34--Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Lecture, 1971, Calcutta

Prabhupada: [coughs] I think that the things can be put here and I will sort [?]

[Hindi] [break]

So Sanatana Gosvami did not accept a new cloth and somehow or other he managed to accept a used cloth. This is an example of strict mendicancy. In the Bhagavata, just like Sukadeva Gosvami. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said that, "Don't you get torn out or used cloth on the streets?" Formerly used cloth was thrown in the street, just like in your country sometimes you throw away some used carpets, used chairs, in the garbage. If anyone wants to use it, take it away. Formally a gentleman, after using a cloth for some times, he would throw it away, so that some poor man take it away.

So Sukadeva Gosvami recommends that, "Does not anyone get the used cloth available on the street? Does he not get fruit from the tree? Does he not get water from the rivers? Are the rivers all dried up? Has he not hands? Why does he hanker after pillow? Is there not very nice grass bed, bedding? Why does he require a bedding?" In this way. "Has he not found a room in the cave of the mountain?" The idea is that for living condition, we require a shelter; we require some bedding; we require some utensils; we require some food; we require some water. In this way Sukadeva Gosvami has described that, "You can get all these things, they are ready. Why should you go to a rich man and beg for your subsistance?" That was Sukadeva Gosvami's recommendation. So Sanatana Gosvami also-followed; these Gosvamis strictly followed. Of course madhukari, madhukari means madhukara, madhukari-bees. What is called? Bumble bees collecting honey.

Devotee: [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Ah. So bumble bees collect honey from one flower, one drop. Another flower, another drop, another flower, another drop. In this way, a few drops from here and there, then he is satisfied. Similarly a mendicant strictly following the regulations, he won't take alms from one house sumptuously. [coughs] Still in Vrndavana this madhukari system is current. They will take a half piece of capati or one piece of capati from one house, not more than that. In this way when there is five, four or six capatis, according to, hunger, then stop begging. So Sanatana Gosvami is following the same principles. And they followed, when they were in Vrndavana, they followed strictly this madhukari system. But at the present moment it is very difficult. The society has changed, the mode of living has changed-that is not possible. If we artifically imitate Sanatana Gosvami without that strength of mind and without favorable situation. If you simply try to follow the regulation without any effect that is called-niyamagraha. They are after the rules and regulation without any practical result. We have to see to the practical result also, not that because Sanatana Gosvami did it therefore we have to do it. As far as we have to do it, on principle we shall not change, but there may be some change according to the time or circumstances and that change should be adopted by the instruction of authorities. Not...

[aside:] who is talking?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: What?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Ah.

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Then they will chose meditate on the veranda. [?]

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Don't, don't close it. Who asked you to close it? These boys are coming. They have chosen.

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: What?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Devotee (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee (3): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: [Bengali]

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No, then keep the shoes here in veranda. What can be done?

Devotee: Ha?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes. Some of you sit there.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: This is the first time? [indistinct]

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: We never kept them outside before.

Prabhupada: Ha.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Your shoes may now be stolen, it is not so beautiful, ladies.

Devotees: [laughter]

Prabhupada: [laughs]. Ladies shoes they thief.

Tamal Krsna: [indistinct]

Prabhupada Eh?

Tamal Krsna: [indistinct] leave them by the tree.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamal Krsna: That's the result. In fact everyone putting there. [cars honking].

Prabhupada: Hm. The idea is that. Ah. Sanatana Gosvami, what Sanatana Gosvami did, it is not that we have to imitate. According to the time and circumstances we may change the policy but it should be sanctioned by the spiritual master otherwise not that we have to do it according to our own whims. [coughs] The present mode of preaching was introduced by our Guru Maharaja, Bhaktsiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaja. If he would not adopt such process then the teachings of Lord Caitanya, such sublime Krsna consciousness, could not have been possible to spread all over the world.

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Hm.

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada:

That Sanatana Gosvami received one blanket from his brother-in-law while coming to Benares, that we have discussed-that was costly. So the Caitanya Mahaprabhu was looking over the blanket. So Sanatana Gosvami could understand that, "I have accepted one cloth, used cloth, I did not... I refused to accept one new cloth and a still I have got a blanket which is very costly is not very good." So Sanatana Gosvami went to the Ganges ghata. On the bank of the Ganges and he saw that one mendicant was washing his clothes, quilt, and was lying in the sunshine. So Sanatana Gosvami approached him that, "If you kindly trade, change this blanket with your this torn-out quilt. I shall be very much thankful."

So the man thought that, "He appears to be a very nice gentleman and he is joking with me." So he told him, "Sir, you appear to be a very gentleman, why you are joking with me? I am poor man." Then Sanatana Gosvami said, "No, no. I am not joking. I am actually serious." He said, "If you kindly give me that torn quilt and I will give you this blanket. That will satisfy me." So he took the opportunity, took the very costly blanket and gave him in return that quilt. So when he was present Caitanya, before Caitanya Mahaprabhu with that torn quilt instead of that costly blanket. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said:

[coughs]

When, Lord Caitanya inquired: [coughs] "Where is your, that costly blanket? Where you kept it?" So he said: "Sir I have exchanged it in this way." And then Lord Caitanya was very much pleased, He said:

Visaya, visaya means-ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam [Hitopadesa 25]: eating, sleeping and mating and defending, this is called visaya-sense gratification. So visaya, if one has got attachment for these things, then he is a visayi. So Narottama dasa Thakura says: visaya chaḍiya, se rase majiya [Parama Koruna], "One has to give up the attachment for material desires."

That is required. So by the glance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu over the costly blanket; it was indicated, "Sanatana why should you be attached to this costly blanket?" So immediately he understood and changed it. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu is encouraging him that, "By the grace of Krsna your attachment for visaya is now completely gone." You are no more attachment to anything. "So I wanted to see, so I am very glad that you have done that."

"Because You are so kind upon me so by Your grace I have given up my last attachment for material comforts."

[aside:] [Bengali] Eh?

Devotee: [Bengali]

Prabhupada: [Bengali]

We are talking about the teachings of Lord Caitanya to Sanatana Gosvami so it is now evident that Lord Caitanya was very much pleased on Sanatana Gosvami and by His mercy only Sanatana Gosvami was able to question, the question and answer. As soon as there is topics and conversation there must be question and answer. So this question, not irrelevant questions, the questions should be bona fide. So prasna karite-by the grace of Lord Caitanya he could put relevant questions.

Formally the question-answers were there but the questioner was Caitanya Mahaprabhu and answer was given by Raya-Rama. Just like sometimes teacher questions and the student replies. Generally the system is the student questions then the teacher replies but sometimes it so happens that teacher questions and the student replies. So Ramananda replied. Now here the student is questioning, Sanatana Gosvami is student and Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the teacher, master, He is instructing.

Krsna-svarūpa-madhuryais, this is a prose, a verse composed by the author, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami. He says, krsna-svarūpa, "the identity of Lord Krsna." What is Krsna? So Sanatana Gosvami, these teachings you'll find-you'll know what is Krsna. His svarūpa, His original transcendental form, krsna-svarūpa-madhuryais-and His attractive features. Krsna-svarūpa-madhuryais, aisvarya-and His opulences. Krsna is not impersonal, Krsna is person therefore He has specific attractive features, He has got opulences and He has got transcendental form. Krsna-svarūpa-madhuryais-varya-bhakti-rasasrayam. These are the attractive features or platform on which execution of devotional service can be acted.

So isaḥ, isaḥ, "The Supreme Personality of Godhead," Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is isaḥ. Īsaḥ. Īsvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ . Īsaḥ or isvaraḥ, the same thing, so He is Krsna. Therefore isaḥ, just like Krsna personally taught Arjuna about Himself similarly here although Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu is isaḥ, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a still He appeared as a devotee. So as devotee He is teaching what is Krsna. Krsna is teaching what's Krsna and devotee is teaching what's Krsna. Therefore the teachings of devotee and teachings of Krsna-there is no difference. Same thing. Just like Krsna says: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66].

Krsna personally, because He is Supreme Personality of Godhead He is demanding. He's commanding, and we devotees following the footsteps of acarya, we are saying that, "You surrender to Krsna." As there is no difference between the teachings of the Lord and teachings of His servant. Therefore such servant which teaches exactly what is taught by the master. He is representative of the master. Acaryam mam vijaniyan [SB 11.17.27]; Krsna therefore says, "Acarya should be considered as Myself. He should be worshiped as Myself." Tasmai deyam tato grahyam [Cc Madhya 19.50].

That is already explained. [coughs]. [indistinct].

Now Sanatana Gosvami after being cleanly shaved, having fresh dhoti or [indistinct] and that [indistinct] given up. Kanta, in this way Sanatana Gosvami fell down on the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya very humbly and began to place the statement as follows:

"My dear Lord I am very. Coming of a low family. I belong to the low castes." Just see, he was brahmana, he was minister, he was more learned scholar. But still he is placing himself that, "I am coming of the very low family and my occupation is very low," nica nica, "And my companions, my associates they are also low." Patita adhama, "They are fallen and the lowest of the mankind." Kuvisaya-kūpe paḍi' gohainu, "So I have wasted my time in this way enjoying." Kuvisaya, kuvisaya and kidisaḥ. Kuvisaya means that visaya, I have already explained, visaya means-eating, sleeping, mating and defending. So that is of course required. But one who utilizes this opportunity very lowly under different circumstances, abominable circumstances, that is called kidisaḥ. It is like you, eating [indistinct]. Nobody can say that, "I do not eat." That is not possible but eating anything that [indistinct], that is kidisaḥ. Just like human society there is sastric bhojaḥ. You can eat very nice preparations made of rice, dhal, sweets, sugar, milk, fruits, vegetables and offered to Krsna, krsna-prasadam, that is not visaya, that is not kidisaḥ-but I need some food.

Krsna also does not say that, "To become My devotee, you have to starve." Why? But for the satisfaction of the palate if anyone eats anything, nonsense, that is kidisaḥ. Similarly sleeping; similarly mating; similarly defense. If these things are done according to the regulative principles then they are not visaya. That is krsna-sambandhe nirbandhaḥ: nirbandhaḥ krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam anasaktasya visayan [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.255].

One who is not attached for eating. But eating is required for keeping this body for the service of the Lord therefore one eats krsna-prasadam. Anasaktasya, he is not attached that, "I shall eat so much, I shall eat palatable dishes." That is attachment. "Whatever Krsna sends, whatever Krsna gives pleasingly, whatever Krsna has eaten, I shall take little of it to exist." So nirbandhaḥ krsna-sambandhe; anasaktasya visayan: "One has no attachment for eating but one has to eat to render service to Krsna." Not that one is attached for eating so much. No. Let me, "There is very palatable dishes and go on and eating, eating." That is visaya. Even it is prasadam because I have got attachment to satisfy my palate, then it becomes visaya. [coughs]

Anasaktasya, therefore there is attachment, that we must always take. Even there is very nice palitable dishes it is not that I eat some sumptuously to my throat. Of course [laughs] krsna-prasadam you can eat, but we should be very careful that we should not be attached, anasaktasya visaya. Visaya: eating, sleeping, mating, we should not be attached but the necessary, yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati siddhaye [Bg 6.17].

The regulated eating, sleeping, mating it helps, but nonregulated eating, sleeping, it is not... it is desireful. When then you can not make progress in spiritual life. Therefore Narottama Dasa Thakura said: visaya chariya, se rase majiya, mukhe bolo hari hari. [Gaura-Nityanander Daya] "Don't be visaya, don't be attached to all these things." Se rase majiya, "You should be attached to Krsna consciousness."

So Sanatana Gosvami says that: kuvisaya-kūpe paḍi' gohainu. He was minister, he was always feasting, because the association aristocratic family, big government officers. You know their business is simply feasting and talking politics. So therefore he says, kuvisaya, kuvisaya paḍi and gohainu janama. "I have simply wasted my time in association with kuvisaya, undesirable association, undesirable visaya, eating, sleeping." Maybe that although he was born of a brahmana, he might have eaten as a Mohammadan because he was in Mohammadan association. So there may be. So he says kuvisaya, "I admit, I was." Just like in the association of the English aristocracy our people in this country, they learned how to drink, how to drink tea, how to eat meat, how to have illicit sex, they learnt all these things, and that was called civilization. Unless one does so he was not considered, "Up to date," and that is going on. That campaign [coughs] of Western civilization still going on.

So Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sanatana Gosvami says that: kuvisaya, kuvisaya-kūpe paḍi' gohainu janama; apanara hitahita kichui na jani! "Those who are too much attached to this visaya, they are not very much serious of self-realization. Sanatana Gosvami he present that:

Tai satya mani, gramya-vyavahare: because brahmana is generally addressed as, "panḍitji." So Sanatana Gosvami says that gramya-vyavahare, "By this ordinary neighborhood behavior they say panḍitji and I also say that I am panḍita." Because everyone thinks like that, everyone things that "I know," and maybe everyone knows something. That, "I am this, I am that," but that is not sufficient knowledge. Sanatana Gosvami therefore says: apanara hitahita kichui na jani! "Although I am addressed by my neighboring people as panḍitji-as learned scholar but if you kindly know that I do not know what is actually beneficial for me, I am such a panḍita. I do not know my own welfare but they say that I am very much learned." This is the position of everyone. Sanatana Gosvami is representing the ordinary cult of man. Everyone thinks that he is most learned but if you ask him, not only ordinary man. If you ask any scientist, any scholar, any philosopher. Generally of the modern age, they will say: "Well I have, my existence is from void and I shall become void." That is going on, voidism. "I. I. I develop some pastimes. By combination of matter my consciousness has developed, my body has developed so as soon as this combination is separated there is no more my existence."

So if you say. Sanatana Gosvami says that vastu-vak [?] that this reply is given by Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita that, "If you are born of void and if you are going to be void again then why you are lamenting for killing your relatives?" They came from voidness and by your killing they will become void. So from void to void and some temporary manifestation. Why you are so much affected with the temporary affection, if you believe like that? There is no question of, Suppose a man dies and his relative is crying: "Oh my friend is gone; my husband is gone or my brother is gone." Why you are lamenting? He was void in the beginning and again he has become void. So what is the cause of lamentation?

So this is the position, Sanatana Gosvami says: apanara hitahita kichui-"Actually I am not void." That much knowledge Sanatana Gosvami had because otherwise how he could meet Caitanya Mahaprabhu? That he knows that, "I am not void, I am something. I am spirit soul. I am spirit soul but I have forgotten my real identity. I do not know how to make me actually happy. That I do not know." This angle of vision is our Vaisnava philosophy. To make a solution of the miserable condition of the present life. One who does not know is blindly going without knowing the destination, they are not to be supposed very educated or [coughs] learned. So:

This is the position of a student surrendering before the spiritual master. He makes him blank slate. That, "Actually I do not know what is my real welfare. So as you have kindly accepted me as your student now you kindly describe what is better what is really auspiciousity for me." Just like Arjuna also surrendered to Krsna that, "The bewilderment which is now created, whether I shall fight or not fight. It is so exhausted that I am now puzzled. I am therefore accepting You as my spiritual master, kindly teach me what is really my duty." That was done by Arjuna. Similarly if Sanatana Gosvami can do that, approach the bona fide spiritual master, Arjuna can approach bona fide spiritual master. Is it not our duty to approach a bona fide spiritual master? What do you know? It is essential. The people at the present moment, they say, "Oh what is the use of spiritual master? How can I know who is a bona fide spiritual master?" But you do not know, that's alright, but a still you have to search out a bona fide spiritual master, that is your duty, otherwise you will be bewildered, you will be mislead. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12].

The Vedic injunction is one must, it is a must duty, not that I may accept or not accept. No. That is, Sanatana Gosvami is teaching us, how to approach the spiritual master, how to present himself humbly and meekly, these things are taught by Sanatana Gosvami.

This is the position of everyone. The same thing as Arjuna. Arjuna was identifying wrongly himself as one of the family members of the Kurus. That is so far the skin is concerned, there is skin connection. Material connection but actually he presented himself as a fool as Lord Krsna says that, "You are talking so nicely, as if you are very learned scholar but the subject matter on which you are lamenting, it is never done by any learned man."

"You are talking just like a learned scholar but your behavior shows that you are not a panḍita." Indirectly He says, just like sometimes it is called, what is called? Parentheses or something? In English. Ah, somebody. If you want to accuse somebody that he is a thief he may say: "Something was stolen from my room and the man that took, the man who took he looks like. He looks like." You see, that means that this man who has stolen my thing. Similarly Arjuna also was that, "You are talking very nice, learned man, but no learned man talks like this." That means he was foolish. A very gentlemanly, friendly way to suggest it. That is, "You are talking like learned man but no learned man talks of this subject."

So Arjuna was indicated by Krsna as spiritual master. He, spiritual master can say like that, chastising. [coughs] Here frankly, Sanatana Gosvami frankly admits that, "I do not know actually what is my constitutional position and I am very much eager to get out of the miserable condition of material life but I do not know how to do it." This is the position of everyone. Everyone is anxious. That... this boy, Mr. [indistinct], he was telling me that, "I am not feeling very satisfaction." Is it not? Yesterday we were telling. That is the position of everyone. Nobody can be satisfied in this material world, that's a fact. Because we are spirit souls, we want spiritual food. Material food goes for the protection of this body but so far I am concerned, I require spiritual food. Just like you have got your shirt and coat. Shirt and coat requires to be washed, that's alright, but at the same time the, I mean to say. The wearer of the shirt and coat, the user of the shirt and coat, he requires also food. If you simply wash your shirt and coat, do not supply to the owner of the shirt and coat food, then how long this business will go on? He will be dissatisfied, he will get lean and thin. Similarly human society, combination of this material body, subtle and gross but within that subtle and gross bodies there is actually spirit soul. That spirit soul must have food. That is spiritual food. That spiritual food is Krsna consciousness. Without this they cannot be happy. It is not possible.

This tapa-traya', three kinds of miseries, as I have explained several times. One kind of misery due to my body and mind, that is called adhyatmika, pertaining to the body and mind. Another kind of misery is inflicted by other living entities. Just like in Gorakhpur we were so much busy in driving away the flys and mosquitoes, you see. We did not do any harm to them, a still they'll attack. Similarly there are many, just like Mr. [indistinct] he charged notice [?]. The people are being killed without any offense. So this is called adhibhautika. Unnecessarily other living entities give trouble. [coughs] There is trouble, due to the mind and body, just as I am coughing, this is bodily misery, miseries. I don't like to cough, but because the body is now infected I am coughing. So this is called adhyatmika. Or I am not very happy in my mind, similarly other's giving trouble, that is called adhibhautika and there is another trouble which is called adhidaivika. Adhidaivika means, "Miseries offered by the demigods, the controllers of the natural affairs." Just like rain is controlled by Indra, the light and heat is controlled by Sūrya, there are many demigods, they're controlling everything. So Indra showers rain, too much, we become afflicted, we become inundated, flooded, but we have no hands, we can not check it. Or there is no rain. Indra supplies no rain. There is scorching heat; there is famine, pestilence, so many. These are called adhidaivika. So who can avoid it? But saner men who think that, "Why these troubles are there? What is the reason?" Unless we question like this it means that I am not developed as a perfect human being. These questions are there, the miseries are there and if one does not take notice of it then he is a fool, just like animal.

The miserable conditions, just like there is pour torrents of rain, you take some protection, you have made a shelter, or you take some umbrella. But the animal, it is standing, it can not take any protection. At night there is severe cold, you can take protection but the animal is standing on the road. A dog is standing out, he does not know.

One dog in New York the Dr. Misra's asrama, it was playing with some ball and the ball fell down on the pond. Like there was a small lake, and the dog jumped over it and it was cold season. The water was so cold immediately the dog died. So this miseries are there but those who are animals or animal-like, they do not take notice of it. They think, "Alright, it is alright, let me adjust things." And this adjustment for material miserable condition of life-a struggle. That is called struggle for existence. Everyone is trying to adjust. But that is not possible. Sanatana Gosvami therefore says: "So why these kinds of troubles are there? Why I have been subjected to this miserable condition of life?" That prasnaḥ-that question should be raised. Unless that question is there it is to be understood that he has not developed human consciousness, what to speak of Krsna consciousness.

"I do not know how to counteract these miserable condition of life."

"So my Lord I do not know, I have come to You to become Your humble student but actually I do not know what to ask [indistinct]. Better You think of me, of my miserable condition, You know everything. You kindly explain why I am subjected to the miserable conditions of materialistic life, how I can be relieved of these miserable conditions and whatever is necessary for me, You kindly explain."

So we shall explain tomorrow.

Devotees: [Offer obeisances, Srila Prabhupada Pranati]

Prabhupada: So Mr. [indistinct] if you have got any question you can put. He is very inquisitive.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Well suppose there is a statue of Gandhi.

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: Does it mean that you are not seeing Gandhi?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: First of all try to understand. Is that statue false? False. Is that statue false? Falsely represented? Do you think?

Guest: No.

Prabhupada: It is fact. So similarly here is Krsna's form so you might have not seen Krsna. Suppose I have seen Krsna, then how it is false?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That is a fact. You might not have seen Krsna. Suppose you have got the picture of your forefather, your father's grandfather's grandfather, the picture is there. You have not seen. Does it mean that your great-grandfather was not existing?

Guest: No.

Prabhupada: Then why do you say like that?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That's alright.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: But He came, that you admit, He came as a human being. So here, here we have got Krsna's statue or form as human being, not as a tiger. So if you admit that Krsna came as an human being and we have His form as human being then where is the question that God has no form? And how we have manufactured this form? Where is the question?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: It is not [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Do you admit Him as God or not? First thing.

Guest: Yes. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Then where is the trouble? If you admit Krsna is God and here is Krsna's form then do you think this form is false?

Guest: No. It is true.

Prabhupada: Then?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Then what is your question?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Many people may say many things, that is another thing. Many people may be foolish. That does not mean their statement has to be accepted. We have to accept reality from authority. Krsna, Krsna was personally present on this planet five thousand years ago and everyone saw Him and Krsna's statue is worshipped in many, many hundreds and thousands of temples and the description is in the sastras. Sadhu sastra guru vakya, your, if anyone has got spiritual master, he also accepts. So we have to take like that. Whether sastra, Krsna's form is there. Whether acarya's, sadhus they have accepted, whether my Guru Maharaja also accepts, these three things, when they are in collaboration, that is fact, that is fact. Sastra says that, "Krsna is like this."

This is sastra, in the sastra Krsna's description is there. And all of the acaryas, one has seen or not seen, doesn't matter. They say, "Yes, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. [SB 1.3.28]

So these are sadhus confirming and directly if your spiritual master. If you accept some spiritual, if he says, "Yes," it is fact. Then it is final, there is no argument. Sadhu, sastra, guru. We have to test through these three channels. Sadhu, acaryas, stalwart acaryas, sadhu, sastra-the scriptures, Vedic literatures and confirmed by the spiritual master. If these three sides are in collaboration then it is alright, that's all. [coughs] There is no more argument, this is the process of understanding.

How do you accept that, in the sun is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this earth, are you seeing that actually?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: From the sadhu, authority. Not you, you have to believe. If you believe the expert in geographic studies or astronomer then why not Krsna? Why not acarya? What is the trouble? Eh? You read in the paper that the Sputnik has gone to Candra-loka. How do you believe it? You do not go with the Sputnik, you read in the newspaper, how do you believe it? Eh?

Guest: By reading.

Prabhupada: By reading. And reading the Vedic literature, you have to believe. That does not mean you have not seen that's why you can not believe it. You believe in so many things without seeing. Why not about God which is impossible to be seen by you? So these are the process of knowledge. So that we have to learn, how to know.

[aside:] Where is Sahib?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: He is with Acyutananda Svami.

Prabhupada: He has gone with Acyutananda Svami?

Prabhupada: He has gone? He left a long time ago?

So our process is to take the knowledge from authority. Just like the process of knowing your father is to accept the statement of your mother. If the mother has said that, "This gentleman is your father," you have to believe it. You can not make any experiment. The mother is the authority. Similarly our authority is Vedic literature and Krsna is the father, Vedic literature is mother, so from the mother we have to learn what is Krsna, what is God. There is no other way. Do you agree to this?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Sadhu sastra guru vakya, there is no other way. You can not see God but there is indication of God in the sastra: janmady asya yataḥ [Vedanta Sūtra 1.1.2]. Brahma, para-brahma, the Absolute Truth is that from whom everything is born. That's very logical. Everything is born in this material world. [coughs] Here is a microphone. It is born, it is created by somebody. This spectacle it is created by somebody, this lamp is created by somebody, so why not this huge cosmic manifestation is created by somebody? He is God. What is the difficulty to understand? Because you have not seen, there is the only argument? Have you seen who has manufactured this spectacle? But it is supposed that somebody has manufactured it. How you can say that because you do not see the manufacturer that, "No. There is no manufacturer." Can you say like that?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes. So if everything within your experience is manufactured, or born by somebody, how you think that this material world this cosmic manifestation is come out from a chunk.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Do you think this is a very sound proposition? No. Janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas. What is that janmady, the original? Is He dead body or a living body? He can not have such nice plans from the brain of a dead body. Do you think like that? So nicely the sun is moving, the moon is moving, the seasonal changes, the exactly to the tides. And big, big [coughs] scientists, they have also confirmed, Professor. Professor Einstein, he said that, "As we go on seeing things there is a big brain behind all." How can I [indistinct] big brain? And as soon as you accept, "Yes, there some big brain, how can you say that He is dead?" Matter is dead, you can not say that this material world has come out from matter, matter is dead. This, this is matter, this is matter. Unless I have touched it, a manufacturer has touched it, there can not be this glass, there can not be this frame. Is it possible? You are manufacturer. The matter, the metal, does it take form automatically?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh? You have to make it. But you are not dead, you are living. Therefore this material manifestation must have been created by some living. So God is living not dead and He is conscious. As soon as you say, "Living," then consciousness. Full of knowledge. In this way you have to study. How you can say that it is material production without any brain, without any direction? That is unfair. Therefore you have to read sastra. Bhagavad-gita says: mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ sūyate sa-caracaram [Bg 9.10]. "Under My superintendence," under My superintendence-brain. Brain is Krsna. Material world is not absolute, the material world is created by Krsna. Can you deny this?

Say we are arguing, can you deny this fact? And janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnaḥ. Because He has got such so nice brain He knows everything directly and indirectly. Just like, not like us, we can understand directly, but indirectly we cannot understand. Just like directly I know this is my hair but how it is growing, you do not know. Do you know? How your hair is growing? You may put some theories, that's all. But you do not know. Directly you see that you are eating but how it is transformed into blood, that you do not know, neither you can see, how the food has gone to the intestinal line and the stomach and how it is being formed into secretion and blood. There is theory but you can not see. So directly you can see, indirectly you can not see but Krsna directly and indirectly knows. That is also stated: "I know everything: past, present, future." That is God. He knows how it is created, He knows what He spoke to the Sun-god forty millions, forty millions of years ago. He said:

"I told this Bhagavad-gita first to Sun-god." If you calculate it will be not less than forty millions of years. How He could remember? Arjuna also inquired: "How can I believe that You told because You are contemporary of me?" What Krsna's replied? His reply said: "Yes, you and Me were born many times but you have forgotten, I do not forget." And that is the difference between Krsna and you. Although He is born like a human being. Therefore Krsna says: avajananti mam mūḍha [Bg 9.11]. "Those who are mūḍhas, rascals, asses, they think that I am a human being. I am not a human being." Param bhavam ajananto-"He does not know what is My power."

So if you consider Krsna as one of you then that is foolishness. Krsna is God. He is accepted by all authorities. So what is your question? God, because we have not seen God therefore there is no God? Is that your question?

Guest: No. [indistinct] form [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Form you are not seeing? We are simply wasting time having some imaginary form? And these, all these boys and girls, they have sacrificed everything to worship some imaginary form. Do you think like that? They are so crazy? Do you think like that?

Guest: [indistinct] form Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes

Guest: [indistinct] what form is in Godhead. The form.

Prabhupada: This is form of Krsna. Here is Krsna. Venum. We get from sastra: He is playing on flute, His eyes are like lotus petals, He is with Radharani:

These things are there in the sastras and actually when Krsna was present He manifested Himself so where is the doubt? This is accepted by the acaryas. So where is the question of doubt?

Guest: [indistinct] none.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: I have no doubt.

Prabhupada: That is good. There is no question of love. Krsna, as He is exactly, we are worshipping. And another thing you should know, Krsna being absolute, Krsna and Krsna's name, Krsna's form are not different from Krsna. Don't think that we are worshiping Krsna, it is idol worship. No. It is directly Krsna worship, directly Krsna worship. Just like you are directly seeing me similarly Krsna is directly seeing the devotee and the devotee is directly seeing Krsna. That is absolute, that will take a little time to understand but it is a fact.

When you put your letter in a mail box, it is small box, but it is putting in the postal. How it is possible?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh? You are not going to the Post Office, you are putting in a box but how that box is Post Office?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes. So there is link. So similarly Krsna has links everywhere, Krsna says:

Krsna claims that, "This matter: earth, water, air, fire, etc, that is My energy." So even if you say that this is a metal but even if this is metal, is energy of Krsna. You know energy? Eh? So He can act with energy and He is acting actually, whole world is going on under His energy: Parasya brahmanaḥsaktiḥ [Visnu Purana 1.22.53]. Just like the energy of the light is illuminating although we do not see how the energy is but actually the energy of the light. Similarly this material world is also a representation of Krsna, so even if we think that this is a metal thing but for Krsna it is not metal. Krsna. Because energy and energetic is not different. Sakti, sakti saktimata abhidheya. Just like this bulb, the original lamp is light, illumination and energy focused by the lamp, that is also illumination. How can you separate? So similarly if metal, earth, water, everything is Krsna's energies, so how it is not Krsna? How you can say it is not Krsna? Can you say? The energy. He claims.

So try to understand scrutinizingly that. It is not that we should accept blindly this question. So are you satisfied with this replies or if you have any other counter. We can bring them. Yes.

Krsna is not different from this world because the whole world is Krsna's energy. Just like the sun is situated ninety millions of miles away but the sunshine is here. Do you think the sunshine and the sun is different? Do you think?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh? It is. It is simultaneously one and different, in this way. But in the absolute world Krsna, Krsna's name, Krsna's form, Krsna's qualities, Krsna's pastimes, they're all Krsna. So that will take some time. So if we simply hear of Krsna by His names: Hare Krsna or by his pastimes we are in directly touch with Krsna. Because He is absolute. He can be presented, He is present in this sound, everything:

"I am spread all over the world in My impersonal feature."

But this Krsna; to the atheist is not Krsna. So these simultaneously, acintya-bhedabheda-tattva philosophy is very nice. Vedesu durlabham adurlabham atma-bhaktau [Bs 5.33]

Krsna is not to be understood by simply studying Vedas but He is very easily understood by devotees:

There are many instances, many instructions like that. You gradually will understand so I shall request you to come and attend the meetings and satisfy yourself with all questions. You are welcome... Hm... [End]