Room Conversation with African Intelligentsia–2 – September 23, 1971, Nairobi

So this soul is existing, but the body is changing

Introduction: [introducing recording] Evening, September 23rd, continuation of questions by African intelligentsia.

Prabhupada: ...yesterday? Hmm?

Syamasundara: [to guest] ...yesterday you asked a question. Do you remember? "What is our beginning?" Is that it? "Why are we existing?"

Prabhupada: Hmm? What is that question?

Syamasundara: [to guest] You ask.

Prabhupada: That I have already answered, that there is no beginning, because we are part and parcel of God. God is ever-existing; therefore His parts and parcels are also ever-existing. There is no beginning. The…, we are taking into account of beginning because we have got this material body. The material body has beginning, just like this material body is taken into account when it is born. But the spirit soul is ever-existing. The beginning is, means, the beginning of this material body. The spirit soul has no beginning, no end.

Just like in this present life you can realize that, as I explained yesterday, that you had a body of babyhood, then you had a body of boyhood, now you have got a body of youthhood. The body is changing, but you are the same. You can remember when you were playing with other children in your childish body. The same you, who is still existing in this body, he was in that childhood body. Similarly, when you get old, old means your body gets old. Just like I have got. I am old man; I can remember my childhood, I can remember my youthhood.

So this soul is existing, but the body is changing. Therefore this soul existed before getting this body, and soul continue to exist after annihilation of this body. Is it clear? Therefore the soul is ever-existing: there is no beginning, no end. The end and beginning is calculated in terms of this body, material body. In the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly stated there that this change of body is going on, so when this body will be changed, tatha dehantara-praptir [Bg 2.13]: antaram, another. After giving up this body, the soul gets another body, dehantaram.

Dhiras tatra na muhyati: those who are sober, those who are educated, intelligent, they do not bewilder. They know that this soul has now left this body and it has gone to another body. Just like if I leave this apartment, any one of you will understand that I have gone to another apartment. Does not… Because I have left this apartment, it does not mean that I am no longer existing. This is the position of the soul.

We can experiment, or verify, this knowledge even in this life. The same example: I was existing in my childhood body, I was existing in my boyhood body, I was existing in my youthhood body. The body is changing, but I am there. So I will exist when this body is changing. Is there any difficulty to understand?

Guest: [indistinct] so one who then exists when the body is dead [indistinct]?

Syamasundara: He is asking if God still exists.

Prabhupada: Exists in exactly the same way. When your childhood body is no longer, how you are existing?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Well, after all, at the present moment you haven't got your childhood body. Similarly, when you will not have this body, why not another body? What is the difficulty? You have got experience in this life that you were existing in your body when it was baby. Just like this child: when he will grow up, the father, mother will not cry or lament, "Oh, where is my son? Where is my son?" He knows that "My son has got another body, but he is existing." Therefore the very word is used, dhiras tatra na muhyati. Dhira. Dhira means those who are sober, cool-headed. Dhiras tatra na muhyati.

Exactly the same example, that this so many children there are, so when they will grow up the mother will not lament. The mother knows that "My child is there; the body has changed." Another example can be given that if somebody has seen a child, say a one-year-old child, and he is absent… It is my practical experience: one of my Godbrother, he left home when his child was one year old, and then after twenty-five or thirty years, his boy came to see him-he could not recognize him. Why? There is change of body. One had to introduce his son, "This is your son." "Oh!" [laughter] [laughs] Similarly, we are changing bodies, but the same son he could not recognize.

There were many instances. Just like there is a story of Sohrab Rostam. You know? The father killed his boy. They did not know they are father and son, and they fought, and when the boy was killed, then his father knew, "Oh, he is my son!" [aside:] Aiye, aiye, bhaite. The body is changing, but the soul is there. Why Rostam lamented for killing his child? Because he could not recognize that "He was my child. I could not…," because he was long, long away from home. So he killed his child.

This is very simple fact; try to understand. This is the first beginning of spiritual education. Unless one understands that spirit soul is everlasting, nityaḥsasvato 'yam, na hanyate hanyamane sarire… [Bg 2.20] That is the description in the Bhagavad-gita, that the spirit soul is eternal; it does not annihilate after the annihilation of this body. And this spirit soul has no beginning. The spirit soul is part and parcel of God. As God is ever-existing, similarly, the spirit soul is ever-existing. Just like as the sun is existing, the sunshine is also existing.

The example of the spirit soul is like the molecular parts in the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of so many atomic shining particles. This is natural. They are different. The sun-shining particles, they are different. But because they are combined together… Everything is atomic combination-in water also; in land also-similarly, the sunshine is combination of molecules, shining molecular parts. So as the sun is existing, the sunshine is also existing. Similarly, as God is existing, the part and parcel of God, shining particles, spirit souls, they are also existing. They are also existing.

So clear this part. Any one of you, first of all clear this part. That is the first stage for advancing in spiritual education. What is the difficulty in understanding?

Guest: The only difficulty… I, when I die, when I die and [indistinct].

Prabhupada: You don't die. That is my proposition.

Guest: My form dies.

Prabhupada: Form, yes!

Guest: Eh…

Prabhupada: Just like if you change this dress.

Guest: Now the soul will be given to somebody else, probably. Is that what you say?

Syamasundara: The soul will be given to somebody else? After using this body, the soul is given to somebody else?

Prabhupada: Yes. Somebody else... That I have already explained: karmana daiva-netrena, jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. According to your karma, according to your pure desire-karma means desire-at the time of your death, if your desire will create a situation, mental situation. Just like a businessman, always thinking of his business; a thief is always planning how to steal; a professor is always thinking how to make a solution of the mathematic problem. Everyone has got different consciousness. So at the time of death, the consciousness created by you by your present activities will carry you to similar bodies.

The example is given, just like air flowing through a rose garden, it carries very nice flavor. Similarly, the air passing through filthy place, it carries very bad smell. Is it not? Eh? Similarly, the mind, intelligence and ego is very subtle, subtler than the air. It carries a certain consciousness, and that creates another body. The soul is carried by that consciousness and put into the womb of a particular type of mother through the semina of the father, and the soul grows body in the womb of the mother. Just like a tiger grows the tiger body, a man grows a man's body, the hog grows the hog's body. The body is grown in the mother's body, and when it is complete it comes out and becomes this body.

Therefore this human form of life is a chance to understand his real position. In other lives other than human form of life, they are coming by nature's law, by evolution, transmigration-evolution, Darwin's theory of evolution. But the process of evolution are just like there is evolution in human life. There are 4,000 [sic] species of human life. They are 8,400,000 species of different forms of life, so other than human beings, there are 8,000,000 forms, and in the human form of life there are 4,000 [sic] human species of life. Therefore we find so many varieties; the two bodies will never coincide exactly, the different forms of life.

So when one comes to the human form of life, never mind whether he is highly advanced civilized life or uncivilized life, the human form life has got a special privilege to understand his position. It doesn't matter whether he is European or American or Indian or brahmana or sūdra-these are of course bodily differentiation-but the human consciousness is there. Therefore if we utilize this human consciousness and try to understand our constitutional position, "What I am?" and if I can understand that I am spirit soul, part and parcel of God, then my life is perfect.

So this understanding, this education, is not hampered. It is not that only the Indian brahmanas will be able to understand and not the Africans will be able to…, able to understand. No. Everyone will be able to, because that human consciousness is there. So my request to you African people is that you are now a growing nation; you try to grow from the solid basic principles of life, understanding, that spiritual understanding. Then your life will be very much successful; you will be an example in the world.

At the present moment people are degrading, degrading in this sense: that instead of understanding his spiritual basis of life, they are understanding on the material [indistinct], which is known. He is not this body, but we are trying to adjust things on this bodily concept of life. The United Nations, they are trying to adjust things, but the basic mistake is there, that all the people are simply assembled there, they are in bodily concept of life, therefore they cannot make any solution. And actually that has happened. They are trying for so many years, but because they are in bodily concept of life, according to Bhagavat they are all asses:

Persons, yasyatma-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhatuke… Kunape: this is a bag of three elements, kapha, pitta, vayu. According to Ayurveda, this body is developed on three material principles: kapha, pitta..., pitta, vayu, air. Kapha, pitta, vayu. The Ayurvedic treatment is on these three principles. Their method of treatment is they can feel the pulse, and by the beating of the pulse they can understand how these three elements are working.

And on that principle immediately there are formulas in the Ayurveda that if the pulse is beating like this, then the position of the body is like this. So they will enquire from you the symptoms, and if you say "Yes," immediately they will prescribe medicine. That is Ayurvedic medicine.

So this body, you may not understand what is kapha, pitta, vayu, but we can understand it very easily that if you dissect this body you will find some mucus, some blood, some muscles, some bones and so on. Does it mean that I am a combination of bones, muscles, blood, urine and stool? As such intelligence is coming from bones and biles and urine and stool? No. Therefore anyone who is accepting this body as the self is an ass. Can you combine intelligence by combining the stool, urine and blood and bones and biles and mucus? Can you make a human intelligence? Is it possible?

Guest: No, I don't think.

Prabhupada: That is not possible. They are scientists, but if you analyze this body you will find all these things. So if these biles and the bones and the stool and the urine and blood can be found outside also, so if you combine them and produce an intelligence like a great scientist or great [indistinct], that is not possible. Therefore Bhagavat says, yasyatma-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhatuke [SB10.84.13]: if we accept this combination of these three dhatus as self, then we are nothing but ass.

Therefore the first spiritual understanding is that we should try to understand that "I am not this body." That is Vedic education: aham brahmasmi, just to understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul. I am Brahman." And when you come to that understanding, then you actually become happy: Na socati na kahksati, brahma-bhūtaḥ [Bg 18.54]. When you come to that understanding of spirit soul, then there is no more lamenting and no more hankering.

We are embarrassed by two things: what we haven't got we are simply hankering after it. Just like you African people or Indian people, they hankered after independence. They got independence-India has got independence-but where is the happiness? It is simply [indistinct] simply hankering. So, so long you shall be in bodily concept of life, these two things-hankering and lamenting: hankering after something which we do not possess, and lamenting after something which you have lost.

So as soon as you come to the spiritual understanding, there is no more hankering and lamenting. This is the science. Na socati na kahksati. Samaḥ sarvesu bhūtesu: at that time one can see all people, all living entities, equally-universal brotherhood. That is the real platform. So they are trying to establish the universal platform…, brotherhood on the platform of these asses' understanding: "I am this body." But how the asses can make universal brotherhood? Is it possible? No. They cannot do. Asses are asses. Sa eva go-kharaḥ. Kharaḥ means asses. Yasyatma-buddhiḥ kunape.

First of all, first education should be that… Therefore our students formerly were sent to gurukula to have this spiritual understanding, brahmacari, that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul." So where is the soul's activity? Perhaps throughout the whole world the activity of soul can be seen in this Krsna consciousness movement: no bodily activity. This boy, Brahmananda Swami, his father has got very lucrative manufacturing concern.

He is manufacturing the plastic boxes; very profitable business. But he has left…, his eldest son, very beloved son, pet son, but he has left. Why? Because he has come to the spiritual understanding. He has understood that "I have nothing to do with this material engagement."

So unless people come to the spiritual understanding, there is no question of United Nation. It is simply bluff, or impossible. It is not possible. The first education is to know yourself, what you are: aham brahmasmi, "I am the spirit soul. I am not this body."

So it is clear that you are existing, your body is changing. Similarly, when this body will be changed, you will exist. What is the difficulty in understanding this simple fact? I am existing after changing so many bodies in this life-I was a child, I was a boy, I was a young man, so I am now an old man-so when I give up this body, why shall I not exist? What is the difficulty to understand? This is first understanding.

Syamasundara: If my real identity is spirit soul, what do I look like? What do I really look like?

Prabhupada: That you can understand by an analogy. You look like with two hands and two heads, er, two legs and one head. Unless you have got a head, you have got two hands, you have got two legs, how this body has developed with hands and legs? This body is called dress. Just like if you go to a tailor, he immediately measures your hands and legs and makes your coat and shirt.

Similarly, unless you have got hands and legs and head, how this head and legs and hands have come out? Is it very difficult to understand what is your form? You can understand your form by the form of your dress. If this body is dress, then from the form of the dress you can understand your whole form.

Syamasundara: Hmm. But very small?

Prabhupada: Certainly. That is also described, that is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair.

Anantyaya: many, innumerable, unlimited number. Sa anantyaya kalpate.

These are Vedic injunctions. As you have got a spiritual body, very small, similarly the Personality of Godhead, He has got a spiritual body. [aside:] You are going?

Brahmananda: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: All right. So there's no difficulty...

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Prabhupada: …to understand your form. You are not formless. That cannot be.

Syamasundara: So this spirit spark, this very small spark, has form?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Hah.

Prabhupada: That spirit spark is in the microbic germ and in the elephant also.

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Prabhupada: They have got different bodies, but the same spirit soul is there.

Guest: Now which one of these two, body and spirit, makes probably good or bad activities? Is it the bodies or souls?

Prabhupada: Good or bad activities, there you have to follow. Just like in your state there is law book, and the law book it is said, "You do not do this. You do this." If you're doing… Just like you are marking in your railway department, so there are… What do you call? Regulative books?

Guest: Regulations.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: Regulations.

Prabhupada: Regulation books. So if you follow the regulation, that is good. If you don't follow the regulation, that is bad. That is the standard of good and bad. So as you have got in the railway department some regulative principles, so why not in the big, gigantic universal state some principles which is given by God?

Therefore in the Bhagavat it is stated, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Religion means the regulative principles given by God. You cannot manufacture religion. Religion means regulative principles given by God-that is religion. Mr. Patel, is that all right? "The regulative principles given by God is religion." Is there any defect in the definition?

Guest: I don't understand that.

Prabhupada: Just like you have got regulative principles given by your railway authorities, is it not?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: Similarly, the regulative principles which are given by God, that is called religion.

Guest: Which are these?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: Which are these?

Prabhupada: That you find from the religious book. Just like the Christian religion books, the regulative principles is given, Ten Commandments: "Thou shall not kill." But if you are killing, then you are not Christian. You are violent; you're becoming sinful.

Guest: Is this also, I mean, a material given in Krsna's book or philosophy?

Prabhupada: In any book or philosophy. We are not bringing… Religion means the regulative principles given by God. That is religion. Any religion you take-Christian religion, Hindu religion, Muslim religion-there are regulative principles. So if you follow the regulative principles, then you are following the, I mean to say, orders of God, then you are religious.

So religious… Different types of religions are created according to time, circumstances and people. Just like in Christian religion the first commandment is "Thou shall not killing." "Thou shall not kill," that means it was preached among certain classes of men who were engaged in matters of killing. Is it not?

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupada: Otherwise why it is commanded, "Thou shall not kill"? So there are different classes of men; therefore we find different types of religion. Where there are men very highly advanced, who have nothing to do with killing, their instruction is different. Their instruction is: "Just try to understand that you are spirit soul, you're not this matter." And one who cannot understand this principle, the primary moral principles are taught: "Thou shall not kill," "Thou shall not [indistinct]," "Thou shall not..."

So this is also religious principle; that is also religious principle. Just like in pocket dictionary, this is called also dictionary, and the Webster's International Dictionary is a very big volume-that is also dictionary. But that dictionary is meant for a class of men and this dictionary is meant for another class of men. But both of them are dictionaries. Similarly, the different types of religious system is due to different types of men. But when you actually come to spiritual understanding, then you have to understand yourself, self-realization: that you are not body, you are not matter-you are spirit soul.

Guest (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: First of all just try to put some question. Let us try to understand this.

Syamasundara: [to guest] Weren't you asking also that which of these two creates good and bad activities-the body or the soul?

Guest: What I don't understand, actually, is that whether it is the body which makes bad activities or good activities, or is it the soul itself which decides to make these good activities or bad activities?

Prabhupada: The body is the instrument. Just like if I want to drink this water, so this tongue is the instrument to taste it. And when I taste this water, my thirst is immediately gone. So tongue is the instrument for tasting this water. Similarly, if I want..., if I desire some particular type of enjoyment, Krsna, or God, gives me a type of instrumental body, and I shall enjoy. The body is the instrument. The Sanskrit word is called karam. Karam. Karam means doing. Karanena. Karanena means by the instrument, by the bodily instrument.

So you are given. God is so kind that if I want, if I desire to enjoy something… I shall give you another example. You find that the hog, it eats, it eats stool. But it has got a different type of mouth. A tiger has got different type of mouth; a human being has got a different type of mouth-so different instrumental body. That body is offered by superior management, daiva-netrena. Daiva means superior, or godly; netrena, "by supervision." You are not the maker of your body. Is that right?

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Your body is made different, my body is made different, his body is different. Therefore I am not the maker of the body. I can desire that I want to enjoy this type of facility, and God gives you a type of body to enjoy that facility.

Guest: So should one believe then that one is born a thief, is born a murderer, is born good? The soul, is he so envious, born all these way?

Prabhupada: The soul is always good, but, just like the example is, just like fire and the sparks of the fire: fire is also fire, and the small sparks of the fire, they are also fire. Is it not? Fire… You have seen sparks of fire?

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: Are they not fire?

Guest: No, not.

Prabhupada: But sometimes they fall out of the fire, and when it is out of the fire, it is no longer fire; it is extinguished. Is it not? You have seen in so many fireplace a phut! phut! There are so many sparks. And as soon as the spark out of the fire it is extinguished. A minute before it was fire, but as soon as it falls down, separated from the fire, it is no longer fire. It is fire, but the potency of fire, illumination is gone.

Similarly… [aside:] Come on. Similarly, we are also fire, but as soon as we have separated from God, our that fire quality, illuminative quality, is lost, the spiritual illuminative quality. But it can be revived if that spark, that particle of coal or carbon, if it is again put into the fire it will be fire. It will become fire.

So by our desire to lord it over the material nature we have come in this material world, and God has given us facilities, that "You enjoy this material world to your best capacity." And we are doing that. That is hard struggle for existence. But we are not happy.

Guest: Even if as you say that you have..., I have a soul, and after having a soul like Russian, American and Dutch, now why didn't we have, I mean, all these different, different minds, or divisions…, varieties and divisions…

Prabhupada: Different minds, that the constitution of mind. Just like my…, you are sitting here, but others, they left. The mind dictated, "Oh, what is the use of sitting?" They cannot utilize the situation. So that is the business of the mind: accepting and rejecting. We sometimes accept something which we like, and we sometimes reject if we do not like. That is the way of mind. Mind's constitutional position is like that: accepting and rejecting. And that we are doing. We are accepting so many things and rejecting again. This acceptance and rejection is going on perpetually, being controlled by the mind.

But when you become controller of the mind, then your life is successful. That is called in Sanskrit word svami, gosvami. At the present moment we are being controlled by the senses and the mind, and when you become actually the controller of the mind and senses… Just like a gentleman has got good business, and he has given all power to the manager.

The manager has become so powerful that he is trying to control over the master. But if the master becomes strong and controls over the manager, then it is nice. And if the master becomes indolent and is controlled by the manager, then it is dangerous.

So at the present moment in our material existence we are being controlled by the manager-mind.

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupada: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, that you can make your mind friend and enemy. If you can train your mind, it becomes your friend so that you can come to Krsna consciousness and become liberated. And if you train your mind in such a way that it becomes your enemy, it drags you to the hell. Therefore the yoga system is an attempt to control over the mind. Yoga indriya-samyama [Bg 4.27]. Yoga means to control over the mind and senses. That is yoga.

By bodily exercise there is process, mechanical process, to control over the body and the senses, because our this tribulation, this condition, material condition, is due to my mind. I am desiring in different way. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]. Adanta, adanta means uncontrolled; go, go means indriya. Therefore gosvami. Go means senses, one who has become the master of the senses. He is called gosvami or svami. The sannyasi is called svami because he is supposed to have control over his mind and senses.

Because we are being driven to the hellish condition: adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram. Tamisram means in the darkness of material body; adanta, adanta means uncontrolled. At the present moment I am so…, I am put under the control of the mind. I cannot control it. Therefore the mind is dragging me to the darkest region of this material existence. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram, punaḥ punas carvita-carvananam. And what I am doing? Repeating the same thing-chewing the chewed, punaḥ punas carvita-carvananam.

So if we study all these statements in the Vedic literature then we come to the light. These are the facts. So human life is meant for this purpose-understanding. It is not meant for imitating or being carried off by the propensities, like the animals. The animals have no other business than how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sense enjoyment and how to defend. That is animal life. Animals are very much busy, "Where is eating? Where I shall eat? Where I shall…? Where I can stay? So how can I defend? How can I mate? How can I have sex life?" These are the complete occupation of the mind and senses of the animals.

But in the human form of life there must be something extra; therefore we find in human society there is some attempt for understanding God, and that is called religion. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg 15.15]. The Vedas are giving instruction. But what is the purpose of Vedas? The purpose of Vedas is to understand God, athato brahma-jijnasa [Vedanta-sūtra 1.1.1], the Vedanta-sūtra, first verse.

The human body should be utilized properly. It is a chance, otherwise, which glides down again into the circle. If we remain in the circle… Just like this morning I was explaining, there is a circle; it begins from here. So you are advancing, you are advancing, but if you remain in the same circle, that means advancing means again come to the same point.

So by evolutionary process, from aquatics to plant life, to plant life to insect life, from insect life to bird's life, from bird's life to animal life, from animal life to human life, from uncivilized life to civilized life-this is called progress. But if the progress is in the same line, then again you become animal, punaḥ punas carvita-carvananam, again repeating, chewing the chewed. Again you become aquatics, again you become trees, again you become insects. This is going on.

So this is a chance. Human form of life is a chance to get out of this circle of repetition of birth and death, jara-marana-moksaya. Jara-marana-moksaya [Bg 7.29]. This is human life: to get out of the circle. We are advancing-that's all right-advancing the same. The circle means advancing the same. Just like in the world, around the world, if you go eastward, eastward, eastward, again you come to the west. That is not advancing; that is simply taking labor. Advancing means how to get out of this repetition of birth and death. That is advancing.

Guest: I have a question.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Syamasundara: He has a question.

Guest: I have a question. It has been said by others anyway, and excuse me to mention other religions, but when one is becoming Christian, the aim, after all, you be going in heaven, or if he is bad he will be probably in hell. Now this is the aim or [indistinct] of getting to…, becoming a good Christian. What is the idea of Krsna's philosophy?

Syamasundara: [explaining] What is the idea of Krsna philosophy? Just as the Christians believe that you go to heaven or hell after this life, what is the idea in Krsna philosophy?

Prabhupada: Yes, the same philosophy. Krsna says, "Come to Me," we take it as heaven. But if you do not go to Krsna, then go to hell. The same thing I was explaining, that this human form of life is the point where you can go to hell or heaven. If you actually make progress, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg 4.9], Krsna says, that "After giving up this body you don't come again to this material existence, but you come to Me." Material existence means repetition of birth and death. So that is hell. And if you go back to home, back to Godhead, just like, then you'll get free from this repetition of birth and death.

Because the Christian idea-either you go to hell or to heaven-that is not bad; that is all right. It is your choice, either you remain in the cycle of birth and death or you get out of it, go back to Godhead. That we are preaching, our Krsna consciousness. So there is no difference. It may be in different words, but there is no difference. It is the fact that this human form of life is a chance to get out of this birth and death or going gliding down to hellish life. Now you may have a very nice body, but what is your next life? You do not know.

Therefore you have to know, "Now I have got this human form of body, I have got higher consciousness to understand, so I should understand what is my heaven and what is my hell-how I go to hell and how I go to heaven." So that statement is nice, the Christian, but is it said that either you go to hell…

Guest: Or heaven.

Prabhupada: Or heaven. That's nice.

Guest (2): Swamiji, there's another thing, according to him, or what I understand also, that they said that heaven is somewhere up and hell is somewhere down, like that.

Prabhupada: That is also…

Guest (2): But according to what you have said just now, we can take it also this way, isn't it, that suppose we, we just become with Krsna by our thinking our thoughts even at present, and the pleasures we get, can that be heaven?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): Because…

Prabhupada: Those who are in Krsna consciousness…

Guest (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: …they are not in this material world. Just like we are-we are not in Kenya; we are with Krsna.

Guest (2): Yeah.

Prabhupada: So therefore we are in Vrndavana.

Guest (2): We are in heaven, isn't it?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): And those who are suffering, those who haven't got ideas of Krsna, or say those who are having some sort of...

Prabhupada: Krsna, or God, is all-pervading, so as soon as you take Krsna consciousness, immediately you are in Krsna. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

Krsna says, mam ca vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena, "unadulterated bhakti-yoga." So one who is engaged in unadulterated bhakti-yoga-avyabhicarena means unadulterated, pure bhakti-yoga-such persons, mam ca avyabhicarena bhakti-yogena ya sevate. Sevate means offering service. So that person, gunan samatityaitan…

Samatitya means completely being liberated from these three modes of material nature-goodness, passion and ignorance. Then what is his position? Brahma-bhūyaya kalpate: he is in the transcendental platform of spiritual understanding.

As soon as one becomes in the transcendental platform of brahma, then his signs are that he is no longer lamenting and no longer hankering, and he is equal to everyone,

Such person is eligible to enter into devotional service, or after these stages, one is elevated to the devotional service. And what is the effect of devotional service?

"He understands Me by this devotional service," bhaktya. It doesn't say by knowledge, by speculation, by philosophical speculation, or by karma or by jnana or by yoga, but He says particularly bhaktya. Bhaktya mam abhijanati. What kind of understanding? Yavan yas casmi tattvataḥ, "as I am actually."

So if you want to understand God, what He is actually, then you have to understand Him through bhakti. Bhaktya mam abhijanati. And when he understands fully, tato mam tattvato jnatva, "after understanding Me fully in full knowledge," visate tad-anantaram, "he enters in the spiritual world." And as soon as you enter into the spiritual world, that is your normal life.

If you don't enter into the spiritual life, if you remain in the material life, then you will have to accept one body after another, go on, continuing. Bhūtva bhūtva praliyate: once he appears and again he disappears. And that is called samsara, or repetition of birth and death. So this Krsna consciousness movement is giving persons a real light, so that he can stop this repetition of birth and death and can go back to home, back to Godhead.

Syamasundara: You said that God cannot be approached except through bhakti.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: What does that mean, bhakti?

Prabhupada: Bhakti means devotion. There are nine kinds of bhakti:

This sravanam… Just like you are patiently hearing, this is bhakti. If you don't do anything-if you simply patiently hear and try to understand-your life is successful. You don't require any education. God has given you these ears, but you must hear from the real person. If you hear from others… Because without bhaktya, nobody can give you. Bhaktya mam abhijanati.

Unless you become bhakta, you cannot understand God. And if you do not understand God, then what is the use of hearing from you? Therefore so many nonsense are coming. They have no information of God; there is no benefit. But because these boys, these European boys and the American boys, are hearing from the right source, they are getting immediately the profit. Because God cannot be understood without bhakti.

So people hear from a pure bhakta, then you understand God. It doesn't matter what is your stage, but if you simply give patient hearing, sravanam, then kirtanam. And as soon as you… Just like these boys, they have heard; now they have come out for kirtanam, for glorifying the Lord. There he is the son of a businessman, and I told him that "Take the business of Mr. Sharma." He denied. [laughter] He denied. He has no more taste any more. Just see, a young boy, a businessman's son, an American boy, a rich man's son. Why? Bhakti paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42].

This is the test of bhakti, that he has no more any interest. Viraktir anyatra syat: immediately there will be detestful, "What is this nonsense?" Just like a hungry man: if you give him food he will eat, but when his hunger is satisfied he will say, "No more. No, I don't want." So bhakti is like that, true bhakti, bhaktya mam abhijanati. If you understand God then you say, "Oh, no more I am interested in the material..." This is going on.

Just like there is the case of Dhruva Maharaja. Dhruva Maharaja, he was very much eager to have the empire of his father, and he wanted, he wanted to please God to get this benediction. But when by his penance and austerities he saw God, he said, "Oh, I am fully satisfied. I don't want anything." Svamin krtartho'smi varam na yace 'O my Lord, because I was seeking an opulent material position, I was performing severe types of penance and austerity. Now I have gotten You, who are very difficult for the great demigods, saintly persons and kings to attain. I was searching after a piece of glass, but instead I have found a most valuable jewel. Therefore I am so satisfied that I do not wish to ask any benediction from You.

Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya 7.287.28]: "My dear Lord, I am completely satisfied."

Spiritual understanding means complete satisfaction. You come to a stage where you become completely satisfied. Na socati na kahksati: there is no more hankering, no more lamenting, no more this. But if you do not educate people to the spiritual understanding, this hankering and lamentation will continue.

I give you one example, very practical example: just like our Indian people came to Africa, that "We go to Africa; there is very good field of business." They are hankering. And now there are some inconveniences, they are lamenting. Their input ever improved, their hankering is fulfilled, but now they are lamenting, that "We have to leave because we are not citizen." Also they have riches, they have everything-so once hankering, and then lamenting, and more lamenting then hankering. [laughs] This is going on. Just like pendulum, tock-tock-tock-tock. [door opens]

Therefore Krsna says…

[aside:] Aiye.

…that "Don't remain in this platform of hankering and lamenting. Come to a platform where there will be no more hankering and lamenting."

So that is the business of human form of life: to stop this business of hankering and lamenting. The material life means the hankering and lamenting-once hankering and then lamenting. [pause] [aside to guest:] Wherefrom you are coming?

Devotee (2): We met this gentleman today…

Prabhupada: Oh.

Devotee (2): …at a real estate agent's office.

Prabhupada: I see. So you invited him.

Devotee (2): Yes.

Guest (3): First time [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Very good. You try to understand this Krsna consciousness philosophy. Lord Caitanya's mission was that in every part, in every corner of the world this philosophy must be spread. So we are trying to spread this philosophy. You take advantage of it; try to understand it and then take it. That is our mission.

Guest: Just I have got a question.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Guest: Taking into account that we are not these bodies but a soul, what is the… What do we understand or say when we dream? I might dream now about probably [indistinct]. What can we learn from that, as far as the soul is concerned?

Syamasundara: [explaining] Dreaming.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Syamasundara: What is dreaming? How does that relate to the soul?

Prabhupada: Dreaming is hallucination. You see? It is the business of the mind. The mind is creating some other body. Just like you are thinking that you have got a body flying in the sky. So even in dream you forget that you have got real body or another body, which is lying on the bed.

So it is a scientific fact-the mind creates by different desires, different types of body-that's a fact-and we forget the previous body. Just as dream, when you are dreaming, you forget that you are lying on the bed, you are active in a different way. So similarly, we had our past body, but we have forgotten it, as soon as… Death means forgetfulness. We forget our past, everything-that is death.

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupada: That is death. When dreaming we are also forgetting this body, but because it is not death we are coming back again this body, and in early in the morning we rise up, we catch up our duties: "Oh, we have to do this, I have to go there," and so on. But at night when dreaming you forget everything.

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupada: So this dreaming is another sample of death.

Guest: Sample of death?

Prabhupada: Death. And as you are dreaming at night, as this is night dream, this our material life is day dream. It is also dream. Because what we create in the dream, that does not exist. Is it not a fact?

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupada: It exists for a few minutes only. So this dream also exists for a few years, that's all. This is also dream; it is simply for few years. But the who is dreaming, that is spirit soul. So we have to understand and come to that spiritual platform. That is your real business-not dreaming, either night or day. That is not your business.

Just try to understand. As dreaming at night is for a few minutes-five minutes, ten minutes or half an hour utmost, then it breaks; everything is lost-similarly, this material life is also dreaming for years, say for fifty or sixty or say hundred years, any, everything, mrtyuḥ sarva-haras caham [Bg 10.34]. Mrtyuḥ means taking away everything what you have created by dreaming.

As soon as this body is changed, you forget everything, that I was Mr. Such-and-such, I was African, I was American, I was this or that, black or white-everything forgotten, finished. So this is also dreaming. And as in dreaming sometimes we see the tiger has attacked me at night, or a goat has come and is crashing me, and so many things, and crying-sometimes it happens. But as there is no goats, no tiger, still you dreaming that there is goat, there is tiger, similarly in this way, in this life also, we are thinking, "He is my enemy; he is my friend," this is also dreaming.

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupada: Nobody is your enemy; nobody is your friend. We have created by dreaming. So we have to get out of this dreaming at night and day and come to the Krsna platform. Then our life is successful.

Guest: I have got another question. You said that man has got a mind that is higher than animals; that is why a man tries to think more about God. Then why is it possible that man should be born, say, as a dog in the next life or something of the sort? Okay, so he has passed to this level of animal and has come to, I mean, the soul has come to the human society…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: …what is the purpose of him going back to the animal kingdom?

Prabhupada: Because if you…, if you live like animals, then you go to animals again. If you live like man, then you keep yourself man. And if you think like God, then you go to God. That is your business.

[aside to devotee:] Read the verse of this.

So if you simply live a life like animal, then you go to the animal kingdom. If you prepare your life like human being, you remain here in a human society. If you prepare your life godly, you go to God. What is the difficulty? So that is the best benefit: you can prepare your life godly and go back to Godhead. This is a chance only. Just like you were in school: if you educate yourself nicely, in future you become very happy; and if you spoil your time, don't take education, then you are a loafer.

So this human form of life is a chance-either you remain as human society or you go back to Godhead or you go back to animals. That is your business. urdhvam gacchanti sattva-stha [Bg 14.18]: they are elevated who are in the modes of goodness. Madhye tisthanti rajasaḥ: those who are in the modes of passion, they remain here. Jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha, adho gacchanti tamasaḥ: and those who make their character jaghanya, most abominable, they go to the animals. What is the difficulty to understand?

It is not stereotype. The soul is described in the Vedic literature as sarva-ga: he can go anywhere. He can go anywhere. Anywhere means he can go up, he can go down, or he can remain as he is, according to his work. Just like even in this life I can become illiterate, I can educate…, I can become educated, if I try for that. The chance is there.

The government is giving you a chance to everyone, but according to his own desires one is going to the prison house, one is becoming the high court judge. As it is possible in this life, similarly next life also, the same thing. You can elevate yourself to godly position, and you can stay in position what you are, and you can degrade yourself.

Guest: I have got another question. If it is possible for the human soul to remain in the body of an animal, does that mean that the souls are all the same, whether it is created as life in an animal body or in a human being body? Does it mean the souls are the same?

Syamasundara: All souls are the same?

Prabhupada: Yes. All souls are the same. Just like you are soul-you are in a black body; he is a soul, he is in a white body; I am Indian, I am in a different body; but the soul is the same. It is called dress: vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg 2.22]. The body is dress. Because you are in white shirt and because he is in blue jersey, it does not mean you are different. You are the same. Similarly, we may have different bodies-a tiger may have different body and the godly man, the saintly man, may have different body-but the soul is the same.

Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, panḍitaḥ sama-darsinaḥ.

Vidya-vinaya-sampanne brahmana. According to Vedic civilization the brahmana is highly learned, vidya-vinaya, and very gentle. He is considered to be the highest in the human society, the brahmana, vidya-vinaya-sampanne. If we fall[?], he does not make any distinction.

That is panḍita. That is real learned man.

Guest: I have got another question.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Guest: In the material form we have got a big man, small man, big animals and small animals [indistinct]...

Prabhupada: Yes, the spiritual form, there is no such thing.

Guest: There's no big soul and small souls?

Syamasundara: No big soul, no small soul-all the same size?

Prabhupada: Yes, the big soul there is: big soul is God.

Guest: And apart from God?

Prabhupada: And small soul we are. Both of them, we are souls. The big soul is God. Just like you and me, we are small souls, so we are dominating over this small body, but God, being big soul, He is dominating over everyone. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi, sarva-ksetresu bharata [Bg 13.3].

Ksetra-jna. Ksetra-jna means the body, one who knows the body. Just like I, I am soul; I know that this is my hand, this is my leg. This is called ksetra-jna. Ksetra means this body, and jna means one who knows. So I know everything of my body-not everything practically, but I know when I feel pain or pleasure I can know. But I cannot know what is your pain and pleasure. Therefore you are the master of your body, I am the master of my body. But Krsna says,

"But I am also ksetra-jnam. I am also present in every body." That is Supersoul, or big soul. So just like there are two souls: big soul and a small soul. The small souls we are, and big soul is God. Big means all-pervading. God knows what you are thinking, what you are feeling; but I cannot know what you're thinking, what you are feeling. Therefore I am small soul and God is the big soul. Just like I may be proprietor of this house, and you may be proprietor of that house, but the state is proprietor of everything-so there is big proprietor, the king. Similarly we are soul, God is soul, nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13]. Cetana means living; nitya means eternal. We are all living and eternal. God is also living and eternal, but eko bahūnam yo vidadhati kaman, but that one maintains all the small.

So God has provided food for everyone, all living entities. There are hundreds and thousands of living entities other than human beings. They have no business, they have no profession, but they have no economic problem. You may have never seen that a bird has died fasting or without food, or elephant has died without food. The elephant eats at a time hundred pounds, but he has got eating arrangement by God. The ant is eating only one grain, and it has got also arrangement.

So eko bahūnam yo vidadhati kaman: that one God, big soul, He is maintaining all living entities. These are the Vedic injunction. And actually we are being maintained by God. He is supplying rain. From rain there is grain, and you are eating grain-therefore you are living.

Guest: I have got another question.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Guest: If I am not wrong, I think I am most like a chimpanzee and gorillas. They are considered as the…

Prabhupada: They are also supplied food by God. Because I have heard that here in Africa there are gorillas, and where they live there is a kind of tree, and the fruits of that tree is harder than the, I mean to say, iron bullet. [laughter] Yes. The fruits of that tree, the nut, so hard that you cannot break it by hammering. And the gorillas take it, and they chew it, "Very nice!" [laughter] So who has supplied these nuts there where gorillas live? Perhaps you know it, the gorillas in your country, and how in the book[?] that they are supplied with these fruits. Who is supplying the fruits?

Guest: I don't know.

Prabhupada: That is God. Eko bahūnam yo vidadhati kaman [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13]. Kaman means all things I want. So Krsna is supplying, God is supplying. We require sufficient water, so there are oceans, there are seas, stocked, and the water is salty so that it may not decompose. And the sun is engaged to evaporate the water and make it cloud and distribute all over the globe. And it is stored on the mountain, just like tank, and it is coming down like pipe, rivers. Every element is there. Īsavasyam idam sarvam :

everything is being controlled by God.

Because the arrangement is complete, you see. It requires excessive amount of water. So just see: therefore the water portion is three fourths. Immense water supply, immense air supply, immense light supply, immense food supply-simply you are mismanaging. The birds, bees, animals, they never feel any scarcity of food. That day I was showing the bird was dancing, the monkey-they are jumping from one tree to another, enough food. They have no problems.

Brahmananda: Except for the monkey-eating birds. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Eh? Therefore that problem must be there; otherwise how you will understand that this is a miserable place? However you may be very expert in making adjustments to your food supply and everything is there, still there will be trouble. That is called samsara-davana. You cannot be happy here. Whatever you make arrangements you will feel unhappy, unless you come to your senses. This is God.

Guest: I have got another question. What is the difference between a wisdom and knowledge, say as far as the spiritual understanding is concerned?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Syamasundara: What is the difference between what?

Guest: Difference between wisdom…

Guest (3): Wisdom and...

Guest: …knowledge, as far as the spiritual understanding is concerned?

Syamasundara: What is the difference between wisdom and knowledge?

Prabhupada: Wisdom is knowledge. There is no difference.

Guest: And which...

Prabhupada: Knowledge is wisdom; wisdom is knowledge. There is no difference.

Guest: Which comes first?

Prabhupada: Which comes first? It is already existing. Because you are living, there is knowledge. Wisdom you can say is material knowledge, that's all.

Guest: Hmm.

Prabhupada: But wisdom is also knowledge. Just like after experiencing much experience you become very wise. So wisdom you can say is material knowledge. So this is wisdom: to understand that "I am spirit soul. I am part and parcel of God; therefore my duty is to surrender unto God. He is big soul, I am small soul-He is providing me; therefore it is my duty to take shelter of Him." This is wisdom.

"After many, many births of cultivating knowledge, when one actually becomes wise, He surrenders unto Me."

To understand God is everything-that kind of great soul is very rare. So?

Brahmananda: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: This will be a little bit outside our discussion. I understand that somewhere in the Himalayan mountains in India, there is a valley where the souls of the saints normally meet.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Brahmananda: He says that somewhere in the Himalayan mountains there is a valley where the saints meet.

Guest: The souls of the…

Devotee (2): The souls…

Guest: …the martyrs and the saints…

Prabhupada: No saintly person will eat meat.

Devotee (2): No, no. Where they will meet; they will congregate together. The souls of the saintly persons will congregate. You understand-it is a place in the Himalayas where the souls of the saintly persons congregate.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is possible.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That can be possible by the Himalayas. Here it can be possible if you mix together in our Krsna consciousness. You are all good souls-then it would be possible. A saintly person does not mean that he has got something extraordinary. That extraordinary is this wisdom to understand God. That is saintly person. Sa mahatma, vasudevaḥ sarvam iti: one who knows that God is everything, God is the original cause of everything, he is saintly person.

Syamasundara: [aside:] This way.

Prabhupada: He is sa-mahatma. Everything. And what is the business of mahatma?

Mahatma means he is under the spiritual nature, daivim prakrtim asritaḥ. And what is the symptom? Bhajanty ananya: he has no more business except serving Krsna. He does not want anything more. Mahatmanas tu mam partha, daivim prakrtim asritaḥ bhajanty. To keep oneself under the protection of spiritual nature means he becomes liberated[?]; he has no other aim. Mahatmanas tu mam partha, daivim prakrtim asritaḥ.

Guest: I have got another question. This is, or is not so… I read in a certain book that a…, say first of all taking into consideration that life [indistinct] in other planets apart from theirs… [indistinct] I read in a certain book that these people, they normally visit earth [indistinct]. Whether it is true or not I don't know, but I have heard it. [indistinct]. [break]

Prabhupada: ...residents of those, that planet, they can fly, and they can go from one planet to another. Just like siddha-loka. By mystic perfection in yoga you can do that also. Anima, laghima siddhi-you become light.

Guest: Now if this, erm, Lord Krsna, is He above, you know, the other idols, you worship them, the cows? Is He above them?

Syamasundara: Is Lord Krsna above all other forms of God?

Prabhupada: Yes. He is the Supreme God.

Guest: [indistinct] there is, erm, it would appear that there is another God above Krsna.

Prabhupada: Then He's not supreme. If He is supreme, there cannot be any other God superior to Him.

Guest: In India there are so many gods worshiped…

Prabhupada: Not many. God is one.

Guest: Some people worship them.

Prabhupada: God means… Of course, God, God means controller. The controller, everyone offers to the controller, some sort of controller. Just like Mr. Patel, he is controlling his business; he has got many men working under him. You may be an official; so many men may be working under you. I am also a human being, so many of my disciples they are working under me. So if God means controller, then everyone is controller, then everyone is God.

But the thing is that we are not supreme controller. I am controlling my disciples, but if your government says that "You can't preach here. You go away," I will go. I cannot deny it. Therefore although I am controller, I am not supreme controller. Similarly, Mr. Patel may be controller in his business-hundreds of men working under him-but he's not [indistinct]. Anyone who finds that he is controller, but he is controlled by somebody else. You take anyone-even your president-he is also controlled by somebody.

So nobody is supreme controller. When it comes to a point who is not controlled by anyone, that is God. That is called supreme controller. He is controlling everybody, but He is not controlled by anyone. There's a test: if somebody comes before you and he says that "I am God," you test him, "Whether you are not controlled by anyone. If you are controlled by somebody else, then you are not God." But people do not know what is the nature of God. This is the simple nature.

If some rascal comes, that "I am God," so test him, that "Whether you are not controlled by anyone, then you are God; otherwise rascal." That is going on. Every day there is coming out a God. What kind of God he is? We don't accept such rascal as God. God is Krsna, because He is not controlled by anybody. That is God. Krsna, when He was present, He was never controlled by anyone, but He controlled everyone. That is God.

mattaḥ parataram nanyat
kincid asti dhananjaya
[Bg 7.7]

Guest: So, erm, this word...

Prabhupada: God is the supreme controller. That is the small definition.

Guest: So Krsna means God.

Prabhupada: Krsna means all-attractive. He is supreme controller.

Guest: All-attractive [indistinct] coming from God…

Devotee (2): Krsna is God.

Guest: God.

Guest (2): [indistinct] Krsna is another name of God.

Prabhupada: You try to [indistinct], another name of Krsna, krsna means black.

Guest: Black?

Prabhupada: Black, yes. As you are black, similarly Krsna is also black, but that does not mean any black man is God.

Guest (2): Swamiji, can some light be thrown on this thinking? Most of the people over here, they think that when Indians are showing their respect to the cows, some think that they, when they go to the temple, the cows idols are there, they throw milk and all this so many things on there, people think that we are really worshiping them.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest (2): So how far the ISKCON thinking is that when we pray to the gorakhpur idols, some [indistinct], cow worship...

Prabhupada: Because therefore you have to learn from your spiritual master. You cannot speculate. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12].

Just like you are asking me, you maybe have to learn all these things from your spiritual master. Vedic civilization, those who are following Vedic civilization, they worship cows. That is necessary. The cow produces miracle food, milk. So if you want to have good brain, then you have to take milk.

Guest (2): Good brain?

Prabhupada: If you don't want to remain dull, then you have to take milk.

Guest (2): Milk.

Prabhupada: Therefore cow protection is necessary. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam, brahmana-karma svabhava-jam…, er, vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg 18.44]. Those who are mercantile people, their business, according to Vedic…, krsi-go, agriculture. They should be engaged in agriculture and go-raksya, and protection of the cows. Krsi-go-raksya and vanijyam, and trade. That is three kinds of occupation.

So go-raksya is the duty of the mercantile people, because without milk and grains, how you can live very decently? Therefore cows'…, cow protection, go-raksya, not tiger-raksya. That is not mentioned. Go-raksya. There are many other animals-why they are particular about go, cows? That is significant. Because unless we have got sufficient milk supply, you cannot have nourishing food and you cannot develop good brain. Therefore it is necessary.

Guest (2): Most essential; an essential animal. Therefore I…, more respect with me.

Prabhupada: In the prayers of Krsna it is said, namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya [Visnu Purana 1.19.65]. Why especially the cow's name is there? When Krsna, when He was present on this planet, He remained as a cowherds boy in His childhood. He gave protection to the cows. So it is the essential part of civilization.

Guest: He protect the…, all animals?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Guest: He protected all animals.

Brahmananda: Are you asking did He protect all animals? The question is did He protect all animals, or just cows?

Prabhupada: Yes, everyone. Jagaddhitaya.

Guest: All the…

Prabhupada: All the animals, the whole world. But first preferences is to the cows and the brahmanas. Because without brahminical culture and sufficient supply of milk, that is not human civilization.

Guest: In worshiping cows, do you think that there is nothing wrong about it, because Lord Krsna does not consider it wrong to worship the cow?

Devotee (2): Krsna does not consider it wrong to worship the cow?

Prabhupada: No, He personally worshiped cow. He showed the example.

Guest (2): He used to take them for grazing, even.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: So the actual, the actual doctrine is that you will not kill a cow?

Devotee (2): The question was would we kill a cow?

Guest: Yes.

Devotee (2): Would we kill a cow?

Prabhupada: Who?

Devotee (2): Would we?

Prabhupada: "We" means?

Guest: Krsna followers.

Devotee (2): Would the devotees of Krsna kill a cow?

Prabhupada: Who? No devotees of Krsna would kill cow.

Devotee (2): A devotee of Krsna would not kill a cow.

Prabhupada: No, they would kill nobody. Krsna's devotee would not kill even an ant, what to speak of cow. Cow is most important.

Guest: Then would it be possible for [indistinct] Krsna doctrine [indistinct] influence the government not to kill people for their mistakes, but to leave them to God, or leave them to Krsna?

Prabhupada: What was that?

Guest: Could you...

Devotee (2): Would it be possible to influence the government…

Guest: Yeah.

Devotee (2): …not to kill people for their mistakes, but to leave it to Krsna, to leave it to God, to punish those?

Prabhupada: Well, at the present moment, no government is perfect. But no government is allowed to kill a cow. That's a fact. Why the government kills cows?

Guest (2): If the people accept the proposal [indistinct] and if they are Krsna conscious, and if...

Prabhupada: They won't kill a cow.

Guest: They won't kill.

Guest (2): There is no automatically [indistinct].

Prabhupada: We want that you become all Krsna conscious and stop this slaughterhouse.

Guest: You think that, he asked, not kill a cow, is it accepted everywhere in India?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Devotee (2): Is it accepted everywhere in India?

Prabhupada: India is also killing cow, because they have degraded.

Brahmananda: Cow killing is going on also in India.

Guest (2): No, it is not so much...

Prabhupada: No, they're making business, government.

Guest: Hmm, by killing cows? Please tell me [indistinct].

Devotee (3): [whispers] Take prasadam.

Guest: For their milk, yeah?

Prabhupada: In India there was government, when Maharaja Pariksit was going on his tour, he saw that one man was attempting to kill a cow. He immediately took his sword: "Who are you? You are trying, attempting to kill a cow in my kingdom." That was by cow protection. [aside:] I am not going to. Keep it there and if I want, I require…

Devotee (2): Keep it in the room.

Woman devotee: Yes, all right.

Prabhupada: Even we get history during Muhammadan rule there was no slaughterhouse. There was no slaughterhouse. The Muhammadans ruled over India for eight hundred years, but there was not a single slaughterhouse. The slaughterhouse was introduced by the British government.

Guest: In India?

Prabhupada: In India. The Muhammadans sometimes used to kill cow, but that was in the masjid during their Bakrid ceremony. Not daily. That also very secretly. The Muhammadans king, er, emperor, he knew that it would hurt the Hindu sentiment. He did not allow publicly. It was the creation of the British government to encourage, and our leaders, they were made in London, and they advocated, "Yes. Whatever is introduced by Britishers is all right." [laughter]

Guest: I would like to ask another question. The Muhammadans [indistinct].

Devotee (2): He says that other religions have their books. Which book does Krsna have?

Syamasundara: Ah, he thinks that Krsna dreamed of this religion, or it came to Him.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Guest (2): He says that the Muhammadans are having a book like...

Guest (4): The Koran was founded by the Bible.

Prabhupada: Oh!

Guest: It was written from the Bible. What book… What is the foundation of Krsna religion…

Prabhupada: What is that?

Guest (2): He says that Muhammadans, they translated the Bible and then they made the Koran as their holy book, from where they take their all the source of their knowledge and all these things, inspiration. Now the people, the Krsna conscious people, from what book do they get their source of inspiration from, which book or...

Prabhupada: Wherefrom the Bible got their inspiration? First of all let me know. As you say that the Muhammadan Koran was taken from Bible. Is it not? Anyway, you say. So wherefrom the Bible was taken?

Guest (2): From where is the Bible?

Guest: The Bible as we read was founded by prophets.

Prabhupada: Huh? As the Koran has a history, the Bible has a history also.

Guest: So in [indistinct].

Prabhupada: What is that history? What is that history? Wherefrom the Bible was inspired?

Guest: [indistinct] the disciples, the disciples [indistinct] performance of God. [indistinct] different times. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: So similarly, the Koran has been taken from Bible, and the Bible is from the disciples of God…

Guest: Yeah.

Prabhupada: …then what is the wrong in the Koran?

Guest: No, we wanted to know whether there was [indistinct]. How was this thing founded? Where did He get His things from?

Prabhupada: Religion… The original religion is founded by God.

Guest: But what is the root of it?

Prabhupada: God is the root of it, because God's parts and parcels have come to the material world to enjoy. So God has given that "All right, you have come here to enjoy. You enjoy in this way, then you will in due course of time, you will again come back to Me."

Guest: So God spoke to what religion?

Prabhupada: Eh? What? Whom He spoke, that is different thing.

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: It is the principle.

Syamasundara: He says, did God speak through Lord Krsna?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest: [indistinct]

Syamasundara: No, no. Speak through Lord Krsna.

Prabhupada: Lord Krsna is God himself. Not through, but He is God.

Guest: [indistinct] God.

Devotee (2): No, He is God.

Guest: Oh, He's God, God Himself.

Prabhupada: That's it.

Guest: [indistinct]

Devotee (2): [indistinct]

Guest (2): Krsna means all-attractive. God.

Guest: It means that anything that is blessed, anything that is attractive, that is our own God. [indistinct] then Krsna has got thousands of ladies [indistinct].

Guest (2): Something good or something nice.

Brahmananda: Srila Prabhupada has not said that. Yes.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Brahmananda: The question was that it was said that God has many names; He is unlimited. So the question was, well, does it mean that one can just have any name, and that becomes a name of God? One can make up any name?

Prabhupada: "Any name" means must have some meaning.

Guest: [indistinct] say if there's something very good. Say you make a watch, which is...

Prabhupada: Not any name is God, but God has many names. Try to understand this.

Guest: Because according to…

Prabhupada: God is unlimited, so He has got unlimited names. But not that any name is God.

Guest (4): That is true.

Prabhupada: Try to understand this.

Guest (2): Just like sun…

Prabhupada: Eh?

Guest (2): Say sun, sun, it was in our language we call it sūrya. Somebody might be calling it something else, but it is the same thing, how one calls.

Prabhupada: Either you call sun, or sūrya, the object is the same.

Guest (2): The object is the same.

Prabhupada: Similarly, any name which clarifies God, that is God's name. There is Krsna, "all-attractive." If this "all-attractive" name is applicable to God, then it is God's name. Also, krsna means "black"; that is another meaning. But if God is not all-attractive, then how He can be God?

Guest: [indistinct] which is attractive, to meet God, love God…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: …if you give Him a name which is attractive?

Prabhupada: It is not attractive, but any...

Guest: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: God.

Guest: [indistinct] The sunshine is not enough. Is there a difference between attractiveness and holiness?

Brahmananda: Is there a difference between attractiveness and holiness?

Prabhupada: Well, unless one is holy, how he can be all-attractive? Unholy, how he can be attractive?

Guest: I don't know.

Prabhupada: Is a rogue attractive?

Guest: Hmm?

Prabhupada: Is a thief attractive?

Guest: Something is there, but it won't last.

Devotee (2): [indistinct] A thief is attractive by his personality, but not by his heart.

Guest (2): So he is not fully attractive.

Prabhupada: Hmm. But still, you cannot worship a thief.

Guest: No, I don't think I can do it.

Prabhupada: A thief may be attractive to a certain person, but he is not all-attractive. One who is thief, he can appreciate a big thief. [laughter] That is another thief. But a thief is not all-attractive. Then if a thief… If somebody says, "One thief is coming to your home at night," oh, he becomes [indistinct] to your house.

Devotee (3): But Krsna can become a thief and be attractive. [laughter]

Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is another thing.

Guest (2): [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Krsna... Krsna is so qualified. Just like the moon. There are spots in the moon-nobody considers about the spots. Everyone takes moon, "Oh, here is moon." Nobody considers. Eko 'si dosaya, guni sanga parte nirvadyati[?]. Krsna has no fault. Even we take it as fault, one who has got many qualities, a little fault even there is, it is not taken account of. Tejiyasam na dosaya [SB 10.33.29]. Just like the sun: the sun is absorbing water from seas and oceans, and he is also absorbing water from your urine. So nobody is taking account, "Oh, sun is taking water from the urinal." [laughter] Immediately[?] it can purify. By sun's touch the urine becomes pure. Even there is something faulty, by Krsna's touch it becomes purified. That is Krsna. Therefore He is all-attractive.

The same example: the sun is absorbing water from the urinal. Is sun polluted? Can you say, "Oh, the sun has taken water from urine, so it has become polluted"? Can you say that? Tejiyasam na dosaya. Therefore anyone who is very powerful, he has no fault. Even if you find some fault in him, there is no fault actually. But even if you think that it is fault, it is not taken. Sūrya, by absorbing urine, it is making purified that place. But if you say, "Oh, the sun is evaporating urine; it has become polluted," that is your shortness of understanding. That sūrya is purifying that place, very, very [indistinct].

Guest: How do they appear? [indistinct] came into this world?

Brahmananda: How long ago did Krsna come into this world?

Prabhupada: Five thousand years.

Guest: Five hundred years.

Prabhupada: Five thousand.

Guest: Five thousand years.

Prabhupada: Five thousands of years.

Guest: So two thousand years...

Prabhupada: Three thousand B.C.

Guest: Three thousand B.C. Now if [indistinct] Lord Krsna attending the school or any society before He became a God?

Brahmananda: Did Krsna attend any school or any society before He became a God?

Prabhupada: No.

Guest: He was born.

Prabhupada: He was God from His childhood, from His babyhood.

Guest: He was born.

Prabhupada: Since He was born.

Guest: Like Jesus?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: He is like Jesus?

Prabhupada: But I don't think Jesus was Christ from the very beginning. He was given the title when he was perfect.

Guest: Hmm?

Prabhupada: He was given the title of Christ when he was perfect.

Guest: When he was baptized.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Brahmananda: When he was baptized?

Prabhupada: Well, I don't know much about Jesus Christ.

Guest: But how it is that Lord Krsna exists now?

Prabhupada: Now first of all we are speaking of the philosophy of God. When you understand the philosophy of God, then you can question.

Guest: [indistinct] [break] [end]