Prabhupada: That's a fact. Today the superior training and intelligence. No so-called gentleman will hear. (indistinct) attention continually. Nobody will hear. They come and hear, they go on. But they were hearing very seriously. Was it not?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Questions were intelligent. So all these frustrated boys and girls in the Western world, they are all good candidate. You have to organize to give them; they are searching after.

Syamasundara: It seems like that it's the nature of all living entities to be mad after something.

Prabhupada: Yes. Love. That I explainedlove. We have got our love in store. But instead of loving Krsna, we have distributed the love in so many ways, and frustrated. Love is there in store. That is reserved for Krsna. And we are trying to love Krsna, that I explained. Why I am loving this body and this apartment? Ultimately he goes to Krsna. But that you do not know. You are actually trying to love Krsna. But because nobody is giving him Krsna, he's crying.

Syamasundara: That was the name of Allen Ginsberg's first book, Howl.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamasundara: Howl.

Prabhupada: Howa?

Syamasundara: Howl. That means it was a protest, a howling, "You have not given us the right information," to his elders. "Now what do we do? Simply howl." That was the introduction for our generation, and we all listened to that, read that, the howl protest.

Prabhupada: He is also searching after; therefore he comes. Whenever he finds opportunity, he comes to me. He's searching after Krsna.

Syamasundara: Yes. He gets so many bogus ideas. (laughs)

Prabhupada: (chuckles) But still he's attached to us.

Syamasundara: He embraces you when you meet.

Prabhupada: Yes. He likes me. (laughter) Simply his only objection is that I am very conservative. He said, "Swamiji, you are very conservative." Because I forbid so many things. He cannot. Otherwise he would have joined me, but he cannot.

Syamasundara: No.

Prabhupada: He knows that "Unless I give up all these bad habits, Swami will not accept me."

Devotee (1): He is a very enthusiastic chanter.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (1): Oh, we were in this chapel chanting.

Prabhupada: He was there?

Devotee (1): Yes, he was there. He came down on stage, jumping up and down, "Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Hare Krsna." Then he cooked prasadam. He was very enthusiastic.

Prabhupada: No, he has promised to me that "Wherever I shall go, I shall chant." That he has promised.

Syamasundara: He's going to be... He gave me his address in California, so he'll be living there for some time.

Prabhupada: I asked him that if he was there he can see me again. Our mission is very nice. We want to see everyone happy. We don't want anything from anyone. We don't say that "You give me fee, then I give you some mantra." No, we don't say like that. Our instruction is free. I want to see that they are doing it and they are happy, that's all. Radha-krsna bolo, sange calo, ei-matra bhikha cai, this Bhaktivinoda's, "You simply chant Hare Krsna and come with me. This much I want. I don't want anything else."

Syamasundara: So one who is mad after something else material, mad after this or that...

Prabhupada: It is perverted.

Syamasundara: And he must transfer his love..., madness to Krsna.

Prabhupada: That madness should be for Krsna.

Syamasundara: So how is that madness transferred?

Prabhupada: By this devotional service. You practice it to love Krsna. And then when you come to the actual stage, you will be mad after Krsna. This is the process to bring to you..., bring you to the platform.

Syamasundara: No other way can replace...

Prabhupada: Bhaktya mam abhijanati: [Bg. 18.55] by devotional service. Neither by jnana, yoga, karma, no, that will not touch. You cannot become mad after Krsna by any means except by this devotional service. Therefore, we are so much conservative. Because if we are actually after Krsna, then we must accept the real method.

Devotee (2): Though we must be eager for devotional service, we still have to have this patience and determination, then create some...

Prabhupada: Yes, because maya is strong, sometimes you are deviated. Therefore we have to be determined.

Syamasundara: It seems only natural, gradually if you are all the time serving, serving, serving Krsna, eventually...

Prabhupada: Yes, this is the only way. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah [Brs. 1.2.234]. By your service, Krsna will automatically reveal Himself. He wants service; therefore He said, "Surrender unto Me." "Surrender unto Me," not stop all activities. "Surrender unto Me." What He will say, you do. That is surrender. Just like Arjuna surrendered. So surrender means that he had to fight. That is surrender. Not that "I surrender, I do nothing." That is not surrender. That is only negation. Doing nothing of the material things, that is negation. Take the positive view. That is doing always for Krsna.

Syamasundara: Eventually your mind will become so occupied, and every field of activity will become so occupied, that you will forget everything else, eventually.

Prabhupada: Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Brs. 1.1.11]. Zero, all everything zero, make it zero. Sunyam. Jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. Jnana-karma means there is some aspiration of profit. Karmis, they are trying to be elevated in the higher planetary system. And jnanis, they are wanting to become one with the Supreme. So that is also demand. That means there is some desire. It is anyabhilasita-sunyam [Cc. Madhya 19.167]. But one has to become anyabhilasita-sunyamany desire, make it zero. Then what to do, I shall become dull and dumb? No. Anukulyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], you have to work according..., favorably, as Krsna desires. That's it. That is wanted, that is bhakti. Anukulyena krsnanu, that is wanted. You have to simply abide by the orders of Krsna or His representative, that's all. That is required.

Syamasundara: Then you become automatically mad after Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. The more you practice, the more you become mad.

Devotee (2): As in that verse, "Thus by the higher self conquer the lower... Thus with the higher self conquer the lower self and curb the insatiable enemy known as lust."

Prabhupada: Higher self? I don't follow.

Devotee (2): That verse in the Gita?

Prabhupada: No, this is Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. You will find in Nectar of Devotion. Anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. You have read this Nectar of Devotion?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: You will find there. Where is Nectar of Devotion? Bring it.

Syamasundara: So our business, our main business really is engaging people in serving Krsna.

Prabhupada: Somehow or other engage. If you cannot engage him, then let him simply eat. Engage him in eating, that's all. We are actually doing in the beginning: "Please come here and take some prasadam and go home." Anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc. Madhya 19.167].

Syamasundara: Turn the light switch on. (break) Which, the first sentence?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: "The three categories of devotional service which Srila Rupa Gosvami describes in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu are listed as devotional service in practice, devotional service in ecstasy and devotional service in pure love of Godhead. There are many subheadings in each of these categories. Generally it is understood that in the category of devotional service in practice there are two different qualities, devotional service in ecstasy has four qualities, and devotional service in pure love of Godhead has six qualities. These qualities will be explained by Srila Rupa Gosvami later on.

"In this connection, Srila Rupa Gosvami suggests that the person eligible for Krsna consciousness, or devotional service, can be classified by his particular taste. He says that devotional service is a continual process from one's previous life. No one can take to devotional service unless he has had some previous connection with it. For example, suppose in this life I practice devotional service to some extent. Even though it is not one-hundred-percent perfectly performed, still, whatever I have done will not be lost. In my next life, from the very point where I had stopped in this life, I shall begin again. In this way there is always a continuity. But even if there is no continuity, if only by chance a person takes interest in a pure devotee's instruction, he can be accepted and advance in devotional service."

Prabhupada: This is the point. Preaching means this. Even one has no previous record of service, still, if he meets a pure devotee, he becomes enthusiastic. Therefore preaching required. Otherwise, one can say that whatever he has done last life, he will begin from there. No. Then?

Syamasundara: "Anyway, for persons who have a natural taste for understanding books like the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, devotional service is easier than for those who are simply accustomed to mental speculation and argumentative processes.

"To support this statement there are many authoritative assertions by the learned scholars of bygone ages. According to their general opinion, a person may become governed by certain convictions derived by his own arguments and decisions. Then another person, who may be a greater logician, will nullify these conclusions and establish another thesis. In this way the path of argument will never be safe or conclusive. The Srimad-Bhagavatam recommends, therefore, that one follow in the footsteps of the authorities.

"Here is a general description of devotional service given by Sri Rupa Gosvami in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Previously, it has been stated that devotional service can be divided into three categories-namely devotional service in practice, devotional service in ecstasy and devotional service in pure love of God. Now Sri Rupa Gosvami proposes to describe devotional service in practice. Practice means employing our senses in some particular type of work. Therefore devotional service in practice means utilizing our different sensory organs in service to Krsna. Some of the senses are meant for acquiring knowledge, and some are meant for executing the conclusions of our thinking, feeling and willing.

"Practice means employing both the mind and the senses in practical devotional service. This practice is not for developing something artificial. For example, a child learns or practices to walk. This walking is not unnatural. The walking capacity is there originally in the child, and simply by a little practice he walks very nicely. Similarly, devotional service to the Supreme Lord is the natural instinct of every living entity. Even uncivilized men like the aborigines offer their respectful obeisances to something wonderful exhibited by nature's law, and they appreciate that behind some wonderful exhibition or action there is something supreme. So this consciousness, though lying dormant in those who are materially contaminated, is found in every living entity. And when it is purified, this is called Krsna consciousness.

"There are certain prescribed methods for employing our senses and mind in such a way that our dormant consciousness for loving Krsna will be invoked, as much as the child, with a little practice, can begin to walk. One who has no basic walking capacity cannot walk by practice. Similarly, Krsna consciousness cannot be aroused simply by practice. Actually there is no such practice. When we wish to develop our innate capacity for devotional service, there are certain processes which, by our accepting and executing them, will cause that dormant capacity to be invoked. Such practice is called sadhana-bhakti.

"Every living entity under the spell of material energy is held to be in an abnormal condition of madness. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said, 'Generally, the conditioned soul is mad, because he is always engaged in activities which are the causes of bondage and suffering.' The spirit soul in its original condition is joyful, blissful, eternal and full of knowledge, and only by his implication in material activities has he become miserable, temporary and full of ignorance. This is due to vikarma. Vikarma means 'actions which should not be done.' Therefore, we must practice sadhana-bhakti, which means to offer mangala-arati (Deity worship) in the morning, to refrain from certain material activities, to offer obeisances to the spiritual master and to follow many other rules and regulations which will be discussed here, one after another. These practices will help one to become cured of madness. As a man's mental disease is cured by the directions of a psychiatrist, so this sadhana-bhakti cures the conditioned soul of his madness under the spell of maya, or material illusion.

"Narada Muni mentions this sadhana-bhakti in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Seventh Canto, First Chapter, 30th verse. He says there to King Yudhisthira, 'My dear King, one has to fix his mind on Krsna by any means.' That is called Krsna consciousness. It is the duty of the acarya, spiritual master, to find the ways and means for his disciple to fix his mind on Krsna. That is the beginning of sadhana-bhakti.

"Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given us an authorized program for this purpose, centered around the chanting of the Hare Krsna mantra. This chanting has so much power that it immediately attaches one to Krsna. That is the beginning of sadhana-bhakti. Somehow or other, one has to fix his mind on Krsna. The great saint Ambarisa Maharaja, although a responsible king, fixed his mind on Krsna, and similarly anyone who tries to fix his mind in this way will very rapidly make progress in successfully reviving his original Krsna consciousness.

"Now this sadhana-bhakti, or practice of devotional service, can also be divided into two parts. The first part is called regulative principles: one has to follow these different regulative principles by the order of the spiritual master or on the strength of authoritative scriptures, and there can be no question of refusal. That is called vaidhi, or regulated. One has to do it without any argument. Another part of sadhana-bhakti is called raganuga. Raganuga refers to the point at which, by following the regulative principles, one becomes a little more attached to Krsna and executes devotional service out of natural love. For example, a person engaged in devotional service may be ordered to rise early in the morning and offer arati, which is a form of Deity worship. In the beginning, by the order of his spiritual master, one rises early in the morning and offers arati, but then he develops real attachment. When he gets this attachment, he automatically tries to decorate the Deity and prepare different kinds of dresses and thinks of different plans to execute his devotional service nicely. Although it is within the category of practice, this offering of loving service is spontaneous. So the practice of devotional service, sadhana-bhakti, can be divided into two parts-namely, regulative and spontaneous.

"Rupa Gosvami defines the first part of devotional practice, or vaidhi-bhakti, as follows: 'When there is no attachment or no spontaneous loving service to the Lord, and one is engaged in the service of the Lord simply out of obedience to the order of the spiritual master or in pursuance of the scriptures, such obligatory service is called vaidhi-bhakti.'

"These principles of vaidhi-bhakti are also described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Second Canto, First Chapter, verse 35, where Sukadeva Gosvami instructs the dying Maharaja Pariksit as to his course of action. Maharaja Pariksit met Sukadeva Gosvami just a week before his death, and the King was perplexed as to what should be done before he was to pass on. Many other sages also arrived there, but no one could give him the proper direction. Sukadeva Gosvami, however, gave this direction to him as follows: 'My dear King, if you want to be fearless in meeting your death next week [for actually everyone is afraid at the point of death], then you must immediately begin the process of hearing and chanting and remembering God.' So if one can chant and hear Hare Krsna and always remember Lord Krsna, then he is sure to become fearless of death, which may come at any moment.

"In the statements of Sukadeva Gosvami it is said that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna. Therefore Sukadeva Gosvami recommends that one should always hear about Krsna. He does not recommend that one hear and chant about the demigods. The Mayavadis, or impersonalists, say that you can chant any name, either that of Krsna or those of the demigods, and the results will be the same. But actually this is not a fact. According to the authorized version of Srimad-Bhagavatam, one has to hear and chant about Lord Visnu (Krsna) only.

"So Sukadeva Gosvami has recommended to Pariksit Maharaja that in order to be fearless of death, one has to hear and chant and remember the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, by all means. He also mentions that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is sarvatma. Sarvatma means 'the Supersoul of everyone.' Krsna is also mentioned as isvara, the supreme controller who is situated in everyone's heart. Therefore, if some way or other we become attached to Krsna, He will make us free from all danger. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that anyone who becomes a devotee of the Lord is never vanquished. Others, however, are always vanquished. 'Vanquished' means that after getting this human form of life, a person does not come out of the entanglement of birth and death, and thus he misses his golden opportunity. Such a person does not know where he is being thrown by the laws of nature.

"Suppose one does not develop Krsna consciousness in this human form of life. He will then be thrown into the cycle of birth and death, involving 8,400,000 species of life, and his spiritual identity will remain lost. One does not know whether he is going to be a plant, or a beast, or a bird, or something like that, because there are so many species of life. The recommendation of Rupa Gosvami for reviving our original Krsna consciousness is that somehow or other we should apply our minds to Krsna very seriously and thus also become fearless of death. After death we do not know our destination, because we are completely under the control of the laws of nature. Only Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is controller over the laws of nature. Therefore, if we take shelter of Krsna seriously, there will be no fear of being thrown back into the cycle of so many species of life. A sincere devotee will surely be transferred to the abode of Krsna, as affirmed in the Bhagavad-gita.

"In the Padma Purana, also, the same process is advised. There it is said that one should always remember Lord Visnu. This is called dhyana, or meditationalways remembering Krsna. It is said that one has to meditate with his mind fixed upon Visnu. Padma Purana recommends that one always fix his mind on the form of Visnu by meditation and not forget Him at any moment. And this state of consciousness is called samadhi, or trance.

"We should always try to mold the activities of our lives in such a way that we will constantly remember Visnu, or Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness. Whether one concentrates his mind on the four-handed form of Visnu or on the form of two-handed Krsna, it is the same. The Padma Purana recommends: somehow or other always think of Visnu, without forgetting Him under any circumstances. Actually this is the most basic of all regulative principles. For, when there is an order from a superior about doing something, there is simultaneously a prohibition. So when the order is that one should always remember Krsna, the prohibition is that one should never forget Him. Within this simple order and prohibition, all regulative principles are found complete.

"This regulative principle is applicable to all varnas and asramas, the castes and occupations of life. There are four varnas, namely the brahmanas (priests and intellectuals), the ksatriyas (warriors and statesmen), the vaisyas (businessmen and farmers) and the sudras (laborers and servants). There are also four standard asramas, namely brahmacarya (student life), grhastha (householder), vanaprastha (retired) and sannyasa (renounced). The regulative principles are not only for the brahmacaris (the celibate students) to follow, but are applicable for all. It doesn't matter whether one is a beginnera brahmacarior if one is very advanceda sannyasi. The principle of remembering the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly and not forgetting Him at any moment is meant to be followed by everyone, without fail.

"If this injunction is followed, then all other rules and regulations will automatically fall into line. All other rules and regulations should be treated as assistants or servants to this one basic principle. The injunctions of rules and regulations and the resultant reactions are mentioned in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Fifth Chapter, first and second verses. Camasa Muni, one of the nine sages who came to instruct King Nimi, addressed the King and said, 'The four social orders, namely the brahmanas, the ksatriyas, the vaisyas and the sudras, have come out of the different parts of the universal form of the Supreme Lord as follows: the brahmanas have come out from the head, the ksatriyas have come out from the arms, the vaisyas have come out from the waist, and the sudras have come out from the legs. Similarly, the sannyasis have come out from the head, the vanaprasthas from the arms, the grhasthas from the waist and the brahmacaris from the legs.'

"These different orders of society and grades of spiritual advancement are conceived in terms of qualification. It is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita that the four social orders and the four spiritual orders are created by the Lord Himself, in terms of different individual qualities. As the different parts of the body have different types of activities, so the social orders and spiritual orders also have different types of activities in terms of their qualification and position. The target of these activities, however, is always the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, 'He is the supreme enjoyer.' So whether one is a brahmana or a sudra, he has to satisfy the Supreme Lord by his activities. This is also confirmed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam by a verse which reads, 'Everyone must be engaged in his particular duty, but the perfection of such work should be tested by how far the Lord is satisfied with such activities.' The injunction herein is that one has to act according to his position, and by such activities, one must either satisfy the Supreme Personality or else fall down from his position." It's so clear.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamasundara: It's so clear, this book.

Prabhupada: You read regularly, Nectar of Devotion, regularly. All these books should be regularly read. That will give you guidance. You haven't got to ask repeatedly to me; everything is there. You are selling Nectar of Devotion?

Devotee (2): We're waiting for our next shipment from Japan. Then we'll begin.

Prabhupada: These four books will give you all guidance-Krsna, Nectar of Devotion, Bhagavad-gita As It Is, and... What is that?

Prabhupada: All guidance. Radha-krsna bolo bolo bolo re sobai.

Devotee (1): What does that mean?

Prabhupada: Lord Caitanya is preaching simply this, that you all chant Radha-Krsna, or Hare Krsna, that's all. Ei sikha diya, sab nadiya phirche nece' gaura-nitai. "By teaching this philosophy, the two brothers, Gaura-Nitai, are traveling all over Nadia." Mayar bose, jaccho bhese', Khaccho habudubu bhai. "Why you are being carried away by the waves of maya? Why, unnecessarily? And you are being drowned and saved." Jiv krsna-das, e biswas, korle, "Simply believe that you are eternal servant of Krsna, then all these troubles immediately gone." Bolbe jabe, pulak ha'be, that "If you chant this, then you will feel ecstasy." Radha krsna bolo, sange calo, ei-matra bhikha, "So I don't ask you anything. Simply chant and come with me." Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Have you got puffed rice? No.

Devotee (2): In the shop. You have to get it from the shop.

Prabhupada: But I don't think you can get now.

Devotee (1): We could try.

Syamasundara: Any stores open?

Devotee (1): I'll go see.

Syamasundara: That supermarket?

Devotee (2): It's Easter Sunday.

Devotee (1): There's a little shop, they always carry puffed rice.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Syamasundara: Puffed rice in the box.

Prabhupada: You have got peanuts?

Devotee (2): Yes. Peanuts, milk.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (2): Peanuts and milk?

Prabhupada: No, puffed rice and peanuts, and milk separate. (laughter)

Devotee (2): These flowers here in the vase on your desk, they only..., the smell, the flavor, only comes out at night.

Prabhupada: Rajiniganda. They are called Rajiniganda.

Devotee (2): Night Queen?

Prabhupada: Very nice flower. (indistinct) In English is called (indistinct)? What do you call in English?

Devotee (2): Night Queen. In Fiji they call them Night Queen. I didn't know if this was the same thing.

Prabhupada: Just see how Krsna's creation, wonderful creation. And they defy, "Oh, what nonsense they are." There is no brain in creating such nice flower, flavor? "It is automatic, nature, nature." What is this nature? Rascal. Nature means rascaldom. Nature. What do you mean by nature? Just see how foolish they are. They cannot explain what is this nature. Simply say. I'm simply sorry that the so-called institution education simply making people all fools and rascals. That is my grief only. I am therefore trying to give them some intelligence. The whole program is to create some fools and rascals, that's all. Any philosopher, any scientist comes, I can say that "You are simply creating fools and rascals because you are also fools and rascals." I can say, challenge. Then let us come to argument. "You are such a fool and rascal and you are creating fools and rascals, that's all. That is your business." And that is going on as the advancement of education. You do not know. What do you... How do you explain? You say nature. That means you are fool. We have got our explanation. Krsna, His energy is working. Svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca. His energy is so fine and nice that automatically it appears that the color has come, the painting has come, but there is working, very fine work, working. The modern science, you want to talk with a friend, immediately you pay something, telephone, "Yes, I am speaking." Actually the man is there, he is talking and I am hearing, but by scientific arrangement is so that he is thousand miles away, just like speaking with him. But he has come before me. Although he is away thousand miles, it appears that he has come before me and talking.

So if this energy, electric energy, can work so wonderful, how much wonderful energies are there in Krsna that He is working and it is coming out, automatically. You say..., cannot explain, you will say it is nature. No. The same working is there. Just like if you paint one flower, you have to take the brush, color, and nicely... You cannot do as nice. So Krsna has also to do the same thing, but the energy is so fine and quick, svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca. Krsna says and this will go on. Just like if you want to create something, a house, you have to apply, your engineer, your contractor, the ingredients. But Krsna also will do the same thing. But His energies are so fine and expert, He desires, "Let there be a skyscraper," immediately there is. But the process is there. Don't think it has come automatically. The same thing. If you want to speak to a friend a thousand miles away, you have to go there and find him, or he has to come. The process is there. By electricity, immediately he comes. Is it not be possible? Process is there that he has to come or you have to go. But by electricity, it is shortened. Similarly, the working capacity is going there, but it is so shortened and perfect, you see, "Oh, it has come automatically by nature." (indistinct) The process is so nice and short. That is real explanation. Process is there. You cannot say that... It appears like miracle because your brain cannot accommodate how quickly all these things come. You have got poor brain, you cannot accommodate. You are thinking, "If I have to..., I have to paint this, simply painting I have to take so much time."

Just like if a man asks you one thousand dollar, he is thinking, "He has to collect and pay me." But if you write a note, give it to Nanda-kumara, and he keeps it as check, and Nanda-kumara pays immediately one thousand dollars. So he will be surprised, "How is that? What is this writing, this immediately one thousand dollars came?" Because he is thinking, "If you want one thousand dollars, it will take one thousand days, and Swamiji wrote like this and immediately." The process is there. One thousand dollar collection, I have to do something and it has come there... But the energy is so quick, energy is so perfect, that simply by giving a note and he gets it. You cannot say the process is not there. The process is there. Just like modern scientific method has minimized space and time. For coming to Australia, fifty years ago it would have taken six months. Now we come six hours. The process coming is there. By scientific method, the space and time has been shortened. Similarly, in manufacturing this flower, the process is there; but the system of Krsna's energy is so perfect, it has shortened. Parasya saktir vividhaiva ... svabhaviki jnana-bala-kriya ca. Just like... What is that machine, IBM?

Syamasundara: Computer.

Prabhupada: Computer. That is mechanical, the calculation. The calculating process is there; but by nice machine, it is shortened. That process is Krsna's energy. He is so expert that it is just like computersimmediately comes. Not that the process is not there. Process is there.

Syamasundara: It seems like the more and more scientists try to investigate and imitate this process, they become more and more entangled in the complications. They can't understand it.

Prabhupada: That process is crude. They are thinking that it is very fine, but it is still crude. Just like here, the... What I was speaking?

Syamasundara: The more scientists investigate the workings of nature, the more complicated it becomes. They can never understand it.

Prabhupada: No.

Syamasundara: They think it's complicated, but still...

Prabhupada: Not complicated, it is perfect.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: But they have no brain to understand.

Syamasundara: It becomes more complex.

Prabhupada: Just like any ordinary man, how this tape recorder is working? There is a process. But because we have no brain, we think "How it has become? How it has become?"

Syamasundara: It's so complex to us.

Prabhupada: So one who does not know, it is complex. One who is in knowledge, for him it is not complex. Therefore, Bhagavata says anvayad vitarekabhyam(?). Anvayad itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is completely well versed. Krsna just like says, "Yes, I spoke this philosophy millions of years. I remember; you have forgot." There we have to study, how Krsna's brain is. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, "Yes, I spoke." When Arjuna defied, "How can I believe that You spoke millions of years ago this philosophy to sun-god?" "Yes, that's a fact. You also were there. But I remember, you don't remember." The child, just like father says, "My dear child, when you were two years old you fell down and there was a fracture in your brain." "Yes?" He cannot remember. The father can say, "Yes, it happened. You have forgotten. I remember." This is practical. Similarly, Krsna can remember everything, vedaham samatitani [Bg. 7.26]. You may not remember. You have no such brain, you are teeny. But why should you defy Krsna? Why should you deny the facility for Krsna? That means you are thinking, "Krsna, He is like me." Avajananti mam mudha. Because you are rascal, you are thinking Krsna is like another rascal like you. That is poor fund of knowledge. Param bhavam ajananto [Bg. 9.11]. "Because they do not know, rascal, what I am, what I can do," avajananti, "they think, 'Krsna is like me.' "

Syamasundara: So actually most people are innocent, but if the...

Prabhupada: Not innocent-rascal. Innocent, another thing. Innocent, if he is innocent, if I say, "You do not know, this is..." "Oh," then he will accept. But he will protest, a rascal. Innocent will accept. Therefore, the more one is innocent, simple, it is easy for him, Krsna consciousness. The more one is rascal, it is very difficult.

Devotee (2): Is one called Mayavada philosophy?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (2): Mayavadis, are they thinking like that, Krsna is...

Prabhupada: Yes, "He is ordinary man. A little better than me, that's all." That Dr. Frog's philosophy. Atlantic was "That's all right, may be little one feet more than this well, that's all." He cannot imagine that millions of wells will be not compared. That he cannot begin. He says, "Yes, it may be bigger, say one foot bigger, two feet bigger. All right, ten feet bigger, make compromise." That's all. He will never think that beyond his estimation. Never think. He'll simply calculate, "All right, if not one, two feet, three feet. All right, ten feet." And the friend will say, "No, no, it is very, very great."

Syamasundara: Once you said..., you quoted one verse in Mayapur and you said that everyone is dancing under Krsna's direction. I forgot your explanation.

Krsna is so kind. As Mayavadi philosopher you want to do something, Krsna will "All right, dance in this way. Dance, all right dance. You talk like this." Krsna gives him capacity to talk. Otherwise, he cannot talk even. So Krsna gives him intelligence, counterargument: "All right, let the rascal speak as he likes." Therefore, yare yaiche nacaya, He is allowing to dance everyone as he desires. But He says that "You give up all this nonsense, you simply surrender unto Me." That is His verse. Otherwise, if you want to dance, "All right, I give you facility to dance." The karmis are dancing. "All right, dance." The jnanis are dancing. "All right, dance. Go on speculating, but you will never understand Me."

Syamasundara: But He is always playing the tune, Krsna?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamasundara: Krsna is always playing the tune by which everyone is dancing?

Prabhupada: No. You wanted to dance like this, He is giving facility. He is not in agreement with you.

Syamasundara: Oh, I see.

Prabhupada: Otherwise, why does He say, "You give up all this nonsense, you surrender"? He does not approve, but he wanted to dance, "All right, you take the facility, dance." He doesn't like that you should dance like that, but he wants. "All right, you dance. You can take the facility, dance." Just like my Guru Maharaja, Tirtha Maharaja wanted his property. "All right, take this property." But what he is doing?

Syamasundara: Sitting there in his wheelchair.

Prabhupada: "You want this property, take property. All right." He's kind, "All right, this man gave me some service, he wants this property. All right, take this property." But what he has gained?

Syamasundara: Nothing.

Prabhupada: Yes. I never wanted his property. I simply desired that such a sublime message, like my poetry, that...

Syamasundara: First poem upon arriving.

Prabhupada: Yes. Miracle done. I wanted, "Oh, there is a miracle. If I try to preach this miracle in the world." So he has given me the facility. I never wanted the Gaudiya Matha buildings.

Syamasundara: So because you desired in a certain way, He provided that facility also.

Prabhupada: Yes, I desired that such a wonderful message, why not preach?

Devotee (3): And you got buildings also.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (3): You got buildings...

Prabhupada: Building automatically comes. But rascal fools, they do not understand this. That is mentioned in the... In bhakti, other success follows. Just like when the queen goes, there are many maidservants catching the..., what is called?

Syamasundara: Train.

Prabhupada: Train, yes. They follow. So if bhakti follows, then all other things follows. Bilvamangala Thakura also says that muktih mukulitanjali sevate asman, bhaktis tvayi sthiratara yadi bhagavan syad. "If there is pure devotion for You, then muktih mukulitanjali, mukti is standing, 'My dear sir, what can I do for you?' Folded hands." Dharmartha-kama-moksa samaya-pratiksah [SB 4.8.41]. "And the material happiness, they are simply waiting." The servant waits, "Yes, sir, what do you want?" Simply one has to develop.

There is definition given, bhaktis sthiratara, "Unflinching devotional service, if there is, then by Your will, anyone can see," divya-kisora murtih, "can see Me." And so far other things are concerned, mukti and bhukti, they are simply waiting.

Syamasundara: The whole secret of life has been lost when this civilization was lost. Every knowledge.

Prabhupada: Yes. So you try to give them, these foolish men. They are after dharma artha kama moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90]. Therefore, Bhagavata begins, dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra: [SB 1.1.2] all this cheating, rascaldom, is thrown away. Dharma artha kama moksa. Dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra. Sridhara Swami explains, kaitavah, these are all cheating. The so-called religion, so-called economic development, so-called sense gratification, so-called liberation, they're all cheating.

Syamasundara: Because they promise something they don't deliver?

Prabhupada: No, no. Even if you get it, what do you get? You go to... Supposed you go to church: "God, give us our daily bread." God is giving, then what do you get? Bread is given to the animals also. Why you are going to the church? That is the Communist say, that "We shall give you bread. Why you waste your time with so-called religions?" The politician says that "You want to be happy, there is technology. Why you are going to pray to God? This is all nonsense." They are thinking that. But prayer is not meant for that purpose. Prayer... Just like we are praying, but our prayer is "Krsna, kindly engage me in Your service," Hare Krsna. "O the energy of Krsna, O the Lord Krsna, please engage me in Your service." This is our prayer. We are not going to prayer, "O God, give us our daily bread." And if you get bread, then what do you gain?

Syamasundara: We've all experienced that. We've had so much bread. What did we get?

Prabhupada: That's it. Even you get bread, what do you get? Bread is already given even to the animals. That they do not know. Therefore, they take religion for material gain. Dharma artha. And Bhagavata says, arthasya dharmaikantasya kamo labhaya hi smrtah. When you get money, it is not for satisfaction of your senses. Kamasya nendriya-pritir [SB 1.2.10]. And when it is the question of kama, desire, that does not mean sense gratification. Labho jiveta yavata. Simply you have to accept thing for living. It is not that you shall not eat. You eat, live. Then what for living? Jivasya tattva-jijnasa nartho yas ceha karmabhih. Your working so hard is not that to develop your material condition of life. You live peacefully without any disturbance of hunger, but your life should be engaged in Krsna consciousness, asking about Krsna. That is life. So we don't want to stop all the activities. But they are busy always, they have no time for... Ask all these men, they are obstructing: "What these people are doing?" There is no end of their sense gratification. First of all get one motorcar is required, "All right." As soon as he gets money, "I'll purchase another one for my son, another for my daughter, another for my wife." Going on, going on. And he has to maintain four motorcars, then work hard, hard, hard. So indriya-pritih: "Oh, I have got a car, why not my son?"

Syamasundara: Boy, it's vicious.

Prabhupada: Vicious civilization. Simply increasing, increasing, increasing. And the government taking tax; therefore, he has to prepare roads. So in your country, the more the motorcar increasing, the more flying over, more bridges...

Syamasundara: More problems.

Prabhupada: More problems. Just like in Madras we saw, they are also imitating.

Syamasundara: Little tiny... (laughs)

Prabhupada: Little ti... (chuckles)

Devotee (1): A little tiny flyover.

Prabhupada: Yes, they are advancing.

Syamasundara: Only two lanes.

Prabhupada: And doing it for unlimited years. When they will be finished, there is no guarantee. Here in your country they do, they have contract, "Yes, within six months." But there is no guarantee. But that show is going on, that "We are doing something." Because it's imitation. There was no need, but they want to make advanced like the Americans.

Syamasundara: Huge, open intersection, no traffic, they're building a flyover.

Prabhupada: Similarly in Bombay also, they made one or two flyovers with great endeavor, and one flyover collapsed. That flyover between that Princesses Street and the Marine(?) Drive, yes, collapsed. Because all the contractors are thieves. Instead of giving cement, they are giving clay.

Syamasundara: Now their plan is to tunnel through under Malabar Hill and make a freeway along the..., the West Shore Expressway along Warden Road and Nipensi(?) Road.

Prabhupada: Freeway.

Syamasundara: Yes, and they began the tunnel when we first came there a year-and-a-half ago, and now I don't think it's more than fifty yards into the mountain.

Prabhupada: The tunnel is there?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Where?

Syamasundara: Just there between..., as you go up Nipensi(?) Road past the Russian Consulate, then there is an open space.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Syamasundara: In there.

Prabhupada: Some work is going on there?

Syamasundara: Yes, under there is a tunnel being excavated, under the mountain, under the Hanging Garden Park to the other side. And it will go along Chowpatti Expressway and under the mountain and then along Nipensi(?) Road.

Devotee (1): (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Chant Hare Krsna, and don't be misled by these rascals. Andha yathandair upaniyamanah. So you have to change this. This is scratching. It is very rough.

Syamasundara: Yes. We need some smooth sheeting here.

Prabhupada: Or you can take one my cloth and change.

Devotee (1): There's a cotton piece. I have one cotton cloth.

Prabhupada: That's all right. So you got puffed rice?

Devotee (1): No, Srila Prabhupada. I could not get.

Prabhupada: Puffed rice is difficult to obtain. In India, puffed rice is very easily available.

Syamasundara: He says that here they close the stores and the shops. All the time the shops are closed around here.

Prabhupada: All the time? Why?

Devotee (2): For holidays.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Devotee (2): A holiday will come, everything closes down. Four days, five days at a time. Banks, post offices.

Syamasundara: Not even a post office open.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Syamasundara: Even tomorrow nothing's open.

Devotee (2): It's really incredible. It's really a disturbance.

Prabhupada: What kind of government it is?

Devotee (1): Loafers.

Syamasundara: In India, the post office is always open. There's always some post office open. Even in small towns.

Prabhupada: That was also British management. Here also British management, how is that?

Devotee (2): In London it's always open.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (2): In London it's always open, the central post office.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (1): This one shuts down. They are eager to stop work and enjoy their senses. (break)

Prabhupada: So that anyone questions, you can answer. That is required, preaching. Just like this girl, "Why you are recommending your Bhagavad-gita?" Answer must be there: "Because this is. "They are all rascals. They are not speaking Bhagavad-gita as it is.

Syamasundara: She understood it also.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. You have no right. Suppose I have written one book. So I have got some intention. So why should you interpret my intention with your intention? What right you have got? You have no right. If you want to speak something of yours, then you write another book. Why you are taking advantage of my book and misleading others? I want to speak to the public something, I have expressed my opinion in that way. But because it is popular, you are taking advantage of my book and expressing your views. How much cheating, how much cheater you are! Therefore he is suffering, Dr. Radhakrishnan. He has lost his brain. We went to see him, Dr. Radhakrishnan, when I was in Madras. You went?

Syamasundara: Yes, like a vegetable, with no comprehension.

Prabhupada: Lost.

Syamasundara: At last he's become void.

Devotee (1): Yes. He surrendered to the void.

Prabhupada: Simply sitting down like this. He cannot ask whether he is hungry or not. His daughter is always attending, giving him some food, then he is eating. Otherwise, he does not say. Lost everything. He has mentioned Bhagavad-gita as a mental speculation, in his Indian Religion. So he is such a great offender, he must suffer. But it is good for him. Because he is a gentleman, therefore his offenses are being compensated in this life.

Devotee (1): So he hasn't got to pay next time.

Prabhupada: Yes. Next time he may be getting chance. Because he was at heart afraid of God. Because sometimes he was, "Swamiji, you pray for me to God." He told me that. At heart he was. But because he is impersonalist and mundane scholar, he was writing all nonsense.

Syamasundara: There's a whole class of scholars now called literary critics who simply take one book, or not even a scripture but any mundane book, and they spend their whole lives making comments what this must mean, what that must mean, "This is my opinion," "this is my thesis."

Prabhupada: Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed.

Syamasundara: That really is chewing the chewed.

Prabhupada: That is chewing the chewed.

Syamasundara: One book called Moby Dick...

Prabhupada: That is called scholar. "Oh, he is a big scholar."

Devotee (2): Is that the mayayapahrta-jnanah?

Prabhupada: Mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15], yes. All nonsense. You take it granted that anyone who has no Krsna consciousness, he is a nonsense, whatever he may be. That is I take it, and I challenged him like that. I criticized Dr. Radhakrishnan in my Back to Godhead, "scholar deluded." I was criticizing him like anything.

Devotee (2): That was the first Bhagavad-gita I read was this one by Radhakrishnan.

Prabhupada: I have criticized him like anything, yes.

Devotee (2): Then Paramananda and Satyabhama, they brought me this your Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Devotee (2): When I first..., in New York.

Prabhupada: Now this Macmillan's report is that ours selling more. Therefore, they have advanced to take up this enlarged edition. Otherwise, they are business. In the beginning they refused. They said, "No, no, we cannot publish so big volume. We can... If you minimize..." Therefore, we minimized it to four hundred pages.

Syamasundara: They made a study. They know what's going... They want all of your books. In the contract for Topmost Yoga and Easy Journey they have the option to take your next big book.

Devotee (3): In Harvard Library, your Bhagavad-gitathey have many, many Bhagavad-gitas, about four hundred, many, and Bhagavad-gita As It Is was taken out of late, since it's been in there, more than any other ones. They all have dust, and yours has been taken out. And Krsna book was never in, I could never see it in, because it was always out, from the very first day it was in. In fact, when it was going into the library, the head of the department, he took it right away.

Prabhupada: Another thing happened in Los Angeles. I wanted some quotation from a place of this Teachings of Lord Caitanya. So the man came, he said, "Swamiji, first of all I must buy this book. Either you accept or not accept our quotation, what price I shall pay?" I said, "Give me six dollars." Immediately he took this book. "Such a nice book I have never read. So either it is printed or not printed in our press, I must take this book." Actually, these ideas what we have explained in our books, they're unknown to the modern world. Unknown.

Syamasundara: They're not described anywhere else. No other source.

Prabhupada: Nobody knows that God can be person, there can be dealings like this, there are dealings actually, and they are described. That is wonderful.

Syamasundara: They don't know that life can be so joyful and endlessly...

Prabhupada: That I wrote in my poetry. "The Absolute is sentient thou hast proved." That was striking to me. Not impersonal, "sentient thou hast proved, impersonal calamity thou hast moved." "Absolute is sentient thou hast proved." That was my acceptance. So even the many judges came in Allahabad, do you remember?

Syamasundara: Yes. In Madras?

Prabhupada: No, Allahabad during Kumbha-mela. They said, "Swamiji, God is person, you are the first man speaking." Why first man? It is already there. They cannot believe that God is person.

Syamasundara: As long as there is imperson, there is doubt, there is unclear, unclear.

Prabhupada: Unclear.

Syamasundara: As soon as there is person, there is no doubt, clear.

Prabhupada: But we have tried to explain how He is person. Just like we try to explain how God is working. So one should have brain to study things. One must have clear idea how God is person, how He is working, how this cosmic manifestation is manifested by God's energy. Krsna says, maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta-murtina [Bg. 9.4]. "In My impersonal feature, everything is manifested there." Tatam idam sarvam. Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. So one has to apply his brainthat is intelligencehow it has become person. That is not false, that is fact. You cannot understand; your brain is teeny. That is different thing. Now you make your brain competent to understand this philosophy. (break) ...vijnatam bhavanti. So take this philosophy nicely, understand this philosophy, and preach. You will be victorious everywhere, because we can challenge anyone. If you know the trick, Krsna consciousness, you can challenge. Narayana-parah sarve na kutascana bibhyati [SB 6.17.28]. One who is narayana-parah, he is never afraid of anything.

Syamasundara: Whenever someone challenges you, you always know the trick, what their weak point is, the weakness is in their challenge, and you go right there. Every time.

Prabhupada: That is the trick of wrestling. (laughter)

Syamasundara: Find where they are off balance, where their balance is off.

Prabhupada: Anyway, there was a wrestler, he was not very strong, but he knew the trick how to defeat the strongest man.

Syamasundara: There is a science of equilibrium where you can study another person, if he is off equilibrium, you can move his body in such a way to defeat him every time. Japanese art.

Prabhupada: Train. That Los Angeles, there is one Japanese...

Syamasundara: Behind the temple.

Prabhupada: You know?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: What he is teaching?

Several devotees: Karate.

Prabhupada: Karate.

Syamasundara: That's it, same, that art of defeating someone if he is off balance a certain way.

Devotee (3): Karate is the art of hitting your nerve points. You can paralyze people with it. Just with one finger hitting on a certain nerve junction, you can paralyze a person.

Devotee (1): They do. They show movies of one man who has killed his nerves in the hand and a bull will be running like this, and he can put his hand through the bull and grab the heart. They're like that. They show movies like that. They develop like that.

Devotee (2): So much wasted effort.

Prabhupada: You have kept there some other razor?

Nanda-kumara: I have put yours back. Yours was in a bag I could not find immediately, so I put another one there, and now I've changed it back again. (break)

Devotee (1):...at least half of the energy that you have to preach.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Devotee (1): We may develop at least maybe half of your energy to continuously preach someday?

Prabhupada: Continuously?

Syamasundara: He says that someday he hopes that the devotees, your disciples, may acquire half of the energy that you have for preaching.

Prabhupada: Why not full or double? You may have doubled.

Devotee (1): It's inconceivable.

Prabhupada: Just like my Guru Maharaja did not travel all over the world, so I have got double energy than him. So you must triple energy, four times energy than me. Then actually disciple. My Godbrothers are envious because they could not do. They could not do even half of Guru Maharaja's work, and I am doing ten times. So therefore they are envious. So if an ordinary man like me can do ten times, you are Americans-twenty times, then you are successful.

Devotee (1): If we can do twenty times, it's only because you gave us the energy.

Prabhupada: Yes. My blessings are there, you do it, try. Just like Guru Maharaja gave blessings to everyone, but if they do not try, if they remain Kunja Babu, then they'll remain Kunja Babu, what can be done? If he's satisfied only one building in Mayapur and two buildings in Vrndavana, that is his only ambition. The ambition is poor.

Syamasundara: Just like Tusta Krsna and his wife, they hitchhiked all the way to Australia.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Syamasundara: They landed by ship in northern Australia, Perth, where our plane first landed that night.

Prabhupada: He is very energetic.

Syamasundara: And they hitchhiked across Australia, one thousand five hundred miles through the desert.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Syamasundara: He said sometimes a car would not come by for many hours, and they would be standing in the hot sun, no trees, anything.

Prabhupada: Oh, desert, big desert.

Syamasundara: A huge desert, they practically made their way across.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Devotee (1): He said aborigines live there.

Prabhupada: Oh, they may attack.

Syamasundara: Kangaroos, they saw some kangaroos. Those animals that jump.

Prabhupada: They live in the desert, the kangaroos?

Syamasundara: Yes, semi-desert.

Devotee (4): There are many strange animals in Australia.

Prabhupada: Predators?

Devotee (4): Just strange. The marsupials.

Syamasundara: Those animals that bear their young in a pouch.

Devotee (4): The pouch here, kangaroo.

Prabhupada: That is kangaroo.

Devotee (1): And platypuses.

Devotee (4): And platypus, the platypus animal.

Syamasundara: Half bird, half...

Devotee (4): Half snake.

Syamasundara: Under water.

Devotee (4): Half beaver?

Prabhupada: Hm, snake? Snake?

Devotee (1): Yeah, it's part... It has some snake features, it has webbed feet, it has a duck like a beaver, a body like a...

Devotee (4): A tail like a beaver.

Syamasundara: A bill like a duck.

Devotee (1): And a tail like a beaver, and a body like a wolverine or something.

Prabhupada: So the Vedic literature says 8,400,000.

Devotee (1): This is all in one.

Prabhupada: This is Krsna's mercy. If somebody is thinking, "If I had like this, like that, like that, like that." "All right you will have all." (laughter) Just like Hiranyakasipu wanted to save himself in this way, that... "Yes, all are granted," but still he had to die. All granted. So we are trying to take facilities from Krsna beginning from "O God, give us our daily bread, then give me motorcar, then give me airplane, then give me this, give me that." "Take all, but you will never be happy unless you surrender to Me. You take all." This is going on. The modern civilization, they are wanting, "We may have this, we may have that, we may have this, we may have that." "Yes, you take all. But don't talk of happiness, please." That is the only problem. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66], if you want this. Otherwise, you take whatever you like.

Syamasundara: The devotees, they don't care. They'll go across the desert hitchhiking, but Krsna gives them happiness. They're happy.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is happiness. They are going for Krsna, that is happiness. They forget the trouble.

Syamasundara: Yes. Today he's gone again. (break)

Prabhupada: Don't be doubtful about this at least. You may do or not do, but at least you be convinced that this is the nicest thing we have got. And there is no comparison.

Syamasundara: And the more we experience it, the more we become convinced.

Prabhupada: Yes.