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Prabhupada: ...strength of sastra we are challenging that "You have never gone to the moon planet." Who can do that? The whole world is accepting they have gone to moon planet, and we are challenging, "You have never gone to moon."

[aside:] Hare Krsna. Thank you very much.

Gopala Krsna: Calcutta had called me up this morning. They are expecting about two lakhs' people in Mayapur today and tomorrow. There's a big festival, and Jayapataka Maharaja spoke to me also. He's going to come here next Wednesday.

Prabhupada: Two lakhs' people?

Gopala Krsna: During the next three-, four-day festival...

Prabhupada: What is that festival?

Gopala Krsna: It's... It happens every year at this time.

Prabhupada: What is this time? [break]

Gopala Krsna: Bengali Gitar Gan is ready and Jayapataka Swami is taking delivery of it in the morning. [break]

Prabhupada: Copies. [break] They could not conclude when the battle of Kuruksetra was fought.

Gopala Krsna: They are speculating, though. There is one school which says it wasn't fought in Kuruksetra.

Prabhupada: As soon as there will be one school and other school, that means all of them are rascals. Just like the sun rises from this side. There cannot be two schools. If somebody says, "No, no. Sun rises from this side," if that is school, he's a fool. Sun rises from the eastern side. That's all. That is knowledge. If somebody says, "No, sometimes in the western side, sometimes in the northern side," is that any value? So as soon as there will be many schools, that means the conclusion is not right.

Yasomatinandana: Someone was telling me, and I was telling that if somebody is not following the particular characteristic of a saintly person mentioned in the sastra, they cannot be accepted as a sadhu. So he was trying to prove that some sadhus, so-called, who eat meat, and who are drinking, they were actually great paramahamsas.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Yasomatinandana: And then I... He said that because in the previous ages there is mention of... In the sastras there is mention that there were many rsis and munis who were eating meat.

Prabhupada: He knows them. He is such a rascal that he knows only, and nobody knows. That is the verdict of this Ramakrishna Mission.

Yasomatinandana: They say that they would... These rsis would kill one elephant or something like that, and they would live on him for whole year.

Prabhupada: Where is that information? Where he got this information? You did not challenge?

Yasomatinandana: Well, I said that that rsi and muni must be just like the rsis and munis you are talking about now.

Prabhupada: We don't find any such thing. In this way they have ruined Indian culture by misquoting, by misleading.

Yasomatinandana: And he admitted that Vivekananda smoked ganja and he was eating meat.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yasomatinandana: But for such a soul, he said, there is no conditioning like that. Then, when you quote any verse from Bhagavad-gita contrary to such statement, immediately he would say, "Well, Bhagavad-gita is not the only scripture." [break]

Prabhupada: ...very nicely, without any fail. Dharmaḥ svanusthitaḥ pumsam [SB 1.2.8]. But if he does not become Krsna conscious, then where is the profit? It is simply waste of time and energy, srama eva hi kevalam.

Yasomatinandana: Waste of time.

Prabhupada: Anything, whatever it may be, it doesn't matter. Yei krsna tattva vetta... If he knows the science of Krsna, then he is guru. Yei krsna tattva vetta sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128]. [Transl. You don't eat, you don't sleep, that's all right. But tell me what you know about Krsna. If you cannot speak about Krsna then everything is useless.] [break]

Yasomatinandana: ...people, they are nice pious people, and they have accepted some of these gymnastic people as their guru. So they say, "Oh, our guruji is here. We have to go see our guruji," this, that. So how should we treat to them, or how should we preach to them?

Prabhupada: That you cannot do immediately unless he understands your philosophy. Param drstva nivartate [Bg 2.59]. Unless they understand that this philosophy is better than that, how he can give it up?

Yasomatinandana: Sometimes they even say that "You have your guru and I have my guru. It's all the same thing."

Prabhupada: Yes, and a thief has also a guru. Then that guru is also the same thing. [Transl. A thief also has a guru. So that guru is also all right. All gurus are good if a thief's guru is good.] Here guru means tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasur sreya uttaman [SB 11.3.21]. [Transl. One who wants the ultimate benefit of life, he requires a guru. That is real guru.] Napnuvanti mahatmanam samsiddhim paramam gataḥ. [Bg 8.15]

Yasomatinandana: Isn't there some conditioning between the guru and sisya, that "The guru should be like this and a sisya should be like this"?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yasomatinandana: Not that anybody can say, "I am sisya," and not anybody can say, "I am guru."

Prabhupada: Samsara-dava. You are singing daily. Samsara-davanala-liḍha-loka-tranaya karunya-ghanaghanatvam. One who can deliver from this entanglement of material, miserable condition of life, he is guru. That is the first definition of guru. Samsara-davanala-liḍha-loka-tranaya karunya-ghanaghanatvam, praptasya kalyana-one who has obtained this qualification-vande guroḥ sri caranara..., he is guru.

Yasomatinandana: 'Cause nowadays...

Prabhupada: Nowadays... Nowadays let them talk all nonsense. But this is the definition of guru. "Nowadays the sun is rising on the western side." If somebody says like that, who is going to accept it? "Nowadays." There is no question of "nowadays" and "formerly." The truth is truth always. Hare Krsna. That is Absolute Truth.

[aside:] Jaya.

Yasomatinandana: So many yajnas and sibirs and everything going on, everywhere you see. It's so hard...

Prabhupada: Yajnaiḥ sahkirtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. Those who are very intelligent, those whose brain clear, they, yajnaiḥ sahkirtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ.

What yajnas they will perform? Not possible. Where is the yajnic brahmana?

[break] "Don't talk. I am very busy." [laughter]

[break] ...greatest contribution?

Brahmananda: "The greatest contribution of the Hare Krsna movement is its authorized translations of the Vedic literature." Oh, "The greatest contribution to scholars." No. "The greatest contribution of the Hare Krsna movement is that it is providing to scholars authorized translations of these Vedic literatures."

Prabhupada: That is the remark of a very big professor.

Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, how do we support our challenge that they have not gone to the moon?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee (3): How do we support our challenge to the scientists that they have not actually gone to the moon?

Prabhupada: First proof is that they say that there is no life. That is a foolishness. There is life. Because we find everywhere life; why not in the moon planet? And there are many others. The first challenge is this.

Devotee (3): They say that they have not seen the life, though.

Prabhupada: But what you can see, rascal? Therefore we say you are rascals. Why do you believe your eyes? You cannot see so many things. We don't find any living entity in the ocean. Does it mean there is no living entity? So what is the value of your seeing? That is the defect. They are believing in too much their eyes. Although eyes are... Every sense is imperfect. You can see here: "Oh, we don't find anything. It is all zero." Does it mean the sky is zero? There are millions of planets and millions of living entities. So that is their rascaldom. They think that they are perfect. Whatever they see, that is perfect. That is their mistake. If I say, "No, there is no life. I cannot see," is that very good statement? And in the..., externally you don't find any living entity, but is it void of living entities?

Then why shall I assert that "There is no living... I cannot see"? Is that very good proposal? Therefore they are rascals. There cannot be any place within this universe which is without life. There cannot be. We see there is life even within sand. How you can say there is no life? "Because I cannot see." What is this argument? What you are? You are a rascal. Because you cannot see, therefore we have to accept? First of all we say you are a rascal. And if he says that "I cannot see," has it to be accepted? And the example is there. "I cannot see any life. It is simply water." But there are millions and trillions of life, big, big fish. Where is your perfection of seeing?

Devotee (3): Prabhupada? Why are the big authorities, like the government people...?

Prabhupada: Nobody is authority. That is our first assertion. Nobody is authority. Therefore we have placed "Krsna consciousness." Krsna is only authority. All rascals. That is our first assertion-[aside:] Good morning-that except Krsna there is no authority. And one who follows Krsna, he is authority.

Devotee (3): Why are the so-called scientists trying to make the common people believe that...

Prabhupada: Because they are so-called scientists. You have already explained. Why you are asking? [laughter] You have already explained, "so-called scientists." That's all. They are not scientists; they are so-called scientists.

Devotee (3): Why do they want to fool the people?

Prabhupada: Because you are fool. Because you are fool, therefore you become befooled. We do not become befooled by their words. You are fool; you will be befooled. If you want to remain fool, then you will be befooled. And if you become intelligent, then you will not be befooled. They can befool when there are many fools. If there is no fool they cannot befool. Do you follow this?

Devotee (3): Yes.

Prabhupada: Jaya.

Devotee (3): The scientists, they are also fools.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (3): The scientists are also fools.

Prabhupada: Yes. Mūḍha. That is our definition in the Bhagavad-gita. Na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante naradhamaḥ [Bg 7.15]. So much educated? Mayayapahrta-jnana asuram-bhavam asritaḥ. Their knowledge has no value. The maya has taken away everything.

Indian man (4): [Transl. Hare Krsna, Saheb]

Prabhupada: Mayayapahrta jnana.

[aside:] Hare Krsna.

Indian man (4): This is Jindal. Mohanlalji.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Unless one understands Krsna... Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg 15.15]. Veda means knowledge. So all kinds of knowledge, they are aiming at the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if one does not understand what is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then mayayapahrta-jnana-he has no knowledge. Knowledge means ultimately he must know what is God. That is knowledge. Yei krsna tattva vetta sei guru haya. Anyone who knows Krsna, he becomes guru. Otherwise not. The first test is you may be scientist, philosopher, educationist, whatever you may be, but ask him, "Do you know Krsna?" If he says, "No," then he is a fool. That's all. This is the test. [chuckles] Hare Krsna. So Ambarisa Maharaja, do you agree?

Ambarisa: Yes. It's a good test.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Goldsmith, they take a stone, black stone. Do you know? And they rub the gold on the stone, and they can immediately say whether it is gold or not. So our that stone is Krsna. If anyone knows Krsna, then it is gold. [laughter]

Devotees: Haribol! Jaya Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Otherwise it is bogus. [laughter]

Indian man (5): It is very good.

Prabhupada: Ah, yes. Formerly these goldsmith boys, their father simply taught how to test gold. And as soon as he learns, he opens a shop and he earns thousands and thousands of rupees. No education. Simply by...

Yasomatinandana: Yes. Even today the jewelers' sons, they are expert in knowing diamonds and they make millions of rupees.

Indian man (4): [Transl. Even now the gold merchants are like that. They don't know A.B.C.D. Simply by touching they can tell that this metal has 80 percent or 75 percent gold in it. Take the money. Just by seeing the gold they will tell you it is 90 percent gold.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Our neighbour Ratna Parekh.] This is Indian old fashion. They simply know how to test jewels and gold. That's all. One knowledge makes him rich.

Prabhupada: Avyavasayinam bahu-sakha. And vyavasayayinam-one. From practical point of view, from business point of view also, I started this Krsna conscious business with forty rupees. Now we have forty crores. Who has got such business success? [laughter] Bring anyone. Within ten years. And here is Ambarisa Maharaja. He is ready to give us any money, any amount of money. Ambarisa Maharaja, yes. Whole Ford Company. [laughter] So who has got this business? [aside:] Hare Krsna. Jaya. I think there is no such history in the world, to begin business with forty rupees, and within ten years it becomes forty crores. One cannot imagine even.

Yasomatinandana: Yes.

Prabhupada: [Transl. This is what Nair thought. This fellow is a beggar, from where he will bring fourteen thousands rupees? Just take away whatever he has got. That's all. Finished.]

Indian man (4): [Transl. His policy was like that. Just loot the new people. But he forgot that he himself will be looted. God has looted him.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I mean, nobody could believe. I told him that I have a few thousand rupees I will give you now. Balance I will pay by and by. Who would agree? This man is a beggar. How will he pay fourteen lakhs, twelve lakhs? Wherefrom he will bring? Let me take whatever three, four lakhs he has got. But he was finished. That's what he thought. Every businessman thinks like this.] "You are servant, and wherefrom you will get twelve lakhs of rupees within three years? You cannot get it." [Transl. Now this one has come.] Busy. [aside:] Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] Learn from dog one lesson [they are very faithful to the master]. Very faithful. [break] ...do not see anything now in the sky. Does it mean it is vacant? So what is the value of your seeing?

Brahmananda: There's a philosophy that says that if a tree falls down in a forest and I am not there to see it, then it hasn't happened.

Prabhupada: There is philosophy?

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: So what is that logic? Hmm?

Gopala Krsna: Want to see everything with their own eyes.

Giriraja: They think the existence of the tree is dependent on their sense perception.

Prabhupada: Gladstone or what..., that poet? "Full many flowers' blush unseen." Therefore there is no flower? "Full many flowers' blush unseen." This is foolish philosophy. Now this plane is going. After half an hour it will not be seen. Does it mean it is finished? [laughter] There is no more?

Indian man (7): But also in the sky we can see something. I can see many things. I can see something. It is not vacant space. Only thing, I don't know what it is.

Prabhupada: Then you cannot see the stars. Can you see the stars now?

Indian man (7): No.

Prabhupada: Then can you say there is no star? Then? That means what you cannot see, that is not final. Therefore our Vedic instruction is sastra caksusat [Vedanta-sūtra] You should see through the sastra, not your these useless eyes. These are useless. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. In order to know perfectly, one should go to the guru. And Bhagavad-gita has said,

"One who has seen, go there and learn it." That is the injunction. Don't try to see yourself. That is foolishness. This very word is used, tattva-darsinaḥ, "one who has seen." You have to go there and see through his eyes, through his instructions. That is real seeing.

Gopala Krsna: They're paying you respects, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hmm? Oh.

[aside:] Hare Krsna. Jaya.

Yasomatinandana: No one has any chance against your philosophy. No one has any chance. Many times people start arguing. Within five or ten minutes they are completely calmed down. And after fifteen minutes, "Because we started arguing, we have learned so much from you."

Prabhupada: That is sane man.

Indian man (4): [Transl. The learned men here have nothing to protest. Our country is spoiled because of so many manufactured opinions.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. Other countries they at least accept but these people here they don't accept even.]

Indian man (4): [Transl. Don't accept only. The Panḍitas' do not know. When questioned they drive them away.] [break]

Dr. Patel: ...why I come so early and all that thing. Shall I say, sir?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

That is why I come so early. You may explain them, sir.

Prabhupada: No, you explain.

Dr. Patel: [laughs] It is said in Srimad-Bhagavata that your mind, atmanaḥ prasahga, the sahga. Sahga means attachment.

Prabhupada: Prasahgam.

Dr. Patel: Prasahga and sahga, the same.

Prabhupada: No, no. Prakrsta-rupena sahga. Very tight.

Dr. Patel: Sahga. Very tight sahga, very tight attachment of mind is there always.

Prabhupada: Not mind; of the soul.

Dr. Patel: Atmanaḥ. Because mind and soul, both are... There is always there, ajara, undying. "But if that attachment is made to a sadhu, that becomes moksa-dvaram apavrtam, that becomes opening of the door of moksa." So I come here to sadhusu krtaḥ.

Prabhupada: Similarly, another sloka is made by Rūpa Gosvami. He is praying to Krsna that "As a young man has got attachment for young woman and young woman has got attachment for the young man, similar attachment, when I'll have upon You?" This is very natural to young men and young women, attachment. The whole world is going on on this, what is called, sex attachment. Pumsam striya thuni-bhavam etad. [SB 5.5.8] This material world means they are combined together on the platform of sex. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. So that is a very great attachment. So Rūpa Gosvami is praying, "When I will have the same attachment for You?" Yuvatinam yatha yunoḥ. [From Padma Purana 1.20.19 quoated in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.153] [break]

Dr. Patel: ...have heard something else in Gujarati. Indriyon ne laḍ laḍayomaye kama karacha, "The work that you do for satisfaction of the indriyas, laḍ laḍava... keval isvara ne laḍome to karo to tomare bhakti taichie. That is the bhakti, when you do same action for laḍao laḍ God.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the difference between kama and prema. Kama means worldly attachment, and prema means attachment for God. That's all. In Caitanya-caritamrta it is said, atmendriya-trpti-vancha tara nama kama "When one desires his own sense gratification, that is called kama." And krsnendriya-trpti-vancha dhare prema nama.

Dr. Patel: That is prema.

Prabhupada: That is prema. "When one wants to satisfy Krsna's senses, that is prema."

Dr. Patel: That is called lust and love.

Prabhupada: This is the difference between lust and love. Just like gopi. It looks like kama, but it is prema.

Dr. Patel: They say, sir, that gopis really, they are kamatura [afflicted by lust], and when they touched the sacred feet of Krsna their whole thing was turned into the sacred prema.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Because, you see, every woman loves the husband, but they don't become gopis because the husband hasn't got that qualities like Krsna. Krsna was above tri-gunas, so they became tri-gunatita, all gopis. Actually they were motivated by kama, but when they actually had the source of all prema, touched the feet of Krsna, they converted themselves beyond all the three gunas. Because the God is not within the maya, He is above it, so anything which goes there comes above it. [break]

Prabhupada: ...understanding Krsna's position, if one... Krsna...

Dr. Patel: They are talking nonsense about rasa-lila.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: They are so silly, they don't understand, because they include their own self there. They think that Krsna was just like them, and then they substitute themselves with gopis, what they would do with gopis.

Prabhupada: Param bhavam ajanantaḥ. Avajananti mam mūḍhaḥ, param bhavam ajanantaḥ [Bg 9.11]. Param [Transl. Therefore one has to first understand the transcendental nature then discuss rasa-lila.] Otherwise it is...

Dr. Patel: It is said that gopis were not foolish. They were very intelligent girls, extremely, because they chose what was to be chosen. [break]

Prabhupada: Eternal companion of Krsna. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa pratibhavitabhis tabhir ya eva nija-rūpataya kalabhiḥ [Bs 5.37]. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhava. The gopis are expansion of Krsna's ananda-cinmaya-rasa pleasure potency. Rūpa Gosvami, tyaktva tūrnam asesa-manḍala-pati-srenim sada tucchavat [Sri Sri Saḍ Gosvamy Astaka 4]. [Transl. They renounced the whole.] Tucchavat. But the engagement was gopi-bhava-rasamrtabdhi-lahari. Param drstva nivartate [Bg 2.59].

Dr. Patel: Yes, that is right, sir. Param drstva nivartate. Because the little part of it is remaining there, and that never goes away from communion with God.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Param drsti: experiencing a higher taste is possible by sadhu-sahga.]

Dr. Patel: Hmm. Because they are the agents of param.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Moksa-dvara apavrtam.

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Bhakti without jnana can be practiced. So when there is bhakti, automatically there is jnana.

Without bhakti there is no jnana. But without jnana, bhakti can be practiced.

Devotee: Jaya. Haribol.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Bhakti is independent. Ahaituky apratihata: [unmotivated and uninterrupted]. [SB 1.2.6] Indepentdend. Bhakti is inclusive of jnana, yoga, karma, everything.]

Indian man: [Transl. Bhakti can be practiced without jnana.]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. Jnana is included. That is what he says.]

Prabhupada: Otherwise why Krsna says, striya sūdras tatha vaisyas te 'pi yanti param gatim? [Transl. These people have no knowledge.] Stri, sūdra or vaisya, they are not advanced in knowledge, but Krsna says, striya sūdras tatha vaisyas te 'pi yanti param gatim. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuḥ papa-yonayaḥ [Bg 9.32]. [Transl. What knowledge do the sinful persons have? They don't have knowledge, but] Vasudeve bhagavati bhakti-yogaḥ-prayojitaḥ [SB 1.2.7]. When he applies bhakti-yoga at the lotus feet of Vasudeva, janayaty asu vairagyam. [Transl. The real meaning of knowledge is renunciation. Without renunciation what is meaning of knowledge?]

Dr. Patel: Jnana means only God is right, Krsna is right, and all this is wrong.

Prabhupada: No, jnana means... Real jnana means "We don't want this material world." That is jnana. That is vairagya. Because people are attached to this material world, and jnana means completely detached. Because he's suffering. On account of this attachment, he's taking repeatedly birth, birth, birth, death, birth, death, birth. So jnana means to get release from this repetition of birth and death.

Dr. Patel: That is because the people have atma-buddhi and kunape tri-dhatuke.

Prabhupada: These rascals talk of jnana, but they keep full attachment for this material world.

Dr. Patel: The kunape tri-dhatuke. [SB 10.84.13]

Prabhupada: [Transl. It is like dog's tail. It will remain bent always no matter how hard you try to straighten by applying ghee on it. This is the point.]

Indian man (4): [Transl. Never becomes straight.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Never. What is the value of such knowledge? Knowledge means renunciation.] Jnana-vairagyam. One must feel disgusted in this material world, repetition of birth and death. That is jnana. If one is not disgusted-he still thinks it is very nice to take birth and die-then where is jnana? There is no jnana. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's disciples said, ara nare bapa. Ara nare bapa . [Transl. You also say, no more sir, no? I don't want any more of this, my Lord. That is real renunciation. Ara nare bapa.]

Dr. Patel: No, even, you see, sir, this attraction to the other sex is so strong and great it is very difficult for human beings to get relief.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is to be explained. That is explained, Bhagavad-gita,

This is the way.

[aside:] Hare Krsna. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: Extremely difficult, that even man like Gautama Buddha had several times come back to see his child and son when he left his house, more than half a dozen times, come and go, come and go. Finally he closed his eyes and ran away. A man of that type. And for ordinary human beings it is very difficult.

Prabhupada: No, it is not difficult. Therefore vanaprastha is recommended, that "Go out of home, remain in the tirtha-sthana and again come, see your children. Again go. Then take sannyasa.

Dr. Patel: Tapering it.

Prabhupada: Yes. [Transl. Even big, big demigods are entangled in this business. Heavenly pleasures. Nandana-kanana: celestial forests.They are all entangled.]

Dr. Patel: That is why devata-loka is not a place from where you can have a release. It is from human life that you can have moksa. Devatas cannot get it.

Prabhupada: No, no, human... Devatas cannot, because they have got enough of material enjoyment.

Dr. Patel: The Americans.

Prabhupada: Just like America... [laughs] Americans have not even one percent. They are many thousands times opulent, the demigods. So it is very difficult. Just like here, for a very rich man to take to Krsna consciousness is very difficult. That is a disquali...

[Transl. If you have too much sense enjoyment and opulence then you will not have attraction for the Supreme Lord. Therefore renunciation is required.] Voluntarily sannyasa. All big, big kings in India, voluntarily: "Eh! Give it! Kick it out!" Maharaja Bharata, at the age of twenty-four years, he left everything-young wife, children, kingdom, whole world-gave it up. This is Indian culture, vairagya. Yudhisthira Maharaja [Transl. engaged in fighting and ruling but] as soon as the grandson, Maharaja Pariksit, was major: "Take it. We are going." That is the required.

[Transl. Until one is shot dead he will not renounce.] Even Mahatma [Gandhi]. He declared himself mahatma. He is such a mahatma that unless he was killed by goli [bullet[, he was not leaving anything. He was not prepared. This is mahatma, Kali-yūga ka mahatma: [mahatma of kali-yuga]. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritaḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso [Bg 9.13].

[Transl. That is mahatma. And to the last point of death] politics, politics, politics. [Transl. Our country, our nation, our people, is that a mahatma? This is going on. [break]…that is also Krsna's will. Gandhi's] ...nonviolence theory. Krsna said, "You will die by violence. Nonviolence... There cannot be nonviolence. You wanted to prove nonviolence from Bhagavad-gita and criticize Me, Krsna. All right, you die." Hare Krsna.

Dr. Patel: But it was Nehru who said that Krsna was a war-mongerer. Mr. Nehru, he was more...

Prabhupada: Nehru is... What is his value?

Dr. Patel: He said, "Krsna is the greatest war-mongerer."

Prabhupada: Nehru and company are praised... That is stated in the Srimad-Bhag... Sva-viḍ-varahostra-kharaiḥ samstutaḥ purusaḥ pasuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. Purusaḥ pasuḥ. A big animal is being eulogized by small animals. Does it mean a big animal is a human being? He's animal.

Dr. Patel: I think he had not understood exactly.

Prabhupada: What he understood?

Dr. Patel: The second adhyaya, Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: He never knew what is Gita. He plainly...

Yasomatinandana: He was an atheist.

Prabhupada: In America, when he went, somebody requested, "You explain something of Gita." He said, "I do not know much about Gita." He explained. He frankly admitted that "I do not know." His excuse was like that. And he did not know anything. He thought, "Overnight, if I make my country like America, that is success." And he constructed a few skyscraper building, or big, big building in New Delhi, and he thought, "My country is like that." Therefore, when President Eisenhower came, he wanted to see the village. And as soon as he saw the village, the secret was out.

Dr. Patel: No, that man was a dreamer rather than a practical man. Practical man was only Sardar Patel.

Prabhupada: Jaya.

[break] Those who are intelligent Indians, they should combine together and present Indian culture as it is. Then the country will be glorified. [aside:] Hare Krsna.

[break] ..sarthaka kari kara para-upakara . This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's. The whole world is in darkness. Give them some light. First of all you yourself take light; then you distribute.

[japa] [break] ...letter, that "Now you have got sva-rajya [independent country], you give up this nonsense. Preach Bhagavad-gita. Otherwise you will meet the fate of Mussolini." And actually it was done.

Yasomatinandana: It seems that it is better that he did not preach Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yasomatinandana: With his understanding.

Prabhupada: Of course, one cannot preach Bhagavad-gita unless he is empowered by Krsna. That is not possible. Krsna sakti vina nahe nama pracarana [Cc Antya 7.11]. It is not possible. [Aside:] You are leaving? [end]