Morning Walk – October 2, 1972, Los Angeles

721002MW-Los Angeles [32:15 Minutes]

One who is engaged in devotional service with love and faith

[walking]

Svarūpa Damodara: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: America?

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes. He told me he was very pleased to see Srila Prabhupada, and he said he will start chanting Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Svarūpa Damodara: He said he will go to Laguna Beach temple, and he said he will try out chanting Hare Krsna.

Jayatirtha: He told me that he could see that this knowledge wasn't theoretical, that it was realized knowledge.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jayatirtha: He told me that.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Jayatirtha: That the knowledge that you have isn't theoretical but it's realized. He was very much impressed by that.

Svarūpa Damodara: He liked the prasadam so much that I made another plate, and he finished that. Then after that he took the..., he finished the... What is that preparation from eggplant?

Devotee (2): The vegetable. He really liked that.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yes, he finished all plate, he liked so much. He said, "What is here Prabhupada?"

Prabhupada: Gradually try to convince him, and let him read our books.

Svarūpa Damodara: Yeah, I will contact him. We are in the same floor. He works on the physics side, I am in chemistry side, but we are in the same floor, fourth floor of the building. No, he is on the third floor. So Srila Prabhupada is saying that prove the existence of Krsna by the science of physics, your knowledge. So he asked me, "How am I going to prove the existence of Krsna by chemistry?"

Prabhupada: That requires your knowledge.

Svarūpa Damodara: But he agreed the existence of supreme brain. We were talking about the talk between Einstein, Heisenberg, and some of the famous so-called physicists in nuclear field. So there was a conversation between Einstein and this Heisenberg, and Paul Dirac, and Wolfgang[?], these are mostly [indistinct] scientists, they are mostly Nobel Laureates.

They were discussing, and without Einstein, these people they were talking, "Why Einstein is all the time talking about God?" Then this Heisenberg, he was not like Einstein. Einstein himself, he believed that there is a brain behind, supreme brain of God. And some of them, specifically this one, young [indistinct] Dirac, he is also a scientist, he was very young, he was only twenty-five years old. So he said, "Einstein is all the time talking about God." This Dirac is completely opposite to this Einstein. So they were discussing about why Einstein is thinking about God all the time. And so...

But ultimately they said..., most of them agreed that there is a supreme being who is making all these physical laws, natural laws. It's already in the universe, but they are trying to discover it. So most of them agree except this Dirac. So in the same line, [indistinct] told me that "Yes, we agree that all the physical laws is already there. If somebody doesn't make it, then how can it exist?" So he said he is thinking also in that line, that there is someone, some brain, some supreme brain who is making all these physical laws. Otherwise there cannot be physical laws if there is not someone. He was saying that he started thinking in that line too.

Prabhupada: [indistinct] srjate tat. He makes everything, but He is not attached. [pause] [break]

Svarūpa Damodara: ...how do you know that guru is qualified, spiritual master is qualified? Then I said everything is written in the sastras, so we have to follow according to the injunctions written in the sastras. So all the qualifications of a pure devotee, of a bona fide guru, is written there.

Just like you are a professor of physics in the university. Before you came, you had some qualification, degree of doctors. And then there is a committee to decide you whether you are qualified for the post. So it is selected by a committee of members and then they interview you, and then they find out your qualifications.

If they find that you are qualified for the post, so you are selected as a professor. It's like that in the spiritual field also. There are revealed scriptures, and there everything is written what will be the qualification of a guru and then how to choose a bona fide one. So everything is written. You should follow the injunctions of the revealed scriptures accordingly.

Prabhupada: Committee is his spiritual master, he orders that you do this.

Jayatirtha: The test is to see how much one is actually following the orders of his spiritual master.

Prabhupada: That's right.

Ramesvara: Listening to another so-called guru, everywhere we go, especially in Los Angeles, they always talk of other gurus. They always talk of spiritual knowledge, but they don't find out what the real test is.

Prabhupada: What is your answer?

Ramesvara: So we show them our books and say that these are the real scriptures, real quality. The science has to be [indistinct] authorities of spiritual life.

Prabhupada: How do you explain? You are realized or not? [indistinct] the proof?

Ramesvara: Prabhupada, when you say that this is the knowledge that's been realized...

Prabhupada: What is that? Why don't you explain? [indistinct] That means you do not know.

Devotee (2): One who is developing in spiritual life is becoming detached from material things. These persons who are following other gurus are attached to material things. They're still smoking, having sex life, drinking.

Jayatirtha: It's difficult to [indistinct] detached from material things. One should be attached to Krsna.

Prabhupada: That detachment is required. That is the special qualification. You cannot be completely detached. If you be detached from something, you must be attached to something. Otherwise you have no perception[?]. So you should be detached from matter and attached to Krsna.

Devotee (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: What is the symptom of guru you do not know. Then how you can [indistinct]?

Devotee (2): The devotee is always offering devotional service to the Supreme Personality.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is first step. Without [indistinct] simply by knowledge... Knowledge you must have, but simply theoretical knowledge... Practical manifestation that he's a great devotee. Whenever there is any doubt or question, he will prove by the evidences of sastra.

Jayatirtha: [indistinct] was saying last night to our scientist friend that Krsna is that teacher. So the spiritual master is simply repeating perfectly what Krsna is saying. So if Krsna is saying, "Surrender to Me," then the spiritual master is saying, "Surrender to Krsna."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jayatirtha: So in this way, the spiritual master and Krsna are in complete agreement.

Prabhupada: Thus he becomes representative of Krsna.

Ramesvara: The other teachers, they don't talk...

Prabhupada: When is Ekadasi?

Svarūpa Damodara: Ekadasi?

Ramesvara: Tuesday is Ekadasi.

Svarūpa Damodara: Tuesday? Tomorrow?

Ramesvara: Our calendar says Tuesday. It's obvious when they talk about their teachers that they never talk of service to Krsna.

Prabhupada: Therefore they have no realization. Our relationship is service. So one who is not engaged in the service of the Supreme, he has no realization. Whatever little realization he has got, that is called santa-rasa.

Jayatirtha: Dasya realization is [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Dasya-rasa. [indistinct] [break] ...practical devotee, he cannot become guru.

Jayatirtha: [indistinct] in the category of what you were speaking about yesterday, [indistince] he claims to be a teacher but he doesn't actually have real knowledge, then he's simply cheating.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: There's nothing practical that they say.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Ramesvara: They say nothing practical.

Prabhupada: That means they do not follow any practical. That is their rascaldom. Nothing practical means they do not know what is the practical realization of God. That is their ignorance. And still they are claiming to be teachers. That is cheating. Just like these so-called scientists, they are theorizing, but they cannot practically prove.

Therefore their knowledge is imperfect. Bahūnam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg 7.19]. Jnanavan, the wise, after many, many births' cultivation of knowledge, when he surrenders, that is practical. Simply knowledge is useless, theoretical. When he practically surrenders, that is end of knowledge. That is perfection.

Jayatirtha: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes. This is stated. You don't read Bhagavad-gita? You don't read?

Ramesvara: In class we have, every evening.

Prabhupada: So in the Tenth Chapter it is said, tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-pūrvakam [Bg 10.10]. Do you know this verse? Then? Bhajatam priti-pūrvakam: "One who is engaged in devotional service with love and faith," buddhi-yogam dadami, "I give him intelligence."

That is perfection. Satata-yuktanam, "Twenty-four hours engaged with love and faith in My service, I give him intelligence, not to others." That is the qualification. Buddhi-yogam dadami te yena mam upayanti. What kind of intelligence? By which one can come back to home, back to Godhead.

Not for material enjoyment, or bluffing or cheating. Not that intelligence. That intelligence also given by Him, indirectly. "If you want to cheat, all right, I will give you how to cheat others." That is material. In the material world, we can cheat. In the spiritual world, there is no question of cheating.

Jayatirtha: The intelligence by which we can come to Krsna is a special kind of intelligence.

Prabhupada: That is perfect intelligence. Therefore we say Krsna is the perfect teacher. In the Fifteenth Chapter, sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattaḥ smrtir jnanam apohanam [Bg 15.15]: "I am sitting in everyone's heart. All intelligence, memory, is coming from Me, and forgetfulness also is caused by Me." So He is the supreme controller in every respect.

Jayatirtha: Why are some people remembering and some people are forgetting Him?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Jayatirtha: If Krsna is the source of both remembrance and forgetfulness...

Prabhupada: Yes. When Krsna sees that "Here is a rascal, so let him forget Me," so He will give him intelligence so that he can forget Krsna for good. Not for good-at least for some time.

Svarūpa Damodara: That is the desire of the individual soul.

Prabhupada: Yes. Ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg 4.11]: "As one surrenders unto Me, according to that." Real process is surrender. So if you surrender with some reservation, with some ulterior motive, then Krsna will give you proportionately intelligence.

When you are cent per cent without any reservation surrender, then you get all facility, all help from Krsna, without asking. Just like a small child, he is fully surrendered unto the parent. The parent looks after all the necessities. He doesn't ask anything. That is wanted. [break]

Jayatirtha: ...the six principles of surrender in devotional service.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is very important. What is the time?

Jayatirtha: Seven minutes to seven. One of the six principles is that our interest must be the same in that we can't have any separate interest outside of the interest of the Lord. So that...

Prabhupada: That is surrender. You have no personal interest.

Jayatirtha: That would be another test of the spiritual master, is that if he has some interest outside of Krsna's interest, then we can understand that he isn't surrendered.

Prabhupada: Anyone. All these rascals come as guru. They say, "I am Krsna." He has got his own interest. That is immediately disqualification, that he is a rascal. Kick him in his face, as soon as he says.

Jayatirtha: Yes. If a person is surrendering to Krsna, he won't take over Krsna's post.

Prabhupada: That's it.

Svarūpa Damodara: [indistinct] by the mercy of Krsna one gets a bona fide spiritual master.

Prabhupada: Krsna is always merciful. He comes Himself also and demands surrender, but we do not do that. What Krsna can do.

Jayatirtha: As you were saying last night, if we had no independence, then there wouldn't be any question of... We'd be just like dull matter. There'd be no difference. So we have that independence.

Prabhupada: By our misuse of independence, we do not surrender. Otherwise, Krsna says, "You surrender."

Jayatirtha: The spiritual master teaches how to surrender to Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jayatirtha: And it's done by surrendering to the teachings of the spiritual master.

Prabhupada: Then whatever he teaches is perfect, because to the surrendered soul Krsna gives the intelligence. So when he speaks, he speaks perfectly because Krsna is dictating, "You do this, you speak like this, to the students."

Svarūpa Damodara: In the Caitanya-caritamrta, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says to Sanatana Gosvami that spiritual life starts by accepting..., the moment the disciple accepts a spiritual master. And then he follows the instruction that... [break]

Prabhupada: Adau gurvasrayam [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.74]. Adau, first to accept a spiritual master. Sad-dharma prccha. Then inquiries. Sadhu marganugamanam. These are stated in our Nectar of Devotion.

Jayatirtha: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Jayatirtha: She is a 40-years-old lady, her name is Lucille. She is very much actually convinced of our philosophy and is devoted to Krsna consciousness, but the only thing is, because she comes conditioned from a previous life, she can't give up..., has a very hard time giving up smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee. She's been trying for about nine months to give up these things, [indistinct] but she can't do it. Still she is desirous of initiation. So I don't know what to [indistinct].

Prabhupada: No. You cannot. You cannot give. She must at least promise that he gives... [break] And if we promise that [indistinct]. But after initiation if she smokes, that's not good.

Jayatirtha: Yes. So if she is [indistinct].

Svarūpa Damodara: [indistinct]

Jayatirtha: So if someone is sincere, we want them to follow devotional principles. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No. If you have the determination, Krsna will help. [indistinct] If she is determined that "Even if I die, I shall not smoke," then Krsna will help her. And if she thinks, "So I'll not do it. If Krsna likes, He will help me," so this kind of surrender will not help. Just like [indistinct].

He has prepared some nice foodstuff. So he says, "If Krsna comes, I will give Him; otherwise I shall eat." [laughter] "And if Krsna is very hungry, He will come." So this alternative proposal is not accepted. "If Krsna comes, I will offer this. Otherwise I shall eat."

Svarūpa Damodara: That is personal motivation.

Prabhupada: This is not surrender.

Jayatirtha: Krsna is not attracted by the foodstuff; He's attracted by the devotion.

Prabhupada: Devotion, yes. For Krsna we can offer [indistinct]. [break]

Jayatirtha: You will go from London to Bombay?

Prabhupada: If need be. [indistinct] [break] [end]