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December 18, 1973, Los Angeles
Prajapati: ...big gold letters over the whole front of the building where they were having inauguration of vice-president, "In God we Trust," big letters. So they are advertising for us already. For Krsna.
Prabhupada: Who is the vice-president?
Devotees: Gerald Ford.
Prabhupada: Belonging to the Ford family?
Devotee: Not the people that make the cars, no. Different Ford.
Prajapati: If we were there and we could make one speech in front of that assembled Congress and Senate, the main government of the United States, what were the main points we would stress?
Prabhupada: Yes. The main point is that "In God we trust," on this slogan... So the same point that, "What do you mean by God and what do you mean by trust? That you do not know." So you have to explain what is God and what is trust, thoroughly, from our books. Our point of propaganda should be that "It is very good that you write this slogan, 'In God we trust,' but nobody has got clear conception of God; neither they do not know what is the meaning of trust. Under the circumstances, so you have to learn it scientifically. And our propaganda is like that, to teach actually what is God and what is trust. And you important men of the state, you come forward, try to understand, and open schools, colleges. Make it perfectly known what is God. And make America strong. As the Communist party, they are preaching godlessness, now America should preach, 'No, in God we trust.' Now there should be a fight, not on the political point of view, but actually it includes everything. A class of men godless and a class of men who knows God. There should be fight. Then there will be peace in the world. The class of men who do not believe in God, they should be punished, because they are creating all the troubles. A man who trusts in God, he is the ideal man. He will never create any trouble. Therefore this science should be learned very scientifically. And we are prepared. And you also must be able to teach them. Then it will be successful." (Aside:) You leave little aloof. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. "Anyone who does not know what is God and does not know how to trust in God, he is animal. So how you can expect a human civilization composed of some animals? That you have to learn from us. If you are serious. If you simply make it a slogan, but you remain same as the man who does not know what is God, then what is the meaning of this slogan? That will not help you." Just like sometimes they put the signboard, "Goodman and Company," businessmen. The signboard is "Goodman," but he is cheating simply, from business point of view. That kind of signboard will not help you. If you actually believe in God, then try to understand what is God. Otherwise how you can believe? If you do not know the person in whom you have to trust, how you can trust Him? Is it clear or not? I say, "Trust in Him," but if I do not know that man, how I can trust? You must explain that "This man is in this way trustworthy." Otherwise what is the meaning of my trust? This science should be understood, what is God and what is trust. That you discuss thoroughly, threadbare. Otherwise how you will be able to preach? Ask all questions. I will answer. But you must be thoroughly conversant that there is need of God and everyone must trust in God. This is the standard of civilization. God is there. Without God, there cannot be anything existing. This is first point. And we must trust in God. Those who are speaking, "In God we trust," at least they believe that there is God. Now, where is God, how He is living, what He is doing, this must be known. Just like in your America, there is need of a president. But those who are advanced in American history, they must know what is that president, what is his position, what is the constitution. That is, means perfect knowledge must be there about God, and perfect knowledge how to trust Him. This is now required. Otherwise the world is going to... Not that theologicians' speculation on God. First thing is, there is God. Now, how people can be convinced that there is God? Tell me. Speak.
Giriraja: Well, all of these different varieties of plants, animals, planetary systems, the sun rising, there has to be some controller, some brain who has made this order.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the background. But you have to explain.
Giriraja: Their speaking power, that they are making their political speeches, that is also given by God.
Giriraja: At any moment it can be taken away. So they are under control. But they will raise the point that "We have our concept of God and you have your concept of God."
Prabhupada: No. God cannot be "your God" or "my God." God is one. You cannot say that. Just like you cannot say in the United States that "your concept of president, my concept of president." President is one. If you manufacture your concept of president, that means you do not know what is president. President of United States, he has got a status, constitution, that "This is the president." So you must know that. You cannot say, "I have my concept of president." That you cannot say. Can you say that?
Prabhupada: Then? The president is one. Either you don't know or I don't know. So we must know what is that president. This is first point, what is God.
Devotee: By argument you can convince a skeptic of the possibility of the existence of God, but the reality of Godhead can only be really realized... I mean has to be experienced or realized, does it not?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is a point of realization. But the first preamble is that there must be God, the Supreme Being. In the dictionary it is stated, Supreme Being. So as in every department, everywhere, there is a supreme controller. Same example. The president is the supreme controller of this state. United States. In another state, in India also, the president is the supreme controller. Similarly, taking the whole universe or many such millions of universes taken together, there must be a Supreme Being. Otherwise how things are going on, nicely? [break] This is our first point.
Devotee: The scientists say that everything had its origin with a big bang. All of a sudden one day there was a big bang and everything came into being.
Prabhupada: What is that big bang. You do not know. It is your suggestion. Big bang means big brain or what? Big bang? What is that, a big bang?
Prabhupada: Hm? (aside:) Don't come near. Noise? Big bang, what is that big bang?
Devotee: The scientists say that in the beginning the universe wasn't created, and then all of a sudden there was a big explosion and everything just kind of happened. Everything just came into being.
Prabhupada: But how all of a sudden there can be explosion? What is this nonsense proposition? As soon as there is question of explosion, before the explosion takes place, there must be some arrangement. The time bomb explosion. So the bomb is prepared by something, some bomb is kept by somebody, and after some time it explodes. So how all of a sudden? Where does he get this idea? Just like if there is bomb explosion here, a child may think, "All of a sudden there is a bomb explosion," but a sane man will not think that. There will be inquiry, "Who kept this bomb? Who brought this bomb?" That is sanity. "And all of a sudden explosion," this is all rascal proposal. Therefore the people have become so rascal, guided by these rascals, "All of a sudden, by chance," and they accept them as scientist... This is the drawback of the present civilization. Because they are sudras, like animals, they have got no brain to answer that "How all of a sudden there can be explosion." They have no brain even to ask. Rather, they are giving Nobel Prize. This rascal is speaking like a rascal, still, he should get Nobel Prize. That is the defect. The people at the present moment, they are all rascals. Just like animals. And yes, actually they are animals. Just like animals are eating, sleeping, mating, and eating meat. The other one animal is eating another animal. That's all. No discretion, nothing. This is a civilization of animals, polished animals. Their consciousness has become animalistic. Therefore this Krsna consciousness movement. Just like children. They are animals, just like animals. They have no fixed program. Whatever they like, they are doing. Whatever they like, they are speaking. Simply they are interested in eating. So at the present moment, because they have lost all their power of reasoning and understanding, they are all animals. "All of a sudden there is an explosion." How explosion can take place like that? Any sane human being will ask that "How is that?" Same example: If there is some explosion in the park, a rascal will say, "All of a sudden there is explosion." But the government, police department, immediately inquire, "How this bomb came? Wherefrom? Who placed it?" That is humanity. That is human reasoning. "And all of a sudden there is explosion," you have to accept that. You accept that?
Devotee: I don't accept it.
Prabhupada: Then? No sane man will accept. The so-called scientists, begin, all beginning is like that. "There were chemicals, these chemicals." Now wherefrom these chemicals came? Who placed these chemicals? They do not ask. Because they are fools, the other fools bluff them and they accept it. But we are not going to accept. We shall inquire. And that is human intelligence.
Giriraja: But they may say "Where did God come from?"
Prabhupada: No, no, God, not "come from." By experience you are speaking that things are... Just like the explosion. Explosion was there because God was there. Therefore God is there. The explosion cannot take place by chance, all of a sudden. There was somebody, some brain, and that brain is God. Because you say all of a sudden there was explosion, therefore that is the proof of existence of God. Is it clear or not?
Devotee: Something can't come from nothing.
Prabhupada: No. We have no such experience. How we accept this nonsense statement? We have no such experience. I can accept something that is going on. Can you show me? So we show. You study with your experience. Where is your experience that something comes all of a sudden? There is no such thing. So how can I accept your statement? Because you say, "There was explosion," that means there is God. That means there is God. So what is your argument? You say that "Why you bring God?" I bring God because you say, "There was explosion."
Giriraja: No, you're saying that "Something cannot come from nothing."
Giriraja: So therefore this explosion came from God. But then where did God come from?
Prabhupada: That is God. God is always existing. Not "come from." That is God. Nityo nityanam. You are also existing. This knowledge, they are lacking. Just like I am, you are, we are eternal. We are eternal. We are changing body. Because they do not believe or do not try to understand that I am not this body, therefore the whole mistake is there.
Devotee: The scientists would use the same argument. The scientists would say, "Well, since I have not experienced that I am eternal, therefore how can I accept that I am eternal?"
Prabhupada: Yes, you are eternal. Because you were a child and now you are grown up, but you know that you were a child. Therefore you are eternal. You were a child, but you have no that child's body. Now you have got a different body. So although you have got different body, you know that you had a body like a child. Therefore body has changed. You have not changed. That is eternity.
Giriraja: And nobody wants to die.
Prabhupada: Nobody wants to die.
Giriraja: If the soul is not eternal, where has that desire...
Prabhupada: No. This is eternity. This is practical eternity. You have changed so many times your body, but you are the same person. Therefore you are eternal, in spite of changing body. This is simple argument.
Prajapati: I used that argument once, Srila Prabhupada, and the scientists said to me, "It is the chromosomes, the tiny chromosomes that do that change."
Prabhupada: That is their jugglery of words, these rascals. (laughter) "Chromosome, promosome." He will manufacture some word. But where is your chromosome of child body? What is that child body? Where it has gone? If you know, "chromosome, promosome," where has your child's body gone? That is the difficulty. These rascals, they do not know anything. Still, they are teachers and manufacture some jugglery of words. That's all. That is the difficulty. "Chromosome." What is that chromosome? What does it mean, chromosome?
Prajapati: It is a tiny structure of organic matter that can constantly reproduce...
Prabhupada: That's all right. When reproduce, the last body is gone.
Prajapati: They say that the chromosomes that are transferred from father to son...
Prabhupada: Still, the father's body is not the son's body. It is different body.
Prajapati: It has come from father's body.
Prabhupada: That all right, but the father's body is different. The father's pains and pleasure and the son's pains and pleasure are not the same. It may be that the father has given the ingredient of the body, but that does not mean the father's body and the son's body the same. Neither the mind is same, neither intelligence is same. It is all different. Otherwise why a son becomes disobedient to the father, "I don't agree with you"? That means, "Your intelligence, your mind, is different from my mind. I cannot agree with you." Therefore everything is different.
Devotee: They can accept that our bodies are changing now, but in the next life they have no experience of this.
Prabhupada: No, next life, this is experience. You were a child, this is your next life.
Devotee: They can see this body change, but the next life, they cannot see.
Prabhupada: That means you have no... You cannot see so many things. Does it mean that it does not exist? What is the value of your eyes? That I already explained. You cannot see. Now it is a misty. You cannot see anything. Does it mean your eyes are perfect. How you can see? Your eyes are not perfect. What you cannot see, you have to hear. Suppose in a distant place I cannot see. "What is that light?" I say. But if somebody knows, "Oh, that light is from..., there is a skyscraper building like this, and the light is coming." So I know what I cannot see, I can hear. Therefore what you do not see, next life, you have to hear from authority. That is stated in the Bhagavata, tatha dehantara-praptih: [Bg. 2.13] "As you have changed so many times in this life, this body, similarly, after death, you will change your body." That is authority. You have to hear. Anything you do not, cannot perceive, you cannot experiment with your senses, you have to hear from another person who knows. That is the process. Why you think your eyes are so perfect that you can see anything? Why you are thinking like rascal? Your eyes are imperfect, and why you are thinking that eyes are perfect? That is rascaldom. I cannot see. You cannot see so many things. Is that a right proposition? I cannot see. What you are? What is your position of eyes? If there is darkness, you cannot see. So does it mean that your seeing is the only evidence? What do you think? Suppose if you are a blind man, what can you see?
Devotee: My senses are imperfect. I cannot see.
Prabhupada: Yes. You see under certain condition. That's all. So how you believe in such seeing power? Therefore we have to see through the eyes of a person who has perfect vision. That is wanted. Why do you use microscope, telescope, binocular? Why do you use if your eyes are perfect? Why do you use? If you are so confident that your eyes are perfect, why do you use these instruments? And how it is guaranteed that your instrument is also right? Because it is manufactured by your imperfect senses. So this is the position.
Jayahari: It is just like the scientists. They cannot accept the existence of the soul until they see it.
Prabhupada: No, that is explained. Why you are repeating that? You have no seeing power, still, you are boast of seeing. That is your rascaldom. That is your rascaldom. Yes. There was a question in a newspaper. A child is asking his father, "Father, you were a girl or a boy in childhood?" Because he has no distinction what is the boy, what is the girl, therefore he is asking that nonsense question. Now, my second son, when he was four years old, we were passing, and there was a big marriage party. You know how marriage party goes?
Giriraja: Oh yes.
Prabhupada: So he was asking. Very intelligent boy, he was asking, "What is this? What is...?" So I also explained, "This man is going to marry." So in this way, after, "Father, you were married?" He asked me. So this nonsense question is there. He does not know, "Without marriage, how I am come into existence?" So these questions are like that, childish questions. It has no meaning. [break] ...the Vedic injunctions is tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. One must approach guru. Guru means heavy, who knows perfectly. You must go there to learn. And actually it is happening. Why the children are sent to school? When he becomes educated, the same eyes, same hands, same legs, same body, but he becomes educated. What is the different between educated and not educated? Because he has heard from authorities. That's all. This is education. Without going to school, he is not considered to be educated. Why? Because he did not hear from the authorities. Therefore he is uneducated. Let him learn everything. He has got the eyes. He has got the senses. Why he is sent to school? Why? Tell me, why? He has got the eyes. Why he is sent to school for education?
Devotee: To hear from the authority.
Prabhupada: Because his eyes have no value without hearing from the authority. These are the general psychology. He has got eyes. Let him be educated at home. Why he is sent to school? Let him see everything. How these rascals say like that, I am surprised. "I cannot see in my eyes." You cannot see in your eyes what was the length and breadth of your body in the mother's womb. But does it mean that you did not exist in the mother's womb? You cannot see who is your father. How do you believe that this is my father? Is that depending on your eyes? Then what is the value of your eyes? Why these rascals say that "I do not see." These things prove that they are rascals.
Giriraja: Most of the things in their theories they also have not seen.
Prabhupada: They have so many things. They simply speak like rascals. Therefore our conclusion is: Anyone who does not know what is God, he is a rascal. That is perfection of knowledge. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. These rascals, they do not know that all knowledge is imperfect unless he comes to the platform of knowing God. All knowledge imperfect. And that is confirmed in the Bhagavad..., bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] "When he (is) actually wise in knowledge, then he surrenders to God." That is knowledge. That is knowledge. One who has surrendered to God, one who has known God, one who is abiding by the order of God, he is the perfect man. All others, they are rascals.
Prajapati: After hearing such nice information about God, I think some sincere men might come forward and say...
Prabhupada: Yes. Any gentleman, any sincere man, must accept this proposition. It is so logical.
Prajapati: They will come forward and say, "Now, what practical can we do to help implement these in the government, in the world? What can we do practical?"
Prabhupada: Yes. That you take instruction from us. Because you are all rascals, you do not know. We are experienced. Take advice from us. First thing is that you close the slaughterhouse. Close the liquor house. Will they do that?
Prajapati: It is a question of business. Businessmen have so much control...
Prabhupada: Business or whatever nonsense it may be, but our first proposal is that you become sinless. But they will not agree. They will remain sinful, and still they will say, "In God we believe, we trust," these slogans. "We go to church, we pray," like that. This is the defect. A man has come for your... You are a physician for treatment. As soon as the physician says that "You don't do this," you say, "I cannot give up this." Then how he will be cured? Let him rot. This is the position.
Srutakirti: You said to me in the garden the other day that there are two kind of ignorant people. One is ignorant innocent and the other is rascal ignorant, and that we should preach to the innocent. But all these politicians, they are not innocent, they are rascal.
Prabhupada: They are rascal. They are rascal. Maybe some of them are innocent also. But mostly they are rascal because without being first-class rascal, one cannot go into politics. Just like if somebody says... Now, election. Somebody says that "You become vice-president." So why shall I become vice-president? Because I know I shall not be able to do anything. So why shall I waste my time? So another rascal, he will be ready. "Oh, offering vice-president?" But I know that if I want to manage the state, I have to make the people sinless. So if I propose that "Stop this slaughterhouse," so who will accept me? So why shall I go there? Nobody will accept me. Senate, senators, they will say, "Oh, this is business. This is impractical. You have no experience." He will immediately reject. So therefore mass of people must be conscious what is God, what is sin. So when they will be prepared, these rascals will be changed.
Devotee: They would lose too much money if they closed the slaughterhouses. Many of the senators and congressmen have much money from the slaughterhouses and intoxication. They own big ranches of cows and bulls.
Prabhupada: Just see. And they are leaders. The most sinful man is the leader. So how you can be happy?
Prajapati: We would get support from the people who make imitation meat made of soybeans and vegetables that taste like meat. They would be in favor.
Giriraja: No, they will say that "It is not against our religion to eat meat."
Prabhupada: It is not religion. It is a question of becoming sinless. Every religion will say that you become sinless. Every religion.
Giriraja: But in my religion eating meat is not a sin.
Prabhupada: No, no. "My religion is, cut throat of another man is religion?" Would it be accepted?
Prabhupada: If somebody says, "My religion is to cut throat of others, to pickpocket others. That is my religion." Would it be accepted? Why sometimes you are arrested. You say, "My religion is to chant." They will say, "No, you cannot do this. It is disturbance." So "Because it is my religion, it will be accepted," that is not a fact. You must come to philosophy and reasoning: "Why don't you cut throat your... Why don't you send your... You say complain, over-population. Why don't you send the over-population to the slaughterhouse? Why? Why?"
Giriraja: Well, it would be inhuman.
Prabhupada: Inhuman. And then cutting throat of the cows, that is not human. Is that very good reasoning?
Devotee: They don't think that the cows have souls, many of them.
Prabhupada: That is their rascaldom. Rascals. Why no soul? What is the symptom of having soul?
Prabhupada: Yes. So they have no consciousness? Then children? They treat like animals. They have no soul? Then better send all the children to the slaughterhouse. Their, children's flesh is very sweet and palatable.
Devotee: They made a movie like that, Srila Prabhupada, about people... They give up their lives and they are sent to this place where they are mashed up and made into meat, and the people eat them.
Prabhupada: Yes. They do that in many hotels. They, it was in India done. The childcatcher? What is called?
Prabhupada: Kidnappers. They kidnap and they slaughter, and mix with other meat. It becomes very tasteful. In hotel, one body found a finger of a child. In Kanpur.
Devotee: Some social scientists were saying that in twenty years cannibalism will be as acceptable among the society as illicit sex is now.
Prabhupada: Yes. They will do that. Because people are degrading. They are not advancing.
Prajapati: When we tell them to stop their sinful activities, they will say "What do you mean by sinful?"
Prabhupada: Sinful means, generally, what is against the law of God. That is sinful. Just like what is criminal? Any action which is against the law of the state, that is criminal. Similarly, sinful means what is against the law of God. That is sinful. But you do not know what is God. You do not know what is the law of God. Therefore you do not know what is sin. That you have to learn from us. It is all due to ignorance. Now God says, "I am the father of all living entities." So this is quite reasonable. If there is God... So... And it is stated in the Vedic literature, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). He is the chief eternal. So we are all sons of God. What we are? Simply human being? No. In the Bhagavad, sarva-yonisu: "In all species of life, as many forms are there, I am the bija-pradah-pita." So everyone is your brother. So suppose if you want to cut throat of your brother, will your father be happy?
Prabhupada: So because you are not God conscious you are doing all this nonsense. You do not know who is father. Therefore you cut throat, your brother. [break] ...that those who are eating vegetables, they are also killing. That's a fact. But God says that "You can eat this." God says... By nature... Just like the animal. They will eat these leaves, the grass. Nature. But they will not eat meat. Tena tyaktena. Whatever God dictates, "Now you eat this," He is eating. But you give him meat. No, he will not take it. So whatever you are allotted, you should eat. That is God's law, that after all, one has to eat. So what you will eat? Everything is living. Therefore allotted. You are allotted, "These things is allotted for you. You eat." We God conscious people therefore eat... Without going into the details, we eat anything what God eats. That's all. There is no question of discriminating what we shall eat. We eat prasadam. That's all. So we are safe.
Devotee: They will say that Jesus Christ ate meat.
Prabhupada: All right, Jesus Christ took meat, but Jesus Christ never said that you maintain slaughterhouse. Is there any Bible, anything?
Prabhupada: Then you eat meat. All right. You kill and meat. Why you are maintaining slaughterhouse? Is that Jesus Christ's instruction, rascal? Thousands of slaughterhouse you are maintaining under the order of Jesus Christ? So they are rascals. You eat meat, all right. Jesus Christ, meat... Of course, once, twice he might have because he was a... (end)
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