Guest (1) (Indian man): ...Yes, yes. I ask him why, after such a long lapse of time we could see this trait of Hindu dharma.

Prabhupada.: Yes. Not Hindu dharma.

Guest (1): Or Vedic dharma.

Prabhupada: ...but spiritual, satisfaction of spiritual starvation. Because we are spiritual beings. That I was trying to explain. That we have bodily necessities, at the same time we have spiritual necessities. This Western civilization, they are simply after the bodily necessities. Just like here is a qualified medical man. He's made... What for, medical man? He knows how to satisfy the medical necessities of the body. He has no information of the spirit soul. Is it not a fact? Have you got any idea what is spirit soul?

Guest (2) (Indian Doctor): Not from the medical knowledge, certainly not.

Prabhupada: Therefore I say that these universities, educational institution, all over the world, they are simply concerned with this body. According to our Vedic culture, to remain satisfied with the bodily necessities of life is the business of animals. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13].

Guest (1): What is God to a layman, like me.

Prabhupada: Layman, well, layman means, we already explained, he's no better than animal. Because layman means one who thinks that "I am this body." He's layman. He has no other information. So layman is equal to animal. So layman's education, layman's advancement is decoration of the dead body. If you decorate a dead body, you can feel satisfaction. But others will laugh, that "What a fool he is, he's decorating a dead body?" Bhagavad-bhakti-hinasya jatih sastram japas tapah, apranasyeva dehasya mandanam loka-ranjanam. Layman's business is decorating this dead body, that's all.

Guest (1): Yeah, but if you were to explain to him what is God, how would you explain to him.

Prabhupada: Then, suppose, what you are? What is your business? What do you do? You're teacher, what is the subject matter?

Guest (1): I teach in law.

Prabhupada: So if one wants to know what is law, he must become a student. It is not that simply asking "What is law, sir?" You can make him understand within a minute or within hour? Is it possible?

Guest (1): No.

Prabhupada: First of all, you must become graduate, then you should take entrance in the law college, then you must learn. So what is God, that is the inquiry, but it requires training. And that is Vedic dharma, varnasrama-dharma. Varnasrama-dharma. Varnasramacaravata purusena parah puman [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Anyone who has taken to this system of varnasrama-dharma, four varnas: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra; and four asrama: brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. Unless one takes to this institutional education, he's no more than an animal. So to know God means he must become a brahmana, real, qualified brahmana. Therefore brahmana is respected. Because, brahma-janatiti brahmana. But there is no law. Lawless country. Therefore one is passing as a brahmana without any knowledge of Brahman. That is the defect. Formerly the government will see... I was explaining this, this morning. That it is the ksatriya's duty to see that one is passing as a brahmana, whether he's qualified. Why he should pass? Suppose he says, "I'm medical man." He must be qualified. And if he says, "I am medical man," then he's cheating. So you cannot call yourself a brahmana unless you are qualified. But that is going on. And this cheating is being accepted. Therefore this varnasrama-dharma. Hindu dharma or Vedic dharma means varnasrama-dharma. One must first of all accept the principles of varnas and asramas. Then there is question of understanding God. God is not so cheap thing, "What is God?" and you understand immediately. You must become first of all brahmana.

Guest (1): So in order to understand what is God one has to leave his family and come to some...

Prabhupada: Why do you surmise like that? You do not know what is God. Why do you surmise your proposal?

Guest (1): No, I mean, ah...

Prabhupada: Now why you are asking this question? You know, I've explained, that one has to become brahmana. There are still there are many brahmanas, those who are with children. Even Caitanya Mahaprabhu, although He had no children, He was family man. Nityananda Prabhu was family man, and Advaita Prabhu was family man. They're all brahmanas, family men, but they knew what is God. The real thing is to know God. Not to, because everything is allowed. These eight, four varnas and four asramas. There is no such thing that one has to become, to come to this form of life or that form of life. So varnasramacaravata. You must execute the varnasrama-dharma. Then you'll understand. It doesn't matter whether you are a brahmana or ksatriya or vaisya or sudra, that is a cooperation. Just like in your body there must be the head, there must be the arms, there must be the belly, and there must be the legs. By comparative study head is more important than the leg. But leg is also required. You cannot do without leg. Similarly, brahmana is the head, ksatriya is the arms, vaisya is the belly and sudra is the leg. So as much I require my head so much I require the leg also. But the leg must do the leg's duty and the head must do the head's duty. Then it is perfect. And if the head is cracked, then everything is gone, madman. So at the present moment there is no brahmana, qualified. Therefore the society is in chaos. In chaotic condition, all are searching after something substantial. That is the position of the Western countries. They have heard so many things about India's culture. Still, they respect India's culture, spiritual culture. They are hankering after. But unfortunately the so-called yogis, swamis, come and cheat them. That is the difficulty. This is the first time that systematically we are presenting what is actual Vedic dharma or Bhagavata-dharma. This question was raised by Ramananda Raya before Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Varnasrama, he quoted this verse from Visnu Purana. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, eho bahya, age kaha ara. "Yes, it is all right, varnasrama-dharma, but it is now external. If you know something better, you speak." So in this way the whole system was discussed. At last Caitanya Mahaprabhu approved this system of sravanam kirtanam visnoh [SB 7.5.23]. Chanting and hearing about Visnu. Varnasrama-dharma is also Visnu. Visnur aradhyate. The real purpose is understanding Visnu the Supreme. So varnasrama-dharma is also meant for understanding Visnu. Visnur aradhyate. So... But these formulas of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, it is the, the age is so rotten that it is very difficult to revive this varnasrama-dharma culture. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, eho bahya, age kaha ara. Yes, it is all right, but it is external now. It cannot be utilized at the present moment. So when Ramananda Raya stated, citing one verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam: sthane sthitah sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhir ye prayaso 'jita jito 'py asi tais tri-lokyam. If one simply hears about Visnu, never mind in whatever condition he is, then he can understand what is God. Sthane sthitah sruti-gatam. Sruti-gatam means hearing. Receiving from the ear. Sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. And in that way if he engages his body, his words, tanu-vak, mind, then, although Lord Visnu is Ajita, nobody can conquer Him, he can conquer. He can understand what is Visnu, what is His function, what is my relationship with Him. All these things can be understood. Therefore we are propagating the same principle. We do not ask anyone: "First of all, you become brahmana. Then come here." No. Let him come and hear about Visnu. We speak, discuss about Bhagavad-gita. They hear. They hear Srimad-Bhagavatam. You have seen our books? So these books are discussed and gradually... If it is a fact, sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih, if one gives only aural reception to this transcendental message, then, although God is Ajita, nobody can conquer, He becomes conquered. So that is becoming, happening, that although they are American, European, Canadian, African, Australian, not all of them are Indian... Indians are also there. But because they are giving aural reception to this transcendental message, they are becoming enlightened. So anyone who will give aural reception to this message, first of all Bhagavad-gita, entrance, then Bhagavatam, then Caitanya-caritamrta, like books, then gradually, he'll be self-realized, fully cognizant what is God. What is God, this is... athato brahma jijnasa means what is God. So this institution is meant for giving chance to everyone to hear. It doesn't require education. Simply God has given him this ear. Let him receive the message from the ear. Sruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. This is the process. Very simple process. Simply to hear, sincerely, then everything will be done gradually. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. By hearing, the mirror of consciousness, consciousness is just like a mirror. It is now covered with dust. Marjanam. Mirror, if you cleanse with a duster, then you can see clearly what is your face. So by this chanting process and hearing, gradually the dirty things in the heart will be cleansed. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah [SB 1.2.17]. Simply hearing about Krsna is punya, pious activities. Punya-sravana-kirtanah. Either you hear or you chant. Punya-sravana-kirtanah. Hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani. There are so many dirty things, nonsense things, within the heart. Hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani, vidhunoti, is washed. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah. Who is...? Find out this verse. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah. In the First Canto, first part, Third Chapter. Where is Pandita Maharaja? Call him. Srnvatam, you can find out in the index.

Srutakirti: S-i?

Prabhupada: Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah.

Srutakirti: S-i-n?

Prabhupada: R. Sva-kathah. Yes. What...

Srutakirti: Sva-pathah?

Prabhupada: Krsna. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah. You are not learning, only Pandita Gosani is required. Where is Pandita Gosani?

Srutakirti: He went to...

Guest (1): Can I have a look at it please?

Prabhupada: Yes, give him. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah, hrdy antah stho hy abhadrani [SB 1.2.17]. (speaks some Bengali. Asks some Indians if they know Bengali, where they are from.)

Srutakirti: It's not in the Third Chapter.

Prabhupada: Let me see. First Canto, where it is?

Srutakirti: S-i?

Prabhupada: S-r.

Srutakirti: S-r, srn, oh.

Prabhupada: Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah. You could not find? Here it is.

Srutakirti: I was looking s-i.

Prabhupada: Find out.

Prabhupada: Second Canto, no?

Srutakirti: 107 Second Chapter.

Prabhupada: Second Chapter, Second Chapter, seventeenth verse, yes.

Prabhupada: Vidhunoti suhrt satam. What is the meaning?

Srutakirti: "Sri Krsna, the Personality of Godhead, who is the Paramatma, Supersoul, in everyone's heart and the benefactor of the truthful devotee, cleanses desire for material enjoyment from the heart of the devotee who relishes His messages, which are in themselves virtuous when properly heard and chanted."

Prabhupada: This is the process. If you hear about Krsna, then Krsna is within yourself. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. When he sees you are anxious, then he helps you in cleansing the dirty things within your heart. Purport read?

Prabhupada: The prescribed methods are there. We have to adopt it. Without adopting the prescribed method, nobody can advance. But in this age the prescribed method is very simple. Simply to hear the holy name of the Lord.

Guest (2): I don't know actually. I'm a doc. I'm trying to find some answer but what difference does it make? Suppose a person thinks of God all his life and dies, and a person who doesn't think of God at all also dies. What is our life after death?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Then why do we have to think of God? Why do we have to forget about the material world?

Prabhupada: First of all you have to understand that there is life after death.

Guest (2): Why, is it a faith or belief?

Prabhupada: No, it is not faith, belief. It is a fact. Just like, I have already given you the example. You were a child. That body's no longer existing, but you know that you were a child. Therefore the conclusion is that although the body has changed, but you the soul, the knower, is still there. Therefore, when this body will be changed, you'll exist in another body.

Guest (2): In what form?

Prabhupada: That is another thing. First of all you have to accept this fact, that you have to change this body. As you have already changed so many times. Tatha... Krsna first of all says tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Antara, another body you have to accept.

Guest (2): Coming back to your own question of the present world and to what we are in...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest (2): Coming back to your first question when you asked that what do you think about this present world or the present trend of present civilization...?

Prabhupada: Yes. They do not know. Even big, big professors. I talked with Professor Kotofsky in Moscow. He said, "Swamiji, after annihilation of this body, there is nothing."

Guest (2): Well, that has brought this disaster and is causing more and more trouble, I think. More and more in practice of medicine, if we look into the practice of medicine, I think, we are more pressed with the problem of mental illness. I should say in the region of thirty percent of our time is devoted for people suffering from mental anxiety, which we call "anxiety state" and partly depression. I think most of the time, I surmise... Part of the problem is not that they are not well-fed, it is not that they are not well-dressed. Part of the problem is to accept as they are and to think of something which is present, I mean they could believe that there is something beyond this world, and if they can accept that, probably they will be better off and they will accept their present inconveniences more easily and will not be depressed.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): And that is the present problem.

Prabhupada: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: matra-sparsas tu kaunteya sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah. Sukha-duhkha-dah

Prabhupada: That is, that is next question, that you have to accept next body, but what kind of body you'll have? That you can see, that there are so many varieties of life, body. You have to accept one of them. Just like when you were admitted into school for education. The idea was that you'll be educated, and according to your education, there are so many posts you'll have to occupy. Just like you are lawyer, he's medical man, somebody's engineer, somebody else, somebody... Varieties or field of activities. So according to the perfection of one's education, he has to accept one post like that. Similarly, next body means according to your karma. Karmana daiva-netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. You are preparing your next Life. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gita:

Guest (2): Yes. Can you scientifically prove this, sir? I mean is it purely a matter of belief or...

Prabhupada: This is science. Our science is perfect science. Because we are receiving knowledge from the perfect, Krsna. And the so-called science is imperfect because the knowledge is received from imperfect person. However great scientist you may be, you have to admit that your senses are imperfect.

Guest (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: So imperfect senses can give imperfect knowledge. That is not scientific knowledge. What you are thinking scientific knowledge, that is bogus. Because the man who has given that knowledge, he's imperfect. How you can expect perfect knowledge from the imperfect person?

Guest (2): It's a question of degree.

Prabhupada: Now, degree may be, but ultimately, if you are unable to give perfect knowledge, then what is the use of taking knowledge from you?

Guest (2): Yes, I accept that view. But how do you prove that a man...?

Prabhupada: Yes, therefore you take from the perfect, Krsna. We take from Krsna's representative. One who speaks as good as Krsna. That is our process. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. We don't take, don't accept knowledge from any rascal. We accept knowledge from Krsna, the Supreme. I may be rascal, but because I am receiving knowledge from the perfect, whatever we speak, that is perfect. A child may be innocent he does not know. But he has learned that this article is called spectacle. So when he says, the child says, "Father, this is spectacle." This is perfect knowledge. Similarly, if you hear from the perfect and act accordingly, then you are perfect. Now Krsna says, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Tatha dehantara-praptih. After death there is another body. So we accept it. It doesn't require any proof of so-called science who's imperfect.

Guest (2): So the question of belief comes first.

Prabhupada: It is not belief, it is fact.

Guest (2): Yes, but if you say fact, how do you prove?

Prabhupada: This is proof, Krsna says.

Guest (2): It has been said by Krsna. Yes, but...,

Prabhupada: That is our Vedic evidence. Whenever we speak something, immediately quote from Vedas. This is our process. If it is accepted by the Vedic process, then it is perfect. Just like in the law court. You are lawyer. You are arguing. When you quote from a judgement, previous judgement, it is accepted. Similarly, when you give authoritative statement support of your talking, then it is perfect. That is the way. Otherwise, what for these books are there? If it is mental speculation what is the use of these books? But as soon as we speak something, we immediately support by quoting from Vedic literature. And that is perfect. And now you have to possess little knowledge. Just like Krsna says, how Krsna is perfect. Krsna is giving example side, by side. Yatha, dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe, as there is the soul, there is the soul, asmin dehe, and he's having different types of bodies, kaumaram yauvanam jara. He's changing body from childhood, boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, youth-hood to another state. Tatha dehantara-praptih. Where is the illogical presentation? This is scientific. For an intelligent man, this is scientific. And if he's still dull-headed, then what can be done? Krsna gives example. Tatha dehantara-praptih. As the soul is changing body, from babyhood to childhood, childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youth-hood, like that. Similarly, after finishing this body, it may be invisible to you, but the subtle body is there. We have got two kinds of bodies. Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca [Bg. 7.4]. This material, eight kinds of materialsearth, water, fire, air, sky, mind, intelligence, ego. So when your body of earth, water, fire, air... Now in the... Now here is a medical man. He knows about this body made of earth, water, fire, air. But he does not know, perhaps, the body made of mind, intelligence and ego. Do you think so? That there is another body made of mind, intelligence and ego?

Guest (2): Not, not in that sense.

Prabhupada: Yes. The mind is there. Everyone knows, you have got mind, I have got mind. But can you see the mind? Can you see the intelligence?

Guest (1): These are something abstract, you know.

Prabhupada: No, not abstract. These are material. You have no eyes to see.

Guest (1): Well, at present, we can, we have got three different methods of studying intelligence starting from six months onward up to the adult.

Prabhupada: Anyway, you accept. That is my point. Now you are studying, you accept. That means you accept there is intelligence. So besides this material body, gross material body, there is a subtle body. Subtle body. Just like besides your coat, there is a shirt, or there is a ganjee (?). Similarly, the soul is covered by the subtle body and the gross body. What is known as death, that is annihilation of the gross body. The subtle body remains there. And the subtle body carries him as he desires. The subtle body carries him to a place where he can again grow another material body according to the desire of the mind.

Guest (1): You mean the subtle body or the soul, the same thing?

Prabhupada: No, soul is different. Soul is different. Soul is finer than intelligence. These things are explained in the Bhagavad-gita.

Guest (4) (English woman): Could I ask please, if prana is the life force, isn't it? Is it the prana is the life force, isn't it?

Pradyumna: Says like prana is the life force.

Guest (4): Is it in different parts of the body?

Prabhupada: These are air. Prana, in the prana, air, the soul floats. Therefore the controlling the air is called pranayama. That is yogic process.

Guest (4): Thank you.

Prabhupada: Prana is a life air which carries the soul. It is very small, atomic. And not our men. Give her. She's answered. (laughs) Give her one.

Guest (4): Thank you.

Prabhupada: Give her one, that girl. Give all. (Bengali) You are a lawyer. (Bengali) That is not your business. You must know it.

Guest (3): (Bengali)

Prabhupada: That's a good qualification.

Guest (3): No.

Prabhupada: Why should you be bad qualified? (Bengali) Logic, it is logical. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Where is the illogic. You have passed your childhood body, you have passed your youth-hood body, you are in a different body. Although you are in a different body, you are existing. What better logic you can discover? You cannot discover any better logic than this. Don't accuse that we are illogical, don't accuse. We are logical, completely logical. But we have got brain to understand. Yes. Logic, you can put forward, but one must have the brain to understand it. If one is dull like stone, how he can understand logic? This is very clear logic. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na... [Bg. 2.13], dhirah, one who is sober, coolheaded, he understands. "Yes, it is all right."

Guest (2): I have taken quite a lot of your time, if you'll excuse me.

Prabhupada: No, my time is for this purpose, provided you kindly take it. But if you don't take it, then of course, that is a different thing. My time is spent for... I have dedicated my life for this purpose. I am touring all over the world giving this knowledge. It is sound logic. If you don't accept, you must give better logic, what you know. Don't think we are going under sentiment. Don't think like that. We have got sound logic.

Guest (2): I won't say that, but I'm not mentally prepared to that extent.

Prabhupada: That's all right, but if you are not prepared, then you learn how to become prepared. Then the same conclusion comes, that logic, you can give to the animals, but he cannot take it.

Guest (2): I don't think that logic can explain anything.

Prabhupada: No, logic cannot. But still as much logic you require, that logic is there.

Guest (2): Yes, but I don't know what Mr. Howard wants logic about, I don't know. But logic cannot explain anything and everything. And if mathematics or arithmetic, if we go through them, at one stage we can prove ten is equal to zero or nine is equal to zero. It is also possible by step by step...

Prabhupada: That may be possible, but it has no practical use. It has no practical use. If the banker gives you zero and you accept nine, then it is practical. But if you theoretically say all these things, that you may keep it in your pocket, but practically it has no use. Nine equal to zero and two equal to zero. That is not practical use.

Guest (2): As far as logic, I don't think logic can explain anything and everything.

Prabhupada: No, then it is skepticism. There is no progress of knowledge. There is no progress of knowledge. As far as man can understand, as Mr., you are Mr. Bannerji?

Guest (1): Mr. Howler. (?)

Prabhupada: Howler? Yes. So, there is little logic there, as a human being can understand. That's all. And if we accept this theory, that logic, our logic is imperfect, we cannot understand, then we have to accept authority. Just like a child. Mother says, "Here is your father." There is no logic. There is no logic. He has to accept. Only the mother version is logic, That's all. Authority. Is it not?

Guest (1): Yes, that's true.

Prabhupada: Then where there is no logic, the authority must be accepted. Therefore we accept that authority. Sabda-pramana. The best evidence. Sabda-pramana. There are different evidences. Out of that, veda-pramana, sabda-pramana is first class. All right, thank you very much. Jaya.

Mukunda: Srila Prabhupada, Pearl has been attending our temple and following the regulative principles.

Prabhupada: Very good.

Mukunda: And she wants to become initiated.

Prabhupada: Oh yes.

Pearl: I would like to have a Sanskrit name too please.

Prabhupada: Oh yes, you'll have.

Pearl: Thank you.

Prabhupada: You'll have. You like to be bald-headed?

Pearl: (laughs) No, I think I'll keep my hair if you don't mind. I can't give up everything.

Prabhupada: All right.

Pearl: If my leg could be healed, and I want to advance spiritually.

Prabhupada: Well, leg, you are different from leg. Yes. Even leg is not healed, you can be healed.

Pearl: You mean healed spiritually.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is real healing.

Pearl: Because it's keeping me from things I should be doing you see. I can't meet all my responsibilities through it.

Prabhupada: Give me little water. When they come to logic, when they give logic. (laughter)

Guest (1): Prabhupada, they don't want any.

Prabhupada: That is the dog's obstinacy. That is the mentality.

Guest (1): They lost their intelligence, by this civilization or by this culture.

Prabhupada: Yes. Adanta-gobhir, by losing that intelligence they are going to the hell. They do not know it. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. By uncontrolled senses... Because as soon as they come to spiritual life, they have to control senses. So that they do not like. That is very difficult.

Guest (1): Like he said: "I'm not prepared for that."

Prabhupada: Yes. Actually they are not prepared. Then you suffer.

Guest (1): Then you try to be prepared.

Prabhupada: They are not prepared because as soon as they understand that they are going to be one these varieties of life, they shudder. Therefore they do not like to understand this. If by logic I prove that you are going to be a dog next life, that is very difficult. Just like one astrologer has said that Jawaharlal Nehru has become a dog in Sweden. You know that?

Guest (1): No, I don't.

Prabhupada: Yes. In Delhi, one astrologer.

Guest (1): Delhi, some astrologer said?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): What does the government of India say about that, any comment?

Prabhupada: That I do not know.

Guest (1): Are they going to worship there? (laughter)

Prabhupada: Well, they do not believe in astrology. Therefore they cannot take any step. They do not believe in next life, so they cannot take any step. And whether it is a fact or not, because they do not believe in next life, so what is the use of taking step? Is it as good as to say that Jawaharlal Nehru has become Indra. If somebody says like that, so they'll have to discard this thing also, and they have to discard that thing also. Because they do not believe in the next life. Simply by presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is, we can defy all these rascals. Everything is there. Bhagavad-gita was not presented as it is. That is the defect. The first thing is: tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Nobody understands. And they are students of Bhagavad-gita. Even Gandhi, he did not understand, dehantara-praptih. All these political leaders, they do not understand what is dehantara-praptih. What do you think, Bhadra Krsna? The dehantara-praptih, do they understand?

Bhadra Krsna: It's not something known.

Prabhupada: Yes. They do not understand.

Guest (1): (Bengali) Gandhiji, he was politician, he was actually not devotee, and he could not understand Bhagavad-gita. But how the name of Rama has come when he died? The name of Rama, Hare Rama, has come from his last word. How it has come. It is, it is...

Prabhupada: Practice, practice. Raghupati raghava raja rama.

Guest (1): So that came at the last word.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): It is due to his pious or practice.

Prabhupada: Practice. That will act, that will act, that will act.

Guest (1): So this was my question about how, he was not acting, but...,

Prabhupada: No. He did not know. But because he was chanting raghupati raghava raja rama, that has given him this effect, yes. On account of chanting. But he really did not understand. Just like the same example, the Mohammedan. He said "ha rama." He wanted to speak "harama," but it become "ha rama." That is the... He did not know anything about Rama, but the name Rama is so powerful that although he said, "harama," it effected. Yes. But Gandhi may not know the purpose of Bhagavad-gita, but as he chanted "ha rama," that has been effective.

Pearl: I wondered what "Rama" meant when we say the mantra, Hare Rama, you see.

Prabhupada: Rama means...

Guest (3): So it was not due to his pious activities, but only he was practicing.

Prabhupada: No, that is pious activity, that is pious activity.

Guest (1): That is why at the time of death he spoke Rama, raghupati raghava raja rama.

Prabhupada: He was a pious man.

Guest (1): He was pious man.

Prabhupada: Undoubtedly.

Guest (1): So he chanted "Rama" in practice.

Prabhupada: Daily he was chanting raghupati raghava raja rama. So...,

Guest (3): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes. Where this chanting effect will go? Yes. The chanting... Hare Krsna. But I mean to say that he could not teach what Rama.

Guest (1): (laughs) No.

Prabhupada: That is his misfortune. But in spite of his misfortune, because he was practiced to chant the name of Rama, he was pious. Although he was ignorant. He was absorbed in thought of politics. He should have, if he would have understood that Rama is a fact, Krsna is a fact... That he did not understand. Then he would have preached the glories of Rama, glories of Krsna. He took the chanting of Rama for his political purposes. He utilized for political purpose. Just like... That is nama-aparadha. Samah subha-kriya mati pramanah (?). He was trying to get some material profit by chanting the holy name of Rama. That he got, material profit. He was the most famous politician, all over the world.

Guest (1): But he did not accept any post, you know that? At the same time...,

Prabhupada: But he also accepted "Mahatma" although what...

Guest (1): But not political post.

Prabhupada: That is another trick, it may be. Or he did not like. It may be. Because he was so great, what is the presidency? Presidency elected post for five years. But he was recognized all over the world as a great leader. That is greater than any president's post or prime minister's post. So that is not much. But the thing is that if he was actually aware of the importance of Rama, that he did not. He took it, "Rama" as some means for his political purpose. But still it effected. At the time of death he said, "Rama." So...

Guest (1): So you think he has gone to heaven or some, what is his position?

Prabhupada: No... But because he did not understand Rama, therefore he cannot go to the kingdom of God. But he'll get very high position.

Guest (1): High position.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He may go to the heavenly planet

Guest (1): Still in the material world.

Srutakirti: He said he's still in the material world. Heavenly planets is still the material world.

Prabhupada: Heaven is in the material world. Heaven is in the material world. You can get greater standard of life, greater duration of life, that's all. Higher standard of life. Just like Brahma. Brahma's one day you cannot calculate. He's so powerful, how he's created this universe. But he is in the material world. He's also a living entity like us, but very exalted. So he cannot get the post of Brahma. But he can get life in higher planetary system. That is certain. That is explained in the, find out that verse. That is explained in the...um. That verse, yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate sucinam srimatam gehe [Bg. 6.41]. But he did not understand Bhagavad-gita, that's a fact.

Guest (1): But what about this position of Valmiki or Ramayana?

Prabhupada: They went to the kingdom of God. They knew what is Rama.

Guest (1): They knew.

Prabhupada: Yes. They are not in vague understanding.

Guest (1): They wouldn't be able to write Ramayana if he didn't understand Lord Ramacandra?

Prabhupada: Yes. He had meditated for sixty thousands of years.

Guest (1): But I think it was Gandhi who said that Kuruksetra is this body, five Pandavas is the five senses and this is all interpretation concoction.

Prabhupada: (laughs) He did not understand, that's a fact. But even this child, he does not understand, but if he chants Hare Krsna, that will be effective. If he understands or not understand. It doesn't matter.

Guest (1): The name is so powerful.

Prabhupada: Yes. What is that?

Pradyumna: Prapya punya-krtam lokan.

Prabhupada: Ah, prapya punya-krtam lokan. This is the... So punya-krtam lokan means heavenly planet. Prapya punya-krtam lokan. You cannot go to the heavenly planet unless you are very pious. So he's promoted in heavenly planet where the duration of life is very long, standard of living is very nice. But there is no Krsna consciousness. What is that, prapya punya-krtam lokan?

Pradyumna: Usitva sasvatih samah [Bg. 6.41].

Prabhupada: Usitva sasvatih samah. For a very long time. Because to get life in the heavenly planets means at least ten thousands of years. In their calculation. Their one day is equal to six months. In that way ten thousand years. Usitva sasvatih samah. What is it? Usitva sasvatih samah?

Pradyumna: Usitva sasvatih samah, sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate [Bg. 6.41].

Prabhupada: Then, again they come down to this material world and he takes birth either in a very exalted brahmana family, sucinam, or very rich, vaisya family. After enjoying there, again he's given chance to become Krsna conscious. And if he misses, then again he goes down. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura says these are all false elevation. If I have to come again back, again I have to accept another lower grade life, then what is the profit? Krsna gives His straight understanding, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti: [Bg. 4.9] You become Krsna conscious. After the giving up this body, no more material body either in the heavenly planet or in the lower hellish planet. "You come direct to Me." That is perfection. You should not be attracted by somebody has gone to heavenly planet for ten thousands of years living. We should not be attracted by these things. Therefore Prabodhananda Sarasvati says, kaivalyam narakayate tridasa-pur akasa-puspayate. Tridasa-pur means the heavenly planets. Akasa, it is just like will of the wisp. Something, just like, what do you say Hindi? There are many proverbs, which has no existence. Just like in Bengali we say ghoda-dima. Ghoda-dima. Dima means egg. The horse never lays down egg. But the word is running on: "the egg of horse." So it has no existence but the word is there. Similarly, what do you say in Hindi? Something which has no existence but it is current. I think there is.

Guest (1): Hawaikila (?).

Prabhupada: Hawaikila, yes. Hawaikila means in the air there is a fort. It is something like, the Vaisnava considers the heavenly planets, that hawaikila. That's all.

Guest (1): This rich birth is important for self-realization?

Prabhupada: Next birth?

Devotees: Rich birth, to be born in a rich family.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. But there is facility. Because people are harassed for getting food and shelter. Everyone is working so hard where to get nice food, where to get nice shelter. Rich man means he has already got. So if he's sane, if he's good, has got good association, direction, then he can think, that "I have no anxiety for my food, shelter and other necessities of life. So how I shall utilize my time?" And if he gets good guru, then he can utilize very nicely, chanting Hare Krsna, Krsna consciousness. That is a chance. He hasn't got to work. Because people are very much perplexed how to get shelter, how to get food. But he has got the chance. He hasn't got to endeavor for food and shelter and other necessities of the body. Ample he has got. He can save time for spiritual advancement. That is an advantage. It is not necessary. It is almost disadvantage. But actually it is advantage. Unfortunately, those who are born in rich family, they take advantage of it that "I have got so much money, let me enjoy sense gratification." Maya dictates, "Oh, you have got so much money. Utilize for wine-woman." That's all.

Guest (1): People say about Uraya Karan Singh...

Prabhupada: Karan Singh?

Guest (1): ...of Kashmir, he's a very pious man, and because rich birth and he is a pious as well, is it?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): Very religious and...

Prabhupada: No, I have seen him. He's religious temperament. Not very. He loves Krsna. No, he's a good man.

Guest (1): That's a good example, example like that.

Guest (1): Likes the Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Yes, he's a good man. He's good scholar also, educated.

Guest (1): He was coming but I don't know why he has not come due to this...? This last year hearing Bhagavatam discourses he accepted he would come come. We got his letter also.

Prabhupada: This is due to government post.

Guest (1): And he also accepted an invitation, we invited him, He said he'd also come, but this Pakistan war started.

Prabhupada: Still there are so many respectable person came. The governor came, the high-court justices and that, the Canadian ambassador came. Many men came. And he was very humble. He sat down below.

Guest (1): You didn't see the high commissioner there. He sat down.

Prabhupada: He's also a very nice man.

Guest (1): Maybe some pious activities that they have.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (1): But this is their duty to respect.

Prabhupada: [break] ...in this planet. In order to be elevated to the kingdom of God, they cannot go directly from the heavenly planet. They'll have to come here.

Guest (1): There are many stories in Mahabharata. Many, many kings, they went to heavenly planets and from there. Many stories.

Prabhupada: Ksine punye martya-lokam visanti [Bg. 9.21]. You have got prasada? Not yet. Come on. Any more? Any more? Another? Come on. (end)