Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.4

Japan, April 22, 1972
Prabhupada: ...gata-sammohas tyaktvodaste tadobhayam. So chant this verse, beginning from... Practice.
Karandhara: Brahmane darsayan rupam.
Prabhupada: Brahmane darsayan. Darsayan. Brahmane darsayan rupam avyalika-vratadrtah. Go on reading.
Karandhara: Brahmane darsayan rupam. (devotees chant sloka with Srila Prabhupada correcting)
Prabhupada: You try to follow the transcription because you do not know devanagari alphabet. When there is chanting you follow the transcription.
So read every verse. Practice it. Give everyone. [break] Purification means that one will be able to see God face to face. That is purification. Just like in the sky, as soon as the cloud is moved, dissipated, you can see the sun immediately. This is the process. God is everywhere, within and without. So why He is not seen? Because our senses are not perfect. God is everywhere. They say, "Oh, why you are going to temple. God is everywhere," as if he has seen God. These rascals say like that. "What is the use of going to temple? God is everywhere." Have you seen? No one has. You see?(?) Is it not, sometimes they say?
Sudama: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: If God is everywhere, why not in the temple? These are the atheistic proposal. If God is everywhere, so why not in the temple? In the temple I can see God, at least. The form of God, it is being worshiped, offered prasadam. So there is a spiritual atmosphere. So why shall I not go to the temple? So actually God is everywhere. That's a fact. But so long I am not purified, I have to see God as they are prescribed in the sastra. Here the Deity, He is God, but because I have no power to see God, therefore I see that "Oh, it is made of wood. It is made of metal." That is my imperfect senses (perception?). But God is there also. God is everywhere, so God is here also. Why you are talking of metal and wood? From reasoning, argument, if God is everywhere, why not He is in the metal or wood? In your eyes it is metal, but we see God. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, as soon as saw Jagannatha, He fainted. Therefore visuddhy-artham. Atma-tattva-visuddhy-artham.
So we have to learn how to purify our senses. Then we can see God everywhere. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs. 5.38]. Brahma-samhita. Premanjana-cchurita. When we develop love of God, prema anjana, that ointment... Just like we apply some ointment to the eyes to make it clear—our vision becomes clearer—similarly, there is ointment which is called love of Godhead. If we develop that love of Godhead, so by that ointment, when our imperfect eyes will be cleansed, then we can see God. This is the process. Atma-tattva. So atma-tattva visuddhy-artham. Atma-tattva. Yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam. So the beginning of purification is first of all to understand "what I am. Am I this body or something else?" Atma-tattva. If we can understand "myself, what I am," then I can understand God also. Or if I can understand God, then I can understand me also. Just like if you see the sun, you can see yourself also. In the darkness you cannot see yourself, neither the sun.
So that is called atma-tattva. Light. At night, darkness, dense darkness, you cannot see anything. I am walking in the dark, but I cannot see my hands and legs, where I am going. I am afraid: "Whether I shall fall into some ditch?" This is my position. Therefore it has to be purified. Atma-tattva-visuddhy-artham yad aha bhagavan rtam: "Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality, as He says..." So therefore we have to cleanse ourself, visuddhy-artha. In order to cleanse, we have to hear from Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He is coming. Out His causeless mercy He is coming to reveal Himself, Krsna: "It is like this. I am like this. You are like this." Both things. First, beginning, Krsna said, "You are not this body." Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca... [Bg. 2.11]. "Arjuna, you are talking like a very learned man, but you do not know what you are—not this body. You are not this body. Why you are lamenting for this body, your body and your brother's body, your grandfather's body, your children's body? But you are not body."
Therefore, in the first chastisement, Krsna was accepted as spiritual master. A spiritual master has the right to chastise. Father, spiritual master, they are advised to chastise. Putram ca sisyam ca tadayen na tu lalayet. So father and teacher is advised by Canakya Pandita that "You should always chastise your son and disciple. Chastise." Tadayet. Tadayet means "Simply chastise. Always find out mistake." Don't be angry, but it is the business of the teacher and the father simply to find out your mistakes, not to find out your good things. Tadayen na tu lalayet. Lalayet means patting: "Oh, my dear son, my dear boy, you are so nice. You have done..." Sometimes it is done, but it is the business of the teacher and the father to chastise. Never recognize the disciple's business or son's business as very good. Then they will spoil. That is the injunction of Canakya Muni. Lalane bahavo dosah: "If you simply pat, then there will be so many faults." Lalane bahavo dosah. Dosah means faults. Tadane bahavo gunah: "And if you chastise, oh, they will be very much qualified." Tadane bahavo gunah, tasmat: therefore, putram ca sisyam ca tadayen na tu lalayet, "simply chastise. Don't pat." This is the injunction, moral injunction. So, so far we are concerned, when our spiritual master used to chastise, we took it as blessing. That was very nice. And he would chastise like anything. "Damn rascal, foolish, stupid," anything, all good words. (laughter)
One day it so happened... That was not my fault. My, another old godbrother, was... Prabhupada was speaking. So I was very much fond of hearing. That gentleman, he was a retired doctor. So he wanted to speak something. He should not have done so, but... Just like... So naturally I also... And Prabhupada saw it, and he became so angry. So he knew that my attention was drawn by him. He chastised him like anything. He was old man. Actually almost like his age. So he was paying sixty rupees in those days per month. So he became so angry, that "Do you think that because you pay sixty rupees, you have purchased us? You can do anything and anything?" He said like that. Very strong word he used. "Do you think that I am speaking for others? You have learned everything? You are diverting your attention." So many ways, he was very, very angry. You see? So this is nice, to chastise. Therefore, as soon as Krsna was accepted as guru... Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam: [Bg. 2.7] "I become Your disciple." Because in the beginning there was friendly talks... So friendly talks cannot make any good advance. Talks must be between the spiritual master or teacher and the disciple.
So immediately, first of all, He chastised. Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase: [Bg. 2.11] "Arjuna, you are talking like a learned man, but you are a fool number one." Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti panditah. That means "If you had been actually pandita, learned man, then you would not have lamented for this body." Gatasun. "The body is neither a subject matter for lamentation, either living condition or dead condition. It has no value." This is the instruction, Krsna's word. But the modern civilization, they are giving all value to this body, all their philanthropic work, hospitalization, and this, so many things. Just like our Mr. George Harrison, he raised how many millions dollars for...
Karandhara: Nine million.
Prabhupada: Nine million dollars, and, to the... This is going on. In the Bhagavad-gita we don't find anywhere a single line that "You raise funds for," I mean to say, "giving relief to the poor" or "to the suffering." Is there any instruction in Bhagavad-gita? You have read. Can you find out? But these people, they have become more learned than Krsna. In our country, Vivekananda: daridra-narayana-seva. The whole Ramakrishna Mission is collecting funds only on this rascal plea. One Swami Nikhilananda, he told me "Now the Americans are questioning that you are raising fund for feeding the poor, but when we go to India we see simply poor men. What you are doing with this money?" Actually they are doing nothing. They are collecting money in the name of feeding the poor, and they are living just like royal style, you see, eating all, everything.
So atma-tattva-visuddhy-artha. So we should not be very much attached for the benefit of this body. We must purify. Atma, atma-tattva... Atma is sometimes... In Sanskrit language, atma is meant the body, the mind and the soul. So atma-tattva-visuddhy-artha: "In order to find out what is pure atma..." Now atma is covered with the subtle body and the gross body. So we should analyze whether this gross body is atma or the subtle body is atma. So they do not know, the modern civilization. The karmis, they are accepting this gross body as atma, the gross body as atma, or the subtle body. The jnanis, they are accepting mind, intelligence, as atma. But atma is above. Therefore we have to purify the idea of atma-tattvam. Atma-tattva-visuddhy-artham. Atma-tattva-visuddhy-artham. Yad aha. So we have to hear from authorities, from Bhagavan. Brahmane darsayan rupam avyalika-vratadrtah. Because Brahma underwent great tapasya for hundreds of years, so, being pleased upon Brahma, Krsna, Lord Krsna, explained to him this atma-tattva.
So Krsna is within. In the beginning of Bhagavata, tene brahma hrda... The... Darsayan. When Brahma saw the form of the Lord—not exactly outside but from within. And He educated him from within. Tene brahma hrda. Hrda means through the heart He transmitted the knowledge, bhagavat-tattva. And after understanding the bhagavat-tattva instructed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he wrote this Brahma-samhita. Cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vrksa-laksavrtesu surabhir abhipalayantam [Bs. 5.29]. There are hundred chapters of Brahma-samhita. They are lost. Only the fifth chapter was found in a temple in a handwritten leaf. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu collected it, and He gave it to His disciple, that "This Brahma-samhita is the summary of Srimad-Bhagavatam. So you take..." So Brahma learned this, what is Krsna, what is Bhagavan, from Bhagavan. So you have to learn also from Bhagavan. So Bhagavan is teaching Himself to Arjuna, Krsna. And you try to understand as Arjuna understood. Then you also directly learn what is taught by Krsna. Krsna was accepted by Arjuna, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan: [Bg. 10.12] "You are Parabrahman. You are the Supreme Brahman." Param dhama: "You are the rest of everything." Param dhama. Pavitram is the supreme pure. Paramam bhavan sasvatam purusam: "You are purusam, enjoyer." So these things were accepted by Arjuna. So if we simply accept as Arjuna accepted, then we also learn what is Bhagavan. [break]
...also spiritual. Localized Paramatma, that is also spiritual. And Bhagavan is... They are all spiritual, therefore all one. But according to my angle... So ultimately Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead... But because I cannot see, sometimes I realize a impersonal Brahman or localized Paramatma. But actually the Absolute Truth, absolute person, is Krsna. Mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. Krsna says, "There is no more superior truth above Me." So you realize the Absolute Truth in different stages, in the beginning as impersonal Brahman, impersonal Brahman. Just like you realize the sun as impersonal sunlight, then localized sun globe. But if you are able to enter into the sun globe, then you see the sun-god, Vivasvan. It is up to your power. But actually, from the person, sun-god, the light is coming. This is practical. The sun-god... Within the sun globe there is sun-god, Vivasvan. He is a person, Surya-narayana. And there are persons also in that globe. They are living in the Suryaloka. Similarly, there are person in the Candraloka. I do not know which Candraloka these people are going; they find no person there. But they say one side is dark. Whether one side is dark for them, in that side there may be. Anyway... So, yes. Then go on. "Generally..."
Pradyumna: "Generally people have many wrong conceptions about both of them. The wrong conception of the jivatma is to identify the material body with the pure soul. And the wrong conception of Paramatma is to think Him on an equal level with the living entity. But both misconceptions can be removed by one stroke of bhakti-yoga, just as in the sunlight both the sun and the world and everything within the sunlight are properly seen. In the darkness no one can see the sun, nor himself, nor the world. But in the sunlight one can see the sun, himself, and the world around him. Srila Sukadeva Gosvami therefore says that for purification of both wrong conceptions, the Lord presented His eternal form before Brahmaji, being fully satisfied by Brahma's nondeceptive vow of discharging bhakti-yoga."
Prabhupada: Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. That is clearly said in the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, "If you want to know Me, then you have to accept this bhakti-yoga. No other means will...," because without full surrender unto Krsna, nobody can know Him. Even a very important man in this world, you cannot know him by challenge. But if you surrender, it is possible to know him. Then? [break]
Bhakti-yoga therefore requires little tapasya, not playthings, tapasya, that "We are addicted to so many sinful activities. We must give it up." That is tapasya. "We must observe fasting on ekadasi day, on Lord's birthday." These are tapasya. If we do not... "We must chant sixteen rounds. We must observe the rules and regulations." This is tapasya. Don't make God very cheap thing: "Oh, it is very cheap thing." No. It has been made very easy for the Kali-yuga people because they cannot undergo any kind of tapasya. There is simple tapasya—"Chant sixteen rounds. Don't take this. Don't do this, four items. Take prasadam. Don't take anything." So nothing is stopped. A little regulated, that this much, if we do not do, then how we can expect to see God and understand God? Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1]. If simply we remain like hogs and cats and dogs, then how it is possible to realize God? Param pavitram. If I do not become pavitra myself, pure, how I can see the supreme pure? It is impossible. Tapasya must be there. But for this age the tapasya has been minimized. Brahma is the most important person within this universe. He underwent tapasya for a hundred years. Then he could see God and realize God. You cannot go such tapasya, undergo such tapasya. That is not possible in this age.
He has simply asked, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, very kindly. He is God. He is giving His own prescription: harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam, kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva: [Cc. Adi 17.21] "Simply you chant." Because in this age it is very difficult... Every process... The yoga system, that is also tapasya. The jnana system, that is also tapasya. Karma system also, that is also great tapasya. Karma means not working hard in the factory like cats and dogs. No, that is not karma. Karma means to perform the ritualistic ceremonies, big, big yajnas, sacrifices. That is karma.
So where is your money? You cannot provide your food even for two meals. That is the position. For two meals only, people are going... [break] ...twenty miles. You see? Fifty miles, sixty miles, forty miles—that is common thing. Or they are sometimes coming from 120 miles in train. And I have seen in Canada. They are going by plane from Vancouver to Montreal or something like that, their daily business. Similarly, in your country also, there are many men coming daily Los Angeles, five hundred miles by plane. This is your civilization. For two meals only, you have to make so much tapasya-fifty miles, hundred miles, five hundred miles, go and come back. There is a story that one gentleman, he was coming to Calcutta early in the morning because he has to go hundred miles, so to catch the first train at six o'clock. Then he will reach at nine o'clock in city. Then he can attend office at ten o'clock. So... And again, going back, the office hour is finished at five o'clock. He was to go to home at ten o'clock. But still, he will go for sleeping six hours. The whole day and night is engaged for earning two meals. So they will undergo so much tapasya only for two meals which is obtained very easily by the cats and dogs. But they are not prepared to undergo any tapasya for understanding God. This is their position. For meals the birds, bees, they are not going to office. There are 8,400,000 forms of life. Only the civilized form of, the so-called civilized men, they are undergoing so much trouble for their meals. But others, they are not going fifty miles. They have got ready food. They sit down on any tree. Oh, there are enough fruits. Little eating, finish their business. Or take the elephants also. They are eating so much. They have got also food. Therefore sastra says that "Food is already there." So many people say, "Oh, so many people are dying, starving." And where is the man? Show me who is dying for starvation. These are all pleas. They won't take any tapasya for understanding, but they will work hard like asses, like hogs and dogs, for two meals. But we should consider that we are taking so much penances for simply filling our this hungry belly, appetite. Why not little tapasya for Krsna, chanting sixteen rounds? But will... That is also very difficult. Then? Tapasya, penance in pure bhakti-yoga.
Pradyumna: "The form of the Lord which was manifested before Brahma..." [break]
Prabhupada: ...intelligence that our form we change or we die, so Krsna never dies. Krsna never dies. The evidence of death is... Just like in our past life we had some body and we died. We have got another body. Krsna does not die means He does not change His body. Sambhavamy atma-mayaya [Bg. 4.6]. If He would have died, then He could not recollect in His mind the incident which happened millions of years ago. He says, vivasvan, proktavan aham avyayam, vivasvan manave praha. When Arjuna inquired that "You say that You instructed this Bhagavad-gita, this science, to Vivasvan long, long, millions of years ago. How can I believe it?" Therefore He said, "I remember it. You don't remember. Therefore I do not die. You die." This is it. One who can remember, he does not die. Just like I... So long I can remember of my childhood activities, boyhood activities, I have not died. Is it not? Although the body is gone. This is the evidence that Krsna does not die. Try to understand this point. Death means forgetting everything. That is death. But if you can remember, that is not death. It is clear?
Devotees: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So I change my body, but I remember that I was a child, I was a boy, I was playing like this. I was doing like this. My mother was chastising me like this. Therefore I am not dead. But the body is gone. So this is the distinction between death and life. If you can remember, then you have not died. And if you forget, that is death. But the atma is permanent, eternal. So Krsna does not die. Otherwise, how He could remember? This is the reason. You try to understand all this reasoning. You have to preach. This is the reason. Because Krsna says that "I remember everything," therefore Krsna does not die. Is it established or not? Yes. You say... My personal example... Because I remember all my childhood, boyhood activities, therefore I am not dead. Nobody says that "You are dead man," although my body has changed, because I can remember. And as soon as I shall forget, that is death.
Then? One heard and one spoke. Sri-visnoh sravane pariksit. Pariksit Maharaja sat down. He did not do anything. He simply heard about Visnu, Lord Visnu, Krsna, activities. So sri-visnoh sravane: "Simply by hearing, Pariksit attained perfection." Abhavad vaiyasakih kirtane. Vaiyasaki. Vaiyasaki means Sukadeva Gosvami. Kirtane. He simply narrated. He also gained. Therefore sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. There are nine different processes of bhakti-yoga. Any one of them you adopt, you become perfect, not that you have to adopt nine. If you can, it is very nice. So nine, eight, seven, six, five—if you adopt only one, you become... You don't anything. Simply hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a realized soul, you will become perfect. So sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam. If you simply worship the Deity in regulated form, you become perfect. This is arcanam. Sravanam. So all the methods are there. You adopt any one of them; you become perfect. Simply you offer prayer—you become perfect. Vandanam. You simply work. You simply wash this temple and sweep this temple regularly with heart and soul—you become perfect. You don't require even to read. So dasyam. Dasyam means simply work as menial servant of Krsna. Dasyam. Sakhyam. Arjuna. Just like Arjuna. He made simply friendship with Krsna. In friendship so many insulting words are used also. So
So any one of them you adopt, you become perfect. So the best thing is nityam bhagavata-sevaya [SB 1.2.18]. If you hear Bhagavata... This Bhagavata is written for hearing, for hearing, discussing. Otherwise, why we are taking so much time? So here it is said that "Both Sukadeva Gosvami and Pariksit Maharaja attained perfection through the medium of Srimad-Bhagavatam." So any questions?
Devotee (1): You said that a person progresses through the three levels of God realization from Brahman realization. Is that true also for a Vaisnava? Does he first attain Brahman realization and then Paramatma, or does he...
Prabhupada: Vaisnava, immediately given lift to the Supreme Person, and because he understands Supreme Person, automatically he understands what is Paramatma and what is Brahman. Others, they go step by step, but Vaisnava is given immediate lift. Just like somebody is earning money, ten dollars, fifteen dollars, twenty dollars, and he is thinking of accumulating money, 100,000 dollars. So if somebody gives him immediately 100,000 dollars, "Take this," then ten dollars, fifteen, twenty dollars, hundred dollars, thousand dollars are all in. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. If you simply have tried to understand Krsna, then you understand everything. Then Krsna says, brahmano 'ham pratistha: "The impersonal Brahman is resting upon Me." So you immediately understand what is impersonal Brahman. Yasya prabha: [Bs. 5.40] "It is the effulgence of Krsna's body." Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. You understand, "Oh, Krsna resides in everyone's heart as Paramatma." So immediately understand what is Paramatma. Immediately understand what is Brahman.
Devotee (1): Because it is a gradual process...
Prabhupada: No, gradual process for the others, not for the devotee. Devotee is given immediately and that also in a simple way: in His form of name, nama-rupe. You simply chant Hare Krsna. So devotee is privileged so much, especially in this age, that "You take God, the Supreme Absolute Truth, by chanting Hare Krsna." If you do it properly, then everything is done. You are given the thing immediately, but it may take some time. That is gradual. That is another thing. And for others, those who are trying to know the Absolute Truth by their own effort, for them, first realization is Brahman. Then next realization is Paramatma. And if they can surpass these two realizations, then, some day, they may become fortunate to understand what is the Supreme Person. [break]
Cintamani: ...can't we remember like when we were in the womb of our mother? We can remember things, like when we were children, but we have no memory. When we were...
Prabhupada: Hm? What is that?
Karandhara: Why aren't we able to recall when we were in the womb?
Prabhupada: Room?
Karandhara: The womb of the mother.
Prabhupada: What is to be done in the mother's womb? What is to be done? What is the question? I cannot understand.
Karandhara: She wants to know why we can't remember that, why I can't remember when I was in the womb.
Prabhupada: You cannot remember so many things.
Cintamani: But you said that when we change bodies we forget everything, that after death that... I don't understand.
Prabhupada: Oh. Change bodies... Just like you have changed your body from the body of the womb, and at the present moment... But you don't remember all the incidences that have happened. So sometimes we remember; sometimes we do not remember, like that. But generally, if we... We remember during lifetime, but we forget also. Even if we forget, that does not mean I am dead. Forgetfulness is explained, maya. We forget Krsna. We forget that "I am part and parcel of Krsna" by forgetfulness. That is explained. What is that? Atma-mayam rte rajan. Atma-maya. It is a illusion. That forgetful... Actually there is no forgetfulness. I should not forget, but because I am illusioned, therefore I forget. Because... I forget means I am illusioned. Atma-maya. Influenced by the modes of material... The one who is most influenced by the modes of material nature, they forget. Just like you are worshiping Krsna. But others, they are not worshiping. They are to be awakened to Krsna consciousness. It does not mean they are actually separate from Krsna. But they have to be awakened. They say man is not dead, he is sleeping. But he has to be awakened. As soon as he is awakened, he remembers immediately. This is called svapna-citta-nyaya. I am sleeping, forgetting everything. I am in a different place. But as soon as I am awakened I remember, "Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there." So this forgetfulness is a temporary illusion, that's all. Actually we don't forget. It is temporary. Atma-mayam rte. It is only it is action of God's external energy. Because I wanted to forget Krsna, therefore Krsna has helped me in forgetting Him by His own illusory energy. Have sankirtana. (end)

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