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Bhagavata: ...for the Gaura Pūrnima festival this year.

Prabhupada: Where?

Bhagavata: On the land at the Caitanya Matha, at Caitanya Mahaprabhu's birth site. [break]

Dr. Patel: ...to me.

Prabhupada: No, not to you. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: You were explaining to me.

Prabhupada: No. No, no. I am explaining to everyone that "Whose business he struck?" That is the way. [Bengali proverb. Sabhara madhye hala katha yara katha tara prane vyatha.] ...that "In the assembly there is some talks, but the talks which is concerned to somebody, he becomes sorry."

Dr. Patel: You did not concern me, but I wanted to know the explanation.

Prabhupada: No. The explanation... [laughter]

Dr. Patel: What are these blasphemous all the time?

Prabhupada: Now this doll should be displayed: that laboratory, they are testing urine, stool, and somebody is asking, "Here is a dead man. Why don't you test the urine and stool of this dead man and give him some injection?" This kind of doll should be displayed. The people will be interested. So I will give you suggestion. Not that stereotyped: "If one is doing something, I have to follow that." You should do something...

Bhagavata: Unique.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted. It is already there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Bhagavata: Things show... Dolls displaying practical examples of the philosophy.

Prabhupada: Yes. There are so many things in the Srimad-Bhagavata. Just like a dog is swimming, and somebody captures the tail of the dog and he thinks that "The dog will help me to cross the ocean." This kind of... So everyone is trying for liberation, but they are catching the tail of a dog for liberation.

Dr. Patel: He must get the ship in the form of God's name. Hmm?

Prabhupada: In this way, practical instruction. Taking to yoga system, karma system, this system, that system, but he does not know that these are like the dog's tail. Nobody...

Dr. Patel: [laughing] We are criticizing you.

Prabhupada: No, it is practically. Yes. You cannot cross over the sea by capturing the tail of a dog because you see the dog is swimming. So all this karma, jnana, yoga, they are all failure. It is just like dog tail. You cannot cross over the nescience by capturing dog's tail. You must capture the lotus feet of Krsna. Tan aham... [Bg 16.19] Eh?

Yasomatinandana: Esa tat...

Prabhupada: No. Samuddharta mrtyu-samsara-sagarat [Bg 12.7]. And explain the Bhagavad-gita sloka. Mrtyu-samsara-sagarat. From this ocean of birth and death, if one wants to be saved, he must come to Krsna, not to the dog's tail.

Dr. Patel: Come to the ship of Krsna. That is what we are criticizing.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: [laughing] That you are not coming to the point of the..., quickly.

Prabhupada: Yes. In this kind of-Bhagavad-gita sloka, Bhagavata sloka, and doll exhibition. So you prepare. I will give you the suggestion.

Dr. Patel: Sir, I have one point to ask you, that Vyasa Bhagavan was not satisfied doing all these things, and he finally composed the Bhagavatam. But even Mahabharata can be called equal to any of them. Mahabharata, with the Bhagavad-gita in... With the Vidura-niti, with the Visnu-sahasra-nama and all these things can be equal to any other...

Prabhupada: Stri-sūdra-dvija-bandhūnam [SB 1.4.25]. It is meant for less intelligent class of men: stri, woman; sūdra; and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu means persons who are born in high family but they have no education. Just like a man born in brahmana family...

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bandhu.

Prabhupada: ...but without education, without qualification, he wants to become a brahmana. They are called brahma-bandhu or dvija-bandhu. So Mahabharata is meant for the..., these persons: stri-sūdra-dvija-bandhūnam. They cannot understand directly the Vedic injunctions, therefore it is simplified in a history. Mahabharata is the history. History and stories, ordinary people they can read with interest. But those who are advanced, they want higher philosophical thoughts. That is Srimad-Bhagavatam. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra paramo nirmatsaranam vastava-vastu vedyam [SB 1.1.2]. Nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam idam [SB 1.1.3]. It is meant for higher class. So there are different literatures for different persons. Why there are eighteen Puranas: sattvika, rajasika, tamasika? Those who are tamasika, for them it is advised...

Dr. Patel: Devi Purana.

Prabhupada: Yes. "Yes, you can eat meat. There is no harm. But you get it sacrificed before Goddess Kali." But this is not meant for the high-class brahmana. This is meant for the third-class butcher. But still, he is induced to accept some authority. In this way there are Puranas. Somebody is recommended to worship Lord Siva, somebody is recommended to worship Kali, Durga, Sarasvati, many demigods. But Narada Muni chastised his disciple that "You have done wrong. Why you have recommended all these things?" Jugupsitam. [SB 1.5.15] That is said there, that "People will take your authority, and they will be engaged in worshiping different demigods." Actually that is not required. Then he compiled Srimad-Bhagavatam, only the Supreme Lord worshiped. The same thing as Krsna explained, mam ekam. That is success. So Vyasadeva was very much...

Dr. Patel: But, sir, mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66], He has already said in Mahabharata also, you know?

Prabhupada: Hmm? Yes.

Dr. Patel: He composed Mahabharata much before he composed Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Mahabharata... Gita is part of Mahabharata.

Dr. Patel: That is what I said. He has already mentioned that, mam ekam saranam vraja.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: "Those people who are worshiping other devas, they go to the other devatas' house, and those who worship Me, they come to Me." Hmm?

Prabhupada: So that is explained in Srimad-Bhagavata. So if Tirtha Maharaja is displaying...

Bhagavata: Yes, Jayapataka Maharaja told me he was there. He saw the construction, and it's going to be two stories high, 75 feet long by 30 feet wide, and they're going to have dolls on both floors, Caitanya-lila.

Prabhupada: Hmm. That's all right. You can do.

Bhagavata: But we should make different lilas, different dolls.

Prabhupada: Yes. Modern men will understand Srimad-Bhagavatam by display of dolls.

Dr. Patel: What are the dolls you are talking about all this time? We don't... I don't understand, sir. What it means?

Prabhupada: Dolls means the Bhagavata sloka explained by doll display. Just like in your medical science there are sometimes...

Dr. Patel: Models.

Prabhupada: Models, yes.

Dr. Patel: Just you are doing pictures in your Bhagavata...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Like that, with a models.

Prabhupada: Models. Yes, exactly the word, model. You can display... Everything is there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, this anatomic, physiologic, how the child is growing within the womb of his mother.

Bhagavata: Different...

Prabhupada: Yes. One day, fifth day, and like that. In seven months how it is developed. Everything is there in the Srimad-Bhagavata. Then you can display the hell, different hells.

Giriraja: Different hells.

Bhagavata: Hells. Oh, Fifth Canto.

Prabhupada: Yes. How one is going by cheating others, by stealing. So everything. You can display, what is called? That planetary system? Eh?

Dr. Patel: Planetarium?

Prabhupada: Planetarium. According to planetarium.

Dr. Patel: They have got a big planetarium in Calcutta.

Prabhupada: Yes, they have got, but we have also got. So it is little difference. Just like we are calculating that the sun is the beginning of the planets, sun, then moon. Therefore we say "Sunday, Monday." This is very quite reasonable. Tuesday.

Dr. Patel: And Tuesday is next word, because Mahgala.

Prabhupada: Yes. And planet is 1,006,000 miles above, above. And Saturday, Saturn, is the last. So now sun is calculated to be 93,000,000's miles from earth, and if the moon is still further 1,600,000, then it becomes about fifteen hundred thousand miles. No. Fifteen million miles. So how they are going, in four days, fifteen millions?

Dr. Patel: You ask me?

Prabhupada: Yes. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Well, sir, there is no going and coming. All are what we are, wherever.

Prabhupada: No, no. That is another thing. That is another thing, that with their this sputnik, how they can go in four days fifteen millions miles?

Dr. Patel: You see, in the cosmos, the whole cosmos is as big... Modern scientists understand it. They wheeled up by what we call the force of attraction and repulsion. When you go in between the two, there is no attraction, repulsion. Then you just have a dish, and it goes on.

Prabhupada: No, no. Hare Krsna.

Bhagavata: So we should display the real planetary system...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavata: As it really exists.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavata: And then we can put underneath explanations in Bengali and English.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Dr. Patel: In Sanskrit and English, because Sanskrit contains Bengali and Gujarati and all.

Prabhupada: Yes. That's a good idea, good idea.

Dr. Patel: I go, sir.

Prabhupada: Hmm? Time is up? Hare Krsna.

[break] ...many things to be displayed by these models, and we can utilize that.

Bhagavata: Like the pictures we have in the Bhagavatam and the Gita, then we can make them into doll displays, some of those pictures.

Prabhupada: But the idea was that in our big temple I wanted to display.

Bhagavata: Oh. You didn't want a separate building.

Prabhupada: No. We wanted to display where is...

Passerby: Oh, haribol!

Prabhupada: The Vaikuntha planet, where is the Goloka planet, where is this material world-in this way.

Bhagavata: So if that's what you want, then we should not make a permanent structure? We should make some temporary structure, like last year.

Prabhupada: That you decide yourself.

Bhagavata: So we should engage the local dollmakers in doing this.

Prabhupada: First of all you have your place; then make dolls. But dolls should not be exactly in the same way. But when you make actually, then I will give you how the models should be made. Now, how to do, where to do, that, it is your business. You decide, some of yourself, and do the needful.

[to Saurabha:] You have not yet done any plan for the big temple?

Saurabha: I have been asking Jayapataka for about one year to please send me some plan of the land so that I can place all these buildings, because there is no...

Gopala Krsna He's getting it done now.

Bhagavata: The blueprints are done. Jayapataka is revising them now. They are in Mayapur. He is reviewing all the blueprints. They are all done. And when they are finished... When he finishes reviewing them, then we'll have them sent here immediately. I just sent them to Mayapur.

Saurabha: As soon as I get the plans, I will make immediately, finish everything. We can make a master plan for the whole situation.

Prabhupada: So ask him to send immediately site plan and begin.

Saurabha: Yes.

Prabhupada: And then others things will be there. Hare Krsna. Tirtha Maharaja, for the last fifty years, he did not do anything. Now he is afraid. You know Krsna dasa Babaji?

Bhagavata: In Vrndavana.

Prabhupada: Yes. He approached me that "You just have a big hall in the Yogapitha." I immediately accepted, that "Yes, if you give us the charge we can spend immediately ten lakhs." [chuckles] So Sridhara Maharaja has said that "If it is gone to Swami Maharaja, then there will be no trace of Tirtha Maharaja." [chuckles] Therefore he is trying for that. So I think we shall have, according to our original plan, the temple, and in that temple we shall display all these dolls: "Here is Vaikuntha-loka, here is this loka, this loka, this loka." That will be... [break] ...we make some arrangement for exhibition of our books very nicely.

Gopala Krsna: We're going to have booths in Mayapur.

Prabhupada: Yes. That Tirtha Maharaja will not be able to show.

Gopala Krsna: Never. [laughter]

Prabhupada: He has no capacity.

Yasomatinandana: He will display only one Brahma-samhita, that also by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.

Bhagavata: So we will make a very nice book display. I will see that there is a very nice book display, where the Caitanya-caritamrtas and the Bhagavatams displayed.

[break] ...the governor of Bengal, and he was quite congenial. He was friendly. And he agreed that if we contact him and make the proper arrangements he might come and see you there when you come to Mayapur.

Prabhupada: Very nice.

Bhagavata: I was thinking if we had him for the festival, to come to the festival, that would be a very prestigious...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Why don't you arrange for that? You have to arrange. Yes. [break] ...king. Their constitution, first word is, "The king can do no wrong." Yes, that is the Vedic system. Suppose a king beheads somebody by his own sword, as it was being done. Nobody can charge him that "Without any trial he has killed this man." No. Whatever he does... Just like we take Krsna, apapa viddham. Krsna is never touched with any sinful activities. Apapa-viddham. Tejiyasam na dosaya [SB 10.33.29]. Just as the sun, because it is very, very powerful, nothing can infect it. These are the dangers already there. So of course, if you want to keep one in very exalted post, at the same time, if you want to find fault with him, then that is not good. That is not good. That is also stated, that arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matiḥ [Padma Purana]. If somebody thinks that the Deity is made of stone and he criticizes, that is not allowed. If one thinks spiritual master as ordinary human being, that is not allowed. Arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matiḥ. So those who are in highly exalted post of the state, you cannot find out fault with him. That is real Vedic way. Otherwise, if he is taken as ordinary citizen, then he is... What is the meaning of his exalted post?

Indian man: [Transl. But Prabhupada, he can be removed at any time. He is not permanent, no?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, so long he is in that position,] you cannot find out fault with him. As like in the court, if you find out some fault with the judge, you will be punished immediately-"Contempt of court." You cannot do that. It will be punished, because while he is on the seat of the judge, if somebody finds out fault, then his position will be lower. That is not good. I think the judgment is right. Three persons-the president, prime minister and the speaker-cannot be..., what is called?

Indian man (2): [Transl. The constitution has changed that this kind of decision cannot be challenged or taken to court. If there is any dreaded criminal, he will be tried by the parliament only.]

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Parliament can do, that "We have no faith." What is called? "No confidence."

Indian man (2): No confidence, yes.

Prabhupada: "No confidence resolution." The Parliament has not done. "No confidence." So how the court can decide? [break] An open fact that this election... All elections are done illegally. So why this poor prime minister is captured? Everyone does.

Indian man: [Transl. Moreover, he didn't make such a big mistake.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, mistakes he did make. But he came to power by election as everybody else does. What is wrong in it?]

Indian man: [Transl. Another thing, PrabhupadaJi, is in India the opposition party is not strong enough to fight the congress. The only way they can win is by forming a strong opposition party.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. But there is no such party as yet.]

Indian man: [Transl. No such party. What can Indira Gandhi do? Whether she is good or bad, after all she is somehow running the country. If she goes everything will be ruined.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. So many came, RSS, Hindu sabha, and so many…]

Indian man: [Transl. Everyone wants an exalted chair. Everyone wants to become the Prime minister or the President. Every person. Sixty crore population wants to become Prime minister.] [break]

Prabhupada: Military police.

Indian man (2): Yes, Prabhupada. [Transl. Prabhupadaji, should I send the car in the morning?] [break]

Prabhupada: ...is occupying very exalted post, even in this material world, he is favored by Krsna. Sanatana Gosvami, when the Nawab said that "I shall arrest you," then he replied that "You are representative of God, so if you arrest me I have no objection." He said that. He was Muhammadan, and he was a Hindu brahmana. He never felt that "How the Muhammadan can arrest me?" No. He said that "You are representative of God, because you are in such exalted post." [aside:] Hare Krsna. Jaya. Krsna also says, "Anyone who is, materially even, very opulent, that means he has got some power." [aside:] Hare Krsna. Hare Krsna. Jaya.

Indian man: [Transl. In Bangladesh…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes.]

Indian man: [Transl. There cannot be counter coup. If they keep good relation with India otherwise…There is very remote chance of counter coup, because they have public support, student support and military support as well.] [break]

Prabhupada: [Transl. The counter coup that they have done, what's called, cook, coup…?]

[end]