December 8, 1973, Los Angeles
Prabhupada: They must neglect because foolish, they cannot solve. They're rascal. They cannot solve. They're simply pleased with some what is called, temporary success. That's all. The ultimate success is not the... Professor Einstein, he was very big scientist but he could not solve his death. He was to die.
Hrdayananda: Boy! That's amazing.
Prabhupada: He has to die. He could not solve his death and he's a big scientist. What kind of scientist is that?
Prabhupada: The real problem remain unsolved.
Devotee: ...death is blindness.
Prabhupada: Ha? No. That is rascaldom. They do not see the real problem. Neither they're able to solve it. They're simply happy by some... Just like child. The child, he wants to play whole day long. He does not care. Like that. This human life is meant for making a perfect solution of all problems. That they do not care. There is some temporary benefit. They're very much busy and known as scientist.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But if it can be attained, then you do not know. Then you are foolish. You say that cannot be attained. But I say it is possible. Sastra states, Krsna says—the whole thing is discovered. Simply understand Krsna and next life you become eternal. This is Krsna consciousness. Simply if you go to our temple and see Krsna, you'll be devotee. You don't do anything. Don't talk anything. Simply see Krsna. It is so easy. You simply see Krsna and take Krsna's prasadam and live comfortably and next life you'll go to back to home back to Godhead.
Prabhupada: Yes, very good. Yes. Susukham kartum avyayam. Another facility, if you cannot finish your Krsna job, then whatever you have done, that is permanent. Next life you begin from there. Nothing is lost. Abhayam, abhayam, permanent.
Prabhupada: Finish? Finish means fully, you do not know anything except Krsna. That is finish.
Prabhupada: Pure devotee, yes. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He had no other business than Krsna, everything. That is the ideal perfection. [break] Sunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me. Everything is vacant without Krsna. That is perfection. [break] No, that determination will come automatically when you are advanced.
Prabhupada: Krsna is wonderful, either I talk or you talk. (laughs) He's wonderful. A sweetmeat is sweet. Either you give or I give, it is sweet. [break] ...your scientist will try to understand that "Krsna has given us the metal, Krsna has given us the intelligence, now we have prepared nice airship, and Krsna has given us the sky to fly." Appreciate like that. Then your Krsna consciousness... Actually that is the fact. If there was no sky, where would you fly your scientific advancement? And if there was no metal, how could you manufacture? If you had no intelligence, how could you do it? So everything is given by Krsna, and you are denying Krsna. How fool you are, just see? This is Krsna consciousness. Simply accept that "Everything is given by Krsna. We are utilizing it." That is Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: Krsna wants that much, that you accept that "All facilities are given by Me," that much.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, actually that is the fact. But that is done, bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19]. Those who are rascals, they do it—they will have to do it—but after many, many births, not immediately. They'll suffer. They'll have to go through so many species of life, and one day they'll come to the understanding, "Yes, vasudevah sarvam iti: 'Everything is Krsna.' " Sa mahatma sudurlabhah: "That mahatma is very rare, very rare."
Yasomatinandana: When the Indians come to the temple, Prabhupada, I tell them that mahatma is not manufactured or rubber stamped. Here Krsna says what mahatma means. I say that anybody who takes to Krsna consciousness is mahatma.
Yasomatinandana: And anybody who is not Krsna conscious, however great he may be in people's eyes, but he's not mahatma.
Prabhupada: He's a duskrtina. Demon. Yes. Mayayapahrta-jnana asuram bhavam asritah [Bg. 7.15], moghasa mogha-karmanah. [break] So what is your theory? Do you think that God is under theory?
Prajapati: They think so. They concoct. They make up God.
Prabhupada: So if you make up God, then is that God? If God is subjected to your manufacturing process, so what kind of God He is?
Prajapati: Largely they've come to realize that, so they've turned away from even discussing God. They use their theology simply to make comments about the world situation. Theology today, they do not even discuss deity.
Hrdayananda: Sometimes they argue that "God has revealed Himself within my heart, so I don't need to read any books because I have a special connection with God."
Prabhupada: But your revelation and my revelation different. Why?
Hrdayananda: "Because God has so many different aspects that He reveals a different aspect to everyone."
Prabhupada: That is their argument. Then what is the standard of that aspect? Just like in the material world we see, somebody richer than others. This is also aspect of material situation. So if one is millionaire, he is better than a person who has got a few coins. So similarly, your realization of God and my realization of God, different. So I may be greater realized than you. What do you say, theologian?
Prajapati: Well, today, Prabhupada most of the literature is written on subjects of death of God, an eclipse of God, the fact that the people in general, it's a secular society and no one is even discussing God.
Prabhupada: That means they have failed. After discussing when they could not find out actually what is God, they have given up the idea. Failure.
Prajapati: They think of it as actually a maturity. "We needed to talk about God when we were infants, and now we are advanced."
Prabhupada: So maturity, you must give what is that standard God, if it is mature. Mature means you must give the real standard. That is mature. But if nobody of you can give the what is the real standard, then how it is mature? Bali Mardana Prabhu, what do you think? Mature means the final conclusion. Just like in scientific theory. All the scientists come into conclusion, "Yes, this is the..."
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes, they don't know. That's it.
Karandhara: No, they've just become mature atheists.
Prabhupada: Mature atheists, yes.
Karandhara: Even though... at most they say God just means goodness or truth.
Prabhupada: But they do not know what is that goodness. They have no knowledge what is the standard of goodness. Somebody is cutting the throat; he's also good. And somebody is very sober; he is also good. So what is the standard of goodness?
Karandhara: That's what they argue about, write books on. Mostly they make vague references and emotional pleas for goodness and honesty.
Prabhupada: No, what is that honesty and what is that goodness? They must give some definition.
Prajapati: You've summed it up very nicely, Srila Prabhupada, when you call them just jugglers of words.
Prabhupada: So, what is the standard of goodness according to your scientific view?
Hrdayananda: They say, "Just don't... If someone does what he likes and doesn't hurt anyone else, that's good."
Karandhara: They don't do that.
Hrdayananda: "If I just do my thing for God but I don't hurt anyone, that's good."
Prabhupada: No. No, no many times they...
Hrdayananda: Many times they say that...
Prabhupada: They have no standard. But we have got definition of God. That is the difference. What is our definition?
Satsvarupa: Supreme controller.
Prajapati: That person who is complete with all six opulences...
Prajapati: ...in total fullness.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is God.
Prabhupada: Bhagavan. Aisvaryasya samagrasya viryasya yasasah sriyah, jnana-vairagyayos caiva sad iti bhagavan ganah. (?)
Prabhupada: Why imagination? It is not imagination. Just like I am a man. I have got hundred dollars. He has got thousand dollars. He has got four thousand or five thousand. In this way we see comparative. One is richer than other, other, other. Then why there shall not be somebody who is richest of all? We see practically. How can you deny? That is God. Power, strength—you are stronger than me, he is stronger than you, he is stronger, like that. But if we find somebody, that nobody is stronger than him, he is God. Education, beauty, all the six opulences, you compare. Because we see comparative, so there must be somebody ideal, above whom there is no more education, no more wisdom, no more beauty. That is God.
Prabhupada: Why they should be hesitant? That is their foolishness. We see comparative, superlative, in our experience.
Prabhupada: Imagination? That is atheism. Why imagination? This is the definition of God, that in these six items-richness, beauty, wisdom, strength, influence... So we see, practical world, that there are superlative, comparative. So when it comes to the topmost superlative degree, that is God.
Karandhara: They have a system which they call scientific integrity, which, roughly translated, means anything they can't perceive through their gross senses they can't accept as being a fact.
Prabhupada: This is... Anyone can... Any child can accept. What is that?
Karandhara: Well, they say, If there was a God, He would be perceivable to everyone, whether they believed in Him or not, He would be so obvious.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is available. This is common formula, that we see comparative study of these six opulences. When it is topmost, that is God.
Karandhara: But they say, "We cannot literally see that embodied in any one person."
Prabhupada: No, you can see, but you have no eyes to see. Suppose there are so many richest person. We have not seen, but they must be admitted. Just like in your country, Rockefeller. So it does not mean—one has not heard about Rockefeller—therefore it does not exist.
Karandhara: But Rockefeller is constantly having to prove and assert his power.
Prabhupada: No, prove to you, prove to me, but there are many who does not know. So that does not mean the Rockefeller is not existing. Your limited sense cannot approach. Therefore you cannot say that the thing is not existing. That is another rascaldom.
Karandhara: Well, on the other hand, they say what you can't say you...
Prabhupada: No, I can't say? Why I cannot say? I am saying, that this man is richer than this man. This man is richer than this man. You go on, go on, go on, studying. But if you cannot study, you cannot approach, that is your inefficiency. But there is existing actually. This man is greater than this man, this man is greater than... That's all. But who is that highest educated... That you do not see. That does not mean He is not existing. There must be, because the step is going on. How can you deny this?
Satsvarupa: Krsna says He's not manifest to the foolish.
Prabhupada: Yes. He is... You may not have seen something, but I have seen.
Karandhara: Well, they say that's the universal cop-out. The universal cop-out is to say that God does not reveal Himself to anyone except His devotees.
Prabhupada: That is natural. That is natural, if a big man, he reveals to his confidential secretaries, not to everyone.
Karandhara: Just like Guru Maharaji. He says you cannot understand that he is God unless you believe in him.
Prabhupada: Yes. That he'll say, "Everyone is God". But there is comparative God. He cannot say that he is as good God as Krsna.
Karandhara: Well, he says that. He says he is Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, why? You have not shown any lifting of Govardhana Hill.
Karandhara: He says you have to believe in him to see it.
Prabhupada: Why shall I believe? You are present, you show me.
Karandhara: He said if you believe in him...
Prabhupada: How can I believe? You show me; then I believe.
Karandhara: No, no. I bel... Well, they say the same thing about Krsna. They say, "Well, bring Krsna here and show me."
Prabhupada: No, Krsna is not present, but you say that you are present, so you show me. Krsna is not present. But you are present, you rascal. Show me. Then I shall believe you.
Karandhara: Well, I was just using that as a comparison to...
Prabhupada: No, why comparison? Then everyone is God. I want to see that you have got the opulence of God. You are the richest. You are smuggling, and you are richest? You rascal, you smuggle, and you are the richest? I kick on your face. (laughter) Now I challenge you. I shall kick on your face. You save yourself. You save if yourself.
Prabhupada: They applied that pea,
Satsvarupa: Pie in his face.
Prabhupada: Pie. That rascal could not save himself. And he's God.
Karandhara: But I was not using the comparison in that sense. The sense I was using it in... to a scientist, if you tell him "You have to believe in Krsna to realize He is God..."
Prabhupada: No, no, it is not belief, it is fact. It is not... that we protest.
Karandhara: But the disciples of Guru Maharaji say the same thing.
Karandhara: They say they've seen Guru Maharaji lifting Govardhana Hill, and they've seen his universal form.
Prabhupada: No, Govardhana Hill, when he lifted, everyone saw.
Karandhara: The scientists want to see it also to believe in Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, so show him. Show him. But prove him. Then everybody says that... I have got some disciple. I can say also, "I am God. My disciples have seen it. Believe me." Say that.
Karandhara: Well, that's why they won't believe in Krsna. They know that everyone can say that.
Yasomatinandana: It is accepted by the higher authorities.
Yasomatinandana: All the great sages and saints.
Prabhupada: Where are their higher authorities?
Prabhupada: No... Like that, they do not believe the sastra, just see.
Yasomatinandana: They believe in Alexander the Great and George Washington. Why don't they believe in Krsna?
Prabhupada: Yes, that's it. That is their foolishness. Nobody has seen George Washington.
Karandhara: No. believing in George Washington is not the same thing.
Prabhupada: Why not same thing?
Karandhara: George Washington is still a mundane figure, imperfect.
Prabhupada: Well, mundane figure, because you have got picture of George Washington, that's... We have got picture of Krsna. That's all. You think George Washington fact because you see the picture of, that's all. So we see daily the picture, the photo, the statue.
Karandhara: Well, they may accept Krsna as a person, but not as God.
Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna is person. Krsna is person. God is person. That we accept. God is person. God is not person.
Bali Mardana: The demons at Krsna's time could not even accept Him as God, what to speak of the demons now.
Karandhara: Therefore they say, What is the platform of objectivity in determining what's God?"
Prabhupada: This is definition. God has show in himself, exhibited Himself. He married sixteen thousand wives. Where is that person who can marry sixteen thousand wife and expand himself in sixteen thousand bodies? Where is that person?
Karandhara: They say no such person exists.
Prabhupada: Therefore He is there. He is God, the superexcellent.
Karandhara: But they say He never did that. That's impossible.
Prabhupada: He did it. There is a mention in the history.
Karandhara: George Washington didn't do anything which was out out out of the conception of belief.
Prabhupada: No, out of conception, he had no power to do it. He had no power to do it.
Hrdayananda: Who's conception?
Karandhara: Their conception.
Prabhupada: No, he had no power to do that, neither you have the power. That is the difference between you and God.
Yasomatinandana: In other words, "If God is like me, then I'll accept him as God, but if he's not like me, then he is not God."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is... Means...
Karandhara: No, they say, "If God is absolute, then he has to be obvious to everyone." Just like the sun comes up. The sun is obvious to everyone whether they believe in it or not.
Prabhupada: Yes, but who is in the room, closing the room, how he can see?
Prajapati: If they're asleep.
Prabhupada: If somebody's sleeping just like owl, he cannot see the sun. The sun is a fact, but the owl cannot see.
Karandhara: The owl can see if it looks at it.
Prabhupada: Yes, but... Therefore if you look, then you'll see.
Karandhara: Well, they think they are looking.
Prabhupada: No, they are not looking, not in the process.
Yasomatinandana: And God is also obvious to them in different manifestations.
Yasomatinandana: Birth, death, old age, disease, then trees, sun, the moon, the stars, the planets, these are also different manifestations of God.
Karandhara: No, there's no need to accept that's a God.
Yasomatinandana: Well, there are different manifestations of God. Just like we don't know the sun planet in it's full details. We just know...
Prabhupada: No, the sun, here it is not fully risen. But there is some place-sun is now full-fledged. But because you are here, you cannot say, "The sun cannot be full fledged." But that's a fact. Now in India, not India, somewhere else, the sun is now twelve o'clock, is it not?
Prabhupada: Yes, because time difference. But they are seeing, "Oh, sun is so full-fledged, so shining." You are not seeing. That is your inefficiency.
Karandhara: But they are able to experience that by their traveling.
Prabhupada: Yes, so if you travel, you will also experience. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Then you'll also experience. We don't say that you are unable to, but if you adopt the process you'll also know.
Prajapati: There's a large group today, Srila Prabhupada, called humanists and they have decided that this concept of God is not very useful. We can solve all the problems ourselves.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. These are rascals. You see, humanists, they are professing humanists and they are killing so many human beings daily. You see? These are all escapism. What is called? Escaping? They could not find any, I mean to say, solace and now humanity... What they can do? There are so many people suffering in the human society. What they can do? Suppose they are opening hospitals. Is that guarantee for a cure of disease or no death? Then what is the humanity. You cannot do anything. You may advertise yourself, " I have opened so many hospitals and beds." But what you can do? Is that guarantee that there that there will be no disease and everyone will be cured, nobody will die. Then what is the humanitarianism. You cannot do anything.
Karandhara: They say, "the best use of a bad bargain."
Prabhupada: That's all right, but that is not perfect idea that you want to make people happy, that is humanitism, or what is that? So can you make everyone happy? Is that guarantee?
Karandhara: Well, they say life means happiness and sadness.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Then what is your meaning of the humanitism? That is going on. Without your attempt that is going on.
Karandhara: They say you can't separate...
Prabhupada: No, that... Without your attempt, somebody has become rich, just on his birth. It is due to your help? A man is born immediately millionaire. So it is not your humanity work. He has got it. And similarly, a man is immediately turned into pauper. You cannot save him. So what is the meaning of your humanitism? You cannot do anything. Vivekananda is crying so many. Rascals, they are simply collecting money and eating themselves. Daridra-narayana-seva. And all the daridras are lying on the street. So these are only humbug. It has no meaning. You cannot do anything.
Prajapati: Actually they are so demoniac, Srila Prabhupada, they are advocating so many birth control, and so many things, and they say this...
Prabhupada: Simply rascaldom. Simply. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. They are going to the darkest region. Because they are killing, they will have to suffer. That they do not know. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. The blind man going forward will fall into the ditch. So this is their rascaldom.
Bali Mardan: Can a person who eats meat obtain a human birth? Or he must be put back into animal species, meat-eaters?
Prabhupada: No, he'll become animal, and he'll be killed.
Prabhupada: Yes. That animal will become man, and he'll kill him. He'll become animal. This is karma-bandhana. Yajnarthe karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9]. Yajnarthe, in the yajna, sometimes there is recommendation of animal sacrifice. Except that, you are bound up. You will have to be killed.
Yasomatinandana: The meat-eating also leads to many other sinful activities too, right?
Prabhupada: Yes, naturally. Meat-eating means he's demon, and demon means he'll act in so many ways, demonic way, and he'll be complicated, one after another.
Yasomatinandana: These humanists, Prabhupada, may try to make some...
Prabhupada: This is humanism. We are trying to save the human being from falling down. This is real humanism, if there is meaning of humanity. We are trying to save everyone, that "Don't fall down. Take full advantage of this human form of life and go back to home, back to Godhead. Be happy." This is humanity. Except this, all bogus, humbug. Except this, all bogus humbug.
Svarupa Damodara: They say that will be this perfect platform, but there's nothing like something perfect. They will explain that...
Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. They are trying to go to the perfect platform, but they have no idea what is perfect. That is their foolishness. Why they are making advancement? Advancement means there must be a goal where you will reach? But you have no goal. You do not know what is that goal, so what is the meaning of your advancement? Why you are wasting time blindly?
Karandhara: They want that perfection, but they want it with this body and its paraphernalia. They don't want to give this body up.
Prabhupada: Yes, this body can also be perfect. But you do not know how to make it.
Prajapati: Devotees are beginning more and more, Srila Prabhupada, under your instruction, to enter into politics. But the political leaders, they will claim, "Well you have no experience. How can you be qualified to...?"
Prabhupada: No, we have got experience. If there is a good man, he'll do, he'll act very nice. That we have got experience. Just like if a man is honest, you can trust him. This is our experience. So similarly, if the leaders be good according to this standard, then the whole human society will be happy. This is our propaganda. We are not after the post, but we have to disclose this rascaldom, that "All these rascals, animals, fools, they are taking the post of leader, and you are suffering repeatedly, but you have no sense that 'How we can be happy with this Nixon and company's leadership?' " So therefore we want to disclose the fact, that's all. We have no ambition. Just like we are brahmanas. We have nothing to do, but according to Vedic civilization, the brahmanas guides the ksatriyas how to rule. So our position is to reform the politicians. We are not going to compete with them, we have no business, neither we have time. But because people are suffering—we want everyone to be happy-therefore we want to reform these rascals. That is our goal. What we shall do taking part in politics? We have no business. But our real aim is how people will be happy. That is our real aim. So these rascals are leading, misleading. Therefore we want to check them. Is that all right? Is that all right?
Prajapati: Will this be possible, to reform these leaders, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Well, just like I came here alone to reform, to make God conscious, but gradually it is increasing. Although I had very little hope, but still now hopeful. So let us try for it. It is not that cent percent people, but if one, two men can understand, leading men, then the whole society will be benefited. It is not that mass people will be reformed. Just like we have received one letter from one Mr. Ford, Ford family, how much he is appreciating our movement. He has paid also. So it is our duty to do. But if one, two men comes out, comes forward, then it will be successful.
Yasomatinandana: That Ford boy is about to become a devotee, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes, he'll become devotee, just like George is becoming devotee. So if somebody comes in our touch and if he is sincere, he'll become devotee. Now this, I shall go this way?
Prajapati: So therefore, because we're not actually trying to gain the office, there need be no compromise in our preaching. Our preaching can be strictly on the platform...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Prajapati: ...It always has been.
Prabhupada: Our, this attempt is for preaching, not for the post. If we get the post it is all right. If we don't get, we are not disappointed. Just like even Krsna. He came to preach, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. And did everybody do so, sarva-dharman? So that it is so sublime... It is not possible. But if one or two men accept, then you are successful.
Prabhupada: Yes. The ideal should be there. Just like sometimes university maintains some classes, spending thousands of dollars every month, but there is no student. Does it mean the university shall close that department? No, it must go on. If anyone is fortunate, he'll take advantage. This is process.
Svarupa Damodara: Among those students, thousands of students, there are only very few who come out very good in society...
Prabhupada: Manusyanam sahasresu, that is already spoken. Krsna is speaking Bhagavad-gita; at the same time, He says,
"Out of many million of persons are trying to be perfect, and out of many millions of perfect, one can hardly understand Me." Then why He is speaking Bhagavad-gita? Actually the formula is impossible. Nobody is trying for becoming perfect, and there is no perfect; then who will understand? And still, He is speaking. Still Caitanya Mahaprabhu is coming. So our endeavor should be there. Our endeavor should be. If one man can take it up, then there will be immense good for the human so... Therefore I say this is the only humanitarian work. This is the only humanitarian... All others, bogus. They cannot become success. They are opening hospitals, but there are many millions of persons there without any hos..., and even if you give good medicine, good hospital, is that guarantee?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the difference. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. Therefore a little, if you act in Krsna consciousness, it will never be lost and it will save you from the greatest danger. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. Kartum avyayam. Susukham kartum avyayam [Bg. 9.2]. And whatever you have done, that is your permanent asset. It will never be lost. So nowadays the theologicians do not talk of God?
Prajapati: Not so much, no.
Prabhupada: That means they are failure.
Prabhupada: Just like nowadays they are not talking of going to the moon planet. There is no newspaper news.
Prabhupada: That is another bluff. Now the small plan they could not make successful. Now they are thinking of bigger plan. You see?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is another bluff. Another bluff. The smaller plan, they could not make successful. Now they're attempting bigger plan. Bara bara goragere rasatala, beta gora katha jala.(?) Betagor... There is a story that there was river. You know, horse can swim over. So big, big stalwart horses, they waved, mean, they washed away by the flood. So one lean and thin horse is coming, "Can you tell me how much water is there?" It is like bara bara goragere rasatala, beta gora katha jala. (?) So these rascals could not reach even the moon planet; now they are planning to the Mars planet. Just see. And another rascal will believe him. That, What you have done for the, which is the nearest planet?
Karandhara: Well, they say they've done everything they wanted to do with the moon. They say they've accomplished everything they wanted to on the moon.
Prabhupada: So you are not successful. That's a fact.
Karandhara: Basically what they did is they went there and they realized it's not worth anything, so there's no use going there.
Prabhupada: That means you bluff again, and you take some money. That's your business.
Prajapati: The public interest is flagging, and they're not interested in the moon anymore. They want something more exciting. So to get the...
Prabhupada: Yes. So that is bluffing. That is bluffing. The scientists want to be engaged and get money from the government, so they must go on bluffing. Otherwise how they'll get money?
Svarupa Damodara: The seminar was, the title was "The Atmosphere of Mars." The atmosphere in the Mars they are studying now very carefully.
Prabhupada: So the same "carbon dioxide" and big, big words, jugglery of words, that's all.
Prabhupada: That, they are hopeful of doing everything but never successful, never. That they'll never become. Unless they are hopeful, how... Just like a physician. The man is going to die, still, he's thinking, "Yes, I am hopeful." I have seen in Allahabad high-court. One man was condemned to death, and his lawyer solacing him. "Don't be sorry. I'll appeal, I'll appeal. I'll get you out." You see? This is their business.
Yasomatinandana: They do want something more exciting, Prabhupada, but they don't know they want to go to the spiritual sky.
Prabhupada: They do not know what is spiritual. They do not know what is this sky even, what to speak of spiritual sky.
Karandhara: Prabhupada, many theologians will say privately that they believe in God or they want to believe in God but they cannot speak of God to the common people because the people are so agitated, they don't want to hear of God.
Prabhupada: No, we are speaking. We are speaking to the common man. We do not hesitate. We say, "Here is Krsna, God."
Prajapati: The most active or the most powerful of the theologians, they are very, very conservative Christian, and they say, though, that if they believe in Jesus, they cannot hear of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Why? If they are actually theologians, why they should not hear? Jesus Christ says that he's the son of God. But why not of the father. And what is this?
Karandhara: They make reference to one... He supposedly said that he was the only way, that no man could come to God the father except through Jesus.
Prabhupada: Yes, so we accept the only way. Take Bible, and we shall prove there is Krsna. Take Bible, yes.
Prajapati: But they will quote a reference in the Bible that says, "No other book."
Prabhupada: No, no, no, don't accept no other book. Take Bible, and we shall prove there is Krsna.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, he also said, Prabhupada, that "God, the heavenly father, who is greater than me, He has sent me here."
Prabhupada: Yes, there is Bible. Yes. Here is. Practically nowadays there is no Christian. All heathens. Yes. Because they are... Therefore we are purchasing so many churches. And there are so many for sale. Nobody is going to. In London I have seen. Hundreds of churches are... some neighbor. Nobody goes. Only the churchtaker and the so-called one or two neighboring old women, that's all. So it is gone. Christian religion is now gone.
Yasomatinandana: Also, Prabhupada, Christ never said himself that he's dying for their sins. But this is the later disciples of Christ, they claim that Christ has died for their sins.
Prabhupada: Accha? This is the fact?
Prajapati: That's fact, yes.
Prabhupada: Just see how they are. They're saying so many things.
Bali Mardana: Cheaters. In Germany since they lost the war everyone has become atheists. In Germany, because they lost the war, they all became atheists.
Yasomatinandana: It's better sometimes to approach a person with no religion, Prabhupada, than to approach a Christian.
Yasomatinandana: These Christians are very blasphemous.
Prajapati: Very blasphemous.
Karandhara: Party spirit.
Prabhupada: No no, what is their value? When they are sanctioning abortion, homosex, now they are finished. They have no value.
Karandhara: Well, most or a greater proportion of the traditional Christians condemn homosex and abortion. A good quantity of the traditional Christians, they condemn abortion and homosex.
Prabhupada: Yes, they are good, but mostly, as you were telling me that, that Pope is disgusted... Yes. Nobody cares for the Bible or the Pope. That is everywhere, not only Christian. Actually there is no religion at the present moment. All animals. We don't blame only the Christians. The Hindus, Muslim, everyone. They have lost all religion.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually Prabhupada, I read in the Time Magazine that Indira Gandhi, she said to one reporter her birth control program has not become successful because in Kerala there are a lot of Catholics who are opposing this kind of process. In other words the Hindus are approving of it but the Catholics are rejecting it, it looks like, to some extent. She says that because the Catholics in Kerala, they are opposing the birth control program so she has got trouble like that. She is completely atheistic.
Prabhupada: Unless she become atheist how you can stay in that post? She must be atheist. Or she may not be atheist, but for political reasons she must become atheist. Otherwise she cannot maintain her post. All these politicians, they are simply duplicity. Actually they are something else, but in political post they must show themselves as something else. This is politics.
Svarupa Damodara: When Nehru said that all factories, chemical factories and these iron factories are our temples, these are our temples.
Yasomatinandana: Nehru was a big atheist too, he openly declared.
Prabhupada: Yes, he was first-class atheist. Now he has become a dog. Yes, some astrologer has said. He has become a dog in Sweden. A man has got two dogs. Out of the two he is one.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is quite believable.
Yasomatinandana: Yes Prabhupada, it's a fact.
Yasomatinandana: It's fortunate to become a dog.
Prabhupada: Ha? The astrologers, they sometimes approached. Ah, what is the position of this man, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Gandhi? And they say something. So he has said about Nehru like this. Astrologer, he was hesitating, then he said. It was spoken by one very respectable person, Sridhara Maharaja.
Prabhupada: My godbrother.
Prabhupada: No, no. Suppose if he has said, how can you disbelieve it? How can you disbelieve it? That is... Because in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. "After giving up this body, one has to accept another body." So he has accepted another body but nobody can tell what body he has accepted. If the astrologer says, you have to accept it. You cannot say, "No, he has not accepted dog body." You cannot give any proof. So anyone can say anything. But it is a fact that he has accepted another body.
Prabhupada: That is a fact. That you cannot deny because it is said by Krsna, tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. That you cannot deny. He has accepted another body. What kind of body he has accepted... If you want to suggest, that is also given in the Bhagavad-gita,
urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha
madhye tisthanti rajasah
adho gacchanti tamasah
He was in tamasic, so he has gone down to the animal kingdom. That's a fact in the Bhagavad-gita. He has gone to the animal kingdom. Now he may be tiger or dog. That is a different thing. But he has gone to the animal kingdom. That is the verdict of Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: That's a fact.
Yasomatinandana: He claimed himself to be brahmana. And he was eating meat.
Prabhupada: No. He never claimed.
Yasomatinandana: He never claimed.
Prabhupada: He never claimed. He said, "You call me brahmana. That's your... but I, I do not follow anything." He never said that.
Prabhupada: Yes. So he'll get birth as human being.
Svarupa Damodara: Srila Prabhupada, are these astrologers, ah, are, can we believe in them, what they say? Called pseudo-science.
Prabhupada: No. Astrology is a science. [break] ...that I shall go to the foreign countries and throughout the whole world I will establish so many temples, so many things... this...
Prabhupada: No, no. That is calculation, calculation. This astrologer, this astrologer was a very big astrologer and when I was in service, Dr. Bose's laboratory, so Dr. Bose was treating one patient. He was vomiting blood. So he was treating as tuberculosis. Then he could not cure him after giving all medicine. Then he asked the astrologer, this astrologer who made my horoscope, "What is the matter? Panditji, can you tell?" So he calculated. He said, "You are making wrong treatment. He has got some sore in the throat. It is not heart." And he treated, he was cured.
Yasomatinandana: Vedic science is so perfect.
Prabhupada: Yes. He knew it.
Yasomatinandana: Jagadishacandra Bose?
Prabhupada: No, he's another Bose. There is...
Prabhupada: Yes. That is, (coughs) that is Sir Jagadishacandra Bose. Sir J.C. Bose...
Prabhupada: ...who discovered, he discovered this wireless telegraph.
Yasomatinandana: Wasn't that your father's friend?
Prabhupada: No. He, this, he's Dr. Karttikacandra Bose.
Devotee: Oh, I see.
Prabhupada: There is a road, K.C. Bose, Dr. Karttikacandra Bose Street. He was my father's friend.
Devotee: Did you work for Jagadishacandra Bose too?
Prabhupada: No, no. I worked for Dr. Dr. K.C. Bose, under whose name the street is going on, Dr. Karttikacandra Bose. He's also famous man, this Bose. He was the, I mean to say, the starter of this Bengal Chemical Company.
Yasomatinandana: Oh yes, they are a big company.
Prabhupada: Yes. Dr. Bose's labora... Practically chemical industry was...
Svarupa Damodara: I think it was Acarya Prafullacandra Raya, Srila Prabhupada, that starting of chemical industry in the Bengali...?
Prabhupada: Acarya Prafullacandra Raya was one of the director and this K.C. Bose was a managing director. Actually the life was given by Dr. Karttikacandra Bose to Bengal Chemical. But because Prafullacandra Raya was a famous chemist and he was attached to it, therefore his name become famous.
Yasomatinandana: Also you mentioned Mullik family in Calcutta to be your grandparents or someone?
Yasomatinandana: That is also mentioned in the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: Yes. One of the members was our relative. So we are staying with them, these Mulliks. He had no sons. So we were staying, some relatives. Therefore I was born in that family, although they are our distant relations. But when I was, my father was staying there, I was born. These Mulliks they are also De. Their original title is De. This Mullik is their title.
Yasomatinandana: For being in the Mohammedan service?
Prabhupada: Yes, not service. Sometimes the Mohammedans used to give... Just like the British government used to give titles, "Sir", like that. Mullik, Mullik comes from the word "mallika".
Svarupa Damodara: ...family names, we said two family names, like Raya Chaudhuri, like Datta Gupta. How this happened?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like the Mulliks they're De Mullik. The original title is De but they got the title Mullik. Similarly, there is another family. They are called Sil Mullik. The original title is Sil but they got the title. As De we belong to the same family. But because, somehow or other, they got this title, so they... It is not different but... [break]
Yasomatinandana: ...Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika in which you, all the original svarupa of all the devotees are given?
Yasomatinandana: So most of the Lord Caitanya's associates were gopis from the...
Yasomatinandana: Lord Krsna's...
Prabhupada: Some of them gopis, some of them cowherd boys, some of them father, mother, like that.
Svarupa Damodara: In Bengal, Srila Prabhupada, the brahmana caste family like Mukherjees, then Bannerjees, then,... I had a roommate when I was in Calcutta, his was Mukherjee. So he was telling me one day that we are much more superior brahmanas than other like Chaudhuris and Sanyals.
Prabhupada: But where is your superiority?
Prabhupada: That's all right. But what is your superiority. You're a servant now. You're sudra. You're not even a brahmana. Superiority by simply explanation will not do. You must be (indistinct). Guna, karma, superiority means guna, karma. You must have the quality and you must work in that quality. You're a scientist, but after a few generation, a foolish boy in your family say, "We belong to the scientist's family." So what is the use of saying like that? You must become scientist. When you are a scientist then you are superior not by simply... This has killed the Indian, I mean Vedic culture when they began to claim superiority simply by birth without any qualification. That killed the whole civilization.
Prabhupada: But tradition, what is that tradition? Tradition is here, in the proof. Catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. The reference is given to the quality, guna, and karma, and action. How you can simply say that because I'm born in such and such family, therefore I have also the same thing. Because my father was high-court judge, therefore I am high-court judge. Is that very good logic? How you became superior? You have to prove your superiority by your qualification and actual work. This is very nice. The world is accepting like that. Somebody's coming to you to accept some scientific instruction. He accepts you're superior in scientific knowledge, not for your birth, but for your quality and work. That is fact. So you first of all come to the platform of the quality and work, then you claim superior.
Yasomatinandana: Yes. That is foolishness.
Prabhupada: And that foolishness has killed the whole Vedic civilization.
Yasomatinandana: I thought the same way before I became a disciple of Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Here is a... He comes from a very respectable brahmana family, but he knows...
Yasomatinandana: Well I realized afterwards that I was lower than a sudra, because actually it was my duty and I rejected it.
Prabhupada: Yes. Why we are accepting in Europe and America all them brahmana? They are not born in brahmana family. But why we are giving them sacred thread? Only for quality and work. That is said in the sastra. Narada Muni says that the quality and the symptoms is the real platform of judging who is brahmana, who is sudra. Narada said and Sridhara Svami has commented upon him that birth is immaterial. Quality and work is (indistinct). Otherwise how Caitanya Mahaprabhu can accept Haridasa Thakura as namacarya, the authority of the Holy Name? He was born in a Mohammedan family. And this Sanatana Gosvami, they are rejected from brahmana family because they're servants of Nawab Hussain Shah and they adopted Muslim way of life. Their name was also changed-Dabira Khasa, Sakara Mallika, this Mallika (laughs), Sakara Mallika. But although they're born in brahmana family, but they're rejected from the brahmana family because they accepted service. Formerly the brahmanas were so strict. Brahmana cannot accept any service. Then he becomes sudra. To accept service is the business of the sudra. And it is warned in the sastra. If a brahmana becomes economically poor, he may act as a ksatriya, as a vaisya, not as a sudra. Then it will be quite degradation. So now this, what is this brahmana, he's in service?
Svarupa Damodara: I think he's a physicist now. I think he came here about one year before I came here.
Prabhupada: So if he's in service, then he's sudra.
Yasomatinandana: Yes, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: He's sudra, paricaryatmakam karma sudra-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. As soon as one accepts service of a master, immediately sudra.
Yasomatinandana: True brahmanas even didn't care for kings.
Yasomatinandana: They didn't care for the honor from king or they didn't, they would...
Prabhupada: They would give advice to the kings but never accept the post of a king.
Prabhupada: Yes. There was a regular advisory committee, privy council, composed of high learned brahmanas and saintly persons.
Svarupa Damodara: They are jealous of the other people who are coming up higher than them. So, seeing them, they are quite jealous.
Prabhupada: They must be jealous because if simply by taking birth in a brahmana family he can become brahmana and if somebody protests then he, he becomes jealous... (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Dr. Wolfe: ...quite an invalid today.
Prabhupada: (indistinct) I do not...
Passerby: ...arthritic pain and I was bad in my leg today and I thought better not to go.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Dr. Wolfe: Thank you.
Yasomatinandana: It's so nice to be with you in the morning. The whole day is very nice.
Devotees: Jaya, Srila Prabhupada. [break]
Prabhupada: ...daiva-varnasrama. My Guru Maharaja wanted this that there be regular varnasrama, qualified. It is not the monopoly of India that brahmanas are born there. No. No, you are all brahmanas. Otherwise how can I allow you to worship Deity? Hmm. What is that?
Satsvarupa: If I go to some city and hold a program and advertise but only, say, four or five people come and yet they're interested, very interested-should that be considered successful or unsuccessful?
Prabhupada: It is successful. If one man comes to hear, that is successful. But we have to see that, after spending so much money...
Prabhupada: ...better to call a small meeting of the learned scholars and talk with them about our philosophy because even if you advertise common man is not interested. They think, "Oh, what is this?" Even the so-called higher circles. The best thing is to collect some... Just like ordinary meeting it is done. That is better. Why should you spend unnecessarily on advertising. (end)
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