701219SB.SUR
Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.34-39

Surat, December 19, 1970
Prabhupada: There are so many ladies.
Guest (1): And there are so many English devotees.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Guest (1): English devotees.
Prabhupada: That's all right. (Hindi) So the constables of Yamaraja, they are describing the bodily features of the Visnuduta. You can have an idea of the Visnuloka, or Vaikunthaloka. From this study, we have to understand that there is a spiritual sky, and that is far, far extensive than the material sky. You cannot even measure the sky covered by one universe, and there are innumerable universes. That is... All together, that is one-fourth of the whole sky. It is a rough estimate only, according to the Vedic scripture. And the three-fourths of the sky is spiritual sky. The population in the spiritual sky is far, far greater than the material sky. Only a few living entities who are rebelled... Just like the population in the prison house is insignificant compared to the whole population of the state, similarly, the living entities who are here in this material world, they are very insignificant. Including all the universes, all the planets together, they are an insignificant portion of the whole living entities. Ananta. Hy anantaya kalpate. The living entities, there is no counting, ananta, unlimited number of living entities. Therefore in the Vedas the living entities are plural, but God is one. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13).
sarve ca nutna-vayasah
sarve caru-caturbhujah
dhanur-nisangasi-gada-
sankha-cakrambuja-sriyah
[SB 6.1.34]
This is another description of the feature. Sarve ca nutna-vayasah. In the Vaikunthaloka, the inhabitants are always young, just like Krsna or Visnu is always young. There is no old age. Old age is here in this material world because this material body becomes old, not the spirit soul. Spirit soul is always fresh. Nityah sasvato 'yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. So they are describing that "You are... You look all just very young." And sarve caru-caturbhujah: "And you are beautifully embodied with four hands." Sarve caru-caturbhujah. (aside:) What is that? Dhanur-nisangasi-gada-sankha-cakrambuja-sriyah: "And exactly like Visnu, you have got dhanur, bows; and sankha, conchshell; cakra, disc; gada, club; and ambuja, padma, lotus flower. Everyone." That means everyone in the Vaikunthaloka, they are exactly like the bodily feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana. This is called sarupya-mukti. There are five kinds of liberation. This liberation, to have the same bodily feature like Narayana, is called sarupya, "the form exactly like Visnu." Sarupya-mukti. There are five kinds of liberations: sayujya, salokya, sarupya, sarsti, samipya [Cc. Madhya 6.266].
So the Mayavadi philosophers, they prefer sayujya, to merge into the existence of impersonal existence. A living entity can live, can remain in the Brahman effulgence as a particle of shining. Just like there are many molecular particles in the sunshine, similarly, the living entities also can cluster together and live as a small particle of spiritual shining, and that is called brahma-sayujya-mukti. But that kind of existence is subjected to fall down again.
ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas
tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah
aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah
patanty adho...
[SB 10.2.32]
Because the living entities, they want varieties of enjoyment, but in that impersonal existence there is no varieties of enjoyment, therefore, when they desire varieties of enjoyment, they have come to this material world. So even they merge into the effulgence of brahmajyoti, there is cause; there is chance of falling. Not all. Some of them may go to the planets, but there is chance.
sarve ca nutna-vayasah
sarve caru-caturbhujah
dhanur-nisangasi-gada-
sankha-cakrambuja-sriyah
"You are so brilliant that immediately on your appearance the darkness is dissipated. Immediately." They are so much, I mean to say, glowing, their body, in Vaikuntha. Therefore in the Upanisad it is said that in the Vaikunthaloka, in the spiritual sky, there is no need of sun, moon. The planets and the bodily effulgence of the inhabitants, they are all glowing. So on account of everything glowing in the spiritual world, there is no necessity of sunshine or moonshine or electricity. They are self-effulgent.
"You are so brilliant, you appear to be very enlightened and coming from some planets." Because they had no exactly idea what kind of planet they live. They are simply suggesting that "You must be coming from some very exalted planet. But why you are interfering with our business?"
Kim artham dharma-palasya. Dharma-pala. Yamaraja's another name is Dharmaraja or Dharmapala. He is one of the authorities. There are twelve authorities mentioned in the sastras. Brahma is one authority, Lord Siva is one authority, and Narada is one authority. Then Manu is one authority, Prahlada Maharaja is authority, Bali Maharaja is authority, Sukadeva Gosvami is authority. So similarly, Yamaraja is also authority. They are authority who know exactly what is God, or Krsna, and they can direct. Therefore sastra says you have to follow the authority. Otherwise it is not possible. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. You cannot understand the path of religion by your mental speculation. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma, religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. No ordinary man can enact dharma. Therefore there is dharma-viparya. Real dharma, actual dharma, is to abide by the words of the Supreme Lord. That is dharma. Just like Krsna says, mam ekam saranam. That is dharma, simply to surrender unto Krsna. Otherwise it is not dharma. Man-made dharma is no dharma. That is called kaitava-dharma, cheating dharma. You cannot manufacture religion. But nowadays it has become fashion. Everyone is manufacturing his own religion. Therefore there is dharma-viparya. So one should know that dharma means the laws given by God. That is dharma. And such dharma, or the path of dharma, is strictly followed by these mahajanas. Just like Brahma, Lord Siva, Narada, Manu, Kapila, Kapiladeva, Kapiladeva who enunciated sankhya philosophy... Svayambhur naradah sambhuh kumarah kapilo manuh, prahlado bhismah [SB 6.3.20]. Bhismadeva is also authority. You know Bhismadeva, the grandfather of the Pandavas. He is also authority. Prahlada, Bhisma... Bali Maharaja is also authority. So we have to follow these authorities. Otherwise there is no possibility of understanding what is religion, what is God. This... Our, this sampradaya, Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya, they are following the authorities of Lord Brahma and Narada. Similarly, there is another sampradaya, Rudra-sampradaya. Rudra-sampradaya. And there is another sampradaya coming from Laksmiji, Sri-sampradaya, Ramanuja. So we have to accept religious principles from the leaders of the sampradayas. Otherwise it is useless. Sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te viphala matah: "If you do not accept mantra initiation from the disciplic succession of the sampradaya, then it will be useless." Sampradaya-vihina ye. So people are manufacturing religion without any reference to these authorities.
So diso vitimiralokah kurvantah svena tejasa. Svena: "By your own effulgence you are dissipating the darkness, all directions. You are so bright, brilliant." Kim artham dharma-palasya: "Oh, we can understand that you are not ordinary living entities. You are coming from some exalted planet. What business you have got to interfere with our business?" Dharma-palasya.
sri-suka uvaca
ity ukte yamadutais te
vasudevokta-karinah
tan pratyucuh prahasyedam
megha-nirhradaya gira
When they were addressed by the assistants of Yamaraja, then the representative of Vasudeva, vasudevokta-karinah, those who are followers of the order of Vasudeva... Representative... (aside:) Again you have to stand, please. Tan pratyucuh prahasyedam megha-nirhradaya gira. Now, the Visnuduta, they began to speak in a very grave language, just like resounding the cloud. (commentary:) Kim anya-lokasyanyasya prakasa yat tu tatha bhuta disah kurvantah bhavatam anusitam yam ity ahuh kim artham ity aha (?). Indirectly, the Yamadutas said that "You are so exalted, so it is not very good for you to interfere with our business." They politely submitted. And... (commentary:) Ato dandyadandya-jnana-sunya iti saura evaksnod dhiya dharma-rajasya kinkara ity anvitam vadanti visayena prahasya tan pratyucuh (?).
Now, Sridhara Swami is commenting why they were smiling, these Visnudutas, because the Yamadutas were criticizing, "Why you are interfering?" The Yamadutas did not know that whatever action is taken by the representative of Visnu, they are not, I mean to say, unnecessarily interference. They are actual fact. Therefore they are smiling, that "These Yamadutas, without knowing our position, they are trying to criticize us." So they were smiling. Prahasya, prahasya. Just like if a child speaks something to a learned man, he smiles. So Visnuduta were smiling, hearing the Yamadutas. Meghasya eva nirhrada hanir yasya prayatah:(?) "They began to speak in grave voice, as if the thundering cloud."
"You are claiming to be representative of Dharmaraja, Yamaraja." Yamaraja is Dharmaraja. So Visnuduta knows that they are representative. So he challenged. The Visnudutas challenged the Yamadutas, that "You are accusing us that we are interfering with your business which is entrusted unto you by the Dharmaraja, the maintainer of dharma. Would you kindly explain what is dharma and what is adharma?" It is very intelligent answer. Yuyam vai dharma-rajasya: "If you are actually representative."
Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that yei krsna tattva-vetta sei guru haya: [Cc. Madhya 8.128] "If anyone is representing as guru, he must know Krsna." He must know. Krsna cannot be known, but at least... Just like Krsna says, yo janati tattvatah, that... One must know Krsna in fact, tattvatah, in truth. He can become guru. Otherwise, guru is not a, so cheap post that everyone can become guru. Similarly, here is the challenge, that "If you are representative of Dharmaraja, you must explain what is dharma and what is adharma." That should be the criterion of test. Not that everyone should be accepted as religious, everyone should be accepted as guru. This ignorance of the population has created so many nonsense as representing as guru and dharma-jna. No. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta [SB 11.3.21]. The Vedic injunction says, tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam, sabde pare ca nisnatam. One is advised... First of all, who will accept a guru? Guru is not a plaything, that "I must have a guru, and I will never care to obey his orders, but because it is a fashion to keep a guru, I shall keep a guru." That kind of guru is useless, and that kind of disciple is also useless. One must seek after a guruwhen? When he is inquisitive to understand the transcendental knowledge. Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. It is not a fashion. It should be very serious. One who is very much eager to understand transcendental knowledge, sreya uttamam... Jijnasuh sreya. Sreyah and preyah. There are two kinds of paths. Preyah means immediate satisfaction or sense gratification, and preyah means spiritual happiness, er, sreyah. Sreyah means spiritual happiness. Just like children, they are interested with playing. That is preyah. Whereas, the elderly persons, they are interested to give education.
So people... What is the meaning of this preaching? Why we are taking interest in preaching Krsna consciousness? Because the people in general, they are interested in preyah, for their sense gratification, immediate sense gratification. But that is not good for them. Bhagavata says, nunam pramattah kurute vikarma yad indriya-pritaya aprnoti: [SB 5.5.4] "Simply for sense gratification, they are committing so many sinful activities. It is like, just like madman." A madman does not know what he is doing. Similarly, the materialistic persons, they are so much engrossed and become maddened to commit everything simply for sense gratification. Indriya-priti. So Rsabhadeva says, "It is not good. It is very risky life." If we indulge in sense gratification, Krsna will give us facilities for sense gratification. Just like a monkey. A monkey has very good facility for sex life. A monkey, every monkey has got at least three dozen wives. Perhaps you know it. So he has been given the facility for sense gratification: "All right." But what is his position? He is a monkey. (laughter) Therefore it is called markata-vairagya. Markata-vairagya means that a monkey is renounced. He does not dress, naked. And he lives in the forest. And he eats also fruit, vegetarian. But the nature is that he must have at least three dozen wives. You see? So the so-called sadhus or so-called vairagis, having illicit sex life very secretly, they are just like monkeys. So Rupa Gosvami has said markata-vairagya. Markata-vairagya.
So markata-vairagya is not necessary. Real vairagya. We do not indulge in so-called sannyasi or brahmacari. If one is unable, he must become a grhastha, live like a grhastha, and not that "I pose myself as a brahmacari or a sannyasi, but I have got illicit sex life secretly." This is markata-vairagya. Markata-vairagya is not wanted. Real vairagya. Real vairagya means one who can sacrifice everything for Krsna. That is vairagya. Karma-phala-tyagathat is karma-yoga. One should give up the result of his fruitive activities to Krsna. That is karma-yoga. Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah [Bg. 6.1]. Anasritah karma-phalam. One who is not desirous to enjoy the fruits of his activities, fruitive activities, anasritah karma-phalam, but does it as a matter of duty... "Krsna wants it. Krsna will be satisfied by doing this." Karyam: "It must be done." Just like Arjuna. Arjuna, for his personal interest, he was not willing to fight. But when he understood that "Krsna wants this fighting," then he took it as karyam: "It must be done. It doesn't matter whether I like it or not, but Krsna wants it. Therefore I must do it." That is called anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah, sa sannyasi. He is sannyasi. Na niragnir na cakriyah. Niragnir and akriya. Akriya means they are freed, all kinds of fruitive activities. So they are not sannyasis, they are not yogis, but a yogi is he who gives away the result of his activities to Krsna. Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah.
So he is asking... Visnuduta uvaca, yuyam vai dharma-rajasya yadi nirdesa-karinah. It is a challenge: "So you are claiming that you are representative of Dharmaraja. So we want to know from you what is dharma." Just like yesterday some gentleman came. He said that he has performed yoga, and he has become Narayana. Was not? Was not he speaking?
Guest: He has not come in there. He is not God.
Prabhupada: Oh. So naturally... Just like somebody says that "I am God. I have become God by mystic yoga." So one should challenge him, "What kind of God you are? Whenever there is a toothache, you go to the doctor immediately. And you are God?" So I have seen. I have seen one man in America. He had some disciples, some. And he was claiming everyone is God, he is God. And one day he was suffering from toothache. So I asked him, "What kind of God you are, that you are so much painful, suffering from toothache?" And actually, one should challenge these... And they are, practically, another kind of lunatic, who claim that "I am God." Similarly, this challenge is given by the Visnudutas to the Yamadutas, that "You are representative of Dharmaraja. Now explain what is dharma and what is adharma." bruta dharmasya nas tattvam yac ca adharmasya laksanam. Tattva, laksanam: the symptoms of adharma, and the truth of dharma.
"Now explain who is subjected to the punishment of Yamaraja. You have come here to take away this Ajamila to the court of Yamaraja. But first of all explain who is actually subjected to go to the court of Yamaraja for being punished." This is the question, and we shall discuss tomorrow about the answer. Hare Krsna. [break]
Yamuna: What is adhut? What is the (indistinct) adhu?
Prabhupada: Dut? Avadhuta. Paramahamsa. Paramahamsa stage, the highest stage of perfection... They are not under any rules and regulations, paramahamsa.
Yamuna: How does such a person engage?
Prabhupada: That's a long history. You'll find in the Bhagavad-gita, sthita-prajnasya. Sthita-prajna. So there are many symptoms. On the whole, avadhuta or paramahamsa is not subjected to any rules and regulations. They are so elevated. That is not to be imitated. That is a post, position, very exalted, perfectional stage, spiritual advancement. So if you want to know the symptoms, that is in the Bhagavad-gita. There is a list. But one thing you can simply know, a paramahamsa is a stage who is above all rules and regulations. That's all.
Hamsaduta: (indistinct) disturbed.
Prabhupada: Another nonsense. That's all.
Revatinandana: So if he continues to follow these rules and regulations...
Prabhupada: He doesn't follow. He doesn't follow. I can... I understand from his behavior.
Revatinandana: But generally they do follow in the sense that they generally...
Prabhupada: No, no. Paramahamsa...
Revatinandana: For setting example for others?
Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa, they do not come in the society because people may imitate and they fall down. Therefore they are aloof. Just like Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji Maharaja. He was aloof, bhajananandi. But one who will act as preacher or spiritual master, even if he is paramahamsa, he should live ordinary so that his disciples may follow. He comes to second stage. Paramahamsa is the first stage, and preacher is in the second stage, and neophytes are in the third stage. So the neophyte should try to come to second stage. Isvare tad-adhinesu balisesu dvisatsu. They have got discrimination: Isvara, Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tad-adhina, the devotees; balisa, innocent; and dvisat, those who are atheists, envious of... As soon as they hear that here is something going on, talking about God, they become immediately envious. We have increased the number of this kind of men. There is someone interested in God. They simply challenge. They are called dvisat. So a preacher should avoid them. But the paramahamsa, he does not avoid. So there are so many things. So we haven't got to imitate the activities of... A paramahamsa is a position, exalted position. They are very rare to be visible because they do not care to come in the society. So, and if you want to know about the paramahamsa, the sthita-prajna description in the Bhagavad-gita, I think, in the Twelfth Chapter, you can know it.
Malati: Prabhupada? Can you explain more about preyah and sreyah?
Prabhupada: Yes. Sreyah means ultimate benefit, and preyah means immediate sense gratification. That is called... That is the difference between sreyah and preyah. That's all right.
Revatinandana: So the transcendentalists are sreyah? And the karmis and others are...
Prabhupada: Yes, they are after preyah. Those who are after sreyah, they should follow the catur-asrama, varnasrama. The varnasrama, according to Vedic system, the four kinds of varnas or social caste, and four kinds of spiritual order, asramas. That is the beginning of preyah. Without this acceptance of these principles, according to Vedic principles, one is not considered as human being or civilized man. Because that is a system, if we follow that system, gradually we rise to the platform of sreyah. If anyone does not follow regulative principles, it is very hard for him to come to the standard of sreyah. But in this age, in Kali-yuga, every man is so fallen that he cannot follow any regulative principles according to the Vedic scriptures. As such, they have been accepted as sudras. Kalau sudra-sambhavah: "In this age everyone should be accepted as sudra." But then how to elevate them? For elevating them, this..., not the Vedic system is to be followed but Pancaratriki. Pancaratriki... Just like we are trying to elevate these Europeans and Americans according to Pancaratriki-vidhi. Everyone should be followed. It is not that Indians should not follow; only the others will. No. It is for everyone, Pancaratriki-vidhi. The Pancaratriki-vidhi means that if anyone has got little tendency for being elevated to the sreyah platform, he should be given chance. That is called Pancaratriki-vidhi. Just like diksa, initiation. Sudras are not given initiation. A sudra cannot be initiated. Only the brahmanas can be initiated, or dvija, or the vaisyas and the ksatriyas, the higher caste, not the sudras. But according to Pancaratriki-vidhi, even the sudras or less than the sudras, kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa [SB 2.4.18], everyone can be initiated by a bona fide representative of Krsna, not by others. That is the system.
Syamasundara: Does one become elevated by following the karma-yoga principles only?
Prabhupada: It will take a long, long time, and failure is possible. In this age, nothing is possible for the fallen people.
harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]
This is the injunction. If you want to be elevated to the perfectional stage of life, then you must chant this Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. That will help you. No other method, measures, will help you. You can try for it, but there is every chance of failure. But if you follow this path, as enunciated by the sastras and elaborated by Lord Caitanya, then there is chance. And actually we are seeing that is being done.
Revatinandana: In the First Chapter, God Realization booklet, First Chapter, Second Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the process described there where it says that the gross materialists can begin meditating on the syllable om and then try to contemplate the universal form. That is not recommended for this age, right?
Prabhupada: No, that is not for the advanced stage. Those who cannot... Just like the materialistic persons, they cannot understand why we are worshiping Deity. They are puzzled. They think, "Why these fools are taking one brass doll and worshiping as God?" They laugh. You see? They cannot understand. They are hard... What is called? It is impossible for them. Therefore they have been recommended that "You think of God, the universal form." That they like, their meditation, that universal form. They cannot understand or concentrate on this form, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28], dvi-bhuja-muralidhara, Syamasundara form. They cannot. But by this arca process we are giving chance to everyone. But for the materialistic person it is difficult. They think that they are idol worshipers. But actually, the Vaisnavas, they are not so fools that they will worship an idol. Therefore they have been recommended to concentrate on the universal form.
Revatinandana: We always encourage chanting Hare Krsna, is that so?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the only method in this age. By chanting Hare Krsna, one's... The reservoir of understanding will be cleared. And then you, he can receive, he can receive the spiritual knowledge. Without cleansing the heart it is very difficult to understand and receive spiritual knowledge. All these reformatory measuresbrahmacari, grhastha, vanaprasthathey are simply the cleansing method. And bhakti is also a cleansing method, vidhi-bhakti. But by engaging oneself in this Deity worship, he also becomes cleansed. Tat-paratve... Sarvopadhi... As he becomes enlightened or advanced in understanding that he is eternal servant of Krsna, he becomes purified. He becomes purified. Sarvopadhi means he doesn't... Sarvopadhi. He tries to eliminate his upadhi, his designation, that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that." So in this way, when you become fully eliminated of this bodily concept of life, then nirmalam. He becomes nirmala, uncontaminated. And so long this concept of life is going on that "I am this," "I am that," "I am that," he's still in the... Sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah. (aside:) Sit down properly, not like that. Sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah. Arcayam eva haraye... Even in this process, when they are engaged in Deity worship, arcayam haraye yat-pujam sraddhayehate, with great devotion doing, but na tad bhaktesu canyesu, but he has no sympathy with others or he does not know what is the position of a devotee, then sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah: "He is called material devotee, material devotee." So we have to elevate ourselves from material devotional stage to the second platform when one can understand what is a devotee, what is a nondevotee, what is God, what is atheist. These discriminations are there. And in paramahamsa stage there is no such discrimination. He sees everyone is engaged in service of the Lord. He does not envy anyone, he does not see anything, anybody. But that is another stage. We should not imitate, try to imitate, but we may know that paramahamsa is the highest stage of perfection. Just like as a preacher we have to point out... Just like I told this boy, "You sit down like this." But a paramahamsa will not say. A paramahamsa, he sees, rather: "He is all right." He sees. But we should not imitate paramahamsa. Because we are preacher, we are teacher, we should not imitate paramahamsa. We must tell the right source, right course.
Revatinandana: You must be higher than the paramahamsa stage, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: I am lower than you. I am lower than you.
Revatinandana: You are so beautiful. You are paramahamsa, but still, you are preaching to us.
Prabhupada: No, I am lower than you. I am the lowest of the all creatures. I am simply trying to execute the order of my spiritual master. That's all. That should be the business of everyone. Try best. Try your best to execute the higher order. That is the safest way of progressing. One may be in the lowest stage, but if he tries to execute the duty entrusted upon him, he is perfect. He may be in lowest stage, but because he is trying to execute the duty entrusted to him, then he is perfect. That is the consideration. [break] Back to Godhead means one must be completely pure. A slight impurity will not allow. Kingdom of God is so, that no impure person can enter. Just like in your country. You belong to USA.? There are... In every country, there are so many. Especially in your country, there are so many immigrants, immigration to check whether contamination... Even they do not allow plants to be carried. Is it not? From one port to another. Why? Checking the contamination. So if in this material world such strict checkings are there, don't you think that one who enters, one who wants to enter the kingdom of God, there is no checking? Anyone will be able to enter? It is a commonsense affair.
So kingdom of God means purity. So if there is slight impurity, he will not be allowed: "Keep aside." And it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, yesam anta-gatam papam. Yesam: "Persons who are completely being freed from the contamination of sinful activities," yesam anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam, "simply engaged in pious activities, they can become a devotee." Te dvandva-moha-nirmukta bhajante mam drdha-vratah [Bg. 7.28]. These are clear statements. And the pillars of sinful activities, that is also mentioned in the Bhagavata. Striya-suna-pana-dyuta yatra papas catur-vidhah: [SB 1.17.38] "Four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex, and intoxication, and unnecessarily killing of animals, and gambling." All the slaughterhouses of the world are being maintained unnecessarily. That is recruiting simply sins. They are eating sins, and therefore the world is in trouble. Simply committing. There is no necessity of killing animals. But here in India they are killing ten thousand cows daily, what to speak of Western countries. So people are so much addicted to sinful activities. How they can be happy? They are condemned. Only this movement, Krsna consciousness, if they take to this movement, they can be saved. Otherwise, there is no saving. They must cycle round the 8,400,000 species of life, sometimes very happy and sometimes very sad, sometimes this Brahma, sometimes the germs in the stool. This is going on, changing bodies, one after another, just like we change our dress. This will go on so long one is not completely freed from the sinful activities. Unless he enters into the kingdom of God, this cycle of birth and death will go on. Only in the spiritual sky there is no birth, death, old age, and disease. And as soon as you are out of the spiritual sky, these four things will... You may live for thousands of years. That doesn't matter, but you have to die. That is the law of material nature. You may have very good medicine, drug shop, as you have got in your country, but still, you have to suffer from diseases. You may have thousands of methods of contraceptives, but the population will increase. And as soon as there is death, and as soon as this body, the janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi... [Bg. 13.9].
In the Bhagavad-gita everything is clearly stated, that any intelligent person will put forward before him that "We have solved all our miserable conditions of life, but not these four principles." That is not possible. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi: "The sufferings of birth, the sufferings of death, the sufferings of old age, and the sufferings of disease." That cannot be solved. That can only be solved if you become Krsna conscious and go back to home, back to Godhead. That's all. Otherwise it is not possible. You may be a very great yogi. You may be very great meditator. All these things, they are very nice. They can elevate you from higher standard of life. Just like your country, USA, you have got higher standard of life than India, in one sense. But you can have thousand thousands more higher standard of life in higher planets. Thousand thousand times. As there is comparison between India and USA, or any country, similarly, in planetary system also, there is comparison. This planet is so much full of material pleasures, another planet so much, so much. But in no planet there is the guarantee that there will be no death. That is not possible. That is stated in the Bhagavad..., a-brahma-bhuvanal-lokan punar avartino 'rjuna. Even if you go to the Brahmaloka where one twelve hours means thousands of four yugas, still, there is death. So you cannot avoid this. So one who is serious... So we shall begin. What is this name of this magazine? Asia?
Syamasundara: Asia. Asia magazine.
Prabhupada: Asia magazine. It is published from London?
Guest (1): It is published from Hong Kong.
Prabhupada: Hong Kong. Oh, I see. Oh, our New Vrindaban. (laughs) Very nice. So you have published very nice pictures. So it is not... You can take it to our... This is one picture, and this is one picture. Bring. Hare Krsna. Side by side, hell and heaven. One has to select. [break] ...and the spiritual world there is only one class of men. Therefore spiritual world is called absolute. There is no disagreement. The center is Krsna, or God, and everyone is engaged in His service in love, not paid servant. Paid servant will always disagree in proportion to the money he receives. But in the Vaikuntha world there is no question of paid servant. Everyone is free. Everyone has got sufficient because, as I told you yesterday, that they are all liberated. They have got equal opulence like God. But still, they serve. That is the superiority(?). Here one serves in need, and there they serve without need. There is no need of service. Everything is there complete. Cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vrksa [Bs. 5.29]. It is said that there are kalpa-vrksa, desire tree. Desire tree means a tree from which you can get enything you desire. Then why there should be service? Here service is forced. If you don't render service, then you will starve. This nature is called avidya-karma-samjnanya trtiya saktir isyate. Karma-samjna. Here one may be king, but still he has to work, and what to speak of the poor man. Everyone has to work. This is called avidya-karma-samjna. But in the spiritual world there is no question of work.
So there are two classes of men in this material world, not in the spiritual world. The spiritual world is one. They are all cognizant that "We are eternally servant of God." Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). There are plural number living entities; they are all being provided with one cetana, the supreme cetana. So these two classes of men are known... One is known as demigods or servant of God. And another is called a servant of maya. Both of them are servants. Nobody is master. That is not possible. Only one master is God, or Krsna. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta, ekale isvara krsna: [Cc. Adi 5.142] "Only isvara, or the controller, or the master, is Krsna." Ara saba bhrtya: "And any other, either demigods or ordinary [break] living entities(?), they are all servants." Yare yaiche nacaya se taiche kare nrtya: "Now, under the direction of the Supreme Lord, everyone is dancing or working." In the common word we say that "We are dancing dogs." Because under the direction of the master... The master says "You please dance," the dog will dance. So master, because the dog knows that "He is my master. If I don't dance, then I will starve." So actually that is the position. Nobody is master here. But when you falsely claim that "I am master," that is maya. Everyone is serving, but under the impression that he is master. The head of the family, he is thinking that "I am the master," but actually he is serving each and every member of the family. The state executive officeryou may call a king or a presidenthe is thinking that "I am king," "I am president," but actually he is serving. That is his position. Unless he serves properly, immediately he will be dethroned or next time he will not be elected. So that is our position. We are all serving. Ekale isvara krsna ara saba bhrtya [Cc. Adi 5.142]. This is a fact. Only master is Krsna, and everyone is
servant. Who can challenge this statement? Is there anyone within this hall, that "I don't serve anyone"? Is there anyone? And somebody is claiming that "I am God." Just see. This is called illusion, maya. This claim is made by the illusioned living entity. Here, this material world means everyone is trying to become the master. And there is competition between one master to another. Because nobody is master, that competition, that "I shall become master," that is illusion. So in this illusory fighting and competition, when one fails, that "I could not become the master..."
For example, in our country we respected Mahatma Gandhi as the father of the nation or the master of the nation. But actually, he was servant. As soon as there was little discrepancy, immediately he was put to death. Immediately. Similarly, in USA also, President Kennedy, he was very popular president, but as soon as there was little discrepancy, he was also killed. So this position we must know, that nobody is master here; everyone is servant. But the real position is to become the servant of God. That he is, but because... Just like a criminal. He thinks that "I don't care for any law." But he is forced to obey the laws in the prison house. Outside or inside, he has to obey the laws of the government, but under illusion he thinks that "I don't care for the government." Similarly, those who are rascals, they think that "There is no God. I am God. I don't care for anyone." That is another class, demonic class. And those who obey the laws of God, they are called demigods. Dvau bhuta-sargau loke daiva asura eva ca [Bg. 16.6].
There are two classes of men in this world. One is called daiva, and the other is called asura. Asura means rebelled against God: "Don't care for God. I am God. You are God. Everyone is God. Why you are searching after God? There are so many Gods in the streets, lying on the footpath, daridra-narayana. You serve these Gods." You see? This is illusion. Daridra-narayana, starving God. So many subscription are raised in America in the name of serving these daridra-narayanas in India. Now these Americans are questioning that "You take money for serving the daridra-narayana. Why we see...? When we go to India, why we see so many daridra-narayanas are lying on the footpath?" These questions are being made. One of the big Ramakrishna Mission swamis, Swami Nikhilananda, he told me. It is not my manufactured story. Actually, people are claiming welfare society, welfare activities. But what welfare they are doing actually? The welfare activities are increasing, and the candidates for receiving the welfare, they are increasing. You are trying to serve the daridra-narayana, but actually the number of daridra-narayanas are increasing daily. So that is the position. Here, practically, Narayana cannot be daridra. That is another illusion. Narayana is the husband of the goddess of fortune, Laksmi. How He can be daridra? It is also manufactured word. Laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.29]. Here we keep one Laksmi, but as soon as there is any little discrepancy, the Laksmi immediately becomes angry and there is divorce. Practically there is no respect from the side of Laksmi to the so-called daridra-narayana. But there, thousands and thousands of Laksmis are very respectfully serving the Lord. You'll read in the story of Rukmini, the prime Laksmi of Lord Krsna. One day Krsna was a little joking, and she took it very seriously, and she immediately fainted. So much respect. "Oh, Krsna might be thinking of leaving me." So she fainted immediately. So much sambhrama. Laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam [Bs. 5.29]. These are the statements of scripture. And when Krsna was actually present on the planet, He showed it, how much He is respectfully served by His sixteen thousand wives, and how much comfortably He kept all of them in different palaces, and expanding Himself into sixteen thousand forms. That is God. That is God. So everyone, even the Laksmi is servant, maidservant of Krsna, what to speak of others? Dasi. So how one can claim that "I am God"? God is not so cheap. Only persons who are illusioned, they claim that "I am God." He is servant. Instead of becoming, voluntarily rendering service to God, because they claim to be God they are more put into illusion. Maya-grasta jivera sei dasa upajaya. It is said in the Vaisnava literature, pisaci paile yena mati-cchanna haya, maya-grasta jivera sei dasa upajaya: "Just like a person, when he is haunted by ghosts, he speaks all kinds of nonsense, similarly, when a living entity is engrossed by the illusory aspect of this material nature, he also talks all foolishly." He also talks... One of the greatest foolish things is that he claims that "I am God."
So God is not so cheap. Therefore there are two classes of men: asura and devata. You have heard that there is always fight between asuras and devatas because asuras are always against God, and devatas, they are servant of God. That is the difference. Even at home there are, there was asura and devata. The father was an asura, and the son was a devata, Prahlada Maharaja. And the father became enemy of the son. Naturally, father is always affectionate. But because he was asura, he became against his beloved son. That is the nature of the asura. Even asuras... Just like tiger also has got affection for the cub, so this Hiranyakasipu was affectionate because Prahlada Maharaja was very nice boy, five years old, very good looking. Natural affection. He was youngest. And one day he asked the son, "My dear boy, what you have learned the best thing? Tell me." Just like father asks sometimes. So he described that "One should sacrifice everything for realizing God." Tat sadhu manye 'sura-varya dehinam, asad-grahat... I forget that sloka now, that Prahlada Maharaja said that "That is the best way of life in the human form of life, to utilize this opportunity for realizing God." That was his version. And the father became very angry. And from that day, father, the father taught, instructed the teachers, that "How is that you are teaching all this nonsense to my boy?" They replied, "Sir, we do not teach. This boy is naturally God-inclined. What can I do? As soon as he gets opportunity, he begins to preach God consciousness in the class." When the teacher is absent, immediately Prahlada Maharaja stands up on the bench and he addresses the friends, "My dear boys, this is the life for realizing God. You don't forget this." In this way he was lecturing. These are in the Bhagavata.
So the demigods means God-realized persons or servant of God. They have dedicated their life for the service of the Lord, whereas the asuras, they are always against such principles. So here also the same thing is happening. Yuyam vai dharma-rajasya yadi nirdesa-karinah. The Visnudutas challenged the Yamaduta that "If you are actually the servants of your master, Dharmaraja..." Yamaraja is Dharmaraja. Another name is Dharmaraja. He is also representative of God. Just like a magistrate, he also deals with the criminal cases, but magistrate is not bad. Magistrate is representative of the government. Similarly, Dharmaraja, although punishes all criminals or sinful persons, but he is a pure servant of God. Therefore his name is Dharmaraja. He is executing the order of the master. So therefore the Visnudutas challenged the Yamadutas that "If you are actually serving your master, Dharmaraja..." Just like a police constable is supposed to know the law, whom to arrest. If he arrests anyone and everyone, then he is a fool. He cannot arrest anyone and everyone. He cannot arrest a law-abiding man. Similarly, the Yamadutas, they also cannot take away to the court of the Yamaraja everyone and anyone. No. Only the nondevotees are taken. Those who are devotees, they are not taken. That is... You will find in the Bhagavata, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Yamaraja especially instructs that "Those who are Vaisnavas, you should not go there. You should offer your respect to them." Somebody asked me that "Swamiji, why these tulasi beads in your neck or your devotees' neck?" So I replied, "Just like a pet dog has got a collar, similarly we are pet dogs of God. We have got this collar. And Yamaraja will understand that 'He is God's dog. He should not be shot down.' " (laughter)
So actually that is the position. Anyone... There is a verse. There is a verse that "Don't go to the Vaisnavas." The Yamadutas were especially instructed. But this Ajamila was known, a sinful person. Everyone knew. But he had become, I mean to say, free from all sinful contamination because at the time of death, he uttered the word "Narayana" without any offense. The Yamadutas, they could not understand that he is no more under the laws of criminal punishment; he is free from all contamination. And actually, that is the position. Krsna... One who utters the name "Krsna," he immediately becomes free from all sinful activities, immediately. That is the power of Krsna's name. But the difficulty is that after being freed, we again commit mistake in sinful activity. Krsna's name has got the power. As soon as you utter the name "Hare Krsna," immediately you become freed from all contamination. Therefore if one thinks that "I am chanting Hare Krsna mantra, so even if I commit sinful activities, that will be counteracted by my chanting," that is another, greatest offense. That we have discussed many times, that on the strength of holy name of Lord, if one commits sinful activities, he is a greatest offender. Just like sometimes we find in Christian churches. They go on Sunday, and they confess, and they are supposed to be excused from the sinful reaction. But again, after coming back from the church, again commits the same sins with expectation that "Next week, when I shall go to the church, I shall confess, and it will be counteracted." This kind of, I mean to say, understanding is prohibited, this kind of understanding. One... Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu accepted Jagai-Madhai. They were very sinful. What is their sin? The illicit sex, woman-hunter, drunkard, meat-eaters. That's it. That is sinful activities according to Vedic scripture. So they became debauchees and gundas, a disturbing element. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu delivered them. Caitanya Mahaprabhu delivered them on one condition. What is that condition? When they fell down on the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya and Nityananda, "Sirs, we are so much sinful. Kindly deliver us"there is a long history, incidence; I will tell you some dayCaitanya Mahaprabhu made one condition, that "I can accept you only on your promise that you shall no more commit sinful activities. What you have done, that is all right. I will excuse. But if you commit again, that will be greatest offense." So they said, ara nare baba. Ara nare: "No more, sir. This is the end of our sinful activities. No more we shall do it."
So our Krsna consciousness movement, following the footsteps of Lord Caitanya, we are also following the same principles under the authority of Lord Caitanya. When we accept somebody in our society as initiated member we put forward this obligation, restriction, that "No more illicit sex life, no more gambling, no more intoxication and no more animal food." That is necessary. If you accept spiritual life, at the same time go on committing sinful activities, then you will never be able to progress. That is not possible. Because in the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by Krsna, yesam anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam: "Persons who are completely freed from all contamination of sinful activities and simply engaged in pious activity, they only are admitted in devotional service." So if you are actually serious about entering into the kingdom of God, Vaikuntha, then you should be very much careful about these four principles of restriction. No illicit... You cannot have any sex life without being married. That is sinful activity. You cannot indulge in intoxication. You cannot eat anything which is beyond the jurisdiction of your food. For you, for a human being, the food is, I mean to say, given there, quota, that "You can eat grains. You can eat fruits. You can eat flowers, vegetables. You can eat milk." That is sattvikahara, foodstuff prepared from vegetables, fruits, grains, sugar, and milk products. That's all. That is sattvika. That is allotted for the human being. You cannot imitate the cats and dogs: "Because they are eating meat, I also meat... Meat also is my food." They put forward, "Everything is food." So why don't you eat stool? That is also foodfor the hog. So we must have discrimination, that what sort of food we shall take. Not that like hogs, anything will be accepted. That is humanity. So in this way, actually if we enter, if we want to enter into spiritual life, then these four principles of restriction must be observed. [break]
...And those who do not believe in God and act according to whims, such persons are called asuras. In the Bhagavad-gita you will find, na mam duskrtino mudha prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. It is clearly stated, mayaya apahrta-jnana asuri-bhavam asritah. This very word is very important: asuri-bhavam asritah. They have... Because they have taken to the shelter of asuri-bhava, atheistic philosophy, in spite of advancement of education, they are naradhama, lowest of the mankind. These words are exactly there. Naradhama. You cannot say, "How you can say this gentleman asura? He is so much educated, highly qualified, university degree." The answer is there, mayaya apahrta-jnana: "Yes, it appears that he is very learned, but his actual knowledge is taken away by the maya on account of his being atheistic." And such atheistic person, bewildered by maya and being lowest of the mankind, they cannot surrender unto God. Na mam duskrtino mudha prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. So these things may not be very palatable, but these things are there in scriptures. We have to preach the scriptural injunction. Therefore we say, "Bhagavad-gita as it is." You cannot play hide and seek with the problem of life. You must know your real position, and you must...
Therefore here it is asked that bruta dharmasya nas tattvam. So dharma and adharma. There are two kinds of activities, dharma... Dharma means one who is acting according to the order of God. That is dharma. And one who is not acting according to the order, that is adharma. Therefore the challenge was there: "If you are actually representative of Dharmaraja, you must know what is dharma and what is adharma. You explain." That means they are also not aware what was the actual position of Ajamila. They did not know that although throughout his whole life he was sinful, but because at the time of his death he simply remembered Narayana... But that is also difficult. We may not think that "Let me now go on committing all sinful activities. At the time of death I shall remember Narayana or Krsna." That is not possible. It is only possible for persons who had some intimate relationship with Narayana. This Ajamila had very intimate relationship with Narayana. When he was boy, when he was being trained up by his father, he was very faithful to Narayana, to his father. Up to twenty years, he served very nicely Narayana. Therefore he had the effect of remembering Narayana at the time of death. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, svalpam api asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. If even slight of this Narayana-dharma is practiced, it can save you from the greatest danger. So why not take to this Narayana consciousness or Krsna consciousness always, twenty-four hours? Then there is no question of danger. Narayana-parah sarve na kutascana bibhyati [SB 6.17.28]. One who has become narayana-para, he is not afraid of anything. Na kutascana bibhyati. Why he should be afraid? He knows, "There is Narayana; there is Krsna. Why shall I be afraid?"
So, it is past six.
Devotee (1): Can I ask one question, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (1): You said that Ajamila, because he chanted "Narayana, Narayana," offenselessly, so he went to Vaikuntha. And then you said if we are chanting, if we chant Hare Krsna, all our sinful activities are washed away. Is that so even if we chant offensively?
Prabhupada: Offensive means when you chant with this idea that "Now I am chanting, all my sinful activities are gone. So again I can commit sinful activities, and I shall chant, 'Narayana.' " That is offense. That is offense. Knowingly you are committing sinful activities. You know this is sinful activity, but you are thinking on the strength of chanting that "Even if I commit this offense, sinful activities, it will be counteracted by my chanting." That is offense. That offense was not there in the case of Ajamila. He was young man. He was being trained up by his father in the Narayana philosophy, Narayana life. But due to bad association he became a victim to all kinds of sinful activities, and that was not offense. You can fall down by, I mean to say, unaware the association. But if you are offenseless, then you'll be saved. But if you purposely think that "Because I am chanting Hare Krsna mantra, it can counteract my sinful activities," that is the greatest offense, knowingly. Ajamila did not know. He was a boy. He fell a victim to bad association, but he was not offender. He did not do it purposefully. Therefore he was saved. Yes.
Guest (2): Why Vaisnavas are...? They are bearing(?) one of the risks(?). Yamadutas are not going. Is there already some rules(?) of they or something like that?
Prabhupada: Yes. It is not to be kept falsely. You see? Yamadutas are... They are very intelligent. If you keep it falsely, they can catch you. They are not foolish persons that you can cheat him. No, it is not possible. You must be actually Vaisnava; then you are excused. Otherwise not. You cannot cheat. So they are being trained up to become actually Vaisnavas, not a pseudo Vaisnava, simply for earning livelihood. No. That is not our proposition. And those who are earning livelihood by presenting himself as false Vaisnava, their condition is more condemned. My Guru Maharaja used to say that "Instead of earning your livelihood by presenting yourself as a Vaisnava, better you become a sweeper in the street and earn your livelihood. Don't cheat." That was the order of my Guru Maharaja. "It is better to become a sweeper in the street than to become a false Vaisnava." That is real philosophy.
Devotee (3): Prabhupada, you said that the greatest offense is to chant thinking that "My sins will be washed away" and commit sins, or wants to.(?) So what is the result that that person gets if he dies in that condition?
Prabhupada: He dies a sinful. Because he does not want to go back to Godhead, he wants to make some profit, so he dies sinful, and he has to be punished for that reason, in spite of his false this tilaka and false mala. He'll be punished. Yes?
Karttikeya: Srila Prabhupada? Even if a person is completely engrossed in material activities, but somehow or other, they utter the name of Krsna... Like you said my mother attained Krsna's kingdom, although she was completely absorbed in material activities...
Prabhupada: That was due to your grace. You reminded your mother at the time of her death, "Krsna." You were a good boy of your mother, and she got the opportunity, remembering Krsna, and got all the profit due to having a good son like you. Yes, his mother... I do not wish to discuss. But we are not at all... Just like European ladies there. So he was visiting his mother and inspiring her, "Mother, you chant Hare Krsna," whatever he has learned from me. She got some idea of Krsna, later on developed little affection for Krsna consciousness. So at the time of death, by seeing him, she simply inquired from him, "Is your Krsna here?" and died immediately. So she was fortunate to have a good son like him who reminded, by his presence, "Krsna," and she became liberated. Therefore these things are required, Vaisnava symptoms. People will immediately remember Krsna by this tilaka, by this beads, by their fearures. Immediately they will know, "Here are the groups of Krsna consciousness." Yes?
Guest (2): Who can be told as a true Vaisnava?
Prabhupada: That you have to learnnot in a minute. That you have to be trained up. Just see how they are being trained up. You cannot ask who has passed M.A. because you have to become M.A. Then you can. Not that simply asking for a minute you can understand. It is a long course of training. You have to admit yourself in the Vaisnava school and become trained up. Then you will understand what is Vaisnava. Yes?
Revatinandana: Did I... In Indore did I understand, Prabhupada, that you said that at first Ajamila saw his son. And because his son's name was Narayana, and he remembered, "Oh, Krsna..." By calling for his son, he remembered Krsna. Finally, he was calling Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is the commentary by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, so we have to accept our acaryas. That is commentary. But some way or other, Narayana, the very name, the holy name, has got so much power. That you have to understand. So those who are always chanting Hare Krsna, they are saved. It is not a show. But offenseless chanting of Hare Krsna mantra will always keep us safe and sound from the attack of maya. And there is no expenditure; there is no loss. Why people should not take? Why this obstinacy? I ask. They are thinking that "I have become civilized. I have become educated. Therefore I shall not do this." So are they not educated? Are they not civilized? Why Indian boys are refusing? That is my question. They are losing the opportunity of taking birth in India. They are so much fortunate to take their birth in India, and they are refusing this culture. That is the effect of this modern education. Apana dhana dilaye diye bhiksa bhaje pareka.(?) What is the position of India? Nobody cares for India. Wherever I go, they say, "Oh, India? That's poverty-stricken country." That is your good name. Because you are actually going. Your administrators are going: "Give me. Give me grains. Give me money. Give me weapons so I can be saved from the slapping of China." A begging business. The India's position is not very glorious outside India. You may be puffed up that you have become independent. But everyone is anxious to have your spiritual culture, everyone. They know. Even a Chinaman, he has written one book that is recommended in New York University. He says that "If you want to know about spiritual culture and religion, then you must go to India." So you are all young boys. You should be very responsible. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said specifically, bharata-bhumite manusya-janma haila jara: "Anyone who has taken birth as a human being in the land of Bharatavarsa," janma sarthaka kari' kara paropakara, "just make your life successful and do welfare activities for others." So you must realize, because in India you have got this Krsna science or spiritual culture so nicely left by so many sages, so many saintly persons. You do not make your life successful by following their path. And what can you do for yourself or for others? You cannot be glorious simply by imitating them. When you have established some technological institution, you will find in the Western countries, they are hundred years ahead than you. So in that way you cannot make competition. You should realize your own assets and distribute to the world, and that will make you glorious. (end)

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