Prabhupada: ...from your audience?

Hrdayananda: Well, one of the main things is that they say, "Yes, Krsna consciousness may be very nice, but many other things are also very nice, and everyone says that 'I am right.' "

Prabhupada: No, that's all right. Nice... Suppose if there is a nice staircase.

Hrdayananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: So that one, two, three, four, five, six, seven stairs. Still, one who has gone to the topmost nice stair, he has to be considered the topmost.

Hrdayananda: But then...

Prabhupada: Everything may be nice. Because Krsna says: mama vartmanuvartante manusyah partha sarvasah: "Everyone is trying to approach Me, but one who has approached two steps, he cannot say that he's equal to the person who has approached hundred steps."

Hrdayananda: Well, then they will say that everyone... The Christians would say that they're on the top step, and the Buddhists say they're on the top step.

Prabhupada: No, they may say, but if Krsna is God, what He says, that we'll have to accept, what Krsna says. Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior than Me." That you have to accept. Everyone will say, "I am very good." But is that the fact, that everyone is very good? There is comparative, superlative degrees. Just like shopkeepers, they say, "All my goods are good." They are competition. One has to judge. That comparative study... What the highest Buddha philosophy? Ahimsa. Ahimsa, nonviolence. That is our preliminary study. Amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir arjavam [Bg. 13.8]. There are many other things after ahimsa. They do not know this.

Hrdayananda: There's another argument.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hrdayananda: Another argument.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: Many times, the professors, they say that "If God, if god were actually all, all-good and all-perfect, then when He created us, we would also be all-good..."

Prabhupada: Yes. But you are contaminated. You are all-good. That's a fact. Because you are part and parcel of God, you cannot be bad. But you are contaminated.

Hrdayananda: Well, they say that "Even, even if I have the potential... Even to say that I ha..."

Prabhupada: You have got the potential. That's it.

Hrdayananda: But if I say that... If I, I'm originally in the spiritual world, but even the potential to fall down is an imperfection in the creation.

Prabhupada: No, potential does not fall down. Just like a child has got the potency to pass the M.A. examination. So he has to be educated. If you don't educate him, he'll remain a foolish child. So we are educating to develop that potentiality.

Hrdayananda: They say, "God should have, God should have created us so that we..."

Prabhupada: Why you should dictate God? God has created perfectly. He has given you independence. You fall down. It is your fault. God has made you perfect, given you independence. But if you misuse your independence, you fall down. Just like government gives everyone opportunity. Why do you become criminal and go to the jail? That is your fault.

Hrdayananda: They say that God should have created us so that we...

Hrdayananda: He's imperfect.

Prabhupada: He's imperfect. Our movement is perfect. But he becomes imperfect by his misuse of independence. He thinks that "This is nice," and goes to hell. What can be done? That independence is there. That is perfectness.

Hrdayananda: So in other words, these, uh, the people that argue like that, they, they actually are lazy. They don't want to surrender to God. Then they blame God.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because they have become imperfect, therefore they are blaming God. "God is good;" they forget this. That is their imperfectness. One side, they say, "God is good." Still, they're blaming God. What is this nonsense? If He's God, God is good, how can you blame Him? God is good; in all circumstances, He's good. That is the meaning of good. Good does not mean that one time you are good and next time you are bad.

Karandhara: Just like the criminals blame the government for being in the prison house.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, that is natural. Yes. Surasu-saksimat. Surasu-saksimat. In the liquor shop so there was some trouble. So he went to court. He went to court. So the court asked him, "Where is your witness?" So he brought one witness, drunkard. You see? Surasu-saksimat. So that is maya, aham mameti [SB 5.5.8], misusing power and blaming God, "Why God...?" God has made everything. Just like here. It is made not to move. Stay. But we are better than this. Is it not? It cannot move. So God has made this also. But because we can move, we are better than this. And if, if, if they say that "God, why he has made me to commit mistake?" This rascal does not understand that that is freedom. You, why don't you take the right one? God says, "This is right." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Why don't you take it? And still, how you can say God is bad? What is the argument?

Umapati: Well, the argument is that if God is so all-powerful, why does He even let me fall?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Umapati: If God is so powerful, why does He let me fall. Why doesn't He save me, save me from my own foolishness. Why doesn't He...?

Prabhupada: Yes, He's saving you, but you don't carry His order.

Umapati: Yes, but it's not recognized.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like I say, "Chant sixteen rounds." If you do not do it. What can I do? That is your fault.

Satsvarupa: If God were to force us, there'd be no love.

Prabhupada: Eh? No, no. Force is not good. Force is there. Force is there. The maya is another force.

Prajapati: There's a large segment of the population today who say, "We only speak about God in terms of our own relationships with each other." So one group, they say, "This is all male chauvinism, to say God is a male. Actually, we are saying now the women should be elevated so God is woman for us." They say like that.

Prabhupada: God... But uh... Well, that's all right. God is male and female both. God, our God, sometimes He takes the form of female, Mohini-murti. Mohini-murti. But comparatively studying, God is purusa, male.

Umapati: He's always a potency.

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. He is potent.

Umapati: He's always the supreme potency.

Prabhupada: He is potential. That means you manufacture God. Sometimes you manufacture God as male, sometimes you manufacture God is female. Is it not? Is it not your theory? As you say, "Now we accept female as God," that means you manufacture God. Is it not?

Prajapati: Yes.

Prabhupada: And what you manufacture, is that God?

Prajapati: They see...

Prabhupada: What do you manufacture? You are imperfect. So whatever you manufacture, that is imperfect. How it can be God?

Prajapati: Well, God is simply the way we view each other, relationship with each other, as the...

Prabhupada: Well, that is your manufacture. Why do you say like that? Each other's relationship? The relationship already there. What is to make new there? The already... God is great, and we are small. The relationship is already there. So how you can make another relationship? God is great. Is it not? God is great. Is it not?

Prajapati: Yes.

Prabhupada: And then what you are? You are small.

Prajapati: Yes.

Prabhupada: So relationship already there. So what relationship you are creating again? It is already there. God is great; you are small. The relationship is already there. He's Creator. You are the created. He's the predominator. You are the predominated. He's the master. You are the servant. This is already there. And what new thing you can create? This is already there. He's master. And He's... Why you are covering? Because God has given this season. So you are dependent. You have to cover. You cannot make it immediately sunshining summer season. That is not within your power. Therefore He's great. You are small. This relationship is already there. Therefore He's master, you are servant. That is the real eternal relationship. What new relationship you can create. It is not possi... It is not possible. He's creator. Are you creator? Can you create anything? Then how you can be master? You are always servant. So relationship is already there. How you can change it? That is speculation.

Karandhara: Actually, that philosophy is just atheism.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: That philosophy is atheism.

Prabhupada: Atheism, yes. Atheism.

Karandhara: They're not talking about God at all. They're just talking about something they're searching for, sense gratification.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Yes. "Now we shall create female as God." What power you have got? God is already God. You cannot create God, a female, or dog. You can create anything, as you..., by mental speculation, but that is not a fact.

Umapati: They say, "Man was made in the image of God," and now women are saying...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Umapati: They say, "Man was made in the image of God," and now women are saying, "Women are made in the image of God. Therefore God is female." And that is their logic.

Prabhupada: No, no, man or woman, you cannot create God. That is the first proposal. God is not your creation. You are creation of God. You cannot say, "God should be like this. God should be like that." That is nonsense. God is not under your dictation. You are under the dictation of God. That is God. If you manufacture, if you dictate, then how He is God? He's your dog. Just like a dog. He dictates. He abides by your order. He's not God. He's dog. What is the scientist says? Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: The scientist says that God didn't... One of the astronomers said that "If I were present at the time of creation..."

Prabhupada: Ah, you were present. Therefore you are a rascal. You were not allowed to (be) present. Therefore God is great. You are a rascal. God did not allow you to be present there. Now you are lamenting. Therefore God is great.

Hrdayananda: Jaya. Because God doesn't lament. He laments.

Prabhupada: Yes. God did not allow you. Therefore you are under control of God. So you are foolish rascal. God did not allow you. Therefore God is great.

Hrdayananda: Jaya.

Prajapati: One very prominent philosopher, theologian, today named Martin Buber, he says we cannot talk about God as "He", describing so many attributes to Him as something other. He is the eternal...

Prabhupada: That, that we accept, that atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih: [Brs. 1.2.234] We cannot speculate about God with our imperfect senses. But that does not mean we should not know god. We cannot speculate, but there is process of knowing God. That is from God. When He says, "I am like this," that's all. You have to accept that. You cannot speculate. You cannot create. Just like a big man, a big master, nobody knows how many millions of dollars he has got. They are speculating. His servants are speculating, "Master may have so many millions. Master may have so many..." But that is all imperfect. When the master says, "I have got so much, so many millions," that is perfect. All other speculation, they're all imperfect. So our Krsna consciousness movement, we are not speculating. We are accepting God the authority, and He's speaking about Himself. We are accepting. That is our position. Krsna. Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat: [Bg. 7.7] "There is no more superior authority than Me." We accept it. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah: "You always think of Me. Become my devotee." We become... This is Krsna consciousness. We are imperfect, but we accept the perfect. Therefore we are perfect. We are imperfect. We don't say that we are God, or perfect. We are imperfect. But we accept the perfect version of the perfect. Therefore we are perfect.

Hrdayananda: Well, then again they would say that many people say that they have perfect...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hrdayananda: Many, many different people say that they have the perfect information about God.

Prabhupada: If they have, that's all right. But it should be tested whether they have got.

Hrdayananda: Tested?

Prabhupada: Yes. Whether you have got perfect information or I have got perfect information, that is to be tested. I have no objection if somebody says that "I have got perfection, perfect information," but I'll have to see whether you have got. But I have no objection if you say. That is all right. Because if I have got perfect information, you may also have. There is no objection. But I have to test whether. Anybody can say, "I have passed M.A. examination." But I have to test whether he's actually M.A...

Hrdayananda: So who shall decide what the criteria is, to test.

Prabhupada: God will decide. The God's book is there, Bhagavad-gita. Just like two lawyers fighting. Who will decide? The lawbook will decide.

Umapati: How will the judgement be rendered?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Umapati: How will the judgement be rendered?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Umapati: They would ask.

Prabhupada: Judgement will be rendered by lawbook.

Hrdayananda: They say they have their own lawbook.

Prabhupada: No, that is kick on their face. (laughter) You are rascals. As soon as he says, "I have got my law books," he's a rascal. He's a rascal. Kick on his face with boot.

Karandhara: In the West, they don't accept the Bhagavad-gita as anything but a piece of mythology or...

Prabhupada: Then he has to accept something else. He has to accept something. He may accept Bible. They may not accept Bhagavad-gita. They must accept Bible. But you have to, then you have to lead your life according to the version of the Bible. The version of the Bible is that "Thou shalt not kill." You are killing. Therefore you are not, not followers of Bible. You are rascal.

Karandhara: Well, their process is to discredit all scriptures so that they don't have to follow anything.

Prabhupada: Then you are discredited. Who follows your version? If you discredit others' version, who follows your version? Who are you? If you don't accept other authority, and who is going to accept your authority? Why shall I? You cannot become authority, that "I don't accept any authority." I have to follow that? Then you become authority.

Sudama: They also argue, though, that...

Prabhupada: No, first of all, understand. If he says that "I don't accept any authority," that means he becomes authority. I have to follow him.

Hrdayananda: Then they say it's a, it's just like a stand-off then.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Hrdayananda: That... Then they say "Well, it's a stand-off, that I say I'm right and that you say you are right. So it cannot be..."

Prabhupada: But that, therefore there is confusion. The world position is like that. Now it is confusion. Everything is...

Bali Mardana: Conflict.

Prabhupada: ...in confusion. That is chaotic condition. Every citizen says, "I don't accept government law. I have got my own law." It is confusion.

Bali Mardana: Where is the result of your...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Bali Mardana: We can say, "Where is the result of your belief?"

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bali Mardana: Confusion.

Prabhupada: Confusion is not... Chaotic condition, confusion is not proper stage. That is a state of suffering. That is the position at the present moment. Otherwise, why they are fighting, nation to nation, man to man, group to group, community to community, diplomat to dip...? They're simply fighting like cats and dogs. This is not perfect society. Simply ca... They can say dogs. They can simply make barking, "Whowf! Whowf! Whowf! Whowf!" That is not perfect society. Human society should be sober. That is Vedic civilization.

Svarupa Damodara: But one should follow the standard morality. When that standard set is lacking or it fails to understand, then people try to speculate their own thing.

Prabhupada: Yes. No. Nobody's following any standard. Just like these Western people, mostly Christians. It is clearly stated in the Bible, "Thou shalt not kill." They're simply killing. Their only business is killing.

Bali Mardana: And divorce.

Prabhupada: And divorce.

Bali Mardana: It says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

Prabhupada: So these rascals, how do they claim Christian? Eh? What do you think? They're not even category, in the category of dogs, cats, and they're claiming that "We are follower of Lord Jesus Christ."

Sudama: But they also argue, Prabhupada, that that law, "Thou shalt not kill," "I am not killing. The others are killing. But I am not."

Prabhupada: Just see. Is that very good argument? "I am not killing."

Svarupa Damodara: But he's eating.

Prabhupada: "I am not killing the snake. My stick is killing." Is that very good argument? (laughter) These rascals, all these rascals, they avoid. "I am not killing. I am not responsible. My, my, this stick has killed." Just see. If you go to the court: "Sir, I have not killed, my stick has killed." Just see how rascal they are.

Prof. Wolfe: It is a question whether this "Thou shalt not kill" does not also include all our animal brothers and sisters.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Prof. Wolfe: I think it should also include that. Because "Thou shalt not kill" is just not kill creatures, not only men. But apart from that, they do not even follow it where men come in. They kill. They do.

Prabhupada: I do not follow.

Sudama: He's saying...

Hrdayananda: He's agreeing.

Sudama: He's agreeing that "Thou shalt not kill" should also include all animals.

Prof. Wolfe: It should.

Prabhupada: Yes, "Thou shalt not kill" means everything.

Karandhara: They say that it does not include animals.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: They say, "That does not include animals."

Prabhupada: Why? Why they say?

Karandhara: The animals have no soul.

Prabhupada: Why they say? This is rascaldom. Therefore they are rascals. They do not know.

Sudama: But they say, "We are more superior than the animals. So therefore the animal's business is just to give us food."

Prabhupada: That, then, then, the superior nation can kill inferior nation. Why you have made the United Nations?

Karandhara: It just encourage animalism, animal dominance.

Prabhupada: Animalism. That is... Then it becomes "Might is right," not "Right is might."

Umapati: In the Bible, Prabhupada, there is a statement that many people follow, saying that, where Jehovah says, "Man shall have dominion over the animals, over the fishes and..."

Prabhupada: That is already there. But that does not mean man should kill them.

Prof. Wolfe: And Jesus did not reverse it.

Hrdayananda: Just like a man has dominion over his children.

Prabhupada: Yes. A father-mother has dominion over the children. Does it mean that he shall kill him?

Umapati: And eat them?

Prabhupada: Yes. This is all rascals.

Hrdayananda: Then they will argue that we are, we are killing plants and grains, things like that.

Prabhupada: We are not killing anything. We are not killing anything. We devotees, we don't kill anything. Do you know that, or not? We don't kill anything.

Hrdayananda: They'll say we eat vegetables, they will say.

Prabhupada: No vegetables, we don't kill. We don't kill.

Umapati: Well, vegetables are living entities also?

Prabhupada: Yes, but we don't kill them. We take their fruits and flowers. That does not mean it is killed. And that also we take it for Krsna. Patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26]. So if there is any responsibility, that is Krsna's responsibility. I am not, I am not responsible.

Hrdayananda: Ah, I see.

Karandhara: Fruits, vegetables and grains can be harvested without killing the plant.

Prabhupada: Eh? No, yes, it is not killing. Grains, after grains are ripe, the tree automatically dies.

Prof. Wolfe: Srila Prabhupada, isn't it so that we do not kill voluntarily. Because involuntarily, of course, we kill with every moment? We kill all the bacteria and we kill all the microbes and...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Prof. Wolfe: And we cannot help doing that.

Prabhupada: Therefore you have to become servant of Krsna; you are not responsible. Just like government servant, police, and military kills, but he's not responsible. He's not responsible. Their business is killing, soldiers, but they are rewarded: "Oh, thank you very much. Take this title." Just Arjuna, just like Arjuna killed on the order of Krsna, and Krsna gave him cert..., bhakto 'si priyo 'si me: [Bg. 4.3] "You are My very dear friend. You are my devotee." So we have to act by the order of the Supreme. Then we are not responsible. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna...

Umapati: [break] ...I have, I have been reading some of the writings of Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and I have come to an understanding from what I have read that there are, there is, there is a thing called tendency and, and... Well, in other words, the Vedas will teach a man if he is incapable of not killing, of, incapable of not killing, if he's addicted to meat-eating, that there are rules whereby he can eat meat and thereby, under prescribed rules found in the Vedas. And thereby, his pious activity, he can raise to a higher level of understanding. And then there are rules that says, "Thou shalt not eat meat," and therefore one is eligible and must follow those restrictions.

Prabhupada: Yes. In the beginning...

Umapati: In the beginning.

Prabhupada: Just like loke vyavayamisa-madya-seva nitya hi jantoh. There is tendency for eating meat. Therefore Vedas says that "You can eat meat, but..." Not only Vedas, in other scriptures also. The Jews also say. The Mohammedans also say that you can kill in the synagogue or in the, what is called, mosque, one animal. But not slaughterhouse. No religion prescribes that you open slaughterhouse. No.

Prajapati: It's always done under...

Prabhupada: That is restricted. Why it is advised to kill in the synagogue? Why not publicly? That means it is not wanted, but if you go on killing in the mosque, some day you may come to your sense, that you are a rascal; you are becoming responsible. But if you open slaughterhouse, that sense will never come.

Hrdayananda: And not to kill the cow?

Prabhupada: Especially not to kill cow. That animal is very, very important to the human society. According to the Vedic system, those who are meat-eaters, they are recommended to kill some goat or some other animal. Not cow.

Svarupa Damodara: Now, there's sometimes, Srila Prabhupada, when these animals are sacrificed according to sastric injunctions.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: I think they are benefited.

Prabhupada: Yes, they are benefited.

Karandhara: Also the animal also has the chance to come back in it's next life and kill the person that killed the animal.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: So it's a great risk.

Prabhupada: Yes. Mam sah. Mam, mam means "me." Sah means "he". "He eats me." That is meat.

Bali Mardana: In Nepal, they kill thousands of black goats and buffaloes.

Prabhupada: Yes. But never they kill cows.

Bali Mardana: No.

Prabhupada: Yes. We shall go this way? [break]

Prajapati: They had a great difficulty. Because of poor fund of knowledge in the sastras, they formed doctrines, so many doctrines, where groups of men got together and said. "This is what we believe." And they have so many doctrines. Many people killed, fighting over these doctrines, and even the intelligent people will simply, instead of trying to find out about God, simply try to clarify these doctrines more and more.

Prabhupada: As soon as you say there are so many doctrines, that means that all of them are rascals. All of them are rascals. Otherwise, why there should be so many doctrines.

Umapati: There's only one doctrine.

Bali Mardana: God is one.

Prabhupada: Yes, God is one. God is good. That is only one doctrine. And why there should be different doctrines? That means those who have created different doctrines means they're all rascals.

Karandhara: Because they deviated from the central point and became preoccupied with their own speculation.

Prabhupada: That's all. That, that is not the process. First of all you have to know that God is unlimited. You are limited. How can you approach Him with your doctrine? Because you are limited, your ideas, your thinking, is limited. So how you can approach the unlimited? That is foolishness.

Karandhara: These doctrines are simply veiled atheism.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: Rationalized atheism.

Prabhupada: They are called kutarki. Kutarki. "Bad logicians. Bad logicians." Kutarki.

Prajapati: So much of it is based on politics, also, Prabhupada. They...

Prabhupada: Yes, They, they, they're everything, motivated. So therefore they're imperfect. I have got... Just like this United Nations. They have gone there for becoming united, but they remain disunited forever. Just see. All the best men go there for becoming united, but forever they will remain disunited. Just see the practical. Because they're all imperfect, rascals, motivated. How they can be united? They cannot be united. Simply spoiling their time and public money. That's all. Simply spoiling. But public have no eyes to see them. They're also rascal. Therefore my Guru Maharaja used to say that the whole society's now combination of cheaters and cheated. That's all. The cheated want cheaters, and cheaters take the opportunity of the cheated. And that is the combination of the present day society. Somebody, they want to be cheated. And there are some cheaters. So the whole society is combination of cheater and cheated.

Prof. Wolfe: That is why nobody wants to change anything.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Prof. Wolfe: No real reform.

Prabhupada: No.

Prof. Wolfe: Because they all want to go on cheating.

Prabhupada: Yes. You see? That is the qualification of conditioned soul: To become a cheater, and to become cheated. This is the condition. To become a cheater is one of the conditions of material life. The four defects: He must commit mistake, he must be illusioned, and he must cheat, and his senses are imperfect. These are the four qualifications of the materialistic person.

Svarupa Damodara: That is also one of the qualities of bondage?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: Bondage?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because they are... Because they are, they have been bound up by the laws of nature, so these qualities they have developed.

Prajapati: But why are they so very puffed up and proud even with these defects, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: That is the, that is the... Therefore we say they are rascals.

Karandhara: Arrogant.

Prabhupada: Arrogant. They have no qualification; still, they are puffed up. That is rascaldom.

Bali Mardana: Prabhupada, when the universes are emanated from the body of Maha-Visnu, they begin to expand.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Bali Mardana: Is the universe still expanding?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is scientific theory.

Bali Mardana: Yeah. I think Einstein agreed with that also. Many scientists, they also have come to that conclusion.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, Einstein followed the theory that the universe is expanding. So people accept it.

Karandhara: While the exhaling is going on, the universe is expanding. In the inhaling...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: :...the universe is contracting.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not contracting. They'll be finished. Destroyed. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. This is the nature, material nature. It will grow. Just like the tree has grown. One day there will be no more, finished. Your body has grown and one day it will now finish. That is material nature. Similarly, this universe. It has grown, and one day it will be finished.

Umapati: Is darkness eternal, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Umapati: Is darkness eternal?

Prabhupada: No. Darkness is within this universe, not outside. Not outside.

Karandhara: Darkness has no separate existence.

Prabhupada: Darkness means absence of light. That is darkness. It is the negation of light. Similarly, material life means forgetfulness of God. That's all... What is our spiritual life? We are simply trying to revive our understanding of God. That is spiritual life. And when you perfectly revive, that is spiritual. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna... [break] ...whatever you do, that is your defeat. Because you cannot see things in the proper perspective, therefore in darkness or in ignorance, whatever you do, that is your defeat. Therefore we see that so much advancement of education, civilization, but everything is defeat. Nobody's satisfied. Because it is defeat. It is not progress. It is defeat.

Bali Mardana: We have to be led by someone who can see.

Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise, if you led by another blind man, what is your benefit? Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. And our thankless task is... Just like a blind man going, falling into the ditch, we say, "No, no. Don't go there. You'll fall down." But he becomes angry, "Why you are instructing me?" That is our thankless task. We have to do it. How we can see that this blind man is going...? He'll immediately fall and die. How we can remain silent? We must have to say. That is our business, that "For want of Krsna consciousness, you are going to die. Take it. Be saved." But they do not like it.

Umapati: The followers of Guru Maharaji, the so-called...

Prabhupada: Well, don't talk of Guru Maharaji. He's a rascal. What is the use of talking about him?

Umapati: They say that...

Prabhupada: They say! They are fools and rascals. We are not concerned.

Umapati: (too faint)

Hrdayananda: Oh, this way, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: What do they say?

Bali Mardana: They have no philosophy. It is useless to discuss.

Prabhupada: Everyone is nonsense. A set of nonsense.

Umapati: If we ask them what is the basis of their philosophy that they understand Maharaji to be a seer...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Umapati: ...they have no answer. They have no...

Prabhupada: That is good question. Yes. On what standard you accept him?

Svarupa Damodara: They want to be cheated.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: People want to be cheated.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the society of cheater and cheated.

Prajapati: Sometimes great souls, they will cheat people also for their own benefit?

Prabhupada: Uh? But a great soul will never cheat. One who cheats, he's not great soul. He's the menial soul. Soul is not menial or great, but he's covered by maya.

Svarupa Damodara: But Lord Buddha cheated the...

Prabhupada: Hmmm?

Svarupa Damodara: Lord Buddha.

Prabhupada: Cheat, His cheating was perfect, because he cheated for the good. They did not believe in God, and God came, "Yes there is no God. Just follow me." But he's God. That's all.

Svarupa Damodara: So God can only do.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satsvarupa: What about Sankara's cheating?

Prabhupada: Yes. Sankara's cheating is also like that, because he was taking, he was accepting from the Buddhists. If he immediately says that "Lord Buddha was, cheated you," they'll not accept. Therefore he made some compromise. The Buddhist theory is "void," and he said, "No form." So it is almost the same. But he said, "There is Brahman." Brahma satyam jagan mithya. That much improvement. The same process. Just like one wants to eat meat. He is given some regulation, "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you do like this: Go to a mosque. On Eid day you can kill one animal." Or "You go to the synagogue under the protection of..." And our Hindu sastra says, "Go to the Goddess Kali's temple, and get a goat, black goat." That means under condition. If it is good thing, it would have been sanctioned, "Yes, you can do whatever you like." But it is not good. But if you say, "It is not good," he'll not accept. Therefore under some condition. [break]

Prajapati: There's a group called Christian Scientists. They say God is not a person. He's simply a principle, a principle of truth, beauty, all these, just qualities.

Prabhupada: But show the example, what is that principle?

Karandhara: What is the meaning of principle without person?

Prabhupada: What is the meaning of principle? Show me. You are talking nonsense.

Prajapati: They say He's a principle is...

Prabhupada: As soon as you call "principle," there must be a person. There must be a person. Otherwise, there is no principle.

Bali Mardana: Just like when you say, "law," there has to be a government.

Prabhupada: Yes. You have to accept one law-maker.

Bali Mardana: They say, "the law of nature," but they refuse to acc...

Prabhupada: Any law, as soon as you say, "law", you must have to accept a law-maker. Any law. Otherwise, there is no... Just like the law is: "When there is red light, you must stop." You don't see any person, but if you don't stop, then you go to a person who will prosecute you. You don't see the person here, but if you violate, you'll have to go to a person who will fine you, "You rascal, you have done this." So ultimately a purusa, person.

Karandhara: [break] ...just for atheists who want to be a little pious, but they're not...

Prabhupada: Yes, little, little moralist.

Karandhara: Yes. Moral atheists.

Prajapati: In the West, there's what's known as Protestant Ethic, which means you work hard like a dog and a cat.

Karandhara: And enjoy, enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is done by the pigs. Whole day, finding out "Where is stool? Where is stool? Where is stool?" And as soon as he eats some stool, gets some fat, "Where is sex? Never mind, mother, sister, or daughter. Come on, sex." This is pig life, pig civilization. It is not human civilization. This kind of behavior is found amongst the pigs, amongst the dogs. Do you think we have to create a human society like the pigs' society? At the present moment, they're eating anything and everything like pigs, and they're having sex with anyone, never mind. So it is a pig society. There is no discrimination. [break] ...the most popular thing is this drinking, eating meat and drinking wine. Is that to be accepted because it is very popular?

Svarupa Damodara: But they use transcendental meditation...

Prabhupada: What is this transcendental meditation? They do not know. The another cheater, and he's big amongst the cheated. That's all.

Bali Mardana: There's nothing transcendental about it.

Yasomatinandana: But they call it "transcendental."

Prabhupada: They can call anything. Just like... Just like...

Svarupa Damodara: It's now taught almost over all of the universities now here.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: They have...

Hrdayananda: But the, but the sincere people don't believe it. When we go to the colleges, many students come to us and say, "These people are cheating us." They know it.

Karandhara: They don't even talk about God, transcendental meditation.

Satsvarupa: Creative Intelligence.

Bali Mardana: Psychological.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: The intelligent students know they're cheaters.

Svarupa Damodara: But it has been accepted all over the country.

Hrdayananda: Not by the intelligent.

Bali Mardana: They're tricking the government.

Prabhupada: Not... I don't accept. We don't accept. Why do they say "all over the country"?

Svarupa Damodara: No, I mean in schools, in colleges.

Prabhupada: No.

Svarupa Damodara: They have departments.

Prabhupada: They why they are complaining?

Hrdayananda: The intelligent students all criticize it. Many, many people criticize it.

Svarupa Damodara: I saw a big pamphlet.

Bali Mardana: They've made...

Prabhupada: What is that meditation?

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, they meditate for fifteen, twenty minutes... (indistinct) ...I think. You have to pay some money for that.

Hrdayananda: They say, they say it will increase your sense gratification, make more money.

Bali Mardana: But they don't, they do not claim any spiritual benefit. It is only material benefit that they claim.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: They why "Transcendental"?

Bali Mardana: Well, it's just a catchy name.

Svarupa Damodara: They have so many scientific tests like blood tests, the blood, circulation of the blood is improved, the mental condition is improved.

Prabhupada: That is all material. That has nothing to do with spiritual. Blood is not spiritual. It is material.

Bali Mardana: It may have some material advantage.

Prabhupada: Yes. Blood is there in the cats and dogs also. That is also circulatlng.

Karandhara: A combination of psychotherapy and (indistinct).

Bali Mardana: Yeah.

Prabhupada: No,...

Svarupa Damodara: No, they are saying...

Prabhupada: Even an animal, the blood circulation is better. Therefore he's better than transcendental meditation. (laughter)

Svarupa Damodara: No, they're saying that, uh...

Prabhupada: If the transcendental meditation is concerned with the blood circulation, you'll find in the animals, the blood circulation is first-class. Therefore above transcendental.

Umapati: In the same regard, they admire animals for that reason.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Umapati: In the same regard, they admire animals for...

Svarupa Damodara: No, actually, transcendental meditation is Krsna consciousness, but these people are saying that if I compare with a man who is practicing transcendental meditation with a normal man, then... They compare different, these tests, they're called physiological tests.

Prabhupada: Yes. That physiological test, you can do between man and animal. The animal will be found better. Their circulation of blood is most natural.

Karandhara: Also the state of mind which they claim is beneficial, the same state of mind can be reached more quickly by smoking opium.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hrdayananda: Well.

Bali Mardana: We know from experience.

Karandhara: Yes. Calm state of mind, emitting alpha rays, alpha brain waves. Smoke opium you get the same thing.

Hrdayananda: Really? No, the intelligent students all know it's cheating.

Umapati: They say that's an easy way.

Karandhara: Why not take the easy way?

Prabhupada: First of all, we have to understand what is meant by transcendental.

Svarupa Damodara: That word they use wrongly. That is transcendental. They use the word "transcendental meditation," but it is not actually transcendental.

Karandhara: They had this one machine. They put a tester on the...

Prabhupada: Bring any student of transcendental meditation and talk with our student. He'll be kicked out immediately. That is the test.

Hrdayananda: You're right, Prabhupada. They're cheaters. I talked to one of their leaders at a college, and I, I defeated all their points. Then they simply became embarrassed and said, "Well, I don't want to talk any more." And they went away.

Prabhupada: That's good. (laughter)

Karandhara: They made this one machine to test how advanced they were.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Karandhara: It had a light bulb on it. So they put a thing on the person's head, and when he's in transcendental meditation, if the light bulb goes on, then he's in samadhi. So one man came and smoked opium and put the machine on his head and the light stayed on. (laughter)

Prabhupada: They are speaking of "transcendental," but testing by mundane.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Transcendental perfection is tested by mundane instruments.

Hrdayananda: Boy, that's contradiction.

Bali Mardana: They don't ever use the word "trans..." They just call it "TM."

Prajapati: [break] ...Srila Prabhupada, is what's called "linguistic analysis."

Prabhupada: Hm.

Prajapati: So they don't want to find out really what God is, but simply what do you mean when you use the word "God".

Prabhupada: We mean God is great. That's all. There is no need of linguistic analysis. One word is sufficient. God is great.

Karandhara: They would say the psychology of that is that you're suffering from an inferiority complex.

Prabhupada: Eh. You are inferior. You are being kicked every moment by the laws of nature. How do you claim that you are superior? Why you are covering? Because you are kicked by the laws of material nature.

Umapati: There's no complex.

Prabhupada: There is no question... You have to cover yourself.

Bali Mardana: They say that...

Prabhupada: How do you say you are superior? You are inferior. As soon as you cover your body, you are inferior.

Karandhara: They say, "Well, we, I made this hat. So whatever inferiorities I have, I can conquer them by my intelligence."

Prabhupada: But that intelligence, superior intelligence will never come to you. You'll always remain inferior.

Hrdayananda: What about death?

Prabhupada: Yes. We are always inferior.

Svarupa Damodara: They will prolong death.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarupa Damodara: They will prolong death. They're trying to prolong.

Prabhupada: "They're trying."

Svarupa Damodara: A bit longer.

Prabhupada: Death.

Svarupa Damodara: Ultimately, find there is no death.

Prabhupada: No, what...? Death is... What do you mean by death?

Svarupa Damodara: Losing the material body.

Prabhupada: Yes. So that you are losing every day, every moment. You are not today what you were yesterday, that you are losing. So, how can you defeat? You are, every moment you are being defeated.

Svarupa Damodara: There are some theories now. By turning the temperature, by cooling down little more than the body temperature, you can live longer.

Prabhupada: Well, you can live little longer, but you cannot live forever. That is not possible.

Umapati: They're freezing the body now, Prabhupada, in the hopes that sometime in the future science will be able to make them come back to life.

Prabhupada: That is all future. That is all future.

Hrdayananda: They take so much money for it.

Prabhupada: It is not practical.

Karandhara: The trouble is when they lower the body temperature, the sensitivity is lowered. Therefore enjoyment is also lowered. So it's a question of living for a few more years and enjoying less or enjoying more and living less.

Svarupa Damodara: But the government is very kind to them. They supply money to do research on that, thousands of dollars.

Prabhupada: And what is the government? Combination of some rascals. You are a rascal. You vote another rascal, and they combine together and become government. That's all. None of them are intelligent. I am rascal. So I must vote another rascal. And all those combination of rascals become government. And they cheat another, the rascals who voted them. That's all. Therefore it is a society of cheater and cheated.

Prajapati: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada, for letting us walk with you this morning!

Prabhupada: Eh!

Prajapati: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada! (Prabhupada gets in car) (end)