Bhū-maṇḍala Diagram Discussion – July 2, 1977, Vṛndāvana

Probably it is science; otherwise it is nonsense

Tamala Krsna: They have to stand up on the chairs because it's so big. Big project. This is only one drawing. Imagine the planetarium. [break]

Yasoda-nandana: The directions are north, east, south and west. In the middle here, right in the middle, there is Mount Meru, which is very, very small. The scale, it comes to be one centimeter... What is this measurement estimate?

Tamala Krsna: One twentieth of a centimeter.

Yasoda-nandana: One twentieth of a centimeter is calculated 100,000 yojanas. One lakh of yojanas is one twentieth of a centimeter.

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, that one twentieth of a centimeter... One centimeter is about just the tip of the finger, so one twentieth of this is 100,000 yojanas. Actually, you cannot even see Mount Meru on this picture. It is so small that we could not even draw it. It's just a pinpoint.

Yasoda-nandana: Mount Meru is in the middle, and then, surrounding Mount Meru, is the whole Jambūdvipa. Jambūdvipa is 100,000 yojanas or [sic] 800 miles in length and width. These are the maps we have shown Your Divine Grace already previously. And surrounding Jambūdvipa in the salt ocean, this very little circle... The salt ocean is the same width as Jambūdvipa, or 100,000 yojanas. That is 800,000 miles. That is this all around the Jambūdvipa. Here it is. Maybe you can see. Then there is the salt water ocean. You can see here?

Bhakti-prema: No, Plaksadvipa is the orange dot.

Yasoda-nandana: Then surrounding Jambūdvipa then there is Plaksadvipa, the next dvipa, which is... Around the salt ocean there is Plaksadvipa. That is twice the size of the river we call ocean. That is 200,000 yojanas, or 1,600,000 miles. That is right in the middle.

Tamala Krsna: Actually, you can hardly see it there. It's very small.

Yasoda-nandana: Then, surrounding Plaksadvipa is another ocean, the sugarcane ocean. That sugarcane ocean is the same length as Plaksadvipa, or 200,000 yojanas, or 1,600,000 miles. And on each one of these dvipas...

Prabhupada: So in each ocean there are islands?

Bhakti-prema: No. These are all oceans.

Prabhupada: Simply ocean.

Bhakti-prema: Yes.

Yasoda-nandana: Now, each one of these dvipas are inhabited[?] by different sons of Maharaja Priyavrata. Maharaja Priyavrata had so many sons, and each one of their sons...

Prabhupada: No, no, but the sun is the king, but he is ruling over the ocean?

Tamala Krsna: No, he is ruling over the dvipa.

Bhakti-prema: Yes, he rotated around the Mount Meru. Seven times he went. And then to the [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Now, oceans, but there is no inhabitant.

Bhakti-prema: No.

Prabhupada: Simply ocean.

Bhakti-prema: Oceans. There are no dvipas, no islands. Islands are surrounded by oceans, I mean, oceans are surrounded by islands.

Prabhupada: So what is his kingdom?

Bhakti-prema: An island... Islands are so big, very big. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Where is the island?

Tamala Krsna: There.

Yasoda-nandana: The islands are surrounding the oceans. It goes in a circle. There's a whole ocean surrounds one island. And each island is divided by seven mountains and seven rivers, and the main sons of Maharaja Priyavrata, they also have sons, and each one of those seven divisions are being ruled by the seven grandsons of Maharaja Priyavrata like this.

Tamala Krsna: In other words, Srila Prabhupada, Priyavrata had seven children, seven islands, and each one of them had seven children. So each son of Priyavrata divided his island in seven parts, and it was given to one of the grandsons of Priyavrata. We could not show that because it's so small. This is drawn exactly to scale. In order to include all of the Bhū-manḍala we had to make everything else very small because, as you'll see, most of Bhū-manḍala is made up of Loka-varsa and Lokaloka Mountain. Everything else is very small compared to those two.

Yasoda-nandana: Surrounding the sugarcane ocean, there is Salmalidvipa, where again there are seven divisions of land, seven rivers...

Prabhupada: So island and surrounded by ocean, like that.

Bhakti-prema: Yes.

Yasoda-nandana: Salmalidvipa is that little purple here. Still, it is very difficult to see. And surrounding Salmalidvipa is an ocean of liquor, Sura-sagara. There's an ocean of liquor. Then there is Kusadvipa.

Tamala Krsna: Which one is that?

Yasoda-nandana: The little red circle is the Sura-sagara. Then the little green here is the Kusadvipa. One particular feature of this land is that there's very..., kusa grass, which is very, very cooling. It is all over the island. And then there is the ghee ocean which is surrounding Kusadvipa. That is the dark green.

Tamala Krsna: Dark green.

Yasoda-nandana: No, the ghee ocean is the yellow color. The ghee ocean is surrounding the Kusadvipa. In fact, again surrounding the ghee ocean is Krauncadvipa, but Krauncadvipa is 1,600,000 yojanas in width. That means 12,800,000 miles. It is getting bigger, twice as big, as we go further. And past Krauncadvipa, surrounding Krauncadvipa, is the milk ocean, and this milk ocean is surrounding the whole Krauncadvipa. And then again there is mention that the Svetadvipa Ocean, the Svetadvipa where Lord Visnu... Lord Visnu resides there in white island. This Your Divine Grace has described in the Caitanya-caritamrta.

Bhakti-prema: Ksirodakasayi Visnu resides there.

Yasoda-nandana: Yes, ksira. Ksira means milk. Sakadvipa is surrounding the milk ocean.

Tamala Krsna: What color is it?

Yasoda-nandana: Sakadvipa, it is green, this green here. It is pale green. And Sakadvipa is surrounded by the yogurt ocean, dahi, dahi ocean. This is the white here. This yogurt ocean is 3,200,000 yojanas, or 25,600,000 miles of width. Then, surrounding this yogurt ocean is Puskaradvipa. This is the reddish brown here. Puskaradvipa is 6,400,000 yojanas in width, or 51,200,000 miles. And here, in the middle of Puskaradvipa, all around is the Manasottara range of mountains, which is situated in the middle and which has a width of 10,000 yojanas. Now, from the middle of Mount Meru until Puskaradvipa it is calculated to be 15,750,000 yojanas.

Tamala Krsna: We calculated all these...

Yasoda-nandana: This was all calculated according to the Bhagavatam. And then, on the four corners, on top of this Manasottara range of mountains, the loka-palas, Mahendra, Varuna, Kuvera, they are residing in these four corners, guarding the directions of the universe. And past...

Tamala Krsna: Now wait a moment. What goes there? The most important thing is that on top of that Manasottara range...

Yasoda-nandana: On top of the Manasottara range... If this map could be placed on the ground and Mount Meru would be like this, and all the oceans go around, the sun, which is again 16,000 yojanas above Mount Meru, goes all around Mount Manasottara, continuously, every day.

Tamala Krsna: So where does it go now? Where does the sun go?

Yasoda-nandana: The sun would go like this, all around. It would be above. It's constantly moving round the top, circumambulating the Mount Meru and going just above the Manasottara range of mountains. This little brown line, gray line, within the circle is the Manasottara range of mountains. And surrounding this Puskaradvipa there is sweet-water ocean throughout the whole... There's sweet-water ocean. It's 6,400,000 yojanas, or 51,200,000 miles. And past the sweet-water ocean there is Kancana-bhūmi, or a golden land, where everything... This is a land that's described to be just like a mirror, where no living being can be, because as soon as something is dropped there, it disappears. That is a very particular feature of this land. This land, this golden land, is 15,750,000 yojanas. That means that this land here... The width of this land is the same as between Manasottara Mountain and the middle of Mount Meru. It is very scientific like this. And past this golden land...

Tamala Krsna: We used a calculator to calculate all this.

Yasoda-nandana: Past this golden land, until here, is the Lokaloka Mountain, which is the border between this Aloka-varsa, or the uninhabited land, and the inhabited place. This Aloka-varsa is constituted to be a protective mountain that stops the rays of the sun to go beyond this portion. And it goes very, very high, it is described. It goes higher than Dhruvaloka. So the whole planetary system of Bhū-manḍala is like a big lotus flower with very high, high petals. It is very wonderful.

Tamala Krsna: Which is that Lokaloka?

Yasoda-nandana: This is the Lokaloka mountain.

Tamala Krsna: Just see how much it is, Srila Prabhupada. It's like the whole Bhū-manḍala is protected by a huge mountain.

Prabhupada: Karach.[?]

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. And only in the very center are these inhabited lands of Bhū-manḍala.

Prabhupada: The sun is above them?

Tamala Krsna: Not above Lokaloka. Inside, within.

Yasoda-nandana: If this would be on the floor, that means Mount Meru would be 84,000 yojanas. Then, above Mount Meru, 16,000 yojanas above, is the sun. But then, so that the rays of the sun would not penetrate in that land all around, this great mountain, Lokaloka, extends all the way up to Svarga. So it is like a big, big cup, in which the middle of the cup, or the bottom, there is all of these planets, all of this Bhū-manḍala. And past this Lokaloka range of mountains is this Aloka-varsa, which is described that there is no living being which can go to there. The only occasion where anyone went through there is when Krsna and Arjuna went to see the Maha-Visnu in the spiritual sky. So Krsna with His cakra penetrated through all of these regions, and then He went through all of the coverings of the universe who were there. That was the only occasion where anyone went to this land. So this is a general picture of Bhū-manḍala.

Tamala Krsna: To scale.

Prabhupada: Then the sun... Above the sun there is moon.

Yasoda-nandana: Yes, and above the sun there is the moon.

Tamala Krsna: That we have to...

Yasoda-nandana: That is our next project.

Bhakti-prema: Sixteen lakhs miles above the sun there is moon.

Tamala Krsna: So far, we have stayed in the Bhū-manḍala. We've now... This picture covers Bhū-manḍala. We were thinking to do one more-we can do it later on-one more drawing to give it more detail, because the center of Meru and Jambūdvipa and salt ocean are so small on this map you cannot even see it. So we want to...

Prabhupada: Hmm, in detail.

Tamala Krsna: We want to blow up one area, like they do on some maps. They show one city bigger than other places 'cause it's important. And after that, our next business is to now go upwards. Now we've gone outward this way. Now we have to show the sun, the moon, the sapta-rsis, everything like that. That'll be very nice doing, how the sun is...

Yasoda-nandana: Another unique feature of this map is that... Bhakti-prema Maharaja found about... There is one space which is mentioned by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentary. The complete diameter from west to east and north to south, it is calculated to be 500,000,000 yojanas. So in order to be able to adjust that, we needed 250,000,000 yojanas on each side.

Tamala Krsna: That means 4,000,000,000 miles.

Prabhupada: That I have given there.

Tamala Krsna: Yes.

Yasoda-nandana: Yes, that was mentioned. His Divine Grace has mentioned this. So the total distance of all of these was coming to about 496. So we understood from the commentary of Visvanatha Cakravarti that there is a little space, vacant space. Between this vacant land there is a little guarded space, between this Aloka-varsa and the covering of the universe, which is 1,700,000 yojanas on each side of the universe. And Visvanatha Cakravarti explains that the reason for this is that under all the planetary systems there is the eight elements, which are sustaining all the Bhū-manḍalas and all the lower planetary systems. And if this is touching the side of the universe, then these elements would have nothing to do. There would be no function for them. Therefore, that is one reason... And another reason he was giving is that when Varaha-avatara lifted the earth, if the Bhū-manḍala is touching the side of the universe, then there's no place to lift it. Therefore, by his calculations... You have given that a very long purport with all the Sanskrit. According to Jyotir Veda, like this, it was mentioned that there is little space between the outer part of the universe and Aloka-varsa. That is the space, so that Varaha could lift up the earth from the Garbhodaka Ocean. [Prabhupada chuckles]

Bhakti-prema: [indistinct] Mountain.

Tamala Krsna: I think, Srila Prabhupada, that you gave that right in the purport, in [indistinct] appearance. See, you gave this huge... It says here, "However, the technical terms used in the astronomical calculations given by the Jyotir Veda are difficult to translate into English. Therefore, to satisfy the reader, we may include the exact Sanskrit statement given by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, which records exact calculations regarding universal affairs." And then you give this huge Sanskrit quotation. And from reading this, Bhakti-prema Maharaja found out that there is space. Due to this purport we got that information. So it was perfectly put in here. It's very nice.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: So I think that Svarūpa Damodara will be helped by these drawings once the men come. 'Cause he said that even though they are scientists, they could not understand this volume. It's been a mystery practically. These drawings, one by one, should be able to help in the creation of that planetarium.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Hare Krsna.

Tamala Krsna: Now we have to figure out how to preserve these, Srila Prabhupada. Puskara Prabhu was concerned how to preserve these pictures, and we were thinking that maybe they should be mounted on canvas and stretched.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: And that way, they can be preserved.

Prabhupada: Like map.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, oh, like a map. Once they are put on canvas, can they be rolled, Puskara?

Puskara: Yeah. The best thing is to put them on a board and just permanently put these onto the best possible...

Tamala Krsna: He says the best thing is to mount them on something and then display them somewhere, keep them permanently that way, stretched out.

Puskara: Every time you roll it, it gets ruined more.

Tamala Krsna: Every time you have to roll it...

Prabhupada: Take one room in the gurukula building.

Tamala Krsna: It will be very interesting. They can use this for teaching.

Prabhupada: Yes. Explain there in bold and this picture.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, explanation next to it. This book is the explanation.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: It's amazing how Krsna has made each universe. It's just like all the fruits. When you get a fruit, it's protected by a skin. This universe is very much protected, first by uninhabited land, then by huge mountain, then by golden land. And then only in the center of these dvipas there are all the inhabitants and all the activities are going on. Very much protected.

Prabhupada: And they are going to the moon. [devotees laugh] I... So far I remember, the moon is also like the sun, that it is fire blazing, but it is surrounded by a cool atmosphere. Therefore it is soothing. I think there is such description.

Bhakti-prema: Srimad-Bhagavatam says the moon is also [indistinct].

Tamala Krsna: How far do they, the scientists, say the moon is from the earth? How long? I have a book which says it, and I'm bringing this book. It's very... You'll see it here. It's nonsense.

Bhakti-prema: Twenty-four lakhs miles.

Tamala Krsna: Twenty-four lakhs miles, the scientists say?

Bhakti-prema: No.

Tamala Krsna: What do the scientists say? How...?

Prabhupada: Two lakhs.

Tamala Krsna: Two lakhs miles, 250,000 miles. So that means about, in yojanas, very little-about 25-, 30,000 yojanas.

Yasoda-nandana: They say the sun is 93,000,000 away.

Bhakti-prema: I think the business of the [indistinct].

Tamala Krsna: They have froglike brains.

Prabhupada: That, the microscope... What is called? Telescope.

Tamala Krsna: This is the book of the rascal scientists. They describe the solar system according to their nonsense. The solar system... Gives all the calculations. They calculated how much it weighs on each planet. [laughs] They haven't even been there. They say that each planet has moons. Says here-this is how scientific they are-"Pluto was discovered only in 1930, and as yet, little is known about this remote planet. Pluto is much smaller than Neptune and has a diameter probably about..."

Prabhupada: "Probably."

Tamala Krsna: "...half the size."

Prabhupada: "Probably."

Tamala Krsna: "The orbit of Pluto is extremely elliptical, and the day is some 6,109 hours long. There is probably no atmosphere, and there are no known moons."

Prabhupada: "Probably." Their science is "probably." Probably it is science; otherwise it is nonsense. [laughter]

Tamala Krsna: It says here, "The moon is 238,860 miles from the earth. It has no atmosphere, no weather and no wind."

Prabhupada: "Probably." Everything "probably."

Tamala Krsna: It says here, "There is a thick dust covering and no evidence to suggest that the moon has ever supported life." In that newspaper article the man who is exposing them said-because they say it is covered by dust-"How is it that no dust is shown on the astronauts' suits when they walked around?" He says, "If there's such a thick dust, then, when the rocket landed, it would have made a pocket within that dust." He says, "But there's no crater around the rocket. Then how is it possible that these things are like that?" 'Cause actually they forgot. When they were making the stage-setting in Arizona, they forgot these points.

Yasoda-nandana: One argument Your Divine Grace gave in 1971 was that if they went to the moon and they found it like rocks, how do they explain the moon is so shiny and gives such a cooling effect? They cannot explain that.

Tamala Krsna: This is the earth. And this is a real question that we still have to answer. They picture the earth round, and we say, no. Bhū-manḍala is like a lotus, it's like this, and the earth is only one part of one island in Bhū-manḍala, and it's not, you know, it's [indistinct]. It doesn't look like that. And all the pictures they take of the earth when they go up in their satellites show round. And we're going to tell them that it's not. This is a very tricky question. In other words, if this is the picture of the world, like this, and we say that... If we take an airplane from here, from Los Angeles. Now, supposing we go to India, which is here. So there's two ways to go. One way, you can go like this, and the other way, you can go like that. But if the earth is not a round globe, then how is it sometimes people go from Los Angeles via Hawaii to Japan and then to India? So we can't figure this out. We have experience, those of us who have flown, that actually the plane went from Los Angeles to Hawaii to Tokyo to Hong Kong and then to India. So it doesn't work out in our maps so far, right? We can't figure it out. This thing has to be very complete in its answers. Otherwise everyone will laugh at us. We cannot leave any loopholes.

Prabhupada: So are you thinking on this?

Bhakti-prema: In the Srimad-Bhagavatam... According to Srimad-Bhagavatam, it is [indistinct], divided from the universe by the higher mountains.

Prabhupada: Find out from our side, according to Bhagavatam.

Bhakti-prema: Scientists are lacking in the main points.

Prabhupada: Yes. They "probably," so many theories.

Bhakti-prema: There is... Srimad-Bhagavatam describes about Himalaya. Himalaya is 80,000 miles high, 16,000 miles wide. That means covering more than earth, more area than [indistinct]. They do not think how many miles [indistinct].

Tamala Krsna: Then it's not so much. In other words, Srila Prabhupada, the Himalaya Mountains are here, according to us. This yellow here is the Himalayas. This is a map, showing all the mountains. So according to Srimad-Bhagavatam, how long do they stretch?

Bhakti-prema: Sixteen thousand miles wide.

Tamala Krsna: So the Himalayas are 16,000 miles wide. Sixteen thousand miles is a huge area, it's beyond this whole area. So according to the Bhagavatam, this is all Himalayas.

Bhakti-prema: Yes, then it is coming this side, up to Canada, this all Himalayas.

Tamala Krsna: So what is the explanation?

Bhakti-prema: And previously they..., there are nine islands, completely divided by deep oceans. They were extending for 8,000 miles each. And now those islands are not found. [indistinct]

Tamala Krsna: And how high is the Himalayan Mountains?

Bhakti-prema: Eighty thousand miles.

Tamala Krsna: Ten thousand yojanas, 80,000 miles. Here it says that "The highest mountain is Mount Everest, 29,000 feet." Not very high. That's about six miles. And we are saying 80,000 miles. So we want to know where is that. How high is Govardhana supposed to be?

Bhakti-prema: Govardhana [indistinct]. Govardhana mountain is sinking.

Prabhupada: Sinking.

Bhakti-prema: [Transl. Cursed by sage Agastya]. [break]

Tamala Krsna: So the Rand McNally Illustrated World Atlas, its special feature is that it gives maps describing all different subjects, like language. What language is spoken throughout different places in the world is shown by map, and the national areas, according to size, population, and cities, major populations, densities of populations. Like China is supposed to be... China. This shows proportionately in populations according to... This is India, the second biggest. Everything else is very small compared to these two, India and China. Agriculture, what kind of agriculture, natural vegetation, climate... [break]

Bhakti-prema: But there was no Atlantic, Pacific, Indian oceans, no. But after that, there were sixteen thousand sons of Sagara Maharaja. Then their sacrificial horse was stolen by Indra. So it was put somewhere in the earth folds. They began to dig the earth to find out that horse. So they dug all the oceans, [indistinct] Kapila Muni sitting there in the bank of the..., in the Bay of Bengal And it explains the curse, that he is the chief. And then there's [indistinct] burned him to ashes.

Tamala Krsna: It says here that "Only our knowledge of the crust of the earth is based on direct observation, but studies of paths of earthquake waves..." Then it goes... The only way they can understand is by direct observation. And that's very limited. Says, "All the planets were probably formed at much the same time." It doesn't sound like they have very much knowledge, Srila Prabhupada. Everything is "probably," "maybe." Says that "Probably all the planets were formed at much the same time from the same great dust cloud." After you create this planetarium, Srila Prabhupada, they'll have to rewrite all of these books. These businesses...

Bhakti-prema: Another book has to be written. Its name should be Easy-to-Read Geography or Advanced Geography. And also about history we have to write. Your Divine Grace will write Advanced History, and there the complete lifetime of Manus and Indras should be given.

Tamala Krsna: According to the modern thinkers, any further back than about three or four thousand years ago, everybody was living in the caves. So they think that all of our books are mythology, some dreamt-up stories by some people a few...

Prabhupada: So how they are writing of millions of years ago?

Tamala Krsna: This is all according to their mythology.

Prabhupada: No. They are suggesting.

Tamala Krsna: And, of course, they say that there were no humans around, just dust and water and earth. There were no brains at that time.

Prabhupada: Only brains are developed now.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, especially now, this century. Before this, everybody else was unintelligent, and now man's brain is developing to a higher and higher degree, and he can finally understand what is what. I don't think that... Your descriptions, especially this planetarium, will at first meet with a lot of heavy reaction. It is not going to be embraced immediately very favorably. It means that everyone who calls himself a Ph.D. is a fool, that students will laugh at their teachers, if what we say is correct. There will be chaos in educational circles. [Prabhupada chuckles]

Prabhupada: All right.

Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. [end]