May 4, 1972, Mexico
Prabhupada: How many forms of fishes are there within the ocean? (indistinct) Nine hundred thousands of different forms of aquatics. Nine hundred thousands. Jalaja nava-laksani. Jalaja means species of living beings born in the water. There are nine hundred thousand. How many you have got experience in your biology?
Martin: I studied one.
Martin: I studied one.
Prabhupada: One only?
Martin: One. (laughs) I, I concentrated on one. I learned of some of the (indistinct), (loud crack of thunder in background) maybe a thousand.
Prabhupada: Nine hundred thousand, exact number. (aside:) Bring that socket.
Devotee: Oh, this? (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. And 2,000,000 of leaves and plants, botany, botanical. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati, krmayo rudra-sankhyakah. Insects, there are 1,100,000 forms. (Sanskrit) Then (Sanskrit). From insect, they become flies and birds. (Sanskrit) One million. Then from birds, the beasts come, four-legged. (Sanskrit). Three million species of beasts. Then from beasts, the human form comes—either from monkey or from lion or from cows. Out of these three, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are coming through rajo-guna, their last birth before human form of birth is lion. And those who are coming in the form ignorance, Darwin's father-in-law, (laughs) monkey, and ignorance. And those who are coming in goodness, their last form of birth is cow. So this is our scientific information from the Vedas. We haven't got to make research. Everything is there. That is Vedic knowledge. They have got already everything written there. The astronomy, everything is written there; simply you have to calculate. Astrology, we say simply mathematical calculation. If the moon is in this position and the other stars is in this position, the effect will be like this and the result will be like this. Like that. So you haven't got to make search or research. It is already there. Similarly, this Darwin's theory is there in two lines. (Sanskrit) Asati, asati means eighty. Catura means four, eighty and four laksani, lakhs, 400,000. Eighty-four hundred thousand, that means eighty million, four hundred thousand. (Sanskrit) Jiva means living entity; jati means species. Jiva-jatisu, brahmadbhih. The living entity is wandering or transmigrating from aquatics to trees, plants, then insect, then birds, then beasts. In this way the last is human form of life. Brahmadbhih, brahmadbhih, wandering. (Sanskrit), last he is getting (Sanskrit), by the evolution of birth. Now this form is for understanding Govinda, God. The other forms, they cannot. So if in this form the living entity does not contact Govinda... Contacting Govinda means surrendering unto Govinda. As Krsna says, "Surrender unto Me.'' Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. So after many, many, many millions of births, when one is actually in full knowledge, he surrenders to Krsna. That is perfection. Then he goes back to home, back to Godhead. That is our program, Krsna consciousness.
Martin: So there's something higher than human form?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Demigods. (Sanskrit) Generally three divisions: demigods, human beings and other than human beings.
Martin: Primitive cavemen?
Martin: Primitive cavemen?
Prabhupada: No, not only cavemen: the animals, birds, beasts, other than.
Martin: Oh, I see. (more thunder)
Prabhupada: But this human form of life is better than demigods' life because demigods, they are materially very opulent. Just like when the Americans came in India, they thought, "Demigods.'' Is it not?
Martin: The Indians thought. Hm.
Prabhupada: Because they're better looking, good looking, intelligent, powerful. Similarly, just like this controller or director of this rain department is Indra. This thundering, it is under his direction this thundering is going on. He throws the thunderbolts and cracks the mountain, and then we get chunks. That is his business. As in government there are different departments, similarly, God has got different departments, and the in-charge of that department is demigod. Creation, that's Brahma; sustenance or maintenance, Himself, Visnu; and dissolution, Lord Siva.
Martin: How is human life better than that?
Martin: How is the human life better than the demigod?
Prabhupada: Better than in this way, that just like here also on this planet, those who are richer section, they particularly do not care to know what is this Krsna consciousness. They're proud, puffed-up for material opulence. "Ah, what is this Krsna consciousness. Let us enjoy drink.'' That is their position. So it is a curse for them. Their richness is a curse for them, that they cannot adore such a nice movement. The middle class section, they are being attracted. Similarly, the demigods, they have got very, very high standard of life, duration of life, beauty, opulence, facilities, so generally they forget. Not forget; they are servant. Just like government servant does not mean a devotee. So they are devotee, officially devotee. They, they offer their obeisances to Krsna. (Sanskrit), worship by Lord Siva or Brahma, but their devotion is conditional because they're posted in such high post, so they may remain in their post. In this way, exchange. But in the human society you'll find devotees, there is no question of exchange; it is simply love. (more thunder)
Martin: These demigods are what we call angels?
Devotee: So how does science fit in with all of this?
Prabhupada: Hm? Let him speak.
Martin: This is why I'm here. I know science...
Prabhupada: Hm? He can...
Martin: I, I know a bit of where it's going, and I don't find it compelling, fulfilling.
Martin: It's just the empty... (indistinct) one half of the world.
Prabhupada: Scientist business is he can become a great devotee. Just like...
idam hi pumsas tapasah srutasya va
svistasya suktasya ca buddhi-dattayoh
avicyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupito
(aside:) You sit down. Why you don't sit down like... Yad-uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam. Idam hi pumsas, svistasya, tapa, suktasya tapasah. If you are scientist, scientist means you are learned, learned scholar, you know or you've heard from the books so many things. So your duty will be that whatever you have learned, you try to explain all these scientific research work as qualification of the Supreme Lord. Any scientific law, just like law of gravity... (aside:) You are following?
Devotee: Si, si. (Yes, yes.)
Prabhupada: Law of gravity... The big, big planets are floating in the air. Now you can explain how it is it's floating. The hint is already there in the Bhagavad-gita, that He enters. Vistabhya idam krtsnam ekamsena sthito jagat [Bg. 10.42], (Sanskrit) that "I enter into this universe, and by My prowess they are floating.'' These hints are there. Now you are a scientist; if you are actually devotee, then you try to explain from your scientific explanation that this floating is possible because God has entered within it. That is your duty. And because you're scientist, your explanation from the scientific point of view, how God has entered, how He is acting, that will be very well received by the public. So that will be great service. Actually that is the fact. It is already stated there that "I enter.'' We can understand. Yes, we believe. I'll explain. Just like that balloon. What is that gas? Hydrogen gas?
Martin: Helium gas.
Prabhupada: Helium gas. So that helium gas has entered within the balloon and it is floating. (laughter) So if the helium gas can float, cannot God float? If helium gas has so much power, God is less than helium gas or He is more than helium gas? So what is the difficulty to understand? God says, "I enter.'' So similarly, the helium gas enters and it makes possible that it floats. So what is the difficulty to understand? I see in my eyes. So He can become big helium gas. Just like Krsna says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: [Bg. 7.8] "I am the taste of the water.'' Water is important. We are drinking water for the taste. That taste is Krsna. Similarly, if you explain this law of gravitation, which we have discovered, is Krsna, prove it by your scientific knowledge, that will be your service. Actually that is a fact. That is the fact. But you have to explain, just like I have given you this example. This is scientific. As you can float a balloon by creating helium gas, so there must be some gas like that; Krsna enters into each and every planet or universe and it floats, that's all. They, not only the planets are floating, the universes are also floating. So you accept this theory or not? If not, clearly explain.
Martin: I, I, I cannot reject it.
Martin: Because you know more about it than I do.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. That should be the attitude. That is the way of understanding. Upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah. Those who are Tattva-darsih, those who have seen the truth, we have to take knowledge from them. That is the direction in the Bhagavad-gita, not from the third-class men. One who has seen, one who has known, you have to take knowledge from him, tattva-darsih. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. You have to understand by surrendering, by rendering service and by question, three things. You cannot question simply. There must be service and surrender; then question will be nice. And if all of a sudden you come and question, that answer will not be sufficient. So I am drinking this water because there is taste. At this time, if you can give me some other juice, I'll not like. I'll like to take, drink water, because there is particular taste that will satisfy my thirst. That thirst-quenching taste is Krsna. So immediately you can remember Krsna, "Here is Krsna.'' This is Krsna consciousness. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. There is no need of seeing Krsna. You can perceive Krsna while drinking water if you have got such power of perception. And the hints are already there in the Bhagavad-gita. You can argue, "Where is Krsna? I do not see Krsna. How can I...'' Well, Krsna says, "All right, you try to realize Me in this way. While you drink water you know that taste is Myself.'' So you can see or perceive Krsna by drinking water. So everyone is drinking water. Who cannot perceive Krsna? What is the difficulty? Krsna's giving hints, "Worship Me like that.'' And God, at the present moment, God can be seen eye-to-eye, but He can be perceived anumananda(?). What is that word? Parasya...?
Prabhupada: (Sanskrit) So at the present moment we can understand God by anubhava(?): "Here is God.'' The hint is given by God that raso 'ham apsu kaunteya, that "I am the taste of water.'' You cannot create this taste. You can make water, hydrogen-oxygen mixing, but you cannot create the taste so that that water may be taken. Is that possible?
Martin: It is possible to make water, and I rely on you to say that it is not possible to make the taste.
Prabhupada: That... Just like from perspiration we are also creating water, but nobody is going to drink that water. Nobody is coming to lick my body, "Here is water.'' (laughter) That is not possible.
Devotee: Even if they mix hydrogen and oxygen to get water, still, where does the hydrogen and oxygen come from?
Prabhupada: Yes. Wherefrom the chemical comes? Such vast sea water, so where you got so much chemical? Then the next question, that Who supplies the chemicals?
Martin: I've been there before. They all come down the same. They all come to the same place. You said that it is possible to see God eye-to-eye.
Martin: How can this be done?
Prabhupada: You have to be qualified.
Martin: How can you be qualified?
Prabhupada: This is the process going on in this Krsna consciousness movement. They become devotee, follow the rules and regulations, the prescribed method, you'll see God. You'll see constantly, twenty-four hours. Santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti, premanjana cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38]. If you have developed such devotion and love for God, then you will see always God. Just like if you have got a child whom you very much love, you'll see the child always in front of you, always. It is due to love. Similarly, you have to develop love for Krsna and you'll see Him. He can be seen by love, not by your method. He is not under any method, but He is under love. So you have to develop love and then you'll see. (aside:) There is no flavor. Is it any flavor?
Martin: It's very faint.
Devotee: Mexican incense.
Devotee: Christian incense.
Prabhupada: So all science of God is described in Bhagavad-gita.
Devotee: This morning you said that Krsna is the original scientist because..., because He is a scientist then we can have our science.
Prabhupada: Yes. The, ah... Do you accept it He is the original scientist?
Martin: I can accept the fact that Krsna, being God, created everything which science studies now.
Prabhupada: Yes, right. That's right. That is the fact. That is the fact. So despite my becoming a scientist, I am a subordinate scientist. Our, my scientific research is going on under the direction of Krsna. Because the experiment which you are making in the laboratory, the ingredients, they are produced from Krsna. The mind with which you are working, that is produced by Krsna. The direction you are receiving from Krsna. Therefore when you prepare something, that is Krsna's production. Krsna is indirect cause and you are direct cause. The other day while coming on the plane you told me that they are trying to make copy of the brain of...
Prabhupada: Einstein. So still, if you can copy, even if you can copy, you are not the original scientist, because that brain of Einstein is already created. So original creation is God's. So you can imitate. So you are imitator scientist. Is it not?
Martin: It's true.
Prabhupada: Who has created the brain of Professor Einstein? You have not created. You are trying to make a xerox copy, that's all. But the original is already there. Now who has created the original brain? Then you have to go to God. But you have not created. It is not my men(?). If man could create such brain, then, "Ah, never mind, the professor has died. We create another person like.'' That you cannot. So even if you are able to imitate, you are not the supreme scientist. First of all it is doubtful. So accepting that you will be able to copy or xerox copy of Einstein's brain, that does not give you the credit. The credit is already there, God's credit. At least we shall not give you any credit. We shall speak that the original brain is created by God. You cannot create. If you had the power to create, then there was no necessity of copying. You could create better brain. That you haven't got. You are trying to take xerox copy from that brain. Just like big, big aeroplanes are flying, but their, the shape is made after the bird. The original shape bird is created by God. He has got the same type of machine even within an insect, small insect flying. You can create a small aeroplane like that. That is not possible. Then what is your credit? Here is God's credit, a small fly, near water. You create it. You see? You can create a big, but you cannot a small. Therefore you are incapable. But God can create the biggest and the smallest. Anor aniyan mahato mahiyan. He can create the greater than the greatest and the smaller than the smallest.
Devotee: A big airplane cannot reproduce another airplane.
Prabhupada: You cannot create male aeroplane and female aeroplane so that you haven't got to manufacture a third one. The third one is produced. Why third one? Millions. And then from millions, another millions, another million. That is God's creation. That means He has got different energies. He pushes on one button of one energy and the production goes on. (Sanskrit) These are the Vedic explanation. His energies are so subtle. Just like nowadays electronic television button, you press, and thousands and thousands of miles away something is happening, you see. So if it is materially possible, it is nothing but exhibition of the energy of the human brain. So if human brain can exhibit such wonderful activities, how much God can do? He has got better brain, that's all, or the best brain. If you have got brain, that's all right, but He has got the best brain, param. Therefore He is called parampurusa, paramesvara. Parama means the best, the supreme. God is like you, like me. He has got also two hands, two legs, Krsna. But His brain is different. Just like you are scientist; your brain is better than me, or his brain is better than you, and his brain is better than him. In this way you go on searching. When you find the brain which is no more better, that is God. That is God. As you are finding out better brain than you, he is better than his, he better than this—you go on researching—when you find out some brain which surpasses everyone and nobody surpasses Him, that is God. This is our definition of God. How can I deny it? We don't accept blindly anyone as God, incarnation of God. We want to see who has got the best brain, who has got the best opulence, who has got the best beauty, who has got the best knowledge, who has got the best friend. All combined together, if we find in some person, that is God. That we have found in Krsna; therefore He is God.
Martin: But how can I know with my inferior brain...
Martin: ...who has the best brain?
Prabhupada: That you can understand. Just like you are a scientist friend. You can do something which I cannot do. That much I must accept that you have got better brain. What is the difficulty?
Martin: But... How can I know?
Prabhupada: You can know directly that "He is doing better than me.'' What is the difficulty? I can see... Just like all my disciples, they are following me. Why? Because they understand that "Our spiritual master explains about God better than us.'' Therefore they are surrendering. I am not bribing them. They are not fools. They have got very nice brain to act. So they accept me as the spiritual master brain because they understand it that "He can explain about God better than me.'' Where is the difficulty? These, all my disciples, surrenders unto me because they have found in me a better brain in explaining what is God. Direct perception. There is no question of indirect understanding. It is direct understanding. And the Vedas also advises that "Go to a better man,'' srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12], "one who heard better and wise from the Vedic knowledge, and brahma, as a result of it he has become fully devoted to Krsna,'' brahma-nistham. These are the qualifications of spiritual master. His knowledge is perfect according to the Vedic injunction, and by having that knowledge he has become a perfect devotee of the Lord. These two things are to be seen. Then he is a spiritual master.
Martin: But there are many spiritual masters in the world. Each says...
Prabhupada: Each says, but you have to judge. Just like when you go to purchase two shillings' worth goods, you go to different stores. Everyone says, "Oh, my thing is very nice.'' But you have to judge which one is best. That depends on you. If you are a fool, then somebody will cheat you. And if you are not a fool, then you will know... Just like these rascals, they call themselves God. Such a fool can cheat another fool only. But one who knows what is God, he'll not accept it. One who knows Krsna, he'll not accept him as God. He'll immediately compare, "What you have done like Krsna or better than Krsna that I shall accept you God? We have already our God, Krsna. Now you prove that you are better than Krsna or equal to Krsna.'' That he cannot, so why I shall accept him as God? Why shall I accept him as spiritual master? That depends on your intelligence. If you are less intelligent, then you'll be cheated by this false God. So everyone has got intelligence, individuality, power of understanding, so you should try to use them, and then you can understand.
Devotee: I'd like to ask what do the scientists explain is the origin of life? Do they have any explanation how life is caused?
Martin: Oh, scientists concern themselves with the process, not the reason. Right now, scientists are spending a tremendous amount of time duplicating this process, trying to be able to produce life in the laboratory. This now, they are saying that thus they will be able to say that this is how life started at the beginning of the world. It does not take... Scientists don't concern themselves with why life started, just how, what method.
Devotee: What do they think, how it started?
Martin: Oh, they think life started by the effect of the atmosphere...
Prabhupada: Then the atmosphere is the cause. Then next question is, Who created the atmosphere? [break]
Martin: This doesn't... This is why I feel science... I don't feel...
Prabhupada: They have not found out the ultimate cause. They take a process which is going in the middle way; therefore their science is imperfect. But our science is perfect. We have found out the ultimate cause.
The cause of all causes. Therefore our science is perfect. We have found out the cause of all causes. But the material scientists, they simply can look to the process, how it is working. Just like a child sees the machine, how it is working, but he cannot know who has produced that machine. Therefore we see the child scientist. (laughter) Not better scientist.
Devotee: What is the definition of science?
Prabhupada: Perfect knowledge.
Devotee: Perfect knowledge.
Prabhupada: Is it not?
Martin: I don't know.
Prabhupada: You do not know what is the meaning of science?
Martin: No, I don't.
Prabhupada: Then why you call science? How do you call "This is scientific"?
Martin: I can only give you my definition of science. Science is that endeavor of human beings by which they attempt to find out why things happen and how they happen.
Prabhupada: That means perfect knowledge. Ah, I am seeing that this rose flower is growing, but I do not know how it is growing. If I know perfectly how it is growing, that is science. We know that, how it is growing. Bijam mam sarva-bhutanam [Bg. 7.10]. The seed of this rose tree is Krsna. All kinds of seeds are Krsna. Therefore, from one seed you find a tree is growing from which a perfect rose of yellow color is coming. And another tree, a perfect rose of red color is coming or variety of color is coming. The seed is different. Otherwise the earth is the one, the water is the one, but because the seed is different, therefore different plants are coming and different results are coming. But the seeds are Krsna. This is our observation. You cannot create the seed. You cannot create in your laboratory the seed of... What is that tree?
Devotee: Banyan? Banyan tree?
Prabhupada: Banyan tree. There is small seed, very small. It contains the potency of a big banyan tree. You cannot create such seed. You create something, just like you are creating vitamin tablets. You are proposing that "No more eating required. You simply take some vitamin tablet.'' Is it not? Similarly, you create some tablet and sow it in the earth and big banyan tree comes. Then I will accept you. (laughter)
Martin: You, you say that... [break] ...who created this knowledge that this flower and the banyan tree is Krsna. What place in the divine scheme do such great names as Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad have?
Prabhupada: Yes. Buddha, we accept him as incarnation, as expansion of Krsna. He's Krsna working as Buddha, Lord Buddha. Kesava dhrta buddha sarira. He has accepted body of Buddha. That is our conception of Lord Buddha.
Martin: And Jesus Christ and Muhammad?
Martin: They were all the reincarnation of Krsna?
Martin: I see.
Prabhupada: Yad yad vibhuti. Any, anyone who is showing some extraordinary power, he is supposed to be incarnation of Krsna's energy. Yad yad vibhutimat sattvam mama tejo 'msa-sambhavam. The brilliant energy. He represents the brilliant energy of Krsna. And the energy is not different from the energetic. (aside:) Hm. What is that?
Devotee: I just said that this is a very good sound track of your speaking—this chanting and...
Martin: Can a true devotee come face-to-face with God through the teachings of Buddha, the teachings of Christ?
Prabhupada: Yes. Teachings of Christ, teaching of Buddha, they are meant for a particular type of men. Generally it is meant for everyone, but specifically for a particular type of men. Just like Lord Buddha, he preached ahimsa. They were a particular type of men. Lord Jesus Christ also preached to a particular type of men. "Thou shall not kill.'' That means they were killing. Is it not? If I say, "Thou shall not steal,'' that means you are thief, you are stealing. So a kind of preaching among the thieves and a kind of teaching among the philosophers must be different. That is the difference. Lord Buddha is Krsna, Lord Jesus Christ was Krsna incarnation, but they were preaching to a different type of people. Therefore you'll find difference of Lord Jesus Christ teaching, Buddha's teaching, Krsna's teaching. Krsna's teaching also is there, which is also Buddha's teaching. But more than that, because the persons amongst whom He was teaching, they were far, far elevated than the thieves and the rogues. That is the difference. Just like I am pushing on this Krsna consciousness movement, I am doing so many things which sometimes my Godbrothers out of envy criticize. But I know what is the circumstances how to do it. They do not know it. I know my business. So that is their fault. Their own buddhi business, then simply criticize "How he is acting.'' Find out some fault. Just like Lord Buddha was criticized by the Vedic brahmanas, "Oh, you are stopping animal sacrifice? It is already in the Vedas. Because it is sacrifice, the animal is also sacrificed, so how you can stop animal sacrifice?'' But Lord Buddha, nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. Sruti-jatam. In the Vedas there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, but he began to deride. So his business was to deride the Vedic principles, that "I do not care for these Vedas.'' Therefore Buddha's religion was not accepted in India. He criticized. He criticized the Vedic principles. In the Vedic principles there is recommendation for animal sacrifice, and he criticized, "This is not good. Don't do this.'' Therefore it is criticism. Vedic injunction should be accepted as it is. You cannot criticize. Then there is no Vedic authority. So therefore he defied Vedic authorities. As such, he was not accepted, strictly followers of the Vedas. But he has got a different purpose. The ordinary man cannot understand. But one who is devotee, he knows that why he has done this. Therefore they offer their obeisances, kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare. A devotee does not accept the philosophy of Buddha but accepts him as incarnation of Lord Krsna and offers obeisances. This is our position. We offer obeisances to Lord Buddha as incarnation of Krsna, kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare. This is our study of knowledge.
Devotee: What class of men did Lord Caitanya teach about?
Prabhupada: Those who accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Devotee: He preached among the devotees.
Prabhupada: His preaching begins from surrendering to Krsna. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Krsna upadesa is that Krsna's asking everyone to surrender unto Him. So one who has surrendered unto Krsna, he can understand Lord Caitanya's teaching. Jivera svarupa haya nityera krsna-dasa [Cc. Madhya 20.108]. He begins His teachings from the point when one accepts that "I am eternal servant of Krsna."
Martin: This chanting process is directed to everyone, or just those who...
Prabhupada: No, everyone. By chanting he'll come to this point. When his heart will be cleansed, then he will come to this point to surrender to Krsna. We initiate a person, not that he is already on that standard, but we are educating him by the process, how to come to that standard.
Devotee: Beginning when one takes sannyasa?
Devotee: Beginning when one takes sannyasa initiation? It doesn't necessarily mean he's a controller of senses, is that right? Gradually he may rise up to...
Prabhupada: Yes. No. A sannyasi is already qualified. Then (indistinct). The first beginning is chanting. If he follows the regulative principles and chants sixteen rounds, that is his qualification. And by that process, he'll come to the point of full surrender. Then we give him the second initiation. And when he's actually engaged in the service of the Lord heart and soul, then we give him sannyasa.
Devotee: Do you have any more questions?
Martin: No, no. You've more than filled my cup.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Martin: You have filled my cup, more than filled.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. [break]
Devotee: I have one question I wanted to ask you. In Hawaii you said that the ocean was necessary in order to make the rain fall on the land, as a reservoir for fresh water, and that the salt was there to preserve the water from becoming bad.
Devotee: So such huge body of water is required?
Devotee: The oceans cover how much of the earth?
Devotee: Three-fifths of the earth's surface is ocean water. So that much is required to water two-fifths land?
Prabhupada: No. The ocean is gradually... Water is required. Water is required. In our India, if somebody spends extravagantly, so it is compared with water: "Oh, you are spending like water.'' (end)
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