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Prabhupada: ...in politics, how to treat with enemies, how to treat with friends, how to make... In politics there are so many things, diplomacy. So he said, "What is this nonsense? Everyone should be Krsna conscious. They are all equal." His father became angry. What is that?

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Oh.

Bhagavata: He said it is all nonsense.

Prabhupada: Yes. For a devotee, these politics, diplomacy, these are nonsense. But sometimes they have to do sathe sathyam samacaret. [Canakya Panḍita] [deal with a knave as a knave]

[aside:] Hare Krsna.

Bhagavata: "One should never trust a politician or a woman." [break]

Devotee in distance: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Jaya.

Devotee (1): Are the animals complacent with their hellish condition of life?

Prabhupada: Animal?

Devotee (1): Yes. Like the dog. Is he happy to be a dog?

Prahupada: Yes. Everyone is happy.

Dr. Patel: There is one story in regard to this, sir, that... [break]

Prabhupada: The answer? You have got the answer?

Devotee (1): Excuse me?

Dr. Patel: No. He was not. He was not attentive. I answered on his behalf with that story.

Bhagavata: Once that happened to Indra, isn't it, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Anyone, in any condition of life, he thinks that he is happy. That is maya.

Dr. Patel: If all the five holes of indriyas are made to look outside, get our pleasure from out. If they have turned within and get pleasure from yourself, then you are happy. That is in Kathopanisad.

Prabhupada: You can see practically. People are living in, what is called, that zone, where everything is ice?

Devotees: The North Pole.

Prabhupada: They are thinking happy. They do not come out.

Bhagavata: Eskimos.

Prabhupada: I have got practical experience. In my childhood I used to go with my father for some purchasing some gehum [wheat] flour in the interior districts. So there was one servant engaged. One day he did not come. So my father asked me, "He is living in there, in that cottage. You can go and ask him." So I went to his cottage. Practically there was no roof, and rain was dropping. So I saw him in a very bad condition. Then I asked him, "Why don't you come to Calcutta with us?" So he replied, "No, sir, we cannot go, leaving home. [laughter] This is home." I have got practical experience. "Home sweet home." Janani janma-bhumis ca svargad api gariyasi [Valmiki Ramayana] Everyone is thinking that his birthplace and his mother is better than the heaven. That is the psychology. So everyone, however abominable... Everyone is living in abominable condition. That's a fact. But everyone is thinking that "Who is happier than me?" Everyone. This is called maya. Unless he thinks, he cannot live.

Devotee (1): What is the throwing potency of maya?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee (1): It is described that there are two potencies of maya.

Dr. Patel: Mam eva prapadyante mayam etan taranti te [Bg 7.14].

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee (1): What is an example of the throwing potency of maya?

Prabhupada: Throwing potency means somebody comes to take Krsna consciousness and maya will dictate, "Why you have come here? Go and enjoy life outside." And he goes away. That is throwing.

Dr. Patel: Crying?

Prabhupada: Throwing, that gets him out. This is throwing. And this is called... What is called? The Sanskrit? Praksepatmika [throwing potency].

Dr. Patel: Prakseka?

Prabhupada: Praksepatmika.

Dr. Patel: Oh, Praksepatmika.

Prabhupada: Yes. And another is avaranatmika. [covering potency]

Dr. Patel: Avarana.

Prabhupada: Avarana. He is in the most abominable condition, and he is thinking he is very happy. This is avaranatmika, covering him to see in the real position. Otherwise we are asking everyone that "You come here. I am giving you room. Take prasadam. Chant Hare Krsna. Read these books." "No. Why shall I come?" What is the difficulty here? But nobody will come. He will rot in the home-anxiety-how to maintain, how to... This is going on. This is called praksepatmika, avaranatmika. He will prefer rotting as hog and dog, but he will never prefer to live as Krsna conscious. This is maya. So many people are there on the beach. You invite them, "Please come to our place. Live nicely. We shall give you nice room, nice prasadam. Chant Hare Krsna." Nobody will come.

Dr. Patel: It is good that they are not coming. Otherwise you won't have this place...

Prabhupada: No, no. We have enough place. We are not depending on Dr. Patel, but Krsna. [laughter]

Devotees: Haribol! Haribol!

Dr. Patel: You rate me very badly.

Prabhupada: No, because you are saying like that. You do not know that I started this business without nothing, you see, with practical nothing. I offered Mr. Nair that "I will give you two lakhs, and the balance I'll give you in three years." So who will believe? "He is a beggar, and he promises to give me fifteen lakhs of rupees within three years." Who will believe that? He knew that "He will not be able to pay. So whatever two lakhs, three lakhs he gives, that will be mine. That's all. Bas." And I was thinking, "He is such a nice gentleman that he will take money, little, little, and I will collect and pay. He is a nice gentleman," I was thinking. And he was thinking, "He's a great fool, [laughter] that he is offering me two lakhs, three lakhs, and he will never be able to pay me balance." So this was the transaction beginning.

Dr. Patel: He had made such transaction before also, I think, two, three fellows.

Prabhupada: Yes. He knew that. I thought, "He is a very nice man. He'll take money one after another, so let me take it." This was the beginning.

Dr. Patel: I think he died before you completed the transaction. He died, no?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. So many homeless people are roaming here,] all of them I will one day drive and then you'll...

Prabhupada: But as soon as they will not get tea, they will go away. You may bring all the Bombay residents, and when they will see there is no tea, they will go away. [laughter]

Nayanabhirama: Srila Prabhupada, that happened in Vrndavana once.

Prabhupada: I know that. That is the trouble.

Bhagavata: They would not stay in the guesthouse because they could not make their tea.

Nayanabhirama: He said, "Without tea I cannot live." So he went away.

Dr. Patel: Where? Here, this Vrndavana?

Prabhupada: No, that I have allowed, that they can make their own tea.

Dr. Patel: You don't allow the tea here in the...?

Prabhupada: No.

Brahmananda: They can make their own tea. There's a special area for that.

Dr. Patel: Many of these boys must have taking tea in past. How they could stop it?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Dr. Patel: Many of them must be taking...

Prabhupada: No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: Not now; before.

Prabhupada: Oh, before they are taking anything. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: How could they stop it? By virtue of the strength of the mind. That man, if he has got no strength of mind, he should not...

Prabhupada: That is Krsna conscious. The government spent millions of dollars to stop LSD habit. But when they come to me, I say, "You cannot do it"; they immediately stop. Therefore U.S. government is sympathetic to this movement. They are surprised how these drug-addicted men are becoming servant of Krsna. One Dr. Judah, he has written a book about us, that the "wonderful..."

Dr. Patel: LSD begets a condition of the mind just like...

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be...

Dr. Patel: ...nirvikalpa-samadhi. [undeviated trance] One man told me that's a very good... [laughing] I say you be in there.

Prabhupada: That is another nonsense. Nonsense. Fools.

Dr. Patel: Nirvikalpa-samadhi. But they must be getting some sort of condition of the mind, though temporary. That is why they must have turned to that, no?

Prabhupada: There is no concession.

Dr. Patel: [to devotee:] Were you having the experience?

Prabhupada: First of all you must give it up. Our philosophy is first of all you must give it up, all these bad habits.

Dr. Patel: That is the first condition among Vaisnavas, that they should not have any of these, madaka, charas, ganja [wine, hashish, hemp].

Prabhupada: Illicit sex, then meat-eating. [aside:] Hare Krsna. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. On Sunday we supposed to meet. Are you coming? I thought you would come.]

Prabhupada: Jaya. Jaya. Hare Krsna. [break]

Bhagavata: ...leaving the four sinful activities. Then one can develop Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: No, this is practicing. This is practicing. Unless one is... Yesam tu anta-gatam papam [Bg 7.28]. Unless one is free from sinful activities, one cannot understand God. It is not possible. God is not so cheap.

Dr. Patel: Practice and vairagya both are necessary, not only vairagya. No?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Dr. Patel: Practice and vairagya both are necessary.

Prabhupada: Vairagya means when you are not addicted to sinful life. That is vairagya. People have got attachment for sinful activities.

[break] ...deve bhagavati bhakti-yoga-prayojitaḥ, janayaty asu vairagyam [SB 1.2.7]. That is the vairagya way. You cannot practice vairagya without Vasudeva's shelter.

Dr. Patel: Vairagya generates by extreme bhakti or by extreme knowledge. Not otherwise. Knowledge is generated by bhakti, no doubt, but then you must have complete knowledge of what is this and what is that.

Prabhupada: Without bhakti, knowledge is artificial, because knowledge means to accept the Supreme Lord as Supreme. That is knowledge.

Dr. Patel: That is knowledge. And then this is all falsehood. From that knowledge, when you know that this is all false, then it sort of, in a sense, generated in you, to become averse to these things.

Prabhupada: That knowledge is described in the Bhagavad-gita, mayayapahrta-jnana [Bg 7.15]. The so-called knowledge is useless. It has no value. mayayapahrta-jnana. What is the test? Na mam prapadyante: "If he had knowledge, he would have surrendered to Me," but he does not do so.

Dr. Patel: Jnanavan mam prapadyante. That is the knowledge. Jnana means knowledge. That knowledge is the Supreme.

Prabhupada: But that knowledge means actually jnanavan. Otherwise it is false knowledge. Mayayapahrta-jnana. If you do not know what is God, then what is the meaning of your knowledge?

Bhagavata: You explain in the Gita that,

Prabhupada: [aside:] Hare Krsna. That is knowledge. Therefore so many mahatmas, sadhus, yogis, they are all useless, all useless, because they have no bhakti. Simply artificially cheating people. [break]

Indian man (1): [Transl. And people like such persons more.]

Prabhupada: This is a society of cheaters and cheated. If you want to be cheated, there are many cheaters who will come and cheat you. That's all.

Bhagavata: Just like the Guru Maharaj-ji. Now the mother is denouncing. She is saying he is no more qualified to be Bhagavan. Now his brother, he is Bhagavan.

Prabhupada: That's all, anyway, a third class.

Dr. Patel: It is all humbug. I think we should not talk about this. Talk something about Bhagavad-gita and Bhagavat. Then, sir?

Prabhupada: Yes. These people are third-class men. Hare Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Mayam etan taranti te

Prabhupada: [aside:] Jaya. Hare Krsna. [break] ...explained in Bhagavad-gita. Unfortunately the rascals will not take it. That is the difficulty.

Dr. Patel: In my time, when, your time, I mean our time, in the school there was a compulsion of learning the Mahabharata and Ramayana. Now these modern principals, they don't know anything about it. Absolutely there is no knowledge. My daughter said, "What is Ramayana?" I had to look at a English edition of Ramayana and give her Mahabharata. That is what they are teaching now in the schools. So this race is going bankrupt. What about knowing about Bhagavad-gita and Bhagavata? They don't know simple Mahabharata.

Prabhupada: [break] ...city one house with twenty rooms on the riverside.

Dr. Patel: I was told that Lasteri's house, you know, sir, Charpak Lasteri.

Prabhupada: What do you think will be the price?

Dr. Patel: I don't know about price, sir. But their prices are as high as in Bombay. Whose is this house? Who is the owner? [break]

Prabhupada: ...jivanti. The trees, they live many, many hundreds of thousands of years more than men.

Dr. Patel: Yes.

Prabhupada: Does it mean he is sinless? [laughter]

Dr. Patel: He's a good man. They are doing good. They are doing good.

Prabhupada: He is... It is most condemned life, the trees. They cannot move one inch. They have to suffer all these natural disturbances. One who is too much sinful, he is condemned to stand up here for five thousand years.

Dr. Patel: [aside:] [Transl. Yes. Just like when you make a mistake in the school the teacher makes you stand up.] Dvaraka, sir. You had a plan to go to Dvaraka.

Prabhupada: [Transl. You take me. I will go. Whenever you say I will go.] Hare Krsna.

Dr. Patel: You have to take me. You told me you will take me. I am waiting for it.

Bhagavata: When I was in Dvaraka I stayed at the Birla guesthouse, and they said that any time you come you can stay there in Mr. Birla's room, right on the ocean front, very nice room.

Prabhupada: This time is good, Dvaraka?

Dr. Patel: We can go by train to Jamnagara. Jamnagara we have to take a car.

Bhagavata: We have to take a long trip in the car from Jamnagara to Dvaraka.

Dr. Patel: Ten miles. Not more than that.

[indistinct-many speaking at once] [break]

Prabhupada: ...like this place. And I have seen London, New York. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: I have not seen Haridvara myself.

Bhagavata: Haridvara, there is also very new asrama that was built up there only a few years ago called Africa asrama, in Haridwar. And the sannyasi there is very well known to me, and he also said any time you come you can stay there at his place. Very nice asrama.

Dr. Patel: Haridwar there are many places to stay.

Bhagavata: Yes. Many, many.

Indian man (2): Even this, our Vile parle sannyasi-asrama people have got a very big area there. Nearly a hundred rooms are there.

Dr. Patel: Others, also. You can... [break]

Prabhupada: Patel, he has got.

Dr. Patel: It is not Patel. This Das and Company. [break] There must be a temple committee. Do you know?

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes.

Dr. Patel: All Bengalis must be the member. Is it a fact that this temple, Jagannatha Puri, was originally a temple for Buddhists, and then it was converted into... No?

Prabhupada: This is all these speculators, rascals.

Dr. Patel: Who are the chief men in the temple committee of Jagannatha temple?

Prabhupada: Government.

Dr. Patel: No, no.

Prabhupada: Yes, government.

Dr. Patel: How can there be government? No. Hindu temples are never controlled by government.

Prabhupada: Although the king is there...

Indian man (3): Formerly the king was controlling. Now the government is.

Dr. Patel: Which king?

Prabhupada: The magistrate is the president of the matha.

Dr. Patel: Dvaraka temple was under control of Maharaja of Baroda, but he appointed a committee of Vaisnavas to control it. It was completely free.

[break] [laughing] You have been very unkind to people.

Prabhupada: He is a first-class Carvaka, he is.

Devotee: The dog is also trying to defend himself against the Lord.

Prabhupada: No. That is not the question. Question is anyone who does not know what is God, he is a Carvaka, that's all. Mūḍha nabhijanati mam ebhyaḥ param ayayam [Bg 7.13]. He's a Carvaka. That's all.

Dr. Patel: Rrnam krtva ghrtam pibet [borrow but eat ghee.…]

Prabhupada: The same bodily concept: "Russian," "American," "Chinese." Then? Yasyatma-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13].

Indian man (3): They are innocent. They are not...

Dr. Patel: Innocent?

Prabhupada: No, they are not innocent; they are stupid. [laughter] They are not innocent. They will never agree...

Indian man (3): There are so many Indians, they are also not aware of this all.

Dr. Patel: No, they are also like that.

Prabhupada: Huh? The simple thing explained in the Bhagavad-gita...

Indian man (3): When they come under the guru then they will know.

Prabhupada: Simple thing explained in the Bhagavad-gita, asmin dehe dehinam [Bg 2.13]: "Within this body there is the proprietor." So they do not understand it. Huh?

Indian man (3): That comes after, after coming under guru...

Indian man (4): Guru you should go? Then only perfect knowledge you will get.

Yasomatinandana: Guru is there. Why don't they come?

Prabhupada: Yes. Guru is there, but they won't come. They won't come.

Indian man (3): Unless they are serious they cannot take.

Dr. Patel: That jagat guru is, you are, sir. Krsnam vande jagat-gurum.

Prabhupada: It is injunction of the sastra, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. But who is coming to guru? Guru is canvassing whole world, "Please come to me."

Dr. Patel: [Transl. With samit. Dry woods are not available in the market. That they have to bring, no?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. This is Kali-yuga, no? Previously people used to search for a guru and now guru has to find out where is disciple. [laughter] This is Kali-yuga.] ...I am in Bombay, but how many Gujaratis are my chela? There is only one Gujarati.

Dr. Patel: One is sufficient. He represents the whole Gujaratis.

Prabhupada: That's all right. [laughter]

Brahmananda: And Prabhupada had to rescue him from America. [laughter]

Prabhupada: That is the difficulty. I will have to preach, bringing men from America and Europe. Nobody is coming here. Everyone is talking big, big.

Indian man (3): God has to go to burden this one also?

Prabhupada: Eh? No, no. This is the difficulty, that whatever I am doing... Therefore I am very much in anxiety when the government says, "Now you go away. Your visa is finished."

Dr. Patel: From here?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Your visa from here?

Prabhupada: Mine, no. My disciples'. Dragging.

Dr. Patel: Well, government... I have heard like this, but government think that in this group there may be some those CIA people. I don't know whether they are right...

Prabhupada: Let government supplies some men who does not belong to the CIA. And where is that? That is all.

Dr. Patel: That is what they say.

Prabhupada: They may say anything nonsense.

Dr. Patel: That all these, all may not be true sadhus. There may be CIA, one of them. They'll find out what these fellows are, and then they will do all that. Then they may bomb on our prime minister.

Bhagavata: Well, first one of their CID will have to live like we live, and then we can see.

Prabhupada: No, no. Actually, Indians are not interested. That is the fact. They: "What is this Hare Krsna? We have chanted the Hare Krsna for hundreds of years. What is the effect?" That is the...

Dr. Patel: Their pride is useless.

Indian man (5): That is the mental…

Dr. Patel: Their problem…

Indian man (5): [Transl. They don't understand it belongs to India.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. They think this Hare Krsna…] [break]

Dr. Patel: That they are doing this and that. I have to explain them that "You are all humbug because they don't know you well; you don't know them well."

Prabhupada: They will create nuisance because there is no sense. It is better nuisance. Who is coming to make sense, chanting Hare Krsna? Nobody is coming. Then nuisance is better than no sense. Nei mamara ceye kana mama bhala: [Bengali proverb] "To possess no mama: uncle, it is better to have a blind mama." So they are blind mama. That's all right. Where is the real mama? All mamas are...

Dr. Patel: [Transl. Do you know who are called mamas here? A foolish fellow.] [break]

Prabhupada: Mama means mother's brother.

Dr. Patel: No, but here in Gujarat... [Transl. He is a fool.] Mama means he is a fool. [break]

Devotee (2): Now is not nice. The fruit is not nice.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. See, he is speaking English!] You speak in Italian. They will understand it.

Devotee (2): I speak little English only.

Dr. Patel: Speak in Italian.

Devotee (2): It's not possible for me.

Dr. Patel: Don't worry. [break]

Prabhupada: If he comes to your house you must receive him properly. Grham satrum api praptam visvas tam akuto-bhayam. [Even one is enemy, when he comes to my house, he is my honorable guest.] [end]