Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā 8.128 – January 24, 1977, Bhubaneswar

He is all-attractive because He possesses all the six opulences

This verse we were discussing last night, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's statement that Krsna consciousness is not reserved for any particular person or nation or religion. [translated into Oriya throughout by Gaura-Govinda] The central point is that one must understand what is Krsna. The other day somebody inquired, "What is the meaning of 'Krsna'?" "Krsna" means all-attractive. Unless God is all-attractive, how He can become God? So Vrndavana life means Krsna comes, descends Himself to show what is Krsna, what is God. So the picture, Vrndavana life, that is village life. There are villagers, cultivators, cows, calves-that is Vrndavana. It is not a big city like New York, London; it is village, and the central point is Krsna. This is Vrndavana life. There the gopis, they are village girls, and the cowherd boys, they are also village boys. Nanda Maharaja is the head of the village, agriculturist. Similarly, the elderly persons and the elderly gopis, Mother Yasoda and her other friends-all are attracted by Krsna. This is Vrndavana life. They even did not know what is Krsna. They did not know by reading Vedas, Puranas, Vedanta to understand Krsna. But their natural affection was for Krsna.

So this svabhavika akarsana can be... At the present moment we have no natural attraction for Krsna; therefore we must understand by knowledge what is Krsna. That is Krsna tattva vetta. So why one should be attracted to Krsna unless Krsna has all the attractive features? The attraction... Generally, in this material world we are attracted to a rich man or to a powerful man, man or woman. Just like our Prime Minister, she is woman, but because she is powerful, we are attracted; we talk of her. So the points of attractions are discussed by Parasara Muni as bhaga. Bhaga means opulence. So these opulences... When one is very rich, he is opulent. One is very powerful, he is attractive. One is very influential, one is very beautiful, one is very highly learned... In this way, attraction. So if we scrutinizingly study the life of Krsna, you will find in the history of the world than Krsna there was no richer person than Krsna, no powerful person than Krsna, no beautiful person than Krsna, more learned and person of knowledge, philosophy, than Krsna. If you study you will find everything. The six opulences are fully represented in Krsna; therefore He is Bhagavan. Bhaga means opulences, and van means one who possesses. This is the meaning of Krsna, that He is all-attractive because He possesses all the six opulences. This is the description of Krsna.

So we should not accept anyone and everyone as Bhagavan. We must test whether he has got the six opulences. A person who is begging from door to door, and when there is some bodily pain he immediately goes to the doctor-"Toothache, sir. Please give me medicine," so does it mean that he is Bhagavan? A Bhagavan cannot cure his tooth pain even? This class of Bhagavan we should not accept. Bhagavan is described in the Bhagavad-gita, asamaurdha. Nobody can be equal to Bhagavan, and nobody can be greater than Bhagavan. Therefore Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says particularly, yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128]: "One who knows Krsna specifically, not superficially, but in all details what is the meaning of Krsna, what is Krsna, he can become guru." Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita about Himself, krsna-tattva, about... The truth about Krsna we can understand from Bhagavad-gita with our intelligence. Just like Krsna describes that mattaḥ parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg 7.7].

Now you study this one line that Krsna says, "There is nobody greater than Me." Now you study Krsna's life, compare with anyone and you'll find, "Yes. Nobody is greater or equal to Krsna." This is Krsna. So at the present moment the defect is that people are not very serious to understand of Krsna, because in this age, as it is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam about the people of this age,

Prayenalpayusaḥ. People are living not as they used to live formerly. In this age, Kali-yuga, the maximum years one can live: hundred years in this Kali-yuga. Hundred years. In the Dvapara-yuga it was one thousand years. In the Treta-yuga it was ten thousand years. In the Satya-yuga it was one hundred thousand years. It is reducing. Kali-yuga means the duration of age will reduce, the memory will reduce, the bodily strength will reduce, mercifulness will reduce. In this way everything will reduce. This is Kali-yuga. Supply of foodstuff will be reduced. This is Kali-yuga. So mandaḥ. Everyone is bad, not full strength. Mandaḥ sumanda-matayo. And everyone has got a sumanda-mata. Mata means opinion or system, which is also sumanda. Not only mandaḥ but sumanda. Everyone is manufacturing a type of Bhagavan, a type of religious system. That is not bona fide at all. Sumanda-matayo. Mandaḥ sumanda matayo. And everyone is unfortunate, manda-bhagya, unfortunate in this sense: they do not know what is the aim of life, how human life should make progress.

[aside:] So you can read the explanation of this. He will explain in Oriya. Purport.

Hari-sauri: Translation: "Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a sūdra, regardless of what he is, he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krsna." Purport: "This verse is very important to the Krsna consciousness movement. In his Amrta-pravaha-bhasya, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains that one should not think that because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was born a brahmana and was situated..."

Gaura-Govinda: [to Hari-sauri] Kindly read one sentence.

Prabhupada: One sentence. Yes. One sentence, finish talk. Then he'll explain.

Hari-sauri: "One should not think that because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu was born a brahmana and was situated in the topmost spiritual order as a sannyasi it was improper for Him to receive instructions from Srila Ramananda Raya, who belonged to the sūdra caste."

Gaura-Govinda: This verse is very important for Krsna consciousness movement. [translates remainder into Oriya] [break]

Prabhupada: ...Mahaprabhu said,

This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's vision. There is no such distinction that one is lower and higher in the matter of Krsna consciousness movement. In the sastras it is clearly stated that unless one is Krsna conscious, he cannot become guru.

It is said that a brahmana, even though he's well-qualified, sat-karma, brahmana's six occupation, sat-karma-pathana pathan yajana yajana dana pratigraha-sat-karma-nipuno vipro mantra-tantra-visaradaḥ, and he's well expert in Vedic hymns, Vedic understanding-mantra-tantra, Pancatantra, everything is competent-but avaisnava, if he's not a devotee of Krsna, he cannot become guru. Saḍ-vaisnava sva-paco guruḥ. But if a Vaisnava, even though he may come from the canḍala family, svapaca, the dog-eater's family-that is considered the lowest in the human society-if he becomes a Vaisnava, he is fit for becoming spiritual master. This is the sastric injunction. Our guru, out of the six Gosvamis, one of them, he has given his direction in the Bhakti... What is that? Hari-bhakti-vilasa, that avaisnava-mukhodgirnam pūtam hari-kathamrtam sravanam na kartavyam [Padma Purana]. A person who is not Vaisnava... Vaisnava means krsna tattva vetta. If he's not well versed in the science of Krsna, if his behavior is not Vaisnava... Sadacara-sampanna. Vaisnava must have dvadasa-tilaka, sikha, sūtra, kunti, and there are many things, description, sadacara-sampranna, Vaisnava. If he's not that, simply by education if he speaks about Krsna, one should not hear. One should not hear. These are professional men. If you pay him something, he'll speak for some time, but his behavior is not Vaisnava. So from such person it is forbidden to hear about Srimad-Bhagavatam or anything about Krsna. Avaisnava-mukhodgirnam pūtam hari-kathamrtam, sravanam na kartavyam. So one may say that "He's speaking about Krsna, so what is the wrong there? He may be misbehaved, but he's speaking about Krsna." So that Sanatana Gosvami says, pūtam hari-kathamrtam. Hari-kathamrtam is always pure. That's all right. But avaisnava-mukhodgirnam pūtam hari-kathamrta, sravanam... Why? Sarpocchistam payo yatha. Everyone knows milk is very nice and nutritious food, but if it is touched by the lips of a serpent, it is spoiled, no more to be... So it is forbidden, that we should not try to understand about Krsna from a person who is not Vaisnava. Explain.

[break] At the present moment there are so-called scholars, politicians or philosophers, they have nothing to do with Krsna or krsna-bhakti, but just to take advantage of the Bhagavad-gita they are explaining Bhagavad-gita in their own way.

[break] One should not spoil his life by hearing or understanding the version given by such avaisnava. So if we want to derive actual benefit from the Bhagavad-gita, we must approach such person who has understood what is Krsna. So therefore Krsna gives the direction,

We should approach, we must approach, yei krsna tattva vetta. We must learn from him about Krsna. Then we can understand Krsna. Otherwise not possible. Go on reading.

[break] ...movement we are giving this yajnopavita to the Europeans and Americans, because they are now qualified. So sometimes we are criticized in India, that "Bhaktivedanta Swami is spoiling Hindu religion." But it is not actually the fact. We are increasing the number of Hindus. Unfortunately these, our these European and American disciples, these so-called brahmana priests of Jagannatha Puri, they do not allow. [break]

Indian man (1): ...Americans, they are not allowed to Jagannatha temple. What Prabhu Bhaktivedanta Swami is doing and what action, what he's doing for them?

Prabhupada: That is up to you. We...

[break] ...vaisnave jati-buddhiḥ, arcye sila-dhir [Padma Purana].

Everyone knows in the temple... Just like Jagannatha. Everyone knows Jagannatha is made of wood, or, in other temple, made of stone. But people, do they come to see wood and stone? So if anyone thinks... Sometimes the atheist class, they think that "These foolish men, they are going to see a piece of wood." This is naraki-buddhi. Similarly, arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matiḥ: those who are acting as guru according to the description, if somebody thinks that "This man is ordinary person," and vaisnave jati-buddhiḥ, similarly caranamrta, gahgajala, if somebody thinks ordinary water, so he's naraki. So these Europeans, Americans who are properly initiated according to Vaisnava system, according to Caitanya Mahaprabhu's indication, if somebody thinks they are jati, angrej jati or American jati, he's naraki. What can be done?

Indian man (2): What are the reasons why one should not hear from one who has got sufficient knowledge on Lord Krsna if he is not outwardly a Vaisnava? That means he's not having sikha or kunti, like that.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Hari-sauri: He says, "What's wrong with hearing from someone if he has some knowledge of Krsna even if he doesn't have a sikha and tilaka and a neck bead?"

Prabhupada: That is the injunction of authority. Avaisnava-mukhodgirnam pūtam hari-ka..., sravanam na kartavyam. We have to abide by the orders of the superiors. "Why?"-there is no question. Authority says; you have to accept. You cannot say "Why?" Vedic injunction. Therefore Krsna was accepted as guru by Arjuna. Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg 2.7]. Because as friend and friend the reply and argument will go on, to stop this argument Krsna is accepted as guru, not as friend. Similarly, when you accept a guru, you must accept guru according to the Vedic principle. So here guru, Sanatana Gosvami, he is giving the injunction that avaisnava-mukhodgirnam pūtam hari-kathamrtam sravanam na kartavyam. Exceptional case is different, the paramahamsa stage. But a guru, although he is paramahamsa, because he is teaching, he come down as madhyama-adhikari. There are three kinds of Vaisnava: kanistha adhikari, madhyama adhikari and uttama adhikari. Uttama adhikari may be without kanthi, without sikha, without Vaisnava symptoms. He's paramahamsa. But when he comes to the preaching platform he must become a madhyama adhikari, not to imitate uttama adhikari, because he has to teach. He cannot deviate from the teaching principles. So what you are speaking, that "Without sikha without kanthi, one can become guru," that is fact for the paramahamsa, not for the preacher. Preacher must behave very nicely.

Indian man (3): Maharaja, it is true that one should follow Krsna consciousness for spiritual progress, no doubt, but who and why this present society situation, which we observe in this world, in the modern civilization?

Prabhupada: [asking him to move forward] You can come please here. We can hear. You can come. What do you mean by "modern civilization"?

Indian man (3): The civilization we are now going through.

Prabhupada: So what do you mean by "modern civilization"? That means to violate all the rules and regulation? Does it mean modern civilization?

Indian man (2): Question was, "Why there is a chaotic situation if...," I think if I'm understanding him correctly, "Why there is a chaotic situation? If God is to uplift the soul of the all the persons, all the livings, why there is a chaotic situation?" I think that Lord Krsna has said that yada yada hi glanir bhavati... [Bg 4.7]. That is the answer, guru will say. Why there is a chaotic situation? That is his question, sir.

Prabhupada: The chaotic situation must be there. Krsna says one thing and you do other thing. So why there shouldn't be chaotic condition? You hear Krsna, you follow Krsna-there will be order. But if you do not follow, Krsna says something and you do something... Krsna says that,

Krsna says that this Bhagavad-gita,

Krsna says the way of studying Bhagavad-gita, but you do not accept Krsna's instruction. You read all rascals' Bhagavad-gita commentary. Then why there shall not be chaotic condition? You do not follow. He strictly prohibits. Evam parampara-praptam sa kaleneha yogo nastaḥ paran-tapa [Bg 4.2]. Yogo nastaḥ. As soon as the parampara system is not accepted, the so-called commentary on Bhagavad-gita is lost or rotten. So you are interested with the rotten commentary of so-called politicians, scholars. So how you'll get the benefit? Therefore it is chaotic.

Indian man (3): Prabhupada, Lord Krsna preached Bhagavad-gita in battlefield of Kuruksetra, and it is afterwards written by Vyasadeva.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (2): Is the Vyasadeva got it out of his meditation, or how the actual things which was conveyed to Arjuna was again in real thing took a shape in Bhagavad-gita?

Prabhupada: That you have no intelligence to understand. But what is given by Vyasadeva, that is accepted by all the acaryas. We are not so learned as you are, but we follow the acarya. And it is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, acaryopasanam: you must follow the acaryas, the Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, even Sahkaracarya, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you'll get the real answer. Acaryavan puruso veda [Chandogya Upanisad 6.14.2]: "One who follows the acarya, he knows."

Others, they do not know. So you cannot question "Why? How Vyasadeva wrote?" That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Sanjaya says, vyasa prasada. How one can understand? "By the mercy of Vyasadeva." So we have to see. Instead of criticizing in that adverse way, we have to follow the acarya. Acaryopasanam. So you'll find Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnu Svami, Nimbarka, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they have accepted in that way. So what is the use of our questioning? We should follow. Mahajano yena gataḥ sa panthaḥ [Cc Madhya 17.186]. Otherwise it is not possible.

Indian man (4): Maharaja, I think God is invisible possessor of all that comes in this world.

Prabhupada: Invisible for the nondevotees. Naham prakasaḥ sarvasya yogamaya-samavrtaḥ [Bg 7.25]. But for devotee He's visible. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti [Bs 5.38]. Those who are real devotee of God, they are twenty-four hours seeing Him within the heart. So God is not invisible. Invisible for the atheist.

Indian man (5): We see some invisible action and some outer action.

Prabhupada: What is invisible?

Indian man (5): Man is simple instrument in the hands of God. That I know. God is doing everything or the man? Then the point comes why the brahmanas of the Jagannatha temple are not allowing. Sri Krsna says, sarva-bhutantara atmanam, "I live in sarva-bhuta." That means this atma is Parambrahman Himself. If so, why the brahmanas of the Jagannatha temple are not allowing the foreigners and the...?

Prabhupada: So why in other temples they are allowed? No. God wants that these rascal may remain in darkness. They cannot understand Vaisnava. Let them remain in darkness. That God wants.

Indian man (5): Krsna, Rama, Hari...

Prabhupada: No. Your answer is this, that "Why God does not...?" God wants that "These so-called brahmanas who eat Jagannatha prasada with fish, let them remain in darkness, not to understand who is Vaisnava."

Indian man (5): That is true...

Prabhupada: That is true. Take it, that. That's all. [laughter]

Indian man (5): But to understand the God...

Prabhupada: Tan aham dvisataḥ krūran ksipamy ajasram andha-yonisu [Bg 16.19]. Those who are vaisnava-dvesi, bhagavad-dvesi, envious of vaisnavas, envious of God, God keeps them in darkness perpetually.

Indian man (5): Prabhupada, what is the reason between man and God? That is the point we have to understood.

Prabhupada: We have to understood... Come to this school and learn it, not in a minute.

Indian man (5): Sir, not minute.

Prabhupada: Then why you are asking all these things? You come, become a student and learn. It is not so easy subject that standing for one minute, you'll understand everything.

Indian man (5): Not standing. If God... If God is not doing everything and...

Prabhupada: God is doing everything. I have already explained. If you want to remain a demon, God will keep you in demonic condition. That's it. He is doing everything. That's a fact. And if you want to be devotee, then God can make you devotee also. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajami [Bg 4.11].

Indian man (5): I am a devotee.

Prabhupada: Yes. So...

Indian man (5): That's why I asked of the point which is not clear to me. That's why I asked of the point. I know that God is, God is moving everything...

Prabhupada: God is doing everything. That's a fact.

Indian man (5): Krsna says in the Gita, "I motivate every living thing." If so, if Sri Krsna is living in every heart, if not, then how He can say this. [indistinct] He's God. If Sri Krsna is living in every heart, this atma itself is God, Parambrahma, atma in maya, being entangled...

Prabhupada: The God never says the atma is Para-brahman. Why you are talking like that?

Indian man (5): No. If the atma is not God, but God is there?

Prabhupada: God is...

Indian man (5): Due to the presence of a God... This life force is not God. Due to presence of a God this atma is living.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Atma is there. You have studied Bhagavad-gita or not? First of all tell me: Do you think atma and Paramatma are the same thing?

Indian man (5): Mostly the same thing. Yes. [laughter]

Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. First of all try to understand. That is foolishness. Atma and Paramatma-different.

Indian man (5): Advaitavada, dvaitavada, visistadvaitavada...

Prabhupada: No, no. I am talking of Bhagavad-gita as it is. Don't bring this vada, that vada. In the Bhagavad-gita the atma and Paramatma is not the same.

Indian man (5): No, then, well... We have to accept duality. There are two...

Prabhupada: No. Whatever "ism," we are talking of Bhagavad-gita. So Bhagavad-gita-atma and Paramatma different.

Indian man (5): This atma is being transformed to Paramatma.

Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. In the Bhagavad-gita that is not stated.

Indian man (5): With our intelligence we both cannot understand the thing, what is Parambrahman, but real philosophy is dvaitavada, advaitavada, one monism.

Prabhupada: So dvaitavada, advaitavada, there may be. But we are talking of Bhagavad-gita. In the Bhagavad-gita what is there, you speak.

Indian man (5): Knowledge of our atma. Bhagavad-gita is connected to our atma. Excuse me.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita, it is clearly stated that... What is that? Ksetra-ksetrajna. Ksetrajna.

Indian man (5): [interrupting] Ksetra-ksetrajna...

Prabhupada: Just hear. Hear, please. Hear. Hear, please.

[Indians talking at once]

Yes. Now, Krsna says, ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi [Bg 13.3]: So "I am also ksetrajna, and the jiva is also ksetrajna."

Indian man (5): Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: So that does not mean... First of all hear. Then say yes or no. He says, ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata: "I am also ksetrajna, but sarva-ksetresu." If atma... I am atma; you are atma. You know your ksetra; I know my ksetra. But I do not know your ksetra; you do not know my ksetra. That is Bhagavan. He knows everyone. Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata. So Krsna, or Bhagavan, He is sarva-ksetresu, but you are only your ksetra. Therefore dvaitavada. Two different ksetras, ksetrajnas: one ksetrajna is all-pervading and one ksetrajna is localized. Therefore two ksetrajnas. It is dvaitavada. Yes. You see Bhagavad-gita? You have read Bhagavad-gita?

Indian man (5): In this atma, two ksetrajnas.

Prabhupada: In this... Not atma. In this body. There are two ksetrajnas. One is the individual ksetrajna.

Indian man (5): But we mean to who is residing in the heart with the atma.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then He's ksetrajna.

Indian man (5): Who become splitted after our death, that is the ksetrajna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (5): Then it will be two.

Prabhupada: There are two ksetrajnas: one ksetrajna, the individual soul, and the other ksetrajna is Bhagavan. There are two ksetrajnas. Dvaitavada.

Indian man (5): Yes. Then this monism and duality, then what about the visista-advaita?

Prabhupada: No, no. We are talking of Bhagavad-gita. Why you are bringing so many things? First of all try to understand the simple thing in the Bhagavad-gita. Then bring big, big words. Yes, there are two ksetrajnas. You have to accept it.

Indian man (5): Two ksetrajnas.

Prabhupada: Yes!

Indian man (5): Then dualism.

Prabhupada: Yes!

Indian man (5): Then there are two Gods.

Prabhupada: Yes... Not two Gods. One God. One is servant. Not two Gods. There cannot be two Gods. Otherwise Krsna says, mattaḥ parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg 7.7].

Indian man (5): Two ksetrajna means two Gods. Two ksetrajna...

Prabhupada: Why ksetrajna two Gods?

Indian man (5): Because jna means God.

Prabhupada: Then why two Gods?

Indian man (5): Two ksetrajna.

Prabhupada: No! Two ksetrajna does not mean two Gods. Īsvaraḥ sarva-bhūtanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg 18.61]. So He is all-pervading. You are not all-pervading.

Indian man (5): Īsvara is all-pervading.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (5): But by sadhana, by sadhana...

Prabhupada: So even if you say... Even if you...

Indian man (5): I can also pervade. I can also pervade. [laughter]

Prabhupada: What is that?

Bhagavata: By sadhana he can become all-pervading himself.

Prabhupada: Ah. That is foolishness. That is foolishness.

Indian man (4): There is no use in argument.

Prabhupada: That is not possible.

Indian man (5): In this body people are getting siddhi.

Prabhupada: That is not possible. Mamaivamso jiva-bhūtaḥ jiva loke sanatana [Bg 15.7]. Sanatana-jiva-loke jiva amsa. Amsa cannot be the full. Yes. Amsa, part, cannot be equal to the whole.

Indian man (5): Then if we be the parcels of God, then what about prarabdha? We are suffering from pain and pleasure...

Prabhupada: So you are suffering. God is not suffering.

Indian man (5): No. God is not suffering.

Prabhupada: Then, therefore, difference between you and God. You are suffering god and he's enjoying God.

Indian man (5): We are enjoying the prarabdha, is it not?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (5): Pain and pleasure is part of God.

Prabhupada: Yes. That prarabdha. That is the... But God is not...

Indian man (5): This is not argument. I have no ability.

Prabhupada: God is not under the laws of karma.

Indian man (5): Swami... I want to know from swami.

Hari-sauri: If you want to know, then listen! If you want to know, listen. Don't speak.

Indian man (5): All are waves and bubbles of the same sea. We are the bubbles and waves of the same sea, same Parambrahman, this atma, Himself… Listen it. All are Narayanas. Īsvara sarva bhutantara atmanam. Sarva brahmamaya jagatah. Om bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ... [break]

Prabhupada: Krsna says ca, this word. Ksetrajnam ca means "I am also ksetrajna." Therefore He is different from the ordinary ksetrajna. First of all try to understand this. Ca means "different," "another." And the difference is that sarva-ksetresu bharata: whereas the individual ksetrajna is within the body. That's all.

[break] ...there is no advaitavada. There may be advaitavada philosophy, but in Bhagavad-gita there is no advaitavada. It is dvaitavada. Otherwise why Krsna said, sarva-dharman partiyajya mam ekam saranam: "You saranam vraja. You are different from Me"? Krsna says. Otherwise why Krsna asked that "You surrender"? That you and I-different. That is dvaitavada.

Indian man (5): Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66], that can I understood, all arguments.

Prabhupada: No. You can understand anything, but that is not the thing. We have to take it as it is. We are therefore presenting Bhagavad-gita as... God is commanding you, that "You surrender." So you are different from God.

Indian man (5): That means, surrender means I am not a doer. I am not doing anything. God, who is residing within me...

Prabhupada: Surrender... Who will surrender? Unless you are servant, why shall you surrender? You are servant; God is master. So therefore master and servant different.

Indian man (5): No, that is true. I am not God. But God is there within me. God is everybody.

Prabhupada: That's all... God is everywhere.

Indian man (5): He's within ant and dog and elephant and everybody.

Prabhupada: That...

Indian man (5): Due to presence of God, this small living being, due to presence of God...

Prabhupada: God is within dog. Therefore does it mean God is dog also?

Indian man (5): No. God is not dog. God is a... [man continues talking while Prabhupada talks]

Prabhupada: Then you are putting the same argument. Because God is there within dog, therefore God is dog.

Indian man (5): When we are talking...

Prabhupada: Yes, they are talking like that: daridra-narayana.

Indian man (5): God is in everywhere.

Prabhupada: God is everywhere. That is understood. But that does not mean... God says, mat-sthani sarva-bhūtani naham tesu avasthitaḥ [Bg 9.4]. Why don't you read this?

Indian man (5): No. That is true. If we will not believe that, then we will be helping people? We will be helping lot of people? No, that is not...

Prabhupada: Well, we understand Bhagavad-gita as it is. We don't make any interpretation.

Indian man (5): In Bhagavad-gita Sri Krsna says, "I live in everybody," sarava-bhutantara atmanam.

Prabhupada: Who denies that? That does not mean God is everything.

Indian man (5): No. God is not everything.

Prabhupada: Then dvaitavada-everything and God is different. That is dvaitavada.

Indian man (5): Then we have to love everybody, everything.

Prabhupada: So who says no? Unless we love everyone, why we are traveling all over the world?

Indian man (5): Love is God, accept, param dharma.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (5): Truth I understand.

Prabhupada: That's it. That is... That is wanted. Param brahma param dhama pavitram [Bg 10.12].

Indian man (5): Otherwise we can't love a poor man...

Satsvarūpa: Enough argument. Sit down. Then no more argument.

Indian man (3): I think Lord has said in the Bhagavad-gita...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): "Like sky, everywhere I am pervading, like one sun giving light to all."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): "So in all souls I am pervading."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): That much clear answer to his question, the difference between the all-pervading Lord...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): ...and the individual soul.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (3): And also He has said that Paramatma..., that He is Purusottama, that greater than the soul. The soul is also...

Prabhupada: Purusa. Soul is described as purusa.

Indian man (3): ...greater than him. So that also establishes that...

Prabhupada: Dvaitavada.

Indian man (3): Yes. God is different. And we cannot say that we are equal to God.

Prabhupada: Yes. And God says further, mattaḥ parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7] "Nobody is equal." Asamaurdha: "Nobody is equal to God; nobody is greater than God." That is God. All right. Chant Hare Krsna.

Devotees: Jaya Prabhupada! [end]