10--Conversation–2, 1970

Devotee: This is on now.

Prabhupada: What do you do?

Guest: Well I try to, I try to be good and remain avoid the wasting of life I always try to do good even.

Prabhupada: Good for yourself?

Guest: Not good... Good to other people.

Prabhupada: What you are doing?

Guest: Well I am, I am when I meet people they'll ask me what I am doing and I will say that I'm. That I am on a spiritual search in India and that. Well I will just, I will just talk, talk God with them, you know. I think that if, if you talk God well it will. Well it will bring some, some form of manifestation of God. You know just if you keep, if you keep talking about Him then something must happen, I don't know what. I know one thing that one man must try to be good to, to, to his [indistinct] you know. He must live in this world in peace. If it means that...

Prabhupada: You have got some idea how people will attain peace?

Guest: In the world?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: Well I think, ah, I think people must... people must obtain as much, lets say knowledge of the world through, through exper. I feel through experience of, of the world.

Prabhupada: Do you think experience is perfect?

Guest: Em! Well I think that unless one experiences it, the neg effects of it the material world then one can not have the realization.

Prabhupada: How experience should be gathered? You want to gather experience by personally experiencing or you want to take, accept the experience of others? There are two things.

Guest: Yeah, I understand. Em. Well may, it's now, now it's to, to, to accept the experience of others.

Prabhupada: That's nice this is very nice. So you have to find out the others who has got real experience, then your experience is perfect and if you want to experience yourself, then that is imperfect. For example, just like I take the experience of my father, or my teacher. He says, "A man is mortal." So this experience I gather from my father or some superior, that my destiny is to die, mortal. But if you want to study this fact by your experience, by seeing, studying every man, whether he dies or not-dies or not. So you have, might have seen thousands of thousands of men all dying, but you may not have seen thousand and one who does not die.

Therefore simply by seeing a fraction of the whole population, that they are dying, you can not conclude that man is mortal. You do not know that there, there are may be some man who do not die. That doubt will continue. But if you take the experience of your master or your teacher or say father. If you have got faith in him, that whatever my father says or whatever my teacher says it is alright. Then when you get the experience from him, "Man is mortal," that is perfect. You haven't got to take so much trouble to see and personally experience whether man is mortal. You take the truth from the right person-that man is mortal.

Now, another example, suppose you do not know who is your father. So by your experience you go on asking all gentlemen that, "Are you my father?" "Are you my father?" "Are you my father?" He says, "No." "No." Then you fail to know who is your father but as soon as you ask your mother that, "Who is my father?" And, "Here is your father." Is not that perfect? Whether by asking everyone you know who is your father, or to asking your mother who is your father, which is perfect? Which process is perfect?

Guest: I can understand this. I think, I think something has to be done in the. I think it is, it is an obligation of mine to to go back... I could stay in India all my life and many more lifetimes, and still not become enlightened but I know that something has to be done.

Prabhupada: The process of enlightenment, these two processes: you want to know who is your father, you go on asking the whole world, "Are you my father?" "Are you my father?" Everyone says, "No, I am not your father." Then you don't get information who is your father but as soon as you ask your mother, "Who is my father?" She says, "Here, here this gentleman is your father."

Guest: Yeah I, I understand.

Prabhupada: Then which process is nice?

Guest: But ah.

Prabhupada: You go all the world over to ask everyone whether he is your father or to ask that one authority, mother? Which one is better?

Guest: To ask the mother of course.

Prabhupada: If you have got such mother who can give you the right knowledge that is perfect knowledge. All others nonsense. So we accept knowledge from Vedas-Veda-mata. That is perfect knowledge because the knowledge is coming down from disciplic, tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye. The knowledge was transferred in the heart of Brahma by God-Krsna. That knowledge is perfect. Therefore Vedic knowledge is perfect. We accept Vedic knowledge as perfect, for example in the Vedas it is said that any stool of animal if you touch you have to take immediately bath because you become contaminated-infected. But if you take cow's stool, cow dung, even something is impure, contaminated, it will become pure. Now if you follow their argument, "How is that? That one school will say, 'It is antiseptic' and all other school will say, 'It is septic?'. This is also animal stool, that is also animal stool. Why do you contradict?" There is no contradiction. If you scrutinize the study other stool and cow dung you will find cow dung's all antiseptic powers, this is analyzed. Now to gather this experience if you directly take from the injunction of the Vedas you'll immediately become full of knowledge.

And we accept like that. We accept cow dung is pure and when used according to the Vedic injunctions then it is antiseptic. Now how it is antiseptic distinguished from other stool, that is already experimented, we simply take the mature experienced word that's all. But to you if you search to make, if you become research student, then you will fail. The best thing is to take knowledge from the authority of the Vedas. That authority, Krsna is the first authority and anyone who follows Krsna's instruction, he is also authority.

Guest: What about Christianity? I mean if I am, if I am say in India here there is great tradition, parents are Hindus and the son is Hindu so I mean in the West if the parents are Christian you are Christian therefore we follow the Christian tradition. Read the holy book.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: And we obtain knowledge from the holy book. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That's also good.

Guest: But and Krsna and Christ are the same. You were saying.

Prabhupada: No. Krsna and Christ is not same.

Guest: No?

Prabhupada: That is different thing but if you follow Christ. Some day you may be able to understand Krsna.

[aside:] Aiye, aiye, [Transl. Come and sit down.]

Guest: So Krsna is, is, is the concept of the father then?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Guest: Krsna is the concept of the father then?

Prabhupada: For now you are talking [loud noise] We say that if you follow Christ that is also good. That's not bad, but you don't think that Krsna and Christ is the same.

[aside:] Aiye [Transl. Come and sit down.]

Devotee: It's Maharaja [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Oh. bite [Transl. Sit down.]

Do you follow the idea? If, if a boy's learning in the school, ABCD, and another boy is learning in the Ph.D class. So the boy is learning ABCD, he is good. Some day he will come to the Ph.D class. But it does not mean that Ph.D student and the ABCD student is the same. Is that clear?

Guest: Mhm. [affirmative sound]

Prabhupada: Yes. So Christ, to follow Christ is good but that does not mean Christ and Krsna is the same. To follow Mohammad is good but that does not mean Mohammad and Krsna is the same.

Guest: In the Vedas, in the, in the...

Prabhupada: First of all you get your answer, your question was that Christ and Krsna is the same.

[aside:] Don't put your eyes in that.

Guest: Yes, but I am trying to relate to what is stated in the, in the Hindu books, Visnu is the creat, Visnu is the...

Prabhupada: Is the Supreme.

Guest: The Supreme, and all everything that comes from Visnu is incarnation of Visnu.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: So Christ is incarnation...

Prabhupada: Christ is also emanation from Visnu, you are also emanation from Visnu, everyone is emanation from Visnu.

Guest: And Krsna is an incarnation of Visnu.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: Krsna is incarnation of...

Prabhupada: Krsna is the origin of Visnu, therefore Krsna is not originated from anyone:

"He is the cause of all causes." You find, just like who is the cause of your existence? You see, "So it's my father." And who is the cause of your father? "His Father." You go on searching, searching, searching, searching, searching, then you come to Brahma, the origin of all living creatures. Then, "Who is the cause of Brahma?" And that is Garbhodakasayi Visnu, then who is the cause of Garbhodakasayi Visnu? Karanodakasayi Visnu. The Karanodakasayi Visnu, who is the cause of Karanodakasayi Visnu? Sahkarsana, and who is the cause of Sahkarsana? Narayana, who is the cause of Narayana? Krsna. And who is the cause of Krsna? No answer. That is said in the Bhagavad-gita:

"Nobody is greater than Me."

Aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg 10.8].

"I am the origin of everything."

Guest: Everyone.

Prabhupada: I shall answer. Today no, another day, just try to learn one after another. Today you try to understand how Krsna is the origin of everything. [Transl. _ You are welcome.]

Indian Guest: [Transl. We came.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Sit down.] He wants to show me some land.

Indian Guest: Acha [Transl. I see.]

Prabhupada: So you have got your car?

Indian Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: Shall we go now?

Indian Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: That He is the origin.

Indian Guest: Ah, He is the origin.

Prabhupada: That is tattva.

Bengali Guest: [Hindi]

Indian Guest: There is another tattva. [indistinct] Hinduism.

Prabhupada: Yes. That, it is not to be taken that...

Indian Guest: Actually tattva means [indistinct] ?

Prabhupada: Truth. Truth. Tattva means, "Truth."

Indian Guest: Truth. Not any means only. Not confined to anything.

Prabhupada: What is the ultimate truth, Absolute Truth?

Indian Guest: Absolute truth.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian Guest: That is, "I am the original..."

Prabhupada: Everything is relative truth.

Indian Guest: Ah.

Prabhupada: Whatever we see in this relative world, that is relative truth but Absolute Truth is called tattva.

Indian Guest: It is tattva.

Prabhupada: It is called tattva.

Indian Guest: Hah.

Prabhupada: That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, vadanti tattva, vadanti tat tattva-vidas, tattvam. Those who are in knowledge of the tattva, they speak of tattva like this:

They speak of although they speak in three ways, they are one. Yaj jnanam advayam, "There is no duality." Although the tattva is presented in three features, there is no duality, not that they are three. Do you follow?

And what is that: brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate . They are founded as Brahman, as Paramatma and as Bhagavan

Indian Guest: And Bhagavata?

Prabhupada: And Bhagavan.

Indian Guest: Bhagavan.

Prabhupada: Although they are founded in three ways: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, they are one.

Indian Guest: They are one, Brahman, even Brahman?

Prabhupada: Brahman.

Indian Guest: Not Brahma?

Prabhupada: Not Brahma, Brahma is a creature, Brahman.

Indian Guest: Brahman, sac-cid-ananda..

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahman means, "The greatest." The greatest-brhatya, Brahman. Brahman means, "Greatest."

Indian Guest: So [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti. So the tattva-vastu is known in three vibrations or three manifestations: Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. The example is given like this-just like the sun god, the sun globe and the sunshine.

Indian Guest: I see

Prabhupada: They are one, you can not separate one from the other. They are one. Whenever there is sunshine there is sun globe and there is sun god but at the same time sunshine is not sun god. The sun globe is not sun god.

Indian Guest: Sun god is supreme.

Prabhupada: Because from his bodily effulgence everything is coming.

Indian Guest: That is one way of knowing him, yeah?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian Guest: That is one way of knowing him. The Absolute Truth that is the original way. [indistinct]..

Prabhupada: Yes. That Absolute is person, sun god is person.

Indian Guest: And what about that, "I am one god [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Yes, that is, that is energy, just like if the sun god says that, "Sunshine is my energy." So there is no mistake. If the bulb says that this [loud noise] the light.

[aside:] Don't move the... [microphone movement] [indistinct]

So advaya-jnana, tattva-vastu, in one sense everything is one. Take this material world. This is a fact that whatever manifestation we see, take for example the trees. The tree is blue, some tree is red, some tree is some flowerism but the color. But all the colors are coming from the sunshine.

Indian Guest: Chlorophyl.

Prabhupada: But if you, if you say, "This is sunshine," that is nonsense. But it is nothing but sunshine. But if you say it is sunshine, that is not nice, you have to say it is yellow.

Indian Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: Similarly everything is coming from Brahman, and everything is Brahman in that sense but if you say that, "Everything is Brahman therefore I call everything Brahman," not by the names-that is mistake.

Indian Guest: What is name for [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes. Yasmad bhavanti vibhavanti visanti yam ca [Bs 5.51].

Yasmad bhavanti, the manifestation takes place from Whom. Yasmad bhavanti vibhavanti: "And flourishes," and visanti: "Again enters".

Indian Guest: Enters the same place.

Prabhupada: Ha. Tohe janami puna, tohe visari [samaota] [Srila Vidyapati, Tatala Saikate, 4].

There is a song, "Everything is born out of Brahman and again everything merges into Brahman." That is material, therefore material.

Indian Guest: So that [indistinct]

Prabhupada: But in the spiritual world there is no such process.

Indian Guest: Hah.

Prabhupada: It is eternal. In the material world your body is born from this five elements, it will stay for some time and again enter into the five elements. "Dust thou art dust thou beith." That is matter and that which does not extinguish or destroy after the destruction of this matter, that is spirit. That is spirit.

Indian Guest: These are My…

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian Guest: Apara-prakrti and para- prakrti.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, but He said this is My para-prakrti, apara-prakrti, He is always there. Before the exhibition of the apara-prakrti. He was there and apara-prakrti came from Him. He is still there, and the apara-prakrti again enter into Him-He is still there. Therefore He is eternal.

Indian Guest: And spiritual potency?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian Guest: Spiritual potency is para?

Prabhupada: That is para-prakrti.

Indian Guest: Para-prakrti.

Prabhupada: The para-prakrti is superior because it is not destroyed.

Indian Guest: It is not destroyed?

Prabhupada: It is not destroyed. Therefore it is called superior. Jiva-bhūtam. Therefore jiva is para.

Indian Guest 2:

Indian Guest: Another, in Bhagavad-gita you were saying even one who knows Him. That I am the person who, I mean creates and...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Indian Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes. Actually that's why I explained that before creation He is there. When creation is going on He is there and when the creation is annihilated He is there.

Indian Guest: If he knows Krsna is the Absolute Truth, if he knows about Him, he knows everything as He is.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore one who knows Krsna as the Absolute Truth-he knows.

Indian Guest: Now it's clear.

Prabhupada: His knowledge is perfect. And in other place it is also says: bahūnam janmanam ante, jnanavan [Bg 7.19]. Because he knows perfectly, at that time, after many, many births, that Krsna is everything-vasudevaḥ sarvam iti. Then even Brahman is also emanation from Krsna.

Indian Guest: Brahma.

Prabhupada: Brahman.

Indian Guest: Brahman?

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmano 'ham pratistha [Bg 14.27], Krsna says, "The Brahman is existing on Me."

Indian Guest: Ah. He knows all the knowledge of the…

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahman is generally, Brahman is all-pervading. Brahman is accepted as supreme.

Indian Guest: Ah.

Prabhupada: But Krsna says that, "I am the cause of Brahman."

Indian Guest: Ah.

Prabhupada: Therefore Brahman is not supreme, Krsna is Supreme.

Indian Guest: I see.

Prabhupada: Just like sunshine it appears to be bigger then the sun globe but actually sunshine is not bigger than the sun globe. The sun globe is bigger than the sunshine. Is it not? You can see the sun globe, it is situated in one corner of the universe, but the sunshine is spreading all over the universe. Now which one is important? The sunshine or the sun globe?

Indian Guest: If there is no sun globe there will not be any sunshine.

Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna is more important than Brahman. Because yasya prabha [Bs 5.40], this brahmajyoti is prabha-the effulgence of Krsna's body-rays. Just like the sunshine is the rays emanating from the sun globe therefore sun globe is the origin of the sunshine similarly Brahman is not origin, Krsna is the origin of Brahman.

Indian Guest: Brahma?

Prabhupada: Not Brahma. Brahman. Yes.

Indian Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. Krsna's body is not dead...

Indian Guest: [indistinct] even above that is Krsna, Brahman above Brahman.

Prabhupada: Above Brahman is Krsna. Brahman is emanation from...

Indian Guest: Krsna I think was adopted when He took birth in this world. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No. Krsna name is there long, long before His birth. In the Atharva Purana.. eh Atharva-veda there is Krsna name. And many Vedic scriptures, Krsna name is there. In ah.

Indian Guest: I am the supreme. It is there, I am the Lord.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian Guest: I am the Lord of the creation including Brahma.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: Can I ask a question Swamiji?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: What would man knows if? If, if just this moment, so if this moment is enlightenment or if this moment is. Is being as a man and suffering. I fail to see any, any difference.

Prabhupada: The man is always suffering.

Guest: Would it be.

Prabhupada: Not at this moment, in the past history also. The man suffered and future also, he will suffer. So it is a suffering place, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: duḥkhalayam, duḥkhalayam asasvatam [Bg 8.15]. It is a place for suffering, how do you expect no suffering?

Guest: Well I mean I don't... If I am suffering I realize I am suffering, I don't...

Prabhupada: If you don't realize then you are not man.

Guest: [indistinct] suffering, you know.

Prabhupada: If you don't realize then you are not man. You are animal. Because animal does not understand what is the suffering.

Guest: I don't understand the suffering.

Prabhupada: What don't you understand. If you... Because you are man you build a nice house, the animal can not. Because he does not know that the exposure there is suffering. Why do you build house? To get relief from suffering, that's all.

Guest: To get comfortable.

Prabhupada: Comfortable. But the animal can not do it because he does not know what is suffering. Therefore a man who does not know that he is suffering, he is animal. He's suffering.

Guest: If he doesn't know he is suffering...

Prabhupada: That, then he's animal. That means not man, he is not in knowledge.

Guest: But he is still in this moment.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: He is still in this moment.

Prabhupada: But everyone is in moment, the animal is also in the moment, it is also existing. That does not mean that animal is better than man. Man means he must know the sufferings of this material world-that is real man.

Guest: The suffering is being?

Prabhupada: Yes. To become... To accept this material body-means to suffer.

Guest: If one.

Prabhupada: Why you are covering this body? Because due to this body you are feeling cold, you are feeling heat.

Guest: That is part of the reason I cover, the other would be because these because of some former superstition to cover one's body but if. If, if I did act completely freely...

Prabhupada: If... There are so many if's, that is another thing. You have to adjust things with ifs. That is not perfect knowledge. "If, if, if. If I be this. If I be some god, if I become this or..." These are ifs, these are not facts.

Indian Guest: What if [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian Guest: Full of sickness, sufferings, death.

Prabhupada: So many, so many sufferings. If you are, if anyone is very comfortably seated, [Transl. Today my health is not good. I will not talk. What's that?] Why? That is suffering. "Oh today I don't want to talk, I am not in my mood." So mental sufferings, bodily sufferings. Why you are covering your face? Suffering from the sunshine.

Guest: Is, is it suffering?

Prabhupada: Yes. Why you are covering then?

Devotee: Can't you handle it?

Guest: [Laughs] Why not? [Laughs] I mean a man can do anything he wants to do.

Prabhupada: No, because you are suffering therefore he has to do. He tries simply to get out of the suffering, that is his activity. That is struggle for existence. He is suffering but a foolish man does not understand that, "I am suffering." He is thinking, "I am enjoying," that is called illusion-maya. He is suffering and he is accepting it as enjoyment.

Indian Guest: That stage is also high stage, you know…

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian Guest: That stage is also very high stage, you know when a man gets to that sort of a level, you know. Where…

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore there are books, you have to take that knowledge from the books.

Indian Guest: Ah. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That Krsna says, Krsna says that: duḥkhalayam asasvatam [Bg 8.15], "This material world is full of miseries," and if somebody says, "Oh where there is miseries? I am enjoying," then he is a fool. Krsna the, the best authority, He says that, "This material world is a place of suffering." And if somebody says, "No, there is no suffering," then he is animal. This is animal consciousness.

Guest: You say he can read his animal consciousness, I don't. I fail to distinguish between animal consciousness and...

Prabhupada: Why not? That is another ignorance. Just like you, you just now, you are suffering from the sunshine and you are covering your face. But still you say, "No, I am not suffering." That is obstinacy. You don't accept the facts. Because you are suffering therefore you are covering and still you said, "No, I am not suffering." So this is obstinacy.

Indian Guest: [indistinct] so many [indistinct] suffering.

Prabhupada: Yes every, every moment we are suffering-but the maya is so strong that the maya is making us believe that, "I am not suffering." Yes. That is maya. Maya means, "To accept something which is not." So I am suffering but I am accepting it-not suffering. Therefore I do not accept the sufferings, this is maya. This is maya. Maya means not to know the actual fact-that is maya.

Devotee: Ajnana.

Prabhupada: Ajnana, yes.

Devotee: Avidya. [?]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: Avidya. [?]

Prabhupada: Not avidya. [?]

Devotee: But in the...

Prabhupada: Not avidya, avidya [?] is different thing. Ajnana-due to my ignorance.

[Transl. So let us go] Maharaja!

Maharaja: [Transl. Yes my lord.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes, let's go.]

[End]