do not know it. Adānta-gobhir viśatāṁ tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. By uncontrolled senses... Because as soon as they come to spiritual life, they have to control senses. So that they do not like. That is very difficult.
Guest (1): Like he said: "I'm not prepared for that."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually they are not prepared. Then you suffer.
Guest (1): Then you try to be prepared.
Prabhupāda: They are not prepared because as soon as they understand that they are going to be one these varieties of life, they shudder. Therefore they do not like to understand this. If by logic I prove that you are going to be a dog next life, that is very difficult. Just like one astrologer has said that Jawaharlal Nehru has become a dog in Sweden. You know that?
Guest (1): No, I don't.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In Delhi, one astrologer.
Guest (1): Delhi, some astrologer said?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): What does the government of India say about that, any comment?
Prabhupāda: That I do not know.
Guest (1): Are they going to worship there? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Well, they do not believe in astrology. Therefore they cannot take any step. They do not believe in next life, so they cannot take any step. And whether it is a fact or not, because they do not believe in next life, so what is the use of taking step? Is it as good as to say that Jawaharlal Nehru has become Indra. If somebody says like that, so they'll have to discard this thing also, and they have to discard that thing also. Because they do not believe in the next life. Simply by presenting Bhagavad-gītā as it is, we can defy all these rascals. Everything is there. Bhagavad-gītā was not presented as it is. That is the defect. The first thing is: tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. Nobody understands. And they are students of Bhagavad-gītā. Even Gandhi, he did not understand, dehāntara-prāptiḥ. All these political leaders, they do not understand what is dehāntara-prāptiḥ. What do you think, Bhadra Kṛṣṇa? The dehāntara-prāptiḥ, do they understand?
Bhadra Kṛṣṇa: It's not something known.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They do not understand.
Guest (1): (Bengali) Gandhiji, he was politician, he was actually not devotee, and he could not understand Bhagavad-gītā. But how the name of Rāma has come when he died? The name of Rāma, Hare Rāma, has come from his last word. How it has come. It is, it is...
Prabhupāda: Practice, practice. Raghupati rāghava rājā rāma.
Guest (1): So that came at the last word.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): It is due to his pious or practice.
Prabhupāda: Practice. That will act, that will act, that will act.
Guest (1): So this was my question about how, he was not acting, but...,
Prabhupāda: No. He did not know. But because he was chanting raghupati rāghava rājā rāma, that has given him this effect, yes. On account of chanting. But he really did not understand. Just like the same example, the Mohammedan. He said "hā rāma." He wanted to speak "hārāma," but it become "hā rāma." That is the... He did not know anything about Rāma, but the name Rāma is so powerful that although he said, "hārāma," it effected. Yes. But Gandhi may not know the purpose of Bhagavad-gītā, but as he chanted "hā rāma," that has been effective.
Pearl: I wondered what "Rāma" meant when we say the mantra, Hare Rāma, you see.
Prabhupāda: Rāma means...
Guest (3): So it was not due to his pious activities, but only he was practicing.
Prabhupāda: No, that is pious activity, that is pious activity.
Guest (1): That is why at the time of death he spoke Rāma, raghupati rāghava rājā rāma.
Prabhupāda: He was a pious man.
Guest (1): He was pious man.
Prabhupāda: Undoubtedly.
Guest (1): So he chanted "Rāma" in practice.
Prabhupāda: Daily he was chanting raghupati rāghava rājā rāma. So...,
Guest (3): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. Where this chanting effect will go? Yes. The chanting... Hare Kṛṣṇa. But I mean to say that he could not teach what Rāma.
Guest (1): (laughs) No.
Prabhupāda: That is his misfortune. But in spite of his misfortune, because he was practiced to chant the name of Rāma, he was pious. Although he was ignorant. He was absorbed in thought of politics. He should have, if he would have understood that Rāma is a fact, Kṛṣṇa is a fact... That he did not understand. Then he would have preached the glories of Rāma, glories of Kṛṣṇa. He took the chanting of Rāma for his political purposes. He utilized for political purpose. Just like... That is nāma-aparādha. Samaḥ śubha-kriyā mati pramāṇaḥ (?). He was trying to get some material profit by chanting the holy name of Rāma. That he got, material profit. He was the most famous politician, all over the world.
Guest (1): But he did not accept any post, you know that? At the same time...,
Prabhupāda: But he also accepted "Mahatma" although what...
Guest (1): But not political post.
Prabhupāda: That is another trick, it may be. Or he did not like. It may be. Because he was so great, what is the presidency? Presidency elected post for five years. But he was recognized all over the world as a great leader. That is greater than any president's post or prime minister's post. So that is not much. But the thing is that if he was actually aware of the importance of Rāma, that he did not. He took it, "Rāma" as some means for his political purpose. But still it effected. At the time of death he said, "Rāma." So...
Guest (1): So you think he has gone to heaven or some, what is his position?
Prabhupāda: No... But because he did not understand Rāma, therefore he cannot go to the kingdom of God. But he'll get very high position.
Guest (1): High position.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. He may go to the heavenly planet
Guest (1): Still in the material world.
Śrutakīrti: He said he's still in the material world. Heavenly planets is still the material world.
Prabhupāda: Heaven is in the material world. Heaven is in the material world. You can get greater standard of life, greater duration of life, that's all. Higher standard of life. Just like Brahmā. Brahmā's one day you cannot calculate. He's so powerful, how he's created this universe. But he is in the material world. He's also a living entity like us, but very exalted. So he cannot get the post of Brahmā. But he can get life in higher planetary system. That is certain. That is explained in the, find out that verse. That is explained in That verse, yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe [Bg. 6.41]. But he did not understand Bhagavad-gītā, that's a fact.
Guest (1): But what about this position of Vālmīki or Rāmāyaṇa?
Prabhupāda: They went to the kingdom of God. They knew what is Rāma.
Guest (1): They knew.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not in vague understanding.
Guest (1): They wouldn't be able to write Rāmāyaṇa if he didn't understand Lord Rāmacandra?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He had meditated for sixty thousands of years.
Guest (1): But I think it was Gandhi who said that Kurukṣetra is this body, five Pāṇḍavas is the five senses and this is all interpretation concoction.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) He did not understand, that's a fact. But even this child, he does not understand, but if he chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, that will be effective. If he understands or not understand. It doesn't matter.
Guest (1): The name is so powerful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that?
Prabhupāda: Ah, prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān. This is the... So puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān means heavenly planet. Prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān. You cannot go to the heavenly planet unless you are very pious. So he's promoted in heavenly planet where the duration of life is very long, standard of living is very nice. But there is no Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What is that, prāpya puṇya-kṛtāṁ lokān?
Prabhupāda: Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ. For a very long time. Because to get life in the heavenly planets means at least ten thousands of years. In their calculation. Their one day is equal to six months. In that way ten thousand years. Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ. What is it? Uṣitvā śāśvatīḥ samāḥ?
Prabhupāda: Then, again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brāhmaṇa family, śucīnām, or very rich, vaiśya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Kṛṣṇa conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower grade life, then what is the profit? Kṛṣṇa gives His straight understanding, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti: [Bg. 4.9] You become Kṛṣṇa conscious. After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. "You come direct to Me." That is perfection. You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī says, kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pur ākāśa-puṣpāyate. Tridaśa-pur means the heavenly planets. Ākāśa, it is just like will of the wisp. Something, just like, what do you say Hindi? There are many proverbs, which has no existence. Just like in Bengali we say ghoḍā-ḍima. Ghoḍa-ḍima. Ḍima means egg. The horse never lays down egg. But the word is running on: "the egg of horse." So it has no existence but the word is there. Similarly, what do you say in Hindi? Something which has no existence but it is current. I think there is.
Guest (1): Hawaikila (?).
Prabhupāda: Hawaikila, yes. Hawaikila means in the air there is a fort. It is something like, the Vaiṣṇava considers the heavenly planets, that hawaikila. That's all.
Guest (1): This rich birth is important for self-realization?
Prabhupāda: Next birth?
Devotees: Rich birth, to be born in a rich family.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. But there is facility. Because people are harassed for getting food and shelter. Everyone is working so hard where to get nice food, where to get nice shelter. Rich man means he has already got. So if he's sane, if he's good, has got good association, direction, then he can think, that "I have no anxiety for my food, shelter and other necessities of life. So how I shall utilize my time?" And if he gets good guru, then he can utilize very nicely, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is a chance. He hasn't got to work. Because people are very much perplexed how to get shelter, how to get food. But he has got the chance. He hasn't got to endeavor for food and shelter and other necessities of the body. Ample he has got. He can save time for spiritual advancement. That is an advantage. It is not necessary. It is almost disadvantage. But actually it is advantage. Unfortunately, those who are born in rich family, they take advantage of it that "I have got so much money, let me enjoy sense gratification." Māyā dictates, "Oh, you have got so much money. Utilize for wine-woman." That's all.
Guest (1): People say about Uraya Karan Singh...
Prabhupāda: Karan Singh?
Guest (1): ...of Kashmir, he's a very pious man, and because rich birth and he is a pious as well, is it?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): Very religious and...
Prabhupāda: No, I have seen him. He's religious temperament. Not very. He loves Kṛṣṇa. No, he's a good man.
Guest (1): That's a good example, example like that.
Guest (1): Likes the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Yes, he's a good man. He's good scholar also, educated.
Guest (1): He was coming but I don't know why he has not come due to this...? This last year hearing Bhāgavatam discourses he accepted he would come come. We got his letter also.
Prabhupāda: This is due to government post.
Guest (1): And he also accepted an invitation, we invited him, He said he'd also come, but this Pakistan war started.
Prabhupāda: Still there are so many respectable person came. The governor came, the high-court justices and that, the Canadian ambassador came. Many men came. And he was very humble. He sat down below.
Guest (1): You didn't see the high commissioner there. He sat down.
Prabhupāda: He's also a very nice man.
Guest (1): Maybe some pious activities that they have.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Guest (1): But this is their duty to respect.
Prabhupāda: [break] this planet. In order to be elevated to the kingdom of God, they cannot go directly from the heavenly planet. They'll have to come here.
Guest (1): There are many stories in Mahābhārata. Many, many kings, they went to heavenly planets and from there. Many stories.
Prabhupāda: Kṣīṇe puṇye martya-lokaṁ viśanti [Bg. 9.21]. You have got prasāda? Not yet. Come on. Any more? Any more? Another? Come on. (end)
Room Conversation
with Sanskrit Professor,
Dr. Suneson

September 5, 1973, Stockholm
Prabhupāda: What else?
Śrutakīrti: The vegetable.
Prabhupāda: What type vegetable?
Śrutakīrti: Cauliflower and peas and everything.
Prabhupāda: Oh, they have got cauliflower?
Śrutakīrti: Yes, they have cauliflower and tomatoes.
Prabhupāda: So you can give also two parāṭās to me.
Śrutakīrti: Now, you mean.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And milk, you have got?
Śrutakīrti: Yes. They have got. I think there's one other guest coming, isn't there.
Pradyumna: Is the professor coming?
Devotee: He was supposed to come a half an hour ago.
Śrutakīrti: There was a guest who was supposed to be here one half hour ago.
Pradyumna: He's a little late.
Śrutakīrti: So I'll bring it down. [break]
Prabhupāda: These are our books. You have seen?
Professor: Yes, sir, I've seen... Some of them, I've seen. This one in particular I have seen.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are... This is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. There are sixty volumes, books like this.
Professor: Sixty volumes like this?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sixty volumes. And you can see how we are doing Sanskrit.
Professor: Transliteration.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Transliteration and word meaning, then translation, then purport.
Professor: Yes, I've studied the text myself.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Professor: I've studied the text myself.
Prabhupāda: I see. You have studied? How do you like it?
Professor: Yes, I like it very much.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Professor: I'm very interested in the bhakti.
Prabhupāda: Which one you have studied?
Professor: Oh, well, I haven't read all of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa, but of course, this Tenth Chapter I read.
Prabhupāda: Tenth Canto?
Professor: Yes, the Tenth Canto I read. And other parts, other parts also.
Prabhupāda: Oh. We have begun from the First Canto, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. You show him the verse, janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. This is First.
Pradyumna: First Volume.
Professor: Yes.
Pradyumna: After introduction.
Professor: Yes, yes, it's...
Prabhupāda: Janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijñaḥ svarāṭ tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye... [SB 1.1.1]. Like that.
Professor: You belong to the Caitanya...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. We have translated Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
Professor: Oh?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is one chapter, only, sample.
Professor: In the Bengali script. That's good.
Prabhupāda: Yes, in... Caitanya-caritāmṛta is in Bengali.
Professor: I've read also, I've read parts of that also.
Prabhupāda: Caitanya... Original Bengali?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So you know Bengali?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, thank you.
Professor: Yes. Sanskrit and Hindi and Bengali and Tamil.
Prabhupāda: Oh, oh, that's nice.
Professor: So I read lot of the Tamil bhakti scriptures.
Prabhupāda: Oh, I see.
Professor: The Alwars and the Nayanas.
Prabhupāda: I see. Just a..., immediately he came, Dāmodara, the Ambassador. He came just now.
Professor: Yes. Oh, he came just now?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor: He has left now?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, Ambassador Dāmodara. He was... Just prior to your coming, he was also meeting with Śrīla Prabhupāda, yes.
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just a half and hour before, he was here.
Professor: I see, I see. I know him well.
Prabhupāda: He's coming from Malayalam.
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So we can see, you can see how we have done.
Professor: Do you recite this also, Caitanya-caritāmṛta?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Professor: Do you think you could do a little?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor: I would be very interested.
Pradyumna: Glasses.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Shall I read? You want?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: All right. (pause) This is...
Professor: If you could read some of the Bengali part. Of course, in the beginning there are some Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Only one verse.
Professor: Some Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor: But the pure Bengali.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
You understand Bengali?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Or shall I explain?
Professor: Oh, well, I understand.
Prabhupāda: All right.
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: (Chants many verses from Ādi 1.7 in Bengali) ...kāśīra māyāvādī. You know kāśīra māyāvādī?
Professor: Yes. Yes, a little.
Prabhupāda: Vṛndāvana yāite prabhu... (continues chanting) ...vasilā sei sthāne. You want to hear more?
Professor: No, thank you.
Prabhupāda: So, in this way, we have given Sanskrit, here, the transliteration. Just like
Here is the transliteration. Āra, dine, gelā, prabhu, se, vipra, bhavane, dekhilena, vasiyāchena, sannyāsīra, gaṇe.
Professor: Hm. How many volumes is this one, when it's complete?
Prabhupāda: This is only one chapter.
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And you know how many chapters there are. How many chapters?
Pradyumna: Seventeen in the first part, about twenty something in the second part...
Professor: Second part.
Pradyumna: Thirty something in Third Part.
Professor: Yes, about sixty altogether. A little more than sixty.
Prabhupāda: So how many, all...? Sixty.
Professor: Sixty, sixty-five...
Prabhupāda: So, at least, fifty volumes like this.
Professor: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you introduce in your university?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: You see.
Professor: Yes, yes. I like myself also to acquire this one.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You see how we have translated. I have given transliteration and word to word meaning. You are scholar, you can understand. So we want to introduce this literature in the Universities.
Professor: Hm, Hm, yes...
Prabhupāda: Everything, you can see.
Professor: Have you translated also the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Professor: All of it...? Or...
Prabhupāda: Yes, all of it. Nectar of Devotion.
Paramahaṁsa: Do you have, Nectar of Devotion?
Professor: And also this Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Professor: Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi?
Prabhupāda: Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi. No, Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi is not for general study.
Professor: No, it's...
Prabhupāda: It is, it is for high, advanced devotee. You have seen our Bhagavad-gītā?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Just down. You can see.
Paramahaṁsa: Dr. Suneson is also a friend of Dr. Bernhart and Dr. Stahl, Prof. Stahl in Berkeley.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Professor: Bernhardt, I know, I know...
Paramahaṁsa: He knows them. And both of these gentlemen have Śrīla Prabhupāda's literature in their universities, in their libraries.
Professor: Hm, hm.
Prabhupāda: This book is recommended in the Temple University as textbook.
Professor: Hm, hm. This one.
Prabhupāda: Nectar of Devotion. This is Caitanya-caritā..., I mean to say, Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. Yes. "The summary study of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī's Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu."
Professor: Hm, hm? So it's the complete text?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Complete. You can read from any portion; you'll find so nice description. Anywhere from, you can read. Yes.
Professor: But original text is not given.
Prabhupāda: Then it will be very big volume. Therefore we have given summary study. But if time we get, we shall give the original text also. [break]
Professor: translating this Ṣaṭ-sandarbha. It is very voluminous.
Prabhupāda: Ṣaṭ-sandarbha.
Professor: Yaḥ.
Prabhupāda: Not yet.
Professor: No, no sense in this...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Jīva Gosvāmī.
Professor: Yes, also his books are very long.
Prabhupāda: I, I, I am doing alone.
Professor: Also Gopāla-campū.
Prabhupāda: Gopāla-campū, yes, not yet done.
Professor: No. That's what I have.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Professor: I've read part of that.
Prabhupāda: Oh. I see.
Professor: Gopāla-campū.
Prabhupāda: Then you have read many of our Vaiṣṇava literatures.
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice.
Professor: Also in Tamil. I'm partic... I'm doing also comparative studies between those in the Sanskrit and Tamil. Do you know Tamil?
Prabhupāda: No.
Professor: No. They also have a big collection.
Prabhupāda: I don't know anything. (laughter)
Professor: What? What? (pause) Do you have this, the Tenth Canto of the Bhāgavatam?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Professor: Which? Here. Or...?
Pradyumna: That's Kṛṣṇa Book.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa Book. [break]
Professor: ...take you to translate?
Prabhupāda: I am doing in my dictaphone daily one tape. One tape, about how many pages?
Pradyumna: Ten to twelve pages.
Prabhupāda: And he's editing. After typing, he edits, and then it is gone to the press. In this way, our work is going on.
Professor: Do you have the original here of the Bhāgavata Purāṇa?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Professor: Could I see it? Is it any...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is only Fifth Canto. We have got... You can bring that book, black bound.
Pradyumna: Here's others.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pradyumna: Third Canto also.
Prabhupāda: Oh, here is. [break] ...eight commentaries by different ācāryas. So I read all the commentaries and give my own. In this way, we are doing. Yes.
Professor: Where do you have these eight commentaries? Are they found in this edition or...?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vīrarāghava Ācārya, Jīva Gosvāmī, Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura. Here is the original text, type. It is in Bengali type. [break]
Professor: ...does this one have?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Professor: How many commentaries does this one...?
Prabhupāda: Oh, here. Only Śrīdhara Svāmī's. One commentary.
Professor: That's the one I have read, Śrīdhara's.
Prabhupāda: Śrīdhara's?
Professor: Yes, only Śrīdhara's. Because it's difficult to get the other commentaries.
Prabhupāda: No, they are available.
Professor: Yes, I'm trying, but...
Prabhupāda: [break] No. (On) purpose we have not translated because they are not meant for ordinary reading. They are meant for Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Because there is dealings of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa, people will misunderstand.
Professor: Yes, but it's very great poems. It's very beautiful, musical.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor: But...
Prabhupāda: And we, we have translated pralaya-payodhi-jale **. That is Daśāvatāra-stotra of Jayadeva Gosvāmī. We have translated Upadeśāmṛta of Rūpa Gosvāmī which is useful for general public. [break]
Professor: ...Yes. And, I think, he was ill also. He was quite weak.
Paramahaṁsa: When he died, he... Every year he was going to these trips to visit these Buddhist monasteries.
Prabhupāda: He was a little attached to Buddhism?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, like Śaṅkarācārya, remember, he was...
Prabhupāda: Impersonalist.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He was mentioning to you that he thought Śaṅkara's teachings were much more simpler, much more understandable, he said. Than, attractive, he said, than Caitanya Mahāprabhu's. This was his...
Prabhupāda: What is your... [break]
Professor: I do not find Śaṅkara... Well, it's too abstract and it's...
Prabhupāda: Yes, right you are. It is round.
Professor: It's a question of...
Prabhupāda: ...about way.
Professor: Yes, of course, it's difficult to practice, of course, for people in general also. But, of course, he has also written hymns.
Prabhupāda: Yes. About Kṛṣṇa.
Professor: And they are... Yes. And they are, of course, a bit different. So he, Śaṅkara himself, seemed to...
Prabhupāda: That is explained in this Caitanya-caritāmṛta, why Śaṅkara prepared, presented his Māyāvāda philosophy. It is explained there.
Śrutakīrti: I remember where it was.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śrutakīrti: I remember where it was...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. [break]
Professor: Do you have classes on Caitanya-caritāmṛta?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes. Read it.
Prabhupāda: ...haya sarva-nāśa. Read the English translation.
Pradyumna: "Śaṅkarācārya, who is an incarnation of Lord Śiva, is faultless because he is servant carrying out the orders of the Lord, but those who follow his Māyāvādī philosophy are doomed. They will lose all their advancement in spiritual knowledge."
Prabhupāda: This is the opinion of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Anyone who hears Śaṅkara's comment on Vedānta philosophy, he is doomed.
Professor: That's about it.
Prabhupāda: What is the purport?
Pradyumna: "Māyāvādī philosophers are very proud of exhibiting their Vedānta knowledge through grammatical jugglery, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa in Bhagavad-gītā certifies that they are māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15], bereft of real knowledge due to māyā. Māyā has two potencies with which to execute her two functions: prakṣepātmikā..."
Prabhupāda: Prakṣepātmikā.
Pradyumna: "...śakti, the power to throw the living entity in the ocean of material existence, and āvaraṇātmikā-śakti, the power to cover the knowledge of the living entity. The function of the āvaraṇātmikā-śakti is explained the Bhagavad-gītā by the word: māyayāpahṛta-jñāna. Why the daivī-māyā, or illusory energy of Kṛṣṇa takes away the knowledge of the Māyāvādī philosophers is also explained in Bhagavad-gītā by the use of the words āsuraṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ, which refer to a person who does not agree to the existence of the Lord. The Māyāvādīs, who are not in agreement with the existence of the Lord, can be classed in two groups, exemplified by the impersonalists Śaṅkarites of Vārāṇasī and the Buddhists of Saranātha. Both of them are Māyāvādīs, and Kṛṣṇa takes away their knowledge due to their atheistic philosophies. Neither of them agree to accept the existence of a personal God. The Buddhist philosophers clearly deny, clearly deny both the soul and God, and although the Śaṅkarites do not openly deny God, they say that the Absolute is nirākāra, or formless. Thus both of them are aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32], or imperfect and unclean in their knowledge and intelligence."
Prabhupāda: What do you think?
Professor: That's... Of course, in the introduction to Śaṅkara's commentary to Bhagavad-gītā, he does, it seems, if it is for him, which is that...
Prabhupāda: He accepts Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Professor: Yes, Kṛṣṇa, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor: So Śaṅkara is a bit difficult because his followers, even he's Māyāvādī, the followers, even the followers, they clearly believe in it. But whether, what Śaṅkara himself meant by it...
Prabhupāda: No, that is explained. Śaṅkara is the incarnation of Lord Śiva. He has no fault. He has simply executed the order of the Supreme Lord. But the way in which he has presented the commentary, one should not hear it. That is his warning. Here is the Tenth Canto of Bhāgavatam, two volumes.
Professor: That's also "Not for sale in India". Why?
Prabhupāda: Because...
Professor: Well, I'm not in India.
Prabhupāda: India, we make members. We get more price. Because we are, our scheme, life member, they pay eleven hundred rupees, and whatever books we can supply, we supply. That's all. That is not even to the amount they pay. So we give our presentation and they contribute. This is the program.
Professor: Do you use any grammar, Sanskrit grammar, when you study Sanskrit?
Prabhupāda: Sanskrit grammar?
Professor: Yes, how do they learn when they learn Sanskrit?
Prabhupāda: We have given some hints.
Professor: Or do they learn from a text or...?
Prabhupāda: We have given some hints. In the last... You can show him, in the Bhagavad-gītā. Or Īśopaniṣad. The mode, how to read.
Professor: No, Sanskrit is quite difficult...
Prabhupāda: Yes, there...
Professor: Many forms and so forth.
Prabhupāda: Now, these boys, they did not know Sanskrit. By, by following the direction, they read very nicely these diacritic marks.
Professor: Yes. Oh, this is good.
Pradyumna: (indistinct)
Professor: But they don't learn how to inflect forms and so on...
Prabhupāda: Simply they have to learn the alphabet.
Professor: Alphabet, but not, I mean...
Prabhupāda: They they write the mark...
Professor: Devaḥ, devam, devena, devāya, and so on.
Prabhupāda: He has given the direction. This is made by him, how to pronounce. And then, by practice, it comes.
Professor: Are you going to have any kīrtana also tonight?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes, why not? You want to hear?
Professor: Yes, very much.
Prabhupāda: Well, all right. Begin.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Karatālas.
Prabhupāda: So you are a bhakta? You are a devotee.
Professor: Well... I'm sorry.
Prabhupāda: Now you have appeared. Very good.
Professor: Well... But...
Prabhupāda: So we have got a...
Professor: ...well I'm studying it and I'm attracted by many things.
Prabhupāda: No, studying, there are many scholars, they are studying, but you are factually bhakta. How you wanted to hear kīrtana? That is the sign of bhakta. Yes. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. Tan manye 'dhītam uttamam. Uttamam. He has, he has studied really.
Professor: In India, where is your center? Do you have any headquarters or something like that...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I have got center in Vṛndāvana.
Professor: Oh?
Prabhupāda: Yes, in Navadvīpa. I was, after my retirement from family, I was staying at Vṛndāvana. From 1956. Then in 1965 I came to America. So... Where is Haṁsadūta?
Paramahaṁsa: He's leading kīrtana downstairs, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Then...? You can, you can lead. Or anyone can lead. [break] So you like this kīrtana?
Professor: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Professor: It's very unusual in Sweden.
Prabhupāda: So you are, you are a devotee. Kindly cooperate with us, and overflood Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are educated. Your word will be accepted more than ours.
Professor: Yeah. How does one order these books?
Haṁsadūta: We have them here or...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: We just received shipment from Germany.
Professor: You stock them here?
Prabhupāda: Yes, all the books are there.
Professor: (indistinct) You have spoken to him.
Paramahaṁsa: I have spoken to him on the phone. He's on a trip, I think.
Professor: Yes, to New York, I think.
Prabhupāda: So what is your full name?
Professor: Carl Suneson. It's quite difficult.
Prabhupāda: Carl Simhasan.
Professor: S, U, N, E, S, O, N.
Prabhupāda: You are this...?
Paramahaṁsa: Swedish.
Professor: Swedish, yes.
Prabhupāda: So he can attend our meeting. He can introduce. That will be nice.
Professor: Yes.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. We're having a meeting, as you know, tomorrow night, at the Stockholm University.
Professor: Yes, I'll probably be coming, yes.
Paramahaṁsa: If you would, would you be kind enough, perhaps, to give an introductory lecture or, you know, to...
Professor: Well...
Paramahaṁsa: ...say, praise, or your appreciation of our movement or Śrīla Prabhupāda's teachings in front of the audience.
Professor: I, I, I don't know exactly... I hope I can come, but I can't say for sure.
Paramahaṁsa: I understand. I understand. Well, you're kindly invited. That goes without saying.
Professor: Yes, yes, I'll try to come. That will be at the University.
Paramahaṁsa: Yes, tomorrow evening at seven-thirty.
Professor: No, I'll try to come. Do you think, this one, do you think I could...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also available.
Professor: ...for myself, or...?
Paramahaṁsa: Unfortunately, I think we have to order these.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śrutakīrti: I don't think they have it here yet in your...
Prabhupāda: We are getting the consignment. Now we have only one copy.
Professor: This is the only copy you have?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you want to read overnight, then you can take. You can return tomorrow.
Professor: Of course, if I don't take...
Paramahaṁsa: Hm? No, I can return. I can.
Professor: That's all right. I can wait. But then I get a copy of... That will be all right.
Prabhupāda: So give him some prasādam.
Śrutakīrti: Someone went out to get it. [break]
Professor: ...kīrtanas?
Prabhupāda: Eh? Bengali?
Professor: Yes. Yes. Do you sing any hymns, kīrtanas in Bengali also?
Haṁsadūta: Do we sing in Bengali?
Prabhupāda: Oh yes.
Professor: Or mostly, mostly in Sanskrit?
Prabhupāda: No, in Bengali some.
You have got harmonium here?
Haṁsadūta: Yes.
Śrutakīrti: Haribol.
Professor: I'm not...
Prabhupāda: Give me water. (Prabhupāda sings Hari hari bifale,) You can replay this. [break]
Professor: Who has written this?
Prabhupāda: Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura.
narottama-dāsa koy, ṭheliho rāṅgā pāy,
tomā bine ke āche āmāra
Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's singing, hari hari bifale janama goṅāinu: "My dear Lord, I have simply wasted my time. Bifale, without any profit. Because I got this human form of life, but I missed the opportunity for worshiping Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa." Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa bhajiyā." And by doing this, I have taken poison knowingly." Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Then golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana." This nāma-saṅkīrtana is not any material thing. It is the ecstatic love of Kṛṣṇa in the Goloka Vṛndāvana."
golokera prema-dhana, hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana,
rati janmilo kene tāy
"But I have no attachment for this hari-kīrtana." Saṁsāra-biṣānale, dibā-niśi hiyā jwale: "My heart is always burning in material existence." Juḍāite koinu upāy: "But I did not make any means by which I can get out of it." Brajendra-nandana jei, śacī-suta hoilo sei: "Formerly the same Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, who was, who appeared as the son of Nanda Mahārāja, He has again appeared as the son of Śacīdevī." And balarāma hoilo nitāi: "And Balarāma has appeared as Nityānanda Prabhu." So their business is: dīna-hīna jata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo, all sorts of sinful men, and materially suffering men, all of them have been delivered by these two brothers, Gaura-Nitāi, by preaching the saṅkīrtana movement. Tāra śākṣī jagāi mādhāi: "They have delivered all kinds of sinful men. The evidence is Jagāi and Mādhāi." prabhu nanda-suta, vṛṣabhānu-sutā-juta: "My Lord Kṛṣṇa, the son of Nanda Mahārāja, you are now standing with Rādhārāṇī, the daughter of King Vṛṣabhānu. So it is my appeal." Koruṇā karoho ei-bāro: "Kindly be kind upon me." Narottama-dāsa koy: "Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, 'Don't kick me out. I have no other shelter. Please take me.' " This is the...
narottama-dāsa koy, ṭheliho rāṅgā pāy,
tomā bine ke āche āmāra
"I have no other shelter. Don't kick me away." There are many very appealing songs in Vaiṣṇava literature.
Professor: How old is this one?
Prabhupāda: Eh? It is about two hundred fifty years ago it was written. There are many songs of Narottama Ṭhākura.
gaurāṅga bolite habe pulaka-śarīra
hari hari bolite nayane ba'be nīra
āra kabe nitāi-cānder koruṇā hoibe
saṁsāra-bāsanā mora kabe tuccha ha'be
viṣaya chāḍiyā kabe śuddha ha'be mana
kabe hāma herabo śrī-bṛndābana
There are so many songs.
Many songs. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura's songs. Then Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs. Locana dāsa, Locana dāsa's songs.
bhajo bhajo bhāi, caitanya nitāi,
sudṛḍha biśwāsa kori'
biṣaya chāḍiyā, se rase majiyā,
mukhe bolo hari hari
In this way, there are so many songs. Very simple Bengali. Especially Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura's songs, they have been approved by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura as Vedic evidences. Although it is written in Bengali, they are full of Vedic authority.
What is that? Eh? Oh, Śaraṇāgati.
Pradyumna: All. the Mahājana-gīti by Narottama dāsa.
Prabhupāda: Oh. There are so many songs. So you have devotional tendency. Develop it. Make your life successful. That is my humble suggestion. Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā bi... Anyone who has got this human form of life, he does not engage himself in developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he's drinking poison knowingly. Jāniyā śuniyā biṣa khāinu. Biṣa means poison. A great opportunity, this human life. That is our mission, that this modern civilization, they have created such entanglement that people are rotting and they are losing the opportunity of this human form of life. Only on the basis of this bodily concept of life.
yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke
sva-dhīḥ kalatrādiṣu bhauma-ijya-dhīḥ
yat-tīrtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij
janeṣv abhijñeṣu sa eva go-kharaḥ
[SB 10.84.13]
So by order of our superiors, we are trying to introduce. But we are very unhappy, seeing these people. They are spoiling their life in the bodily concept of life. He does not know what is going to happen next life. But there is a next life. That's a fact. As we had past life as child, as boy, as young man, similarly, we have past life also. This simple truth, they cannot understand. Or there is no attempt in the educational field.
Professor: Are you working all...? In what countries in Europe?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Professor: In what countries in Europe are you working in? Besides Scandinavia?
Haṁsadūta: In Germany, France and England, Holland, everywhere, in all countries.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Of course, this...
Professor: But East, Eastern Europe's impossible, eh?
Haṁsadūta: Yes, as a matter of fact, we, we have a devotee in East Berlin. But, of course, it's very difficult because the government doesn't allow it. But we just... He keeps a shaved head, and he's chanting. He's reading our books.
Professor: But nobody has interfered with him?
Haṁsadūta: Well, nobody knows.
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Haṁsadūta: I was just telling him about this devotee we have in East Berlin. We have a devotee in East Berlin who's chanting, and keeps a shaven head.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Paramahaṁsa: Do you know Professor Kotofsky?
Professor: Kotofsky? No.
Paramahaṁsa: In Moscow. He's a Sanskrit... Head of the oriental studies.
Professor: Kotofsky?
Paramahaṁsa: Yes. He's uh... Śrīla Prabhupāda, also met him one time in Moscow.
Haṁsadūta: But he's not a devotee.
Professor: No, but that's...
Prabhupāda: Now, I, when we were talking, I asked him one question, that "Professor Kotofsky, you are communist, I am Kṛṣṇite. So where is the difference of philosophy? Because you have to accept one authority, leader. So you have accepted Lenin as leader; we have accepted Kṛṣṇa as leader. So where is the difference on the principle?" So he could not answer. But he very much appreciated this, that "Where is the difference between these two principles." But now we have to consider whether the leadership of Lenin is good, or the leadership of Kṛṣṇa is good. That is another thing. But you have to accept one leader. You cannot do without leader. That is not possible.
Professor: Well, well, to some extent it's possible.
Prabhupāda: No, every extent. Anyone, anyone calling... So many philosophy or ism, he has got leader. That you cannot avoid. The Buddhists, they are following Lord Buddha. Christians, they are following Lord Jesus Christ. Mohammedans, they are following Mohammed. Similarly the communists, they are following Lenin, or Max. What is?
Devotees: Marx.
Paramahaṁsa: Karl Marx.
Prabhupāda: Karl Marx.
Professor: But, of course, in Sweden, most people, they don't, they don't follow anybody. So it's... I mean...
Prabhupāda: No, they follow. At least, one follows himself. Is it not? "Don't follow anyone" means he follows himself. He has got a particular philosophy, and he's the leader.
Professor: Well, naturally, everybody has some kind of ideas, I mean, how to lead his life.
Prabhupāda: But that will not help us.
Professor: But, uh...
Prabhupāda: Unless we accept the real leader, a perfect personality who can give us perfect knowledge, there is no success. That is our philosophy.
tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet,
samit-pāṇiḥ śrotriyaṁ brahma-niṣṭham
[MU 1.2.12]
We have to approach a person who has seen the truth in reality. Then our life is success. That is the Vedic injunction. And that is fact. Unless we are... Just like you are teacher, a professor. So therefore people are coming to you to learn. How can you say that he can follow his own philosophy? He's coming to school, college. He's taking lesson from the teacher. One has to follow. The selection may be right or wrong; that is another thing. But one has to select.
Professor: Well, one has to acquire knowledge.
Prabhupāda: Eh. Yeah. Therefore, if we have to acquire knowledge, we must go to a person who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned. There are four defects in the conditioned soul: to commit mistake, to become illusioned, to cheat others, and imperfectness of senses. One may declare himself that he's perfect in knowledge, but his senses are imperfect. So how he can call himself that he has got the perfect knowledge by speculative method?
Professor: Hm.
Prabhupāda: The instrument which he is using for speculation, that instrument itself is imperfect.
Professor: Well, normally our knowledge will be imperfect in some way or...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Professor: Normally our knowledge is imperfect in one way or another.
Prabhupāda: How it is perfect?
Professor: Im...
Haṁsadūta: Imperfect.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Haṁsadūta: Imperfect.
Professor: That is...
Prabhupāda: So imperfect knowledge, one who has got imperfect knowledge, how he can give lesson perfect?
Professor: No, but you can still give something, even if you...
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's all right, you get something, but that is not perfect.
Professor: No, but of course, there are different kinds of knowledge and...
Prabhupāda: No, our principle is to get perfect knowledge from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's above these defects. Vedāhaṁ samatītāni vartamānāni ca... [Bg. 7.26]. Find out this verse.
Pradyumna: Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: First of all, you find out that verse: bahūni me janmāni vyatītāni tava cārjuna.
"The Blessed Lord said, 'Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!' "
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Pradyumna: "In the Brahma-saṁhitā we have information of many, many incarnations of the Lord. It is stated there:
'I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Govinda, or Kṛṣṇa, who is the original person, absolute, infallible, without beginning...' "
Prabhupāda: Infallible. Infallible. This word is used. Acyuta. Hm.
Pradyumna: "...without beginning, although expanded into unlimited forms, still, the same original, the oldest and the person always appearing as a fresh youth... (Pradyumna goes on reading the purport until:) the following verse." Then the next verse.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Pradyumna: Then the next verse.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
ajo 'pi sann avyayātmā
bhūtānām īśvaro 'pi san
prakṛtiṁ svām adhiṣṭhāya
sambhavāmy ātma-māyayā
[Bg. 4.6]
Prabhupāda: That's all. So this Bhagavad-gītā, at least, should be introduced in all colleges. And Professor Dimock has recommended. Just...
Professor: Well, it is quite widely read, the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Professor: The Bhagavad-gītā is quite widely read.
Pradyumna: This is an introduction by Professor Dimock.
Professor: Yes, I've seen it. I read it. But it is quite widely read, you know. I mean the translations...
Prabhupāda: But one thing is that other Bhagavad-gītās, they have interpreted in their own (indistinct) not as it is. That is the difference. Just like you, you must have read Bhagavad-gītā by Radhakrishnan.
Professor: Yaḥ.
Prabhupāda: When the verse, the verse, where it is? In Ninth Chapter: Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Kṛṣṇa says, "Just think of Me, become My devotee, and worship Me, offer Me respect, obeisances." Radhakrishnan comments, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa." Just see. Have you seen it?
Professor: Yes, sir. Radhakrishnan's, yes.
Prabhupāda: Now he says, he misinterprets that "This is not to the person Kṛṣṇa." Just see.
Professor: No, but Radhakrishnan, his... He has wide knowledge also, but his interpretations...
Prabhupāda: This is his knowledge.
Professor: But his interpretations are...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says. Why he should interpret in that way? Kṛṣṇa personally says that "You become My devotee." And he says "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, the person." Why? He has no right to say like that. This way, these people mislead. If he is commenting on Bhagavad-gītā, he must present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. Why he gives his own opinion? If I say, "Give me a glass of water," how you cay say, "No, it is not to him?" How you can say? Is that very good thing? That Radhakrishnan has done. Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhaktaḥ. He says, "It is not to Kṛṣṇa, person." Just see. Do you think he has got the right to do so?
Professor: No, but I don't think Radhakrishnan's commentaries are...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes. Just see. It is there.
Professor: They are very incorrect often, and uh...
Prabhupāda: He has done this. You can see from...
Professor: Yes, but there's a translation by Franklin Edgarton (?) of the Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Translation is all right, but his commentation is wrong. Translation is all right. I know. That's very nice. It is done by some Englishman. Eh?
Professor: Well, that's one. Yes. And also there is Edgarton (?). He was an American Sanskrit scholar.
Prabhupāda: No, translation, there is, there is good translation. But he comments like that. Just like Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu was asked that "You are hearing; You do not speak anything," He said, "Yes, I am understanding the original verse of the Vedānta very clearly, but you are trying to cover the meaning. Therefore I am puzzled." This is the business of the Māyāvādīs. They'll simply puzzle. That's all.
Professor: Who? The Māyā...?
Prabhupāda: Māyāvādī.
Professor: Māyāvādī, hm.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You also told me that it is very difficult to understand the jugglery way of presentation.
Professor: Well, I think it's time for me to leave.
Prabhupāda: All right, thank you.
Professor: I have a long way home.
Prabhupāda: Give him this garland. Hm. Jaya. (end)
Room Conversation
with Indian Ambassador

September 5, 1973, Stockholm
Prabhupāda: When you left Moscow?
Ambassador: February, six months ago.
Prabhupāda: Oh. I went Moscow in...?
Prabhupāda: Nineteen...?
Paramahaṁsa: Seventy.
Prabhupāda: No, no. I think nineteen...
Haṁsadūta: Seventy-one.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Haṁsadūta: Seventy...
Prabhupāda: Two.
Haṁsadūta: Seventy-two, that's right.
Prabhupāda: June.
Haṁsadūta: June.
Paramahaṁsa: That was last year?
Haṁsadūta: Seventy-one.
Prabhupāda: Eh? Seventy-one.
Paramahaṁsa: In April, I think, or March.
Prabhupāda: You were there at seventy-one?
Ambassador: Seventy-one, I was, I think, there. I might have gone to India on leave. I returned in March, the end of March. Because I don't remember the...
Prabhupāda: Yes. I went there in June, 1971.
Ambassador: And did you stay in the city, or did...?
Prabhupāda: Yes, in National Hotel. One Madrasi gentleman...
Ambassador: I remember now, sir. Abhiyarthe(?) Natarajan.
Prabhupāda: Nataraja, yes.
Ambassador: Mr. Natarajan Rao told me because I was away. I was away in Central Asia. I remember his telling me. And Natarajan looked after.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambassador: I see.
Prabhupāda: So you have heard something about our movement?
Ambassador: General, generally, in general.
Prabhupāda: All over the world, they are expecting something spiritual enlightenment from India. That is a fact. But our government is callous in that respect. Therefore any so-called swami, yogis, come from India, they gather to receive him, to hear something from him. Yes. This is the tendency, that... The real thing is that people expected something... Still they are respectful to India on account of the spiritual enlightenment. That I have studied. Still they go to India to have some spiritual enlightenment. And actually we have got this in India. If anything has to be learned about spiritual, then it is only India. That has been admitted by one Chinese gentleman. He's a learned scholar. His book is recommended in New York University. I forget his name. He has written in his book that "If you want to learn something religion and spiritual, then you must go to India."
Ambassador: It must be Lin-yu-tang, no.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Ambassador: Was it Lin-yu-tang?
Prabhupāda: I don't know.
Ambassador: Yu-tang. You see he's a very great admirer of (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: And that's a fact. But our Indian government is not very serious about it.
Ambassador: No, we have a difficulty, Your Eminence. We have got a problem in India because we have got this multi-religious society. So we have to be careful. But individuals can...
Prabhupāda: No...
Ambassador: Because we have got to be... We should not be misunderstood. As a government, we should not take too strong a policy about any particular religion, even though it is the religion of the majority of the people.
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. It is the duty of the government... Secular state means neutral to any kind of religion. But it is the duty of government to see that people are religious. Not that "Because government is secular, let the people go to hell."
Ambassador: No, that's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are Muslim, and, it is my duty as government to see that you are actually acting as a Muslim. If you are a Hindu, it is the government's duty to see that you are acting as a Hindu. If you are a Christian, it is the government's duty. You cannot give up religion. Dharmena hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ. If people become irreligious in the name of secularism, then they are simply animals. So it is the government's duty to see that the citizens are not becoming animals. He may profess a type of religion. That doesn't matter. But he must be religious. That is secular state. Not that secular state means government is callous, "Let the people become cats and dogs, without religion. Government doesn't care." That is not good government. What do you think?
Ambassador: I think, Your Eminence, there's a lot in what you say, but, you know, politics is the art of the possible.
Prabhupāda: No. No, politics means to see that people are advanced, citizens are advanced, not that they are degraded.
Ambassador: Your Eminence, I agree, but I think the duty of the government primarily is to provide conditions in which gifted people, spiritual people like you, leaders like you, can function. More than that, if the government does, it might probably even corrupt the religious... I don't know. Like an umpire in a game, you know, or something... Provide the conditions, provide the conditions for free speech. Not like Moscow, you know, where it is...
Prabhupāda: No. That is... Just like you have got the Commerce Department. Government has got. What is the duty of the Commerce Department? The government must see that the trade enterprise, common share, or industrial enterprise, they are doing nicely, properly. The government issuing license. They have got supervision. They send sometimes, what is called, inspectors? Education. Say, for education. There is educational inspector, school inspector. They go see that the students are properly being educated in that school. Similarly, government should have expert men in the government to see that the Hindus are acting like Hindu, Muslims are acting like Muslim, and Christians are acting like Christian. The government should not be callous about religion. They may be neutral that whatever religion you profess, government has nothing to do. You do nicely. But it is the government's duty to see that you are doing nicely, you are not bluffing. That is government's duty.
Ambassador: Probably, as far as moral conduct is concerned, but more than that, how is it possible, you know? For the inner man in the spiritual mind, each individual can conceive his own philosophy, but the external conduct, the, the, what is called...?
Prabhupāda: No, no. External conduct means on religious principle.
Ambassador: This is what I was...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Harāv abhaktasya kuto... I... You can, you can...
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ...understand Sanskrit.
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcanā sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ [SB 5.18.12]. If one has got faith and devotion to God, God is one... God is neither Christian nor Hindu nor Muslim. God is one. So religion means according to... Not according to... This is the Vedic conclusion.
sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhokṣaje
ahaituky apratihatā
yayātmā suprasīdati
[SB 1.2.6]
One must be religious. Without being religious, he cannot be satisfied. Therefore there is confusion, dissatisfaction all over the world because, because people have become irreligious. If you want to keep... In Calcutta, there was, in the American Consulate Office, I was invited. There, they have got a department: "Indo-American Cultural Society." Perhaps you know.
Ambassador: I heard about it.
Prabhupāda: I was invited there to speak: "East and West." So I explained that so far we are concerned, we have no such thing as east and west. But still, there is difference between east and west that in the Eastern countries, especially in India, even in the remotest part of the village, a cultivator, poor cultivator, he'll understand God consciousness very easily. And so far in the West, I talked with Professor Kotofsky... Perhaps you know.
Ambassador: Yes. In Oriental Institute.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He said, "Swamiji, after this body's finished, everything is finished." You see? Such a big professor. He...
Ambassador: That is Marxist materialism.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Ambassador: It is Marxist materialism.
Prabhupāda: But Marxist materialism, does it mean a congregation of some fools and rascals?
Ambassador: I think so, true.
Prabhupāda: Does it mean they like that some congregation of fools and rascals? Such a big professor, he does not know, he cannot understand even that there is life after death. He has to accept another body. As we are accepting different bodies. I was a child. You were a child. Then I became a boy. That is different body. Different consciousness also. A child, three-four years, he talks in a different way. A boy, ten-twelve years, he talks in a different way, and a young man, educated young man, he talks in a different way. So with the change of the body, the consciousness is changing. Is it not?
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Children, small children, they're just like animals. The cats and dogs, just they are playing, they're also playing like that. But he, he does not belong to that category because when he'll get..., he'll get another body in which he'll be intelligent. Another body, he'll be highly educated. Another body, he'll be doctorate. The cats and dogs, they'll have to wait to get that body. So with the body, we are changing our consciousness. So different body, different consciousness. Similarly, why not after death a different body, different consciousness? If you make progress. Yes. This is progressive. So that is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā: tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13].
So people cannot understand. That means they are not dhīra, not even, according to Vedic conc..., not even gentlemen. One who cannot understand this simple theory, that, "After this body, as I have changed so many bodies, similarly, I shall change this body also." That's a fact. So dhīras tatra na muhyati. Dhīra, one who has got brain, one who can think, he'll not be puzzled. "Yes, he has... Death means he has changed body." Any gentle, good brain will understand. But people are so foolish now, they cannot understand. They are not educated even to understand this simple thing. This is the position of the world. Even a big professor like Kotofsky. So this is the position of our present human society.
Ambassador: But in the countries like Moscow, Soviet Union, they are hostile, against it, but in most countries of the world, they're indifferent. It's...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why Moscow? Everywhere. Moscow, they are, rather, good that they say, "We don't believe in God."
Ambassador: That's true, that's true.
Prabhupāda: But others, they say that "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I believe in God," but he does not know anything.
Ambassador: I'm afraid most of us are like that, to be honest. That's true.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) I should say that Moscow are gentlemen. Because they cannot understand, they say, "Don't believe."
Ambassador: It's mūḍha-dhī.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But these rascals, they say, "Yes, I'm religious," but he's doing most irreligious activities. You see? I asked the Christian so many times that "Your Bible says, 'Thou shalt not kill.' Why you are killing?" They cannot give any satisfactory answer. This is my experience. It is clearly said, "Thou shalt not kill." And they are maintaining slaughterhouses. What is this? The other day in London, one lady, she was showing me... She... You were present? Broke some grass blade?
Haṁsadūta: Oh yes, I was present.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Breaking a grass blade is equal to keeping a big, organized slaughterhouse. Just see.
Ambassador: I see.
Prabhupāda: This is their intelligence. She has complained, "It is also killing." Supposing it is killing. Actually it is not killing. Supposing it is killing. This killing and keeping organized slaughterhouse killing is the same thing. Just see. People have become so degraded.
Ambassador: This is sophistry.
Prabhupāda: They give this example that: "You also kill vegetables, just this grass blade is broken. It is killed. So it is equal to maintaining a big slaughterhouse." You see? This is going on, under the name of re... They, they were Christian nuns. In London they come to me, talk some time. So... And in India also, we see now cow killing is going on, regular slaughterhouse and... What can I say? You are government man. (laughs) You may take some wrong views about me. What is your opinion, personal?
Ambassador: I'm afraid I'm a very democratic person. If people, if they sincerely believe that they cannot exist without meat, they should be permitted, and once that is granted...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Ambassador: have to organize slaughterhouses.
Prabhupāda: Then, then that is the, our misfortune that we have lost our Indian culture.
Ambassador: Because...
Prabhupāda: Indian culture.
Ambassador: Your Grace, what you want is really a sort of complete...
Prabhupāda: No, I don't want.
Ambassador: ...a strong, obedient, disciplined society. But the moment the disciplinarian becomes a dictator, it is...
Prabhupāda: It is, it is the duty of the government to see. That is the government. Strong government means...
Ambassador: It's the Rāma-rājya ideal.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Strong government means that, that government should be very, very vigilant that citizens are doing their duty properly. That is the first duty. They should be given all protection. At the same time... Just like the father gives protection to the children, at the same time, very strict that they are morally and disciplinary, they are going, coming out nice. That is father's duty. It is government's duty. If the father thinks, "Let my son go to hell. I don't care. I give them some food. That's all." Is that father's duty? No. Father's duty, to arrange for their food, for their dress, for their shelter, at the same time, to see that they are growing nice, not rascals. That is father's duty. Similarly, government's duty is that. We see from Vedic śāstra government duty is that. Otherwise why there is need of government? Government... Now it is government. But formerly it was the king. The king must be representative of God. Because... Who is God? God means nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām, eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān (Kaṭha Upaniṣad 2.2.13). Kaṭhopaniṣad. So God, what is God? God means He's also person. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām. He is also eternal, He's also cognizant. We are also eternal, we are also cognizant. But what is the difference between God and we? The difference is He maintains us. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. Bahu-vacanam, nityānām, cetanānām, this is bahu-vacanam. And nityaḥ, cetanaḥ, eka-vacanam. So what is the difference between this singular number and plural number? The singular number is maintaining the plural number. Eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. So God is maintaining everyone. So difference is that He is so powerful, He can maintain every living entity. He's maintaining the elephants in Africa, who eat, at a time, forty kilos. He's supplying food. There's no scarcity of food in the jungle for the elephants. Neither there is scarcity... In the hole of your room, you'll find hundreds and thousands of ui. Who is feeding them, within the hole? Unless they're eating, sleeping, the same thing are there. How they are living very nicely? But who is giving them food within the hole? A small hole. You did not provide that hole. You did not provide their food. But there are hundreds and millions of ants. They're living there within the hole very happily. Sometimes they come out. We see: "Oh, wherefrom so many hundreds coming?" So eko bahūnāṁ yo vidadhāti kāmān. That is God. He's supplying food. So there are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. Out of that, 400,000 are human beings. Out of that, many are uncivilized. The uncivilized aborigines live in the jungle. They have no economic problem. They're also human being. They never come to city for food. They are maintaining themselves. The elephants are maintaining. The ants are maintaining. Why the civilized, a few men, they have got so problem, so many problems? Because they... We are not the only living entities. There are 8,400,000 different forms of living entities. They're all being maintained by the Supreme Lord. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said that sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ: [Bg. 14.4] "As many forms are there, in all different species," ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā, "I am the Father." The father maintains the sons, as we see actually. He's maintaining. So why you are so much...? Our father is rich. He's not poor. God is not poor. Ṣaḍ-aiśvarya-pūrṇa. Six kinds of opulence fully. So why are you talking of this over-population, scarcity of food? Why? Actually the father is God. He's maintaining. And factually we see how many human beings, civilized human beings, are there. The other living beings are many hundred thousand times bigger quantity. If they can be maintained by God, what we have done, that He'll not maintain us? He'll maintain us. He's maintaining. So many people they say, "India is starving." I am Indian. I never see any man starving and died. I've never seen. This is simply advertisement. What is your opinion?
Ambassador: There is poverty.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Ambassador: There is poverty.
Prabhupāda: Poverty, there is poverty in other countries also.
Ambassador: Also.
Prabhupāda: There, there also... Now India has got poverty. So why in America and Europe, there are hippies. Why?
Ambassador: It's an express... It's another type of poverty.
Prabhupāda: They're also thinking that "We are not sumptuously fed," or something. Some demands is there. Some demand. And they are lying down, Amsterdam and here, on the street. And why? But they are coming of rich families, rich nation. Especially America. In London also, I have seen. Regent Park. They're lying down. Police is kicking. Police is kicking: "Get up, get up!" Why? Behind them the British Empire is, British government is there. Why he's lying down there? Who has told him to...? Government is requesting, "If you have no home, come on. I shall give you home." In Bombay also, these, what is called? The huts?
Haṁsadūta: Huts?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Haṁsadūta: Those tent huts?
Prabhupāda: They are on the... You have seen in Bombay?
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We passed, when we passed while coming from aerodrome to city...
Ambassador: From...
Prabhupāda: So many thatched cottages, small. So Bombay government has given them home, that "You come here, live." But what do they...? they rent to some, another man, and they live in the... In Madras also, I have seen.
Ambassador: I know. That's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They don't like. They don't like. They want to...
Ambassador: They roam, yes. It's what the gypsies did, you know.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambassador: When they were given houses in Moscow.
Prabhupāda: So there are different prakṛtis. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ [Bg. 3.27]. So there are different prakṛtis, different mentality. They want to live, eat. The eating, sleeping, mating, defending is there, but everyone has got different ideas. Just like you say, majority of people, they want to eat meat. They have got different mentality. But we don't want.
Ambassador: In India, of course, not majority, I think it's a minority.
Prabhupāda: No, no. More...
Ambassador: Most people are...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. In India, they're now being educated to eat meat. (Ambassador laughs) Otherwise, Indians, at least, Hindus...
Ambassador: It is true. That's true.
Prabhupāda: Eh? They are being educated.
Ambassador: (laughing) I belong to vegetarian family. I eat meat now.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, in Madras, I have seen...
Ambassador: Most of them...
Prabhupāda: Mostly they are vegetarian, strictly vegetarian. Actually, in Southern India, they maintain the Hindu culture. You'll find big high-court judges, they have got tilaka.
Ambassador: That's true.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Strictly in Rāmānuja sampradāya, or Śaiva sampradāya they have got... Strictly taking bath and tilaka. In New Delhi, you'll find so many Madrasi gentlemen, big, big, high officers, they're strictly following Hindu principles.
Ambassador: You'll be surpri...
Prabhupāda: And still, if I am correct, in Madras, they, there, there is not many Mohammedans. The Mohammedan culture could not enter...
Ambassador: That's very true.
Prabhupāda: ...into Madras, Southern India. And you'll find also in our Caitanya Caritāmṛta... Now I am translating. When Caitanya Mahāprabhu went to Southern India, practically whole Southern India became Vaiṣṇava by His preaching.
Ambassador: It is a great period of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. And all the ācāryas, they came from South India. Śaṅkarācārya, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya. I think Madhvācārya belonged to your province? Malaya?
Ambassador: No, Śaṅkarācārya came from...
Prabhupāda: Śaṅkarācārya.
Ambassador: From Kerala. Sir, I have got a question. I have not really been able to locate when exactly Rādhā entered Hindu mythology. Because the Bhāgavatam doesn't mention. They mention only rāsa-krīḍā as a... Before that, they were, before Gaurāṅga, Caitanya, did you, do you have rendered exactly the bhakti cult to take... The Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa, I mean. They were generally the gopīs and...
Prabhupāda: Other ācāryas, they elevated people up to sākhya-rasa.
Ambassador: Sākhya-rasa.
Prabhupāda: It is Caitanya Mahāprabhu, He gave us mādhurya-rasa.
Ambassador: Mādhurya-rasa.
Prabhupāda: Therefore about Caitanya Mahāprabhu, it is said, anarpita-carīṁ cirāt. Anarpita-carīṁ cirāt karuṇayāvatīrṇaḥ kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasāṁ...
anarpita-carīṁ cirāt
karuṇayāvatīrṇaḥ kalau
samarpayitum unnatojjvala-
rasāṁ sva-bhakti-śriyam
It is the gift of Śacīnandana, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, that Kṛṣṇa can be served in mādhurya-rasa, in conjugal love. That is Śrī Caitanya. And amongst the gopīs, Rādhārāṇī was the best gopī, foremost. Anayārādhitaḥ. This, this is mentioned in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.
Ambassador: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: Anayārādhitaḥ.
Ambassador: Oh, this is the beginning.
Prabhupāda: Anayārādhitaḥ. When Kṛṣṇa disappeared from rāsa-līlā, rāsa dance, then gopīs went out to search Him out, and, at that time, they saw that one gopī is most beloved by Kṛṣṇa. Anayārādhitaḥ. Therefore "Rādhā."
Ambassador: Anayārādhitaḥ?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ambassador: I do not know what we can do here, Your Grace, but we will be very happy to help them if they want any special material like dahl or any vegetables or... whatever it is... I think they are quite well.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We, we, we have no fixed income.
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But Kṛṣṇa has given us opportunity. Our books are selling... You have seen our books?
Ambassador: I've seen them in Moscow. One gentleman had a complete set. So I have glanced through them. Especially the Bhagavad...
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is?
Ambassador: ...translation, yes. And also the Bhāgavatam, also.
Prabhupāda: Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.
Ambassador: Yes, this one, yes.
Prabhupāda: This is published by Macmillan Company. We are selling about more than one lakh copies per year through Macmillan Company. Yes. Similarly, we are selling our other books. Bring...
Ambassador: The complete set I have seen. And also the other...
Prabhupāda: That is not yet complete. Bhāgavatam will be finished in sixty volumes.
Ambassador: Oh, sixty.
Prabhupāda: We have published only six volumes. Our manuscript is ready, but it requires great amount of money to publish.
Ambassador: And also...
Prabhupāda: But we are satisfied that in English-reading public, in Australia and America, in England, Europe—we are publishing in different languages—people are accepting our books very nicely. And lately that, one distributor...
Ambassador: Oh, I see.
Prabhupāda: This. No, not this. Where is that catalog?
Haṁsadūta: Brockridge, Keenan and Hall?
Prabhupāda: Ah, ah?
Haṁsadūta: Catalog? I think we must have left that in London.
Prabhupāda: They are also distributing our books, Macmillan Company. People are... Now there will be a big meeting on the 12th, September, how to organize. Because this kind of literature was there, there was none before this. The bhakti cult, this was never presented to the western countries.
Ambassador: Yes, yes. Mostly it was Vivekananda's explanation.
Prabhupāda: Vivekananda did not know anything about bhakti.
Ambassador: No, I mean he just, literally, it's not bhakti at all. Yes, it is...
Prabhupāda: Neither Vivekananda nor any swami. That is the regrettable fact. They, actually... Even Dr. Radhakrishnan, he could not present Bhagavad-gītā as it is. You see? He's impersonalist, and he presented in a different way, and now Professor, Dr. Pirindher...?
Haṁsadūta: Philinder.
Śrutakīrti: Dillinger.
Prabhupāda: He said, he came to see me that "Now we have rejected Dr. Radhakrishnan."
Ambassador: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because everyone has speculated in his own way. Therefore we have presented Bhagavad-gītā As It Is. And if you have got time, we can read some of the portions, how we have presented as it is. So people are liking this As It Is. Otherwise, Bhagavad-gītā is well-known in the western country, all over Europe. But because it was not presented as it is, there was not a single devotee of Kṛṣṇa. You find out, the whole history. Bhagavad-gītā is meant for making the reader a devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Is it not?
Ambassador: That's true.
Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So who can become fully surrendered to Kṛṣṇa unless he's a devotee? So it is a transaction between God and His devotee. That's a fact. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. These are the clear declaration. He's asking everyone, "Just become My devotee. Always think of Me. Offer Me obeisances." Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī. "Worship Me." Māṁ namaskuru. He, He is deprecating the worship of demigods. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. Find out this verse. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: [Bg. 7.23] "Less intelligent persons, they simply worship the demigods." This is the statement.
Ambassador: Most of... Well, I mean, I was a very political person. I must be very honest with you.
Prabhupāda: No, I'm talking of...
Ambassador: To me, Gītā means Gandhi's Gītā which said in a very distorted, very limited version...
Prabhupāda: Gandhi did not know anything about Bhagavad-gītā.

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