770705DC.VRN
770705DC.VRN
770705DC-Vrindavan [62:13 Minutes]
If you are basically a rascal, then what is the value of your book?
|
Prabhupada: So what is the difficulty?
Prabhupada: [aside:] Take from the middle. [break] It is something new?
Prabhupada: First thing is, these people, they cannot cross the Himalayan mountain.
[aside:] You can turn this light in this way, down.
From my practical experience, I have seen Switzerland, it is so high that so many accidents have taken place. Little inattention. They have experience. The plane goes thirty-two thousand feet high. Is it not?
Prabhupada: Still they met with accident. But they are saying that Himalaya is twenty-eight thousand feet high.
Prabhupada: What is this? First of all answer this. Their everything proposition is wrong. So how we can trust somebody? What is the answer?
Prabhupada: Then? But if you cannot trust them, they're rejected immediately. This is one argument. Another argument, kupa-manduka-nyaya. The frog in the well, he's estimating, "This is the limit of water." What he'll understand about Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean? There is so many things. On the whole we are imperfect, and although imperfect, they want to be perfect. That is cheating. Now for argument's sake, if they put some argument, we have to reply. We have to prepare for them. Otherwise they're useless. We know they're useless, but sometimes they put some argument. We have to give answer. This is the position. And our duty is to present picture of Srimad-Bhagavatam correct. So what do you have to say? At least some answer you should give.
Prabhupada: We reject them.
Prabhupada: "You are imperfect. So whatever you have written, that is nonsense. And everywhere problem. Why should we waste our time?" Now just try to settle from point of view. He's showing this book; I am showing the Bhagavatam. So you are imperfect, that's a fact. What is the value of your book? If you are basically a rascal, then what is the value of your book? Why shall I waste my time? First of all I take it and I prove it that you are a rascal. You show your book; I show my book. But you have been proved that you are a rascal. Because practically you cannot cross Himalaya. You have no idea what is the Himalaya. You are giving some conflict.
Bhakti-prema: This..., we have to reply to this question. They say if we go, we start from Los Angeles and arrive Japan, according to Srimad-Bhagavatam...
Prabhupada: Japan and Los Angeles and India, that is not the whole thing.
Prabhupada: Huh... Insignificant.
Bhakti-prema: According to Srimad-Bhagavatam, if we start from Los Angeles...
Prabhupada: That argument also I have refuted. Just like animal, he is bound up. He is rotating around the log, and within that there may be Japan, there may be Calcutta, there may be Los Angeles. You can think this is there. But that is not all. Within that rounding circle, whatever is there, you may think this is all. But that is not all. He's limited condition. So within his limitation [Transl. To Bhakti-caru: Is the medicinal decoction prepared?].
Prabhupada: Within that limitation he's speaking. But Himalaya and other things-far beyond their limitation. That I have already explained. He's speaking within his limitation. Our position is superior, correctly represent what is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. But if there is some question, we should ask. Just like I am answering to the reasonable point, that if you are conditioned, within your condition you can see, you can experience, but beyond that you have no right to see. What is Los Angeles, Calcutta, Japan, this is very insignificant space. And they're talking like that. We are talking that Himalaya mountain, "We have crossed over that Himalaya, we conquered the outer space." How they can think of it?
Prabhupada: There is no question of take them. If you take, he's all right. If you don't take, we cannot change.
Prabhupada: First of all you have to prove that you are imperfect.
Prabhupada: Yes. You're simply insisting on things by "probably." "Probably beyond the Himalaya there is something." That is one thing. We say "Definitely, here is. Beyond the Himalayas like this, that." That is the difference. You say "probably," I say "definitely." Father, mother said, "Here is your father." You can say "probably," and mother is saying "definitely." She knows perfectly. You may say probably he may be your father, but mother knows that definitely. Therefore we take Vedas as mother, Puranas as sister. Sukadeva Gosvami is explaining. Iti susruma. But susruma, why he should waste his valuable time? He knows it is definite. So unless you come to this standpoint that whatever is spoken in the Vedic literature, that is definite, you cannot be convinced by argument.
Sukadeva Gosvami said-that's all. Mahajano yena. Vaiyasakih.
These mahajanas. This is our argument. And for commonsense argument, the Himalaya is very, very high. Very, very broad. You have never crossed, and you have met with so many accidents. They avoid that portion, flying plane. And I have seen how high has it gone, then it is in the clouds. Still they say twenty-eight thousand. Huh? Twenty-eight thousand?
Prabhupada: So I conclude like that. When you show this book, accept this authority.
Yasoda-nandana: Not accepting the authority. The problem is that the Pacific Ocean, according to Jambudvipa, for us it is the salt ocean. So the first question that Maharaja was raising, that they will ask, how do we go between the west coast of America, which is very tiny, and Japan, as they say according to their calculation we go west and we arrive around. And you keep still going further and you arrive back in America. The point about the Himalayas, that we did not raise, because that we could well understood. The Himalayas is much broader and much bigger than they think. We can fully understand it. But that point, from commonsense point of view we couldn't exactly understand. We thought of it all afternoon, and we came up with a few ideas, but we wanted to hear what Your Divine Grace...
Tamala Krsna: Our question was mostly coming out of how to draw what the Srimad-Bhagavatam is saying. We're not supporting any kind of mundane argument, nor do we have any doubt in Bhagavatam. We're simply trying to understand the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: And that is your credit.
Prabhupada: Where is the difficulty?
Tamala Krsna: Well, I think that one of the difficulties arose from my seeing this map originally, because in this map it shows the continents that we today speak of as various continents. So when we all looked at this map, our immediate question was, as I said the other day, how do we go from one place to the next? It's not such an unreasonable question. So we're just trying to answer it from the Bhagavatam-not to give our own speculations, because they're imperfect.
Prabhupada: That is already answered. You are limited within certain area. So you can conclude in so many ways. Thoda badi khada, khada badi thoda. There is a vegetable prepared, the following vegetables are taken: thoda or [the spathe of a banana tree] badi or [a conical ball made of the paste of pigeon-pea and dried in the sun], and khada or [the drumstick]. And again you say khada badi thoda. This way or that way. Thoda badi khada, khada badi thoda. [Both ways possible] That three things, either you take this way consecutively or that way consecutively. But you have got only that thoda badi khada. You have no experience. There is potato, there is potol, there is [indistinct]. You know these three things. Thoda badi khada, khada badi thoda. Bas. Just like they are making arrangement in the laboratory. Companies are there. They present in such a way, that he was flying in the sky, and big sputnik and very small town. Do you know that man came?
Prabhupada: And they have done so in the matter of moon planet. They've never gone there by laboratory arrangement. The Arizona?
Prabhupada: That's all. That is their business. They might have presented such devices in a book, a different color. Just like medical science. The preparation is nothing, but they'll employ big, big medical students to write in such a way that it will be presented very important. They are doing this. We have done in Dr. Bose's laboratory. They employ.
[speaks garbled words to sound like big words]
Go on speaking. [laughter] It sounds very nice. What is the meaning of? [more garbled phrases] So I have got my own common sense. I understand. Everything become [indistinct] in the Vedic literatures. Correct.
Prabhupada: That I already told. Prejudiced.
Yasoda-nandana: I'm not prejudiced. I'm just trying to understand. I'm trying to understand what is the facts according to Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: How you can understand which is beyond your understanding?
Tamala Krsna: He is saying he wants to understand according to the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: That you can describe.
Tamala Krsna: That is what we're having trouble with. We're not trying to do our own thing. We're trying to understand Bhagavatam. That we're a little stuck on some point.
Prabhupada: Bhagavata is there. You try to understand.
Tamala Krsna: We're not siding with the preconceptions that we had before. We'll throw them away. We're trying to accept the Bhagavatam. We have to do a model, a planetarium. So everything has to be according to the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: Make it nice. We are going to spend so much money, people may not reject it. [break]
Prabhupada: So who has gone to see the churning [indistinct]?
Tamala Krsna: Just like as we're talking, we're a little... Sometimes it's difficult to understand the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: But I take it simply-that there is ocean, and it was churned. So there is no difficulty.
Prabhupada: But nobody has seen that ocean. And nobody can believe that ocean can be churned. Would you believe it? Because it is like that. And the Vasuki was taken as rope.
Prabhupada: And it was born by tortoise incarnation.
Prabhupada: No, no. Logically you cannot. Acintya. Logic comes when it is conceivable; but it is inconceivable. Where is your logic?
Prabhupada: Argument is there when it is conceivable. It is inconceivable. Krsna lifted Govardhana, seven years old, six years old. How it is conceivable? But devotees, they are crying, "Oh, Giri-vara-dhari." And the Mayavadis, they say kalpanaya. The Akhandananda said. And Sukadeva Gosvami is narrating something kalpanaya and wasting his time?
Prabhupada: This is acintya for the Mayavadis. They say kalpanaya. These Akhandananda and other Mayavadis, they explain Bhagavata-kalpanaya. They are making some imagination that "I am God," but they are alleging us that "You are in illusion." God, as soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. He's such a rascal hypocrite. There was some heart attack going on, so Akhandananda, immediately he called one of his chief disciples, that Mishra, Jasri, and he was taken to Bombay hospital. And he's God.
Prabhupada: Expired? No, no. He's living. But talking all nonsense, reading Bhagavatam, and hundreds of people go to the asrama.
Prabhupada: That difference of opinion will continue. You cannot stop it.
Prabhupada: Why you are trying to adjust Pacific Ocean? Pacific Ocean, any ocean, it is just like kupa-manduka. It is very big for you, because you are a very teeny identity. But take the universe-what is the Pacific? Is it not a drop. There are so many Pacific Oceans floating in the sky. Everything is acintya. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah [Bs 5.48]. This is acintya. So acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet [Mahabharata, Bhisma-parva 5.22]. You cannot make an experiment or see it. But take some information from the authority and be satisfied. With your limited knowledge, if you want to bring it to experiment, that is not possible. That is not possible.
Prabhupada: Where is the logic?
Prabhupada: How they can? Scientist is rascal. That is proved. They are insisting that chemical can produce life. He's a rascal. They have gone to moon planet. That's a rascal. So what is the value of so-called scientist? Why should we give any importance? I'm not giving any importance. If you become scientist, that so much ghee and so much ata makes puri, and we can eat very nicely, all right, you are a scientist. But so much chemicals, make it life-prove that. The confectioner is also scientist. He knows very well how to do his business. A carpenter is also scientist. Here is some work nice done by the carpenter. I cannot do it. You may be a great scientist, but me? It is not possible for me to do a carpentry work. In this way it is going on. [Transl. yara kaja tara saje anya loke lathi baje] You have learned something, you can do it very nicely. But I cannot do it. For me it will be beating by the rod if I am given this work. I can translate, my work. That's all right. So everyone is scientist, his own field of activities, to some extent. You cannot make everyone agree. That is not... Vox populi you cannot. That is not possible. What is that vox populi?
Prabhupada: Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam [Bg 7.13]. So what is the value of vox populi? I concluded. Munayah sadhu prsto 'ham. Huh? What is that? Munayah sadhu prsto 'ham [SB 1.2.5]. Loka-maṅgalam. Yenatma suprasidati. So Krsna's childhood pastime, enjoyed by Mother Yasoda, others will think, "What is this nonsense? Krsna is breaking the butter pot and it is taken as sublime?" They'll think like that.
Prabhupada: And first of all she became surprised. And next moment, "Whatever it is, my dear Krsna, You come on my lap." That's all. So it is not for all.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Prabhupada: Journal?
Prabhupada: Yes, esoteric I know. Journal?
Prabhupada: Yes. Esoteric and exoteric. But one thing is that it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. If you think that ignorance is bliss, then why should we waste our time and money?
Prabhupada: Ask them. Why don't you ask them? Sometimes they say flat, sometimes they say it is round. Why don't you ask them, the scientists?
Prabhupada: No, no. Formerly they were under the impression the world is flat. And now they are saying round. So what they'll say after few years?
Prabhupada: Ask them which is correct. "Probably" this is correct. Yes.
Prabhupada: I answered it. You people say like that, so which is correct? Flat or round?
Tamala Krsna: They will say, "What does the Bhagavatam say?"
Prabhupada: Huh?
Prabhupada: That is, we are...
Prabhupada: Yes, you must have proper answer as far as possible.
Tamala Krsna: We just read... We got a version from South India, and we've even found that there are different conceptions of what the Bhagavatam is saying. But the Puranas, they give some Puranic references.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Everything you conceived, that is wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore inconceivable.
Prabhupada: Give me that pineapple juice.
Prabhupada: [Transl. Just by drinking one my stomach will be full.]
Prabhupada: We are not lying to you.
Tamala Krsna: We're drawing according to the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: We're not conceiving it. It is already there.
Prabhupada: Conceived not by me.
Prabhupada: I am imperfect. That is the difference.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is their... Apauruseyam. Actually India's culture is going on that way. Mass of people, they are going to Prayaga for taking bath. What do they know? They have received it from authorities that if you take bath in such and such place... Ah, lakhs of people will go. That is Indian culture. Without any advertisement, without any means, walking hundreds of miles they are coming. Yes, that is their culture. And the government is perturbed that people are so prejudiced. So how to make them forget? This is going on. But they don't listen. They just, "If I take bath I'll..." That is the difference between Western and Eastern. And as soon as there is interpretation, it is Mayavada. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu has rejected-mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa [Cc Madhya 6.169]. You see in the Kumbha-mela how peacefully they are sitting. They are accepting Vedic culture. So nice atmosphere. Simply by going there you'll be satisfied. That is the difference between East and West.
[break] ...guru. Tasyaite kathita hy arthah prakasante. The authority is revealed to him. Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve [Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23]. Otherwise not. So do it as far as possible to your capacities. But things are inconceivable. You cannot adjust within the limitation of your understanding. That is not...
Prabhupada: Did you know that story, the Narada was going to Vaikuntha? Narada came back and replied to a cobbler... Cobbler asked him what Narayana is doing. "He has taken one elephant and He's drawing through the hole of a needle like this and again taking." The learned brahmana, he began to laugh: "These are all stories." And the cobbler began to cry, "Oh, Narayana, Krsna, can do anything." Narada inquired, "How do you believe that elephant is being drawn through the hole of needle?" "No, why not? I'm daily seeing by sitting under this tree, banyan tree, and within a fruit there are thousands of seeds. And each seed contains the big tree." Can the scientists make such small seed contain a big banyan tree? So it is acintya. That's a fact. [break] ...thing is inconceivable. And these rascals want to bring them as conceivable. He's conditioned, and he's trying to bring inconceivable thing to his conception. Useless, futile attempt. How the scientist will answer? We take a fruit. There are hundreds of seeds, and each seed contains a big tree. How you can explain? Is it not inconceivable?
Prabhupada: So what is the use of arguing?
Prabhupada: That's right.
Prabhupada: Susrusubhis tat-ksanat. There is no other way.
Prabhupada: You do not require to be puffed up with your so-called education. It has no value.
[pause] Hmm. Is that all right?
Devotees: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. [end]
|