Discussion about Bhū-maṇḍala – July 3, 1977, Vṛndāvana

'This is end of this position.' The same dog mentality

Prabhupada: And you think it is religion.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, and he's an animal. What does he know?

Satadhanya: And he's limited to a certain atmosphere.

Prabhupada: Ah, yes. He is animal. Know that. What is his idea? And he has not correctly estimated how high is Himalaya.

Tamala Krsna: No. A gross underestimation-five miles instead of eighty thousand. Not even close. That means he has no idea.

Prabhupada: There are... I have seen many places by aeroplane, hilly tract. Perhaps you have also seen. They could never go there. Hundreds and thousands of miles, simply stone.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, that we've seen.

Prabhupada: Who is going there?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah...

Prabhupada: You have seen from aeroplane?

Satadhanya: Some. Some mountains.

Tamala Krsna: In the Alps no one can go there. There's places in the Alps. There's simply so many mountains, no one can go there. The map as the modern people show it-India, Africa, Europe, America, North America, South America-do we accept that much?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Do we accept the contour of the continents? Do we accept the general continents?

Prabhupada: We accept nothing of their theory. They are prejudiced and nonsense. Formerly they were speaking that the world is flat. Now they have changed: "It is round." So what is the value of his estimate? And you'll find in that book, "probably."

Tamala Krsna: That was the most frequent word used.

Prabhupada: Yes. So what is the value of their knowledge? Besides that, they'll insist that life is combination of chemicals, and they cannot produce it. Simply useless. So it is, what is called, childish obstinacy. So why shall I believe them? Just like a child cries, "I want. I want," it is like that. There is no science. Still they will say it is science.

Tamala Krsna: It's nescience.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Tamala Krsna: Nescience.

Prabhupada: Where is the proof that you'll produce life from chemicals? We say it cannot be, and they say, "Yes, it is..."

Tamala Krsna: Everything in life comes from some other life.

Prabhupada: We say that "You have never gone to moon." They will say, "Yes, we have gone." Now they have mentioned, "It is hoax." So how we can believe them? What is the value of their statement? And they promise future, "Yes, we are trying."

Tamala Krsna: Post-dated check.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: So something's wrong with their instrument. When they fly from Los Angeles and their compass...

Prabhupada: Nothing is wrong. From their estimate it is all right. But there is superior power.

Tamala Krsna: They go due west and they hit India from Los Angeles, but according to our calculation, that's not possible.

Prabhupada: You can go further, but you cannot go. That is condition. You are restricted. The same, that you are bound up. If an animal can go further... But he cannot, because he is bound up. Ahahkara-vimūḍhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg 3.27]. He is thinking, "I am free." He is not free. So what is the value of his education? This is the real point.

Tamala Krsna: But they'll want to talk about another point.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Tamala Krsna: They'll want to talk about the point that the point on their compass that points west while they're flying in the airplane, and they keep it going west, and they eventually land in India from Los Angeles.

Prabhupada: You are flying west or east-you do not know. You are controlled.

Tamala Krsna: They say, "No, our compass shows it. And you accept the compass."

Prabhupada: That's all right. You are going west, but do you think where you think that the west is end, that is not end. You can go further.

Tamala Krsna: They say it never ends because we're going around the planet.

Prabhupada: No, that is his dog's mentality, going round. That is dog. He is thinking that "This is the area. Now I..." He's controlled by superior power, that "You cannot go." An example is... There are so many. "There are so many stars, moons, and we'll go there." But he cannot go.

Tamala Krsna: They say, "We accept this premise, that we are limited."

Prabhupada: But then limited, you cannot say final.

Tamala Krsna: "But we say within our limited means we can understand that..."

Prabhupada: And limited means if you understand that "I am bound up. I am going round the law," that is all right. But don't say that "Beyond this limit there is nothing."

Tamala Krsna: No, they don't.

Prabhupada: No.

Tamala Krsna: But supposing that within this limit we accept that we are limited.

Prabhupada: That is all right.

Tamala Krsna: But we say that we're going west and...

Prabhupada: That's right, west up to this point, rascal, not more than that. Why don't you understand this? West you have gone. That's all right. But after this point, no more. You cannot go. You don't say that there is no more after this west... They are saying that.

Satadhanya: Yeah, they say, "Then west becomes east."

Tamala Krsna: Right, they say.

Satadhanya: They say.

Prabhupada: No.

Satadhanya: But why? Just because it is finished for them...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Satadhanya: ...'cause they are limited.

Prabhupada: Unlimited.

Tamala Krsna: But how do they fly direct to India?

Prabhupada: Unlimited way.

Tamala Krsna: This question they're still going to put. They're still going to put this question, that they... We say, "Here is Jambūdvipa, and this is Bharata-varsa on the bottom, and you cannot go beyond Bharata-varsa because you're conditioned; you're limited. That is our position. And within Bharata-varsa there is India. We accept that. Even we accept that. There are oceans. There are continents, seven continents, as described in the Bhagavatam." So their question is: "Okay, but then how do you explain that you can go this direction and you come out in India, over..., back here?"

Prabhupada: We don't say that, that this direction, what you are saying, it is end. That is not. We say that.

Tamala Krsna: That it doesn't end.

Prabhupada: That you can go further, but you cannot go. Therefore you are thinking, "This is end of this position." The same dog mentality. He is within that small area. He is thinking, "There is no more other space." That example is another, that bull. His eyes are closed, and he crushes the oil mill, going. He's thinking he is going three hundred miles.

Tamala Krsna: They keep the eyes blinded so they won't...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: ...understand what's going on.

Prabhupada: Because in one place, simply going round, going round, it makes one mad. So those eyes are closed. He is thinking, "This is the end of world."

Tamala Krsna: So you have said that, but still you have not given the solution.

Prabhupada: This is solution.

Tamala Krsna: You've explained it...

Prabhupada: Solution is that you are thinking, "This is this." You are making solution. You are making solution.

Tamala Krsna: We're trying to make.

Prabhupada: But I say, because you are limited, this is not this. What you are thinking, "This is this," that is not.

Tamala Krsna: So what is it?

Prabhupada: Kūpa-manḍūka, the frog in the well, he is thinking that "This is the whole water area."

Tamala Krsna: Then what is it? If it is not what I am thinking, then what is it?

Prabhupada: That I am explaining. Take it.

Tamala Krsna: But we can't explain it. That's the problem.

Prabhupada: No, no, why cannot explain?

Tamala Krsna: That's the problem.

Prabhupada: It is there, given in the book. What you are doing?

Tamala Krsna: According to the book, according to Bhagavata and the picture that we have drawn, there's only one way to go from America to India.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: There's only one way to go from America to India, not two-at least to our vision. So far, we have not been able to explain it. That's our problem.

Prabhupada: How do you know? What...

Tamala Krsna: Well, I'd better... I can bring our diagram.

Prabhupada: Here is America. Here is India. If you go immediately, then one way, that's all.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, only one way. But they go two ways.

Prabhupada: Two way?

Satadhanya: From New York or from San Francisco.

Tamala Krsna: They can go from New York, that direction, or they go from Los Angeles, the other way. Either way, they come to India, and they say, "That proves the world is round, 'cause we can go like this or we can go this way." But we say, "No, you can only go this way." They say, "But the compass shows I am going due east..."

Prabhupada: So we don't say differently. You can go this way.

Tamala Krsna: But we don't say that. Because there's no "round." We say basically it's a lotus; it's not...

Prabhupada: No, I... It is the same example. Just a animal is bound up, so he's going this round or this round, the same thing. But you cannot go beyond that.

Tamala Krsna: That they'll... "We accept." I'll take the view of the scientists...

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Yes. We don't say. Suppose you are going round, you'll go this round or this round, but within the round.

Tamala Krsna: Okay. But the whole question we're saying is that we say, "No, you can only go one way."

Prabhupada: No, I don't say.

Tamala Krsna: But according to our...

Prabhupada: If you are going round, you can go round this way or that way.

Tamala Krsna: But there is no round.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is round. You are thinking round. You are going round... [break]

Prabhupada: Lotus is also round. Lotus, that petal is also round. Lotus petal is round. So within one lotus petal this round or that round, there is.

Satadhanya: And within their own limited sphere they can go this way or that way. But they don't know the whole shape.

Tamala Krsna: We have to draw the shape probably, because according to what we've drawn so far...

Prabhupada: That you can do, but real thing is we can remain within the limit.

Tamala Krsna: That we accept.

Prabhupada: So within the limit... Suppose the lotus petal is this way, that way, or this way...

Tamala Krsna: You're asking us to draw the details and make a planetarium very exact.

Prabhupada: Yes. You make... Lotus petal, it is round. So in one lotus petal you are conditioned. You cannot go.

Tamala Krsna: So far that hasn't been said, but that's... You can say that Bharata-varsa is a petal of the lotus. But I think if you look at the Bhagavatam, it may... I'd have to see it, what it says. There's a statement that it may be the inner portion of the lotus. I don't know... [break] And what we do, it has to agree with the Bhagavatam...

Prabhupada: Lotus petal... There are so many petals. You are conditioned with one petal.

Tamala Krsna: That's... If that's the explanation, then it can be somehow adjusted.

Prabhupada: You do not know what is going on outside.

Satadhanya: There's so many round parts of a lotus petal.

Tamala Krsna: Yes, that part...That could be adjusted. But there's a place within it, you know, the center part, there's no petals. In the middle of the lotus there's like a... I don't know how you call it, but a... It's a flattish area. They show Krsna standing sometimes when they draw a picture of Krsna on a lotus.

Prabhupada: That's all right. But your place is in.

Tamala Krsna: That we accept.

Prabhupada: That we have to hear from authority.

Tamala Krsna: We accept that. I'm just thinking...

Prabhupada: Unless you are obstinate, you have to accept if you are convinced.

Tamala Krsna: We accept.

Prabhupada: There are so many millions of stars and moons that we cannot go.

Tamala Krsna: As we are conditioned, as everyone is conditioned, our planetarium will have to show the actual facts.

Prabhupada: Yes. That fact we have learned from Bhagavatam.

Tamala Krsna: So, so far we have not drawn this fact correctly.

Prabhupada: That is your inability. That is another thing.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, well that's why we're... That's the question that we've raised. This question that we've raised is due to that.

Prabhupada: That is you are unable to, but the fact is that you are conditioned. You cannot go beyond that conditioned.

Tamala Krsna: That's accepted.

Prabhupada: So we are also conditioned. But as far as possible we take description from Bhagavata, try to. That is our... Suppose here is India, here is Los Angeles. You start from India, Los Angeles..., or India, you'll come to Los Angeles. And again return to India. Similarly you start from this again going.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. That's possible if you can fly this way, underneath.

Prabhupada: But where is the underneath?

Tamala Krsna: See, Prabhupada, we weren't asking that issue. That's not the question we were asking.

Prabhupada: What is that issue?

Tamala Krsna: Well, what you've explained, if it's a lotus petal, then you could fly around it. That's all right. Then the answer is there. But if there's no lotus petal and it's simply flat, then it's a problem. That's a problem.

Prabhupada: No, we don't say flat.

Tamala Krsna: We've pictured it like that. There's some defect in our picture. If you recall, there's a picture we drew...

Prabhupada: So rectify it.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, well how?

Prabhupada: That is the explanation. Petal.

Tamala Krsna: See, it doesn't say petal anywhere in the Bhagavatam. It doesn't say Bharata-varsa is a lotus petal.

Upendra: Neither does it say it's flat, though.

Tamala Krsna: Well, I can get the Bhagavatam right now if you allow me to. It doesn't say... I believe it says Jambūdvipa is the center part of the lotus, and there aren't petals in the center.

Upendra: It's a transcendental lotus flower.

Prabhupada: You are prejudiced. That's all. If I can understand, why don't you understand? You are prejudiced.

Tamala Krsna: Well I can understand if I accept it as... I'm only trying to think as the persons who are going to make this planetarium.

Prabhupada: You are Western. You are prejudiced. That is reason. If I can understand why you don't...

Tamala Krsna: I can understand blindly, but I don't want to do that.

Prabhupada: I do not understand blindly.

Tamala Krsna: No.

Prabhupada: Then.

Tamala Krsna: But I don't want to...

Prabhupada: Still we differ. That means one of us is prejudiced.

Tamala Krsna: Well it's not Your Divine Grace. [laughter] I mean, I'm sorry I have to take this thankless task to ask all these questions.

Prabhupada: We are also prejudiced. It is written in the sastra. Accept. In that sense we are also prejudiced.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, but we're correctly prejudiced.

Prabhupada: Just like I take Krsna's word. Bas, fact. You can say that you are prejudiced, you see. This is the book.

Tamala Krsna: That is a nice explanation, the petals.

Prabhupada: Everyone is prejudiced. But who is rightly prejudiced, who is wrongly prejudiced-that is the...

Upendra: [indistinct comments with Tamala Krsna]

Prabhupada: That is everywhere. Just like materialistic person will think, "Brainwash. These rascals, they have given all up material enjoyment, and after some phantasmagoria they sacrifice everything. Brainwash." And we are thinking, "Oh, these rascals, got this human form of body, he did not understand what is spiritual life." Both of them-he is rascal and he is rascal. This is going on. Ya nisa sarva-bhūtanam tasyam jagarti samyami [Bg 2.69]. Is it not? They say, "Brainwash. Unnecessarily they've sacrificed everything." And we say that he got the human form and unnecessarily he is working like cats and...

Tamala Krsna: Both are saying the same thing. Obviously.

Prabhupada: Yes. Now who is correct? Who will decide? I accuse you; you accuse me. But who is correct? Who will decide? That is sastra. There is no question of argument. That is called pratistha. You will never come to any conclusion by arguing. I think you are wrong; you think I am wrong. Somebody must decide, judge. And that is sastra.

Tamala Krsna: Supposing they say...

Prabhupada: They say, we are saying so many things. In the court there are two parties. I say something, another party says. The judge is there. He has now decision.

Tamala Krsna: Then they'll ask for the verse to prove it, and we must quote the correct sloka to substantiate our claim.

Prabhupada: Yes. That the judge gives. Judges according to law book. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. So we have to approach the right person who can give the judgment. What is their answer about this, that by chemical combination they cannot produce life? Still why they are insisting?

Tamala Krsna: They are rascals.

Prabhupada: Then what is the value of rascal's statement?

Tamala Krsna: No value. Lunatic asylum.

Prabhupada: Why if one is settled up that he's a rascal, we should not hear him. And why not? He has not gone to the moon. They are insisting, "Yes, we have gone," by false propaganda. Why the one who makes false propaganda and one who says nonsense, we have to believe? Immediately, whatever he says, reject. There's no argument. You have proved yourself rascal, so we don't accept any statement. What do you think?

Tamala Krsna: Well I'm just trying to think of the description of the Jambūdvipa.

Prabhupada: Whatever you say. But be aware you are rascal.

Tamala Krsna: But we have the practical task of...

Prabhupada: No test.

Tamala Krsna: No-task.

Prabhupada: No test. Mother says "Here is your father." That's all. Finish. You cannot test. Then you are rascal.

Tamala Krsna: Not test. I said...

Prabhupada: No, these things cannot be tested.

Tamala Krsna: No, I'm not saying...

Prabhupada: Mother says, "Here is your father." That's all. Finish. No test. No question. That is foolishness.

Tamala Krsna: I was using the word "task." That to... Well, I'll have to bring in Bhakti-prema Swami. Maybe he can speak better. I'm not able to explain. But according to the description in the Bhagavatam, everything that we've read, it is not petals. So let's... I don't know. On one hand you are asking us to follow the...

Prabhupada: Bhagavatam, one portion may not be exactly like... Just like if you are in the midst of the petal, you cannot understand it is petal. You see it is flat. You have shown in the map, every point so many miles. So that petal, middle portion, you can take it flat. It is not flat. It is curved. Whatever conception you make, that is defective. Rascals. First of all you have to understand this. So don't make it like this, like this, like this, like... Whatever it is said, that is all right. Therefore Krsna said asraddadhanaḥ.

Tamala Krsna: Faithless.

Prabhupada: No faith. Faithless. We have challenged, by chemical combination make a small egg, sparrow's egg, and produce it.

Tamala Krsna: They can't do anything.

Prabhupada: Then what is the value of your experiment? And still they are saying. This one point will kill them. Why do they not take this challenge? Huh?

Tamala Krsna: They're rascals. There's no other answer. Only a rascal will go on maintaining that we can create life, and they never have.

Prabhupada: And they are getting Nobel Prize. Just see. Such rascals. And we say on the authority of Bhagavad-gita, apareyam. This is inferior and that is superior. So how you can make superior with inferior ingredients?

Tamala Krsna: Impossible. Without superior touch the inferior cannot have any life.

Prabhupada: That's a fact. They're seeing every moment.

Tamala Krsna: Everything has movement. If it's matter it only moves because of some superior force, living force, pushing it or entering it or something.

Prabhupada: The superior energy is utilizing inferior energy for His purpose. You are utilizing this inferior, the lump of matter, for serving my purpose. That is superior energy. It cannot use me for its purpose.

Tamala Krsna: It has no purpose.

Prabhupada: No. I can use it for my purpose. Therefore I am superior. [aside:] Come on.

Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, it's about three o'clock now.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Shall we go? [indistinct]

Tamala Krsna: I may have to go for that... I told Bhakti-prema Maharaja I would meet him at three.

Prabhupada: Go on. [end]