Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta 6.124 in Hindi with Hanuman Prasad Poddar – February 3, 1971, Gorakhpur

I can understand the meaning of each sūtra very clearly

Pusta Krsna: The last discussion was between Srila Prabhupada and Hanuman Prasad Poddar invited at Gita Press asrama Wednesday. There was also a kirtana and also some recorded fragments of the conversation. The next recording is the same evening, 3rd of January [sic] 1971. Srila Prabhupada speaks to a gathering of university students in this Gorakhpur community, after arati from Caitanya-caritamrta.

Prabhupada: [Microphone interference] That will not stay. Why not fix it and give one glass of water...

[break]

So where is Dr. Rao?

Devotee: Dr. Rao?

Prabhupada: I have to speak in English or Hindi? If I speak in...

Poddarji: Hindi would be much better.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Poddarji: Hindi would be much better because a greater number of people will be able to follow.

Prabhupada: Yes, but these, my students.

Poddarji: [Transl. In Hindi, Maharaja, more people…]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Poddarji: [Transl. Hindi speaking people are more, kindly…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. More votes for Hindi.] [laughs]

Poddarji: [Transl. English they will not be able to understand.]

Prabhupada: Ah. [Transl. Hmm. These poor devotees will not be able to understand.]

Poddarji: [Transl. They hear daily.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No problem. In the morning they hear once.]

Guest: [Transl. You speak in English.]

Poddarji: [Transl. Then these people will not understand.]

Guest: [Transl. Some of them will neither understand English nor Hindi. Well, someone can translate it into English.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I can't speak much Hindi, that's why. Anyway what can be done.]

There was one person named Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, a contemporary of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he was a great logician. He was a follower of Sahkara-sampradaya. An impersonalist. He and Caitanya Mahaprabhu met each other at Jagannatha Puri. This Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya was a learned scholar in the assembly of King Prataparudra. He used to teach Vedanta to big, big sannyasis. How He met Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya was that when Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to take darsana of Lord Jagannatha and the moment He saw Jagannatha He fell down unconscious. He became unconscious. At that time Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya was present in the temple. He was a learned person and knew everything. He understood that these ecstatic symptoms cannot be manifested in ordinary person. He carefully observed Him and held a piece of cotton near His eyes [nose] and found that the cotton was slowly moving. But all His other functions stopped. So he asked the servants and others who were present there, "Bring this sadhu, sannyasi to my house." Thus He was taken to his house.

In the meantime the accompanying devotees and associates of the Lord arrived in the temple and saw that He is not in the temple. But they heard other people in the temple talking among themselves, "One very attractive looking young sannyasi just now came to the temple and as soon as He saw Lord Jagannatha He fell down unconscious." They were talking like that. So they immediately understood that Caitanya Mahaprabhu came here and was taken somewhere else. They were aware that He falls down unconscious. There was another learned person at the temple who was Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya's son in law and a friend of Gadadhara Panḍita, he took the associates of the Lord to his house. As they arrived at the house of Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya they immediately began to loudly chant Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Then gradually Caitanya Mahaprabhu regained His external consciousness. Thereafter He took little rest and honoured Lord Jagannatha's prasadam. Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya's father and Caitanya Mahaprabhu's maternal grandfather were class friends. So they had some kind of native relationship. Natuarally Sarvabhauma became affectionate to Him. So he said, "My dear son, You have accepted sannyasa at an early age! You are only twenty-four years old! Therefore how will You maintain Your renounce order of life? You study Vedanta all the time and remain absorbed in it then only will be able to keep Your sannyas position intact."

Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, "You are right. You are like my father and I am like your child. So as you will advise I will follow. You are guru of many sannyasis." In this way He gave Sarvabhauma some respects. Then he started speaking on Vedanta. Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya began to speak on Vedanta and Caitanya Mahaprabhu began to hear. He continuously heard for seven days. So Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya became little suspicious that this young man is simply hearing and not asking anything. Only hearing. Let me find out what He is listening?

Caitanya Mahaprabhu was simply hearing Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya's presentations but did not say whether it was good or bad. He was just hearing. Astama-divase tahre puche sarvabhauma, on the eighth day, Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya asked Him. What did he asked? Sata dina kara tumi vedanta sravana. [Cc Madhya 6.124]

He said, last seven days I am giving discourse on Vedanta to You and You simply listening silently. Whether it is right or wrong or if You have any question You can ask. What is Your intention to listen quietly? Bhala-manda nahi kaha…Therefore, bujha, ki na bujha, I can't understand whether You are realising anything after hearing Vedanta? Or just listening for the sake of listening? What is it? He became little surprised.

Now Prabhu, Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, Maharaja, I am a great fool. Nor did I ever study Vedanta. Just see. The purpose of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's statement will be disclosed by Him later on. Caitanya Mahaprabhu presented Himself as a fool. But He was not a fool. It will be proved later on in this chapter. Why did He call Himself a fool? The purpose of His statement is that nowadays everyone in this world is a fool. How can they understand Vedanta? This is His intention. Therefore He became the leading representative of all the foolish men. I am a fool. Besides, I haven't studied Vedanta. Tomara ajnate matra kariye sravana [Madhya 6.126]

Since you have said that I have taken sannyasa at a very early age and therefore to protect My sannyasa order I should hear Vedanta. That's why I am hearing. As a matter of fact I am a fool and I haven't studied Vedanta, nor am I qualified to understand Vedanta. sannyasira dharma lagi' sravana matra kari. You have said that it is the duty of a sannyasi to always study Vedanta, therefore I am listening. And

Now He started attacking. Just because you told Me that the duty of a sannyasi is to hear Vedanta, I am sitting and listening. And the meaning you are presenting is beyond My comprehension. Totally incomprehensible. Just see who is a fool then?

Bhattacarya says, all right, I accept that You don't understand Vedanta the way I am explaining. But at least You should have inquired. He smiled and further said, why did You keep quiet? This is very interesting. You are sitting quite, You should have asked.

Bhattacarya was a very wise person. He understood that this boy, though speaking like this, has some other intention. He could understand that You are listening and keeping silent this means it seems You must have some intention in Your mind.

Prabhu kahe,-"sūtrera artha bujhiye nirmala. Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied, Maharaja, I can very easily understand the meaning of the sūtras you are quoting. But I cannot understand anything about your explanation. The meaning of the sūtras I can understand. What is the difficulty of understanding clear statements. Aathato brahma jijnasa. Now in the human form of life one should inquire about what is Brahma: Absolute truth. Everyone can understand this. The answer is given, janmady asya yataḥ: the Absolute truth is that from which everything emanates. [SB 1.1.1] Everyone understands this. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also understands it. Therefore He said that the meaning of the sūtras is very simple and I can understand it. But the way you explain it is completely different. I can't understand it. Prabhu kahe,-"sūtrera artha bujhiye nirmala. Nirmala means very clear. I can understand the meaning of the sūtras very clearly without any doubt.

tomara vyakhya suni' mana haya ta' vikala
[Cc Madhya 6.130]

But by hearing your interpretation My mind is being bewildered. Completely agitated. Do you understand? Now this was a challenge. Prabhu kahe….

Sūtrera artha bhasya kahe prakasiya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, if anyone wants to write a commentary on the sūtras, or an explanation or a note then he supposed to make the meaning of the sūtras more clear. And what kind of comment are you presenting? Tumi, bhasya kaha-sūtrera artha acchadiya. [Cc Madhya 6.131]

And your interpretations are covering the actual meaning of the sūtras. They are not being disclosed. Just like the rays of the sun is self illuminated. There is no need to further illuminate it. But if someone tries to cover it with a host of clouds, please understand, your explanation is like that. Your explanations are completely covering the clear meaning of the sūtras. The sūtras are very clear to understand. There is no difficulty in it. But your interpretation has covered it.

Just like nowadays they interpret Bhagavad-gita. Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ. [Bg 1.1] Some people say, Kuruksetra is this body. You all know this that such interpretations are there. Now you see Dharmaksetra Kuruksetra, Kuruksetra is still present today. The other day we were coming from Amritsar and our train stopped at Kuruksetra station. I immediately told these boys that here is that Kuruksetra station still present today. Yet some people say Kuruksetra means this body. And Dharmaksetra, Even today many people visit Kuruksetra, Dharmaksetra to perform religious duties. In the Vedas it is said, Kuruksetre dharmam yajayet: So Veda means…From long, long ago Kuruksetra has been accepted as a place of pilgrimage. So when Vyasadeva writes in Bhagavad-gita, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre, what is the problem to understand it? But people have different opinions.

Kuruksetra means this, or this, or this. You all are well aware that this type of interpretations on Gita is going on nowadays. Therefore they become old reading Bhagavad-gita but do not understand anything. All they know is how to remain entangled in this material world. In fact they don't take the real meaning and thus don't derive any benefit. Just like Dr. Radhakrsnan has written a commentary on Bhagavad-gita in which he says, especially on the sloka, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65], the meaning is very simple. The Supreme Lord said, "Always think of Me, man-mana bhava mad-bhakta, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me, and in this way you cultivate devotional service then I guarantee you that after this life you will certainly come back to Me."

There is no difficulty in understanding its meaning. But Dr. Radhakrsnan says that what Bhagavan said, man mana bhava, it is not to Krsna but to that which is inside Krsna. Now you see, Krsna has no inside or outside because He is absolute! How can there be inside and outside for the absolute? In the sastra it is stated, abhinnatvan nama-naminoḥ

The Absolute is like that.

The knowledge about the Supreme Personality of Godhead is nondual-one without a second. All one, there is nothing external. The Supreme Lord, the Lord's name, the Lord's body, the Lord's form, the Lord's pastimes, the Lord's associates, the Lord's characteristics, are all Bhagavan. This is the meaning of Absolute. And Dr. Radhakrsnan says there is something else inside Him. A ghost? You understand? By misinterpreting and distorting the actual meaning of the sastra in this way our Indian culture has been lost. All religious principles and knowledge have been vanquished. They wouldn't take the real meaning. They will simply speculate and make research. Nowadays people have started making research on Vedas. Did the big, big sages leave the Vedas to be researched by them? That in future some fools will make research? No. The meaning of the Vedas has to be accepted as it is. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu will explain in the following verses what is the meaning of Vedanta.

Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, sūtrera artha bhasya kahe prakasiya, if at all you want to write a commentary on the sūtras then you should try to make it more clear. Just like dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ, the meaning is clear. Kuruksetra is a place of pilgrimage. And according to the history of Mahabharata the Kauravas and the Panḍavas were cousin brothers. They fought a huge battle there between themselves. The meaning is clear. So where is the room for interpretation? Where is the difficulty? Why Do I bang my head that Kuruksetra means this body, the five Panḍavas means the five senses and so on so on. Why? What is the need? Did Krsna, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ leave it to somebody to interpret? That in future a more intelligent person than Me will come and write a commentary? Was Krsna so fool that instead of speaking the actual truth clearly He left thinking some rascal will come in future and explain it explicitly? Is it reasonable? If at all you like to write a comment then try to explain it clearly. That is called commentary. What is the use of concealing the actual meaning? Suppose a student goes to a teacher and asks, sir, what is the meaning of "vyaghra?"And the teacher says it means "Sardūla: tiger." Now the student became even more confused. Vyaghra means sardūla. He could have said in a simple language that vyaghra means vagha: tiger. Everyone can understand it. But no, he said sardūla. So this type of commentary is completely useless. This is the purport of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's words. What Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants to say is that the meaning of Vedanta is very simple and easy to understand. But your comment I cannot follow. It is covering the actual meaning.

Acchadiya means covering. Whatever you are speaking, you are simply covering. That's all. Sūtrera mukhya artha na karaha vyakhyana. Mukhya and gauna there are two meanings. When the meaning is incomprehensible it is called gauna. Just like in the sastra the example is given, there a ghoshpalli: village of milkmen, in the Ganges. So someone may ask, Ganges is water how can there be a village in it? In that circumastance you can interpret that it is not in the water but Ghoshpalli is by the bank of the Ganges. This meaning is clear. But when the meaning is clear and there is no question of any doubt then there is no need to comment on it. No need to derive a secondary meaning. No need of interpretation. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, sūtrera mukhya artha na karaha…You are not explaining the actual meaning of the sūtras.

You are covering the real meaning by your imagination.

Caitanya Mahaprabhu further says, whatever the Upanisads describe that is the real meaning. There is no need to imagine.

Taking the support of the Upanisads, Vyasadeva has written the Vedanta sūtra. So there is no need of giving any interpretation on them.

He continues, the process of your explanation is to reject the primary or real meaning. You imagine some other meaning and present it. In Sanskrit grammer it is called, abhidha vrtti chaḍi' kara sabdera laksana. By rejecting abhidha vrtti, laksana vrtti…. [Vedavyasa nijakrta sūtrera uddesa kariyachen. Taha chaḍiya ye gaunartha kalpana kara yaya, sabdera abhidha chaḍiya ye laksana kara yaya, taha amahgalajanaka. 'Pratyaksa', 'anumana', 'aitihya' o 'sabda'-ei cariprakara pramanera madhye, sruti-pramana', arthat sabda-pramanai sakalera pradhana.]

[Vedavyasa has given elaborate commentary on his own sūtras. The secondary imaginary meaning derived by interpretation while rejecting his comment, in other words, deriving imaginative meaning by abandoning the direct meaning is harmful. Of the four evidences-direct perception, hypothesis, traditional knowledge and transcendental sound vibration, Vedic evidence or sound vibration alone is the concrete evidence; from Amrta pravaha bhasya. Srila Bhakti Vinoda Thakura]

He explains, There are four kinds of evidences, pratyaksa, abhidha, ah…pratyaksa, aitihya, and sabda pramana. Of these three pramanas the sabda-pramana or Vedic statements is called sabda pramana and that is most correct and accurate. Pratyaksa pramana or direct perception is also not right. Pratyaksa, we see so many things daily but their actual form we cannot…Just like the sun. We see the sun every day. But what do we see? We see it like a small plate. But that is not the sun's actual form. According to sastra the form of the sun…According to Geography, big, big learned men… Surya-siddhanta, and Astronomical experts say that the sun is 14,00,000 times bigger than our planet. But what we see through our senses, pratyaksa-jnana, that knowledge is not complete. Therefore in our sastra sabda-pramana has been accepted as the only concrete evidence. Sabda-pramana, like Vedic statement that is sabda-pramana. We have to accept as it is. Other pramanas like direct perception, hypothesis, traditional knowledge, etc. will not help.

pramanera madhye sruti pramana-pradhana. Among all types of evidences sruti-pramana is the best evidence. sruti ye mukhyartha kahe, sei se pramana. [Cc Madhya 6.135]

Sruti reveals the real meaning by reading which you will immediately understand. It is not proper to misguide people by presenting imaginary meaning. This is the purport of Caitanya Mahaprabh's statement.

Jivera asthi-vistha dui sahkha-gomaya. For example, the stool and bone of a man or an animal are considered impure according to our Vedic rules. Just like when we pass stool in the morning immediately we take a bath. Although it is our stool but because we have touched it our body has become impure. We all know this. Therefore we take a bath to purify ourselves. Similarly while walking in the street if we touch a bone we should take bath. This is scriptural prescription. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is presenting these evidences. Jivera asthi-vistha dui sahkha-gomaya. Sahkha which we blow in the temple of the Supreme Lord is asthi or bone of an animal, and gobar or cow dung is vistha or stool of an animal. Sruti vakye-sei dui maha-pavitra haya. The Vedas declare these two items as pure. Conch-shell is a bone, but if anyone interprets that bone is considered impure and stool is also impure. But how do the Vedas say that cow dung is pure and conch-shell is also pure? How can we accept? But we do accept. The whole Hindu community accepts the Vedic injunctions. Cow dung is smeared on the body of the Supreme Lord and conch-shell is blown after the arati offered to the Lord. So if we bring in logic into consideration that how can the bone and stool be pure? It's impossible. Then that logic will not work. Generally in our daily life we accept things as pure which are recommended by the Vedas. The point of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's statement is that we should accept Vedic injunctions like that. We should neither argue nor comment on that.

Generally we accept everything on the evidence of the Vedas. Whatever knowledge and understanding we have, we gather and accept them from the Vedas. Therefore we should accept the primary meaning of the Vedas and not try to interpret whimsically or make a research and derive other meanings. If someone says that stool and bone are impure then why do the Vedas declare them pure? Let us make a research why and how cow dung, conch-shell are pure? There is no need to make any research. Therefore He says, svataḥ pramana: self evident. Vedic injunction is self evident. In our learned circle, if one wants to establish something he substantiates his claim by presenting Vedic evidence, and his words are accepted without doubt. If you go to law court and if you quote evidence from law book that in such and such case this judgement was given, the judge accepts it. In the same way, there is no need to make any changes in the Vedic injunctions. If you follow them as it is, if you understand as it is, and accept the primary meaning without any interpretation then your study of the Vedas will be fruitful. Otherwise you will be misguided. Vedic literatures do not refer only to the Vedas, but Bhagavad-gita and so on. Just like the Supreme Personality of Godhead said in the Bhagavad-gita,

Why don't we accept it? Everyone accepts Krsna as Bhagavan: God. All the acaryas accept Him. And Bhagavan Himself says that there is no one greater than Me. Arjuna also says,

Arjuna also accepts it. So what is the need of interpreting and changing Krsna's words? Our this Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sampradaya does not approve and accept such interpretations. We accept as it is whatever the Vedic literatures have enjoined. Therefore we are preaching Bhagavad-gita as it is. You might have seen our books. We do not interpret that Kuruksetra means this, Panḍavas means this, and go on speculating. No. Whatever Bhagavan has said. Bhagavan said,

And we also preach the same thing all over the world. This same thing. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. [SB 1.3.28] Krsna is Bhagavan: the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Nowadays people reject Bhagavan. Some say He is dead. Some look for Him here and there. Some say why are you searching after God? All poor people lying in the street are Gods. We do not misinterpret like that. We say Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. All big, big acaryas say this. All our Indian civilisation and culture all big, big acaryas-Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Visnusvami, Sahkaracarya whom we accept as Hindu, they all accept. All big, big acaryas… Just like Sahkaracarya, though he was an impersonalist, he too accepted Krsna as Bhagavan. sa bhagavan svayam krsnaḥ devaki-nandanaḥ. Other vaisnava acaryas like Nimbarka, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnusvami, Caitanya Mahaprabhu,they all accept Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. The scriptures also confirm that Krsna is the original Bhagavan, primeval Bhagavan. Bhagavan has many forms. Advaitam acyutam anadim ananta-rūpam [Bs 5.33]

Bhagavan has unlimited forms, but the original form is aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2] Bhagavan says this. I am the origin of all the demigods.

This is the verdict of Bhagavan Himself and the big, big acaryas also accept Him like that. Then why do we not accept Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead? This is my point. That is why our dharma has dwindled. Bhagavan is present. Bhagavan is standing before you and giving instructions. The instructions are still present today. Great devotees are also present. Then why do we challenge, "Can you show me God? Is there God or not? We don't accept God. God is dead." Why do we speak like that? This we want to stop. This Krsna Consciousness movement establishes that God exists. Why there is no God? God is there and He is present before you. His orders are there. And big, big acaryas who accept Him are also there.

Why you don't accept? This is the subject matter of our preaching. All of you contemplate on this. And after considering you all assist this Krsna Consciousness movement. This movement is spreading. If you assist then it will spread even more. The result will be…India is identified as a poor nation in the world. If you co-operate then this country's rich property-Krsna, if you distribute Him throughout the world the whole world will be benefitted and you will be benefitted. And your life will become successful. This is the mission of our Krsna Consciousness movement. We have come to you. You think about it. Try to understand this movement very nicely and help us. Otherwise the whole country will turn into Naxalites. If you do not teach them the real thing then they will certainly hear Marx and others' words. As they say, Idle brain Devil's workshop. Therefore, kaumara acaret prajno. Prahlada Maharaja has instructed,

From the very young age, just like many of you are here who have not yet married, 15, 16, or 20 years old, they are called kumara. So from young age, in other words, from the school age one should practice Bhagavata-dharma. Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha. Bhagavata-dharma means what is Bhagavan, what am I, what this world is, what is the mutual relationship between me, and, Bhagavan and this world, what will I gain by worshiping the Supreme Lord? To understand all these is called Bhagavata-dharma. Actually these things should be taught in the schools and colleges. But, andha yathandhair upaniyamanas. [SB 7.5.31]

Our leaders want to get rid of Bhagavan altogether. This is not good. If the leaders do want to vanish Bhagavan let them do, but you, the younger generation, try to understand this mission very thoroughly and our Doctor sahib is also present here. Please try to understand the importance of these teachings of this movement. Preach vigoursly if you actually want to make people of the world happy. Without being connected to Bhagavan…

["If one is born in a high family like that of a brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya but is not a devotee of the Lord, all his good qualifications as a brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya are null and void. Indeed, they are considered decorations of a dead body."]

Without being related to Bhagavan if you desire to make your caste, community or nation prosperous there will be no improvement at all. You are thinking now you are independent. You have achived a paradise. But I have travelled all over the world and observed that India has no prestige anywhere. They say it is a country of beggars. Poor country. They don't expect a paisa from us. It has no value. If you carry rupee notes from here you will get nothing in exchange. It has no value. But if you bring American dollar here, its bank value is 7.50 rupees per doller. You can sell it. Simply because that country is prestigious! Your country has no prestige. You are falsely proud that you are now independent and you have become very expert. If you really want to make your country prestigious then join this Krsna Consciousness movement and spread it everywhere. That will make you prestigious.

[41.57]

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna.

Devotee: Kirtana?

Prabhupada: Yes a little kirtana. [Transl. Prasada. Yes, that is good.] [end]