Room Conversation – November 5, 1973, Delhi

731105R2-DELHI [34:24 Minutes]

What is the use of this sahkirtana?

Prabhupada: Abodha-jataḥ. Sadah. That the, the bodily, external duty, done exactly to the point, but did not take to Krsna consciousness, abodha-jataḥ. Just like people say, "What is the use of this sahkirtana? We are doing our duty. We are living very honestly." For such person it is impossible. You may live very honestly-you may do your duty very honestly-in spite of all these things, because you are not taking to Krsna consciousness, you are simply being defeated. And another of these things they make.

He does not know what is his position, atma-tattvam. So without this knowledge, whatever he is doing is for defeat. Without this human form of life to conquer over birth and death… And that is only possible, harim vina na mrtim taranti. Without Krsna consciousness, nobody can conquer over birth and death. That is not possible. So he could not conquer over birth and death; he made some temporary arrangement: good car, good house, good wife, and so many things, whatever. Whatever they are doing, even the cats and dogs are doing. That he does not know. Abodha-jataḥ. He does not know how the transmigration of the soul is taking place, what he is going to be next life. These things, he does not know. So therefore, abodha-jataḥ. From birth he is a rascal, fool. He did not enlighten to Krsna consciousness or by accepting Krsna's instruction-then he is defeated.

That is the whole world is going on. They are thinking like that: this busy-ness, very busy always, going this side, that side, that side. It is exactly like the dogs are doing: jump this side, this side [claps hands]. That is not very important business-the dog jumping from this side to that side, and catching the ball or other... [laughing] So it is just like that activity. Monkey, whenever they stop, they do something, it

[makes growling sound] [laughter].

These are activities like that. We see that, that there is no difference. It is the activities of the monkeys and donkeys, making this so-called busy man. We see. [indistinct] But no, he is defeated; he does not know what is the aim of life.

Therefore Prabhodananda Sarasvati said, vidhi-mahendradis ca kitayate [Caitanya-candramrta 5]. As the insect does not know what is the aim of life, jumping over the fire [makes sound demonstration]... Insect. Kita. So all these karmis, they are kita. Not, not only ordinary man; big [indistinct]. Even busy like Brahma or Mahendra, the king of heaven. They are all karma-bandhanu. Yas tv indragopam athavendram aho sva-karma-bandhanurūpa. Karma-bandhana. That whatever his karma may be, he has done some pious activities, and one has become Brahma or Indra. And next life, he may be Brahma. There is history that once Indra became hog. So next life, even Indra can become hog. Karma-bandhana.

Bandhanurūpa-phala, atanoti. So beginning from the insect known as indra, indragopa, and up to that Indra. Yas tv indragopam athavendram. Athavendram. Yas tv indragopam athavendram aho sva-karma. Even he may be very [indistinct], but he is bound up by his own karma.

Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs 5.54]. But those who have taken to Krsna consciousness, their effects of karma is diminished. As Krsna says, [indistinct], that he has no result. He will be saved. Others will have to suffer or enjoy. And one who surrenders, he is already karma-phala; he is squared up, finished. If he does not give himself again to karma, simply yajnate karma, no other karma, then he is immune. So if you are already engaged in Krsna's work, you are immune. And as soon as you work for any personal benefit-karma-bandhana. That's all.

Very good example: a soldier. So long as he is soldier, fighting, killing many men-his business is killing-he is…, he is offered full benefit. And as soon as for his own account he kills one man, he is hanged. He cannot say, "Oh, I have…, I have killed so many men, and I was awarded the gold medal. Now I have killed only one man, why you are hanging me?" No, no. Then "You will be hanged, because you have done for your own account. That was government's account, king's account." A good example. Same man who has fought in the battle and killed many men, as many, as largest number of men he kills, he becomes famous, hero, given medal. The same hero, as soon as he kills one man for his personal sense gratification, he is hanged.

These are the example, practical. In politics they accept so many forbidden things, but they are not punished. Sometimes they steal, go to the enemy's house, wife, and stealing documents. These are all criminal, but he is rewarded. Yajnanati karmanatro[?]. Better for, even if you do something sinful, better it was for Krsna's work[?]. That is also taken as credit. Otherwise it is discredit. Therefore intelligent men, they, "I will have to work so hard to get some credit, why not do it for Krsna, as for my credit?" That is intelligent.

This is a verse from Caitanya-caritamrta. [indistinct] Find out kamadinam. Find out.

Brahmananda: But no one informed Gladstone.

Prabhupada: Hah?

Brahmananda: We were speaking of Gladstone, the English diplomat.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Brahmananda: No one informed him of this. He only had maya's encouragement, to encourage him, "Do this; do this," and not reap the benefit.

Prabhupada: Yes. This…, this is, the politician have never given. This is the first time they have given. The Western countries, they did not know. Krsna is [indistinct], they did not know.

Brahmananda: So we…, we must inform the leaders and the scientists.

Prabhupada: Yes. A little social, moral system, that was neglected. Moral system: "Thou shall not covet another's wife. Thou shall not kill," they never obey these things. They simply went to chance, that's all. Therefore [indistinct]. Now they are asking, "What you have done?" That "What you have done actually? You have simply cheated yourself." It's in Bhagavata?

Pradyumna: It's from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu.

Prabhupada: Oh. Read it.

Pradyumna:

Prabhupada: Rūpa Gosvami Maharaja verse has spoken. Just see what is the verse.

Pradyumna: It does not mention. It doesn't mention at the beginning. It just begins… It just has om vaiyai upati sabda.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pradyumna: It just has om vaiyai upati sabda. It does not mention where it comes from. It says, saranagater prarthana tathahi Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 3.2.35.

Prabhupada: Then it is from Rūpa Gosvami.

Brahmananda: But how we can convince them that they will not reap the benefit? They're working so hard, and then they will die and not reap the benefit. If I just say that, or we say it, they will not believe, that...

Prabhupada: No, no...

Brahmananda: ...we are talking abstraction.

Prabhupada: ...not that they will not reap the benefit. They will reap the benefit.

Brahmananda: If they work for Krsna.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Brahmananda: If they work for Krsna.

Prabhupada: No, he will not do that. But that is karma. They derive the benefit by accepting another body. So accept as… Another body is failure. That is the failure of his life. Human life is meant for tyaktva deham punar janma [Bg 4.9].

Brahmananda: I see.

Prabhupada: This is the success. That I was speaking...

Brahmananda: I see.

Prabhupada: ...last night. That they don't know what is siddhi.

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: This is siddhi: to stop this process of birth and death. But these karmis will not get that. Therefore it is difficult. Suppose I give you in charity something. So I will get it four times, or say a hundred times. I give you a hundred rupees for some good cause. So I will get one thousand, with compound interest. But to get that money, I will have to enter the womb of my mother again. So is that very good sense? To get the compound interest of one hundred rupees into one thousand rupees, I will have to take again birth. Is that good intelligence? The karmis have to accept another body. That is their defeat. Human life was meant for stopping this birth and death, and the karmis will not get that. Whatever he is doing for future gain, that he will get; but he will not be able to stop this birth and death. Therefore they are defeated.

[indistinct Bengali]. There, there is a Bengali… In India, that, that if you find out somebody, or you are going somewhere, some good yatra, but if you find out somebody in, in a [indistinct] whose nose is cut off, then you cannot. It is all inauspicious. So one enemy, or another person, he understood that "My enemy tomorrow will go to such-and-such place for making some money." So he wanted to stop his journey, and cut your own nose. [laughter] "Now he cannot go." [indistinct Bengali] He stopped his yatra, but cut his own nose. It is like that. He will get some profit, from karmi point of view. He will take a birth, either Brahma's son or Indra's son or king's son, but he will again have to enter into the wife of Brahma or Indra, and enter again here, or take birth in this place. Then again another span of life for, say, millions of years. In this millions of years he commits so many sinful activities, and again become a cat and dog.

So your life, your entanglement, continues. If you finish this business of getting another birth, and go back to home, back to Godhead, that you lost, and you wanted to enjoy crores of rupees by becoming Birla's son-is that very good intelligence? Then, "No, I shall become Birla's son; I shall become Indra's son." And what he will do? He has become…, will be entangled. Birla's son, that is means the perfection of life? No. Birla's son, if you misunderstand your life, without any guidance, "Oh, I have got so much money; let me enjoy wine and woman. What is this nonsense Krsna consciousness?" then he will become next time a hog, a dog. All opportunity is lost. They do not know the science. Therefore abodha-jataḥ, all rascals. They are not becoming victorious; they are being defeated, abodha-jataḥ. [break]

Devotee (3): Is it very huge, or just...?

Prabhupada: Not very huge. Size of a…, say more than a yard.

Devotee (3): More than a yard.

Prabhupada: Yes. I remember distinctly.

Devotee (3): But bigger than a star?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee (3): Bigger than a star?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Devotee (3): Much bigger.

Prabhupada: And there was light, just like moonlight.

Devotee (3): Oh, really?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (3): Broadcasting.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee (3): Oh.

Prabhupada: Not exactly...

Devotee (3): Oh.

Prabhupada: ...moonlight, but there was light. And if you stay for an hour and so, they'll disappear. Just like other birds[?] appear and disappear. How many things are there in the sky, what do they know? They cannot go even to the moon planet.

[break] What is that?

Brahmananda: Tape recorder.

Prabhupada: That, uh, that was being played now?

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is nice?

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: Play it. [break]

Pradyumna: [reading] dehadhir na sarathya…

Prabhupada: dehadhih na sarathya. Go on.

Pradyumna: ksyanayam anartha ity asankhya artha paravabhode hari na svarupa vibhavo ajnana ktras tapa tapati tattvatah hetu...

Prabhupada: Because the, the conception of all these men, which is not. Therefore abodha-jataḥ. They don't understand that "I am not the body." They do not even get this body of a Birla's son or Rockefeller's son. But I am not this body. So I remain in ignorance. And bodily concept of life, whatever you do, there is karma. So I remain in ignorance. Even though I get the body of a son of Rockefeller or Birla-you can get-so what is the benefit? I'll remain in ignorance. I do not know what is my position, what is my duty. Therefore he is defeated. And so long I shall remain in ignorance, I will have to accept karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg 3.9], sarira-bandhanaḥ, entanglement. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura.

Pradyumna: [reading] tarhi punyam kartavyam iti cen na.

Prabhupada: The result: that has no pious activity. No. That is nonsense.

Pradyumna: na tasyapi samsara hetaktvena klesa ekatvam.

Prabhupada: Yes. Even if you get a Birla son's body or king's body, that threefold miseries of material life you have to accept, as we have mentioned. Then?

Pradyumna: tasmad punya papayor nirasa tava vijnana.

Prabhupada: Don't do pious or impious. Simply be engaged in Krsna's service. That is expressed by [indistinct]. Subhasubha karma sa bhakti [Cc Adi 1.94]. Can you find? In Caitanya-caritamrta. Subhasubha karma. Whatever books we are giving, you must read, so you can... We have given Sanskrit also. Simply read, and you will be sane man.

Pradyumna: It's a quote from Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: No, subhasubha karma sa bhakti.

Pradyumna: Oh. In the Sanskrit,

Prabhupada: The big lawyers, they have big law books, [indistinct] to give reference.

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: ...[indistinct]. They take from the library all the books and give them [indistinct].

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: [indistinct]. There was one big lawyer [indistinct]. So, [indistinct]. Yes [indistinct], just to teach him law. [indistinct]? Yes [indistinct]. "Yes, my lord. Just to teach him law." So he criticized him, that he has [indistinct].

Brahmananda: That means, then, "If you go against me in that case, that you don't know law."

Prabhupada: Yes. Subhasubha karma sa bhakti [indistinct]. [Cc Adi 1.94]

Pradyumna: Nothing beginning with subhasubha.

Prabhupada: Hmm. [break] ...kintu ca bhakti-bhajam. [Bs 5.54] Read that commentary [indistinct].

[break] [reading] kari punya kartavyam iti cen na tasyapi samsara hetaktvena klesa hetakta tasmad punya papayor virasatam jnanam eva samvarsana..., samvarsaniyam eva ity aha parabhava karma paratantra tad eva jivasya bandhana. Because according to your karma, you are becoming entangled, and that is your material existence. That is your material existence.

Jivasya bandhana sah, sah ajnana krta sthavad eva lampati. Ajnana: he does not know. He, he does not know that "I am not this body," so what is the use of getting a better body? This is our [indistinct]. If you are not this body-suppose you are suffering from some disease, you are uncomfortable-if I say, "All right, let me change your dress," what is the use? [laughing] You are suffering. I am suffering from fever, and you change my dress, shall I be relieved? This is going on. The karmi, karmis, they are simply changing dress: "All right, I have got fever. I have got this dress-change." But make treatment, so that you can be, become relieved from the fever. What is the use of changing dress?

[reading] Samsara hetaktvena klesa hetakta tasmad punya papayor virasatam jnanam eva varsaniya eva ity aha parabhava karma paratantra tad eva jivasya bandhana sahaja ajnana krta sthavad eva bhavati yavan na jijnasatah eti. So long one does not aware that "I am this dress," or "I am beyond this dress…"

[break] tavad karmani nanas santi yavad kriya punya papa karmany suh sthavad idam manah hi karmatmakam karma svabhava eva syat yena karmatmakena manasa sarira bhava. Yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam, parabhavas tavad abodha-jato. Very important verse. Every verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam. There is no more any literature throughout the whole world, such authoritative statement of the Srimad-Bhagavatam. [sings:]

Karmatmakam. Manah. Karmatmakam. "I am thinking always." Just like one Marwari gentleman in Calcutta, that a big merchant in share exchange. So he monopolized one share from Kamarhati[?] state. So he could not sleep at night, and at the time of death, "Kamarhati, Kamarhati, Kamarhati." So he became like the Kamarhati [indistinct]. And you can check it. Where is your science to check it? You cannot check even death. What he will check what he is going to accept another body? That is not in your power. Prakrteḥ kriyamanani gunaiḥ [Bg 3.27].

That is in the hands of prakrti, maya: "Come on, take this body, rascal." How you will avoid it? They do not know. They do not know. They think, "I have conquered. I have got three crores of rupees." Speculating on [indistinct] and share, that's all. Then parabhavaḥ: his three crores of rupees remain with his bank, and he goes with his wife, and he accepts another body. And he is rascal number one. Abodha. Hare Krsna. [end]