Room Conversation – December 26, 1976, Bombay

You have to learn from the right person

Prabhupada: He's taken so much labor. Through English?

Hari-sauri: Romanized devanagari. [break]

Prabhupada: ...books, but they are not selling with... Where is my spectacle?

Hari-sauri: No, there's hundreds and millions of books in India, all..., so many, and no one buys them. [Prabhupada laughs]

[long pause]

Hari-sauri: The man's not very intelligent. He's showing a diagram here showing how the languages evolved through the ages. So he's put that the original language was spoken in Stonehenge, and he shows a man wearing a bearskin. [laughs] [break]

Prabhupada: ...some central point of unity. But the disunity is increasing.

Hari-sauri: Yes.

Prabhupada: And the real platform of unity is Krsna consciousness. Our members, although they speak different languages from different countries, but still they are united.

Hari-sauri: Purpose is the same.

Prabhupada: Language does not make united. This Bangladesh, they speak Bengali. They write Bengali. But why they are separate? America and England, they speak the same language. Why Washington declared independence? Australia, they have also declared independence from England, just a piece of land. So there cannot be unity on any platform unless there is Krsna consciousness. Is it not?

Hari-sauri: Krsna consciousness is the only thing that encompasses everything.

Prabhupada: Yes. This is false idea that by language, linguistic unity, there will be unity. There are so many different examples. Pakistan, they speak Hindi also. Yes, they speak Hindi. And why there is separation? Bangladesh, they speak Bengali. Why they are separated from West Bengal? The linguistic unity is not... Any material platform, there cannot be unity. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannatma [Bg 18.54].

[break]

Hari-sauri: It's the white one. It's on my bed. [break]

Devotee: Hari-sauri is asking if you can take... [break]

Jagadisa: Well, that doesn't mean I can. [indistinct background conversation between devotees; tape static] [break]

Gopala Krsna: Sri Bhaktivedanta Swami, who represents... [break]

Indian lady: In our schools and college...

Prabhupada: [Transl. Bengali proverb. Ati calakera galaya daḍi. Too much cunning overreaches itself.] She'll understand Bengali. That explains. [Transl. One who is too cunning he is hanged.]

Indian lady: Why don't they teach this in our schools and colleges?

Prabhupada: Because they won't take it. They'll take this unauthorized interpretation.

Indian lady: I remember, I come from Sindh, and before Partition we were taught all these religious books in our schools. But now...

Prabhupada: Simply reading will not do. You have to learn from the right person.

Indian lady: By reading, reading, we learn.

Prabhupada: No, if you read as it is, then you will be benefited. But if you read these rubbish commentaries, then... [speaks to another man] Hmm. About that land. He wants to provide the land.

Karttikeya Mahadevia: We have met the court, and the land is still available. Depends on your convenience at how things go.

Giriraja: Yes, we'll take a look at it.

Karttikeya: When can we go?

Giriraja: Tuesday?

Devotee: Or Wednesday would be even better.

Karttikeya: Morning?

Devotee: We can pick him up or meet him there. [devotees talk briefly with Indians]

Karttikeya: While going I will talk to him. I am going tomorrow. Srila Prabhupada, there is another request from Mrs. Shivarkar. She is at Colaba and she would like to invite you and other devotees to show the film and other things, and they can arrange a good gathering over there. Colaba you have not gone for three years. And they have got a very good school over there. So anytime can be given within this or after going to Kumbha-mela?

Prabhupada: After, it would be reasonable. Now…

Karttikeya: During the 7th of January or...

Prabhupada: I may be going away by the 3lst, and there visit the Kumbha-mela. [everyone talking at once, discussing dates]

Gopala Krsna: Devotees will be going there, starting from the 5th, by installments.

Karttikeya: We can keep it after 20th, after 20th of January, when the Kumbha-mela celebrations are over.

Prabhupada: Yes. Kumbha-mela will be over...

Gopala Krsna: No, the 24th, I thought.

Karttikeya: Twenty-fourth, last weekend. Vasanta-pancami.

Prabhupada: Yes. So our only request is that you read Bhagavad-gita as it is. You'll be benefited. And if you interpret whimsically, then you'll rot, spoil. There is no benefit by eating spoiled foodstuff. Krsna says nasta ...

[guest enters] Jaya. Jaya.

Karttikeya: I will leave them and come.

Prabhupada: Prasada, did you get?

Indian lady: Someday I will come and see you.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, you are welcome always. Whenever you find time. [Transl. I told you so many times to try this. You have got talent. You learn. It is real, as it is. You will be benefitted and those whom you speak to they will be benefitted.] Janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara . This is Caitanya. First of all, make your life successful. That successful means yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya [Cc Madhya 8.128], to understand Krsna thoroughly.

Then you become guru. When you understand Krsna, then you are janma sarthaka. And then you can speak para-upakara. Otherwise, it is not possible. Without Krsna tattva-jnana, if we become leader, that will not do. Hare Krsna. Yei krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya. What is that?

Devotee: I got a different vase.

Prabhupada: This is spoiled. Oh. Another.

Devotee: This is a different.

Indian lady: But through chanting also you get...

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the easiest process. Now the previous process of spiritual realization was spoiled and it was not clear. So it is spoiled. But now it is clear, it is nice. Not clear means something added.

Indian lady: Adulterated.

Prabhupada: Something adulteration. Adulterated things are not good. Pure thing, that is good. Why do they not accept? Let us discuss something. Why these people interpret? What is the reason to spoil it?

Indian lady: To gain the leadership?

Prabhupada: But with that leadership, if you cheat others, does it mean leadership?

Indian lady: Or importance. Or the ego, which they, "I have got so many followers. Whether I'm wrong or right, everyone thinks I'm right."

Prabhupada: So what is the meaning of these followers who are all...? What is called? Just like sometimes the... What is called? You take so many lambs, what is that called?

Devotee: Shepherd?

Prabhupada: Shepherd. Yes. The shepherd has many followers. But does it mean any meaning?

Indian lady: We are the sheep. Without any understanding we blindly follow. The public, I mean.

Prabhupada: Yes. So that does not mean that that man is very important, the shepherd, because you follow. What is the meaning of...

Indian lady: But the sheep has no sense of herd. What poor sheep can do?

Prabhupada: That's all right. Because thousands of sheep following one shepherd, does it mean the shepherd is an important man?

Indian lady: One sheep thinks that "So many sheeps are following, let me..."

Prabhupada: That's all right. I say the shepherd is an important man because there is...?

Indian lady: No, not that. No, no.

Prabhupada: No. Then why you take that? That is explained the Bhagavatam, sva-viḍ-varahostra-kharaiḥ samstutaḥ purusaḥ pasuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. The shepherd may be followed by so many sheep, but that does not mean he's an important man. That is the... That is the, going on. The so-called leaders, they are just like shepherd, and we are like sheep. But that does not mean the shepherd is an important man.

Karttikeya: Then what is alternative of that? Can we not change? Suppose I am a sheep...

Prabhupada: You can change immediately. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg 18.66]. You can change immediately, within a second.

Karttikeya: Within a second.

Prabhupada: But because you are sheeps, you'll not do.

Indian lady: But we'll change only when there is a gurukrpa.

Prabhupada: Krsna says... You are taking Bhagavad-gita, the leader is taking Bhagavad-gita, and he's speaking nonsense. So we are human beings; we should know what Krsna says. Krsna says, evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduḥ [Bg 4.2]. The parampara-whether he's speaking parampara or he's speaking whimsically, that much sense we must have. Otherwise, I am the same sheep. Then why you are speaking which is not in the parampara? At least you should be... Now this movement is started because on this principle, that why these rascals are speaking not in the parampara? That is my seed of starting this movement. I must start the movement. That is the impetus of this movement, that they must speak according to the parampara. And someone allowed them to speak otherwise. Therefore I wrote this book, Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Don't make interpretations. And by the grace of Krsna it has become to some extent successful. That is the impetus. Why they should talk nonsense? It is clear that evam parampara praptam [Bg 4.2]. Parampara means... That is also explained.

So if that parampara is lost, now you take the next parampara, as Krsna says, and speak that puratana-yoga.

[aside:] Find out this: sa evayam... Yogaḥ proktaḥ puratanaḥ evayam te.

Prabhupada: "I'm just talking to you the same old yoga system." There is no change. Puratana. Why they make new interpretation? Krsna is saying the puratana, and these people are presenting new interpretation of Bhagavad-gita. Just see. How much misuse has been done, try to understand. No effect.

Indian lady: I'm asking a question, how to stop this which is going on only if we chant God's name, this poor activity...?

Prabhupada: This is also chanting. If you speak Bhagavad-gita as it is, this is also chanting.

Indian lady: Preach to everybody as it is.

Prabhupada: Yes. Present Bhagavad-gita as it is.

Indian lady: You must know what is in Gita.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian lady: Then nobody can fool you. And you know in our so-called Guru Baba's speeches, without gurukrpa you can't get anything. They want to enter...

Prabhupada: No, no. First of all we...

Indian lady: Without gurukrpa we can't get. You can't achieve the goal.

Prabhupada: That's all right, but you have to ask whether are you guru.

Indian lady: That sense you must have. You must know what is what.

Prabhupada: Yes. You are not guru, you are goru.

Indian lady: Goru?

Prabhupada: Goru means cow. Sa eva go-kharaḥ. [laughter] You are not guru. You are speaking against Krsna, so you are not guru. Guru is Arjuna. Because a confidential instruction is given to Arjuna, so we accept Arjuna as guru. Or one who is following Arjuna, he is guru. Arjuna has accepted Krsna, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg 10.12].

You accept Krsna as Parambrahma. You want to become Parambrahma. You are cheating people. You do not say Krsna is Parabrahma, but you are replacing Him. Then you are cheater, you are not guru. That has to be done. So organize this. Very plain thing. Very plain thing. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu did. Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128]. Bas. You become guru.

Indian lady: He said wherever you go, you say Krsna's katha. That is your duty.

Prabhupada: You become guru.

Although Krs… Caitanya Mahaprabhu is guru. He says that [Aside: Come. Sit down] "On My order [Aside: Sit up here] you become guru." But He does not say that "What I am teaching." He says, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128]. He could say, "What instruction I have given." No.

Indian lady: Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, you have said, now the gurus are saying. That "What I am saying, you preach," He doesn't say. He said, "What Krsna said."

Prabhupada: That is guru. One who says like that, he is guru.

Indian lady: [Transl. She has so much devotion to Krsna. She has only one son.] Actually, you must work and achieve bhakti. [Transl. Leave everything else.]

Prabhupada: You can live with your son, husband, you can live. I can give you a room like this. So you haven't got to live underneath a tree. We have got up-to-date. [Transl. You have seen our Vrndavana temple. Is it not?]

Indian lady: You must go to Vrndavana, everywhere.

Prabhupada: We are offering best facility.

Indian lady: No, she is saying, she wants to...

Prabhupada: Similarly, you have seen our Navadvipa also?

Indian lady: Mayapur I have seen.

Prabhupada: Mayapur, yes. So we are giving, as far as possible, comfortable life. Because modern man, he cannot go to the forest and live underneath a tree. That is not possible. Therefore by begging, begging, spending blood, we are getting money all over the world and spend it like this. For me, I can live anywhere. And I can collect one or two roti anywhere. It is not for me; it is for you. I have invited, "Come here, stay and preach this cult, Hare Krsna movement." That I want. People are being cheated all over the world shamelessly.

Indian lady: What about this Guru Grantha Saheb. The philosophy which Guru Grantha Saheb has, what is that about?

Prabhupada: Well, why you are going here and there? Why don't you take one Bhagavad-gita?

Indian lady: Inquisitive mind asks that question.

Prabhupada: I do not know what is Guru Grantha Saheb, but I know Bhagavad-gita. That's all. I am not so learned scholar that I have to read this, that, that. I simply know what Krsna has said, and I know Caitanya Mahaprabhu advises, yare dekha tare kaha. That I have done. That's all.

Karttikeya: You have six o'clock in the morning same thing, six o'clock in the evening same thing. No change. In the morning I was also there. No change. I've brought this gentleman and this lady for that purpose, they want to come here and stay and work for the institution. He's seventy-four years old, and she's also very active and she knows very good cooking.

Prabhupada: Hmm, very good.

Karttikeya: They cannot speak in English. That's the whole difficulty, they are speaking Hindi and Gujarati. They are very..., feeling very shy. And he's very great expert in growing this wheat grass which has become very popular.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Karttikeya: Wheat grass. Everybody likes very much. Your devotees are also liking. He's an expert in this. He's a very good music teacher, he is a very good tape recordist. Puppeteer also, he's making these puppet for last twenty years. He's expert in making puppets. We can make krsna-katha puppets also for our theater. And he can train our young boys for the same thing. Video tape and everything, he knows about this audio-visual communication...

Prabhupada: Everyone has got some talent. So svakarmana tam abhyarcya [Bg 18.46]. That is wanted. Whatever talent you have got, you can utilize for Krsna.

Karttikeya: And I want to utilize for Krsna consciousness. I know him for last twenty-two years.

Prabhupada: [Transl. I invite everyone. If we get that place you can live there and grow.] ...this grass.

Karttikeya: That is a very good... That is very much wanted by… He is taking every day.

Prabhupada: In Krsna consciousness, all varieties of work can be utilized.

Indian lady: [Transl. Kirtan is also very effective, Guruji.]

Prabhupada: Kirtaniyaḥ sada hariḥ . He got perfection, Vaiyasaki, Sukadeva Gosvami, simply narrated. Narration is also kirtana. Recitation of Bhagavatam. By reciting Srimad-Bhagavatam he became perfect. Abhavad vaiyasakiḥ kirtane [Padyavali 53].

Sri-visnoḥ sravane pariksit. Pariksit Maharaja simply listened. There are navadha-bhakti, nine kinds of bhakti process. Any one of them you be expert and you'll be perfect. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. So, where his family?

Karttikeya: He has got one son and daughter. His family is in Bombay. One son is expired earlier. Now he is living with the daughter. He is at Dadar-Shivaji park. And he has got good talent of teaching Hindi, music and tape recording. Agriculture work. And he knows cooking, very good cooking.

Prabhupada: Yes, if she gives cooking direction.

Karttikeya: She is also quite expert in cooking.

Indian man (1) : [Transl. I like doing lot of kirtana.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Here you will have plenty of opportunity of performing kirtana.]

Indian man (1): [Transl. That's all.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Day and night. Until you are tired.]

Indian man (1): [Transl. This is also a part of ninefold devotional service.]

Karttikeya: He plays very good harmonium.

Indian man (2): All musical instruments.

Prabhupada: No, we don't want to introduce harmonium.

Karttikeya: No, I know. That is what he's teaching at the moment. He's doing it out of force, not more that two years.

Prabhupada: To many musical instrument, if he plays, his attention will be diverted in musical instrument, not to chanting: "We have to see melody, whether it is going on nicely." But that is not good. Our concentration should be hearing Hare Krsna. That is... That is bhakti. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, simply this karatala, khol, that's all. In those days, of course, there was no harmonium, but many stringed instruments were there-sitar, esaraja. But these things were not used. Sometimes we do use to attract, but it is not required. [Transl. You are living in his house?]

Indian lady: [Transl. There was kirtana in their house today. Bandra. Good place. It was ecstatic. Many devotees came. Please bless us.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Do it nicely.]

Indian lady: Yesterday I was thinking that the way it was for me, prema-bhakti. Through music it is very easy. [Transl. It was all Krsna's pastimes.] You have to take rest now?

Prabhupada: No, I have taken. prasad. Jaya. Jaya.

Karttikeya: Srila Prabhupada, I've got some good quality Kesari-jivana, cyavana prash. If you like it, you can get more. It is made by Zandu pharmacy. Very good quality.

[break]

Prabhupada: ...by saintly person. Such men should understand. Rajarsi. Not ordinary king. Rsi. Rsi-tulya. So if one is religious, then he is rsi-tulya. Yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg 3.21]. If the big, big leaders, politicians, they accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, then others will follow. Unfortunately, the leaders, they have their own interpretation. They won't accept Bhagavad-gita. That is the difficulty.

Indian man: Prabhupada, how about opening one temple in Ahmedabad?

Prabhupada: Why not? We are opening everywhere, why not in Ahmedabad? Good idea. I want to open centers in every village, in every town.

Indian man: That is very good, but to begin with, if such centers... I was discussing with Giriraja just the other day.

Prabhupada: Is there any chance of opening?

Indian man: Yes. In Ahmedabad? Why not? There is no obstruction. The Christians have now opened up two centers. Arya-samaj has opened one. So there is no restriction. And these areas, like Ahmedabad or in some of these African countries where people have still no inclination or no knowledge of one particular kind of religion or particular thing, they are open to anything which is given to them.

Prabhupada: There must be preacher, good preacher.

Indian man: Preacher of their language. But language is you can study when you go there.

Prabhupada: Language can be managed if there is good preacher.

Karttikeya: But in these areas they don't require that intelligent preachers. Intelligence is required in cities, where people are full of logic and want to argue right or wrong. And where they're determined to prove that "You are wrong, I am right," there you require...

Prabhupada: That will not help. If they are... That is my propaganda. If they are induced to chant Hare Krsna...

Indian man: That's all. So for that, very big preaching is not required. Sincerity is required.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man: It is the personal sincere influence which one...

Prabhupada: America, I simply began this chanting and few minutes' speaking.

Indian man: But in Ahmedabad if one or two centers are open, it will do very well.

Prabhupada: [Transl. You all take retirement and join us.]

Indian man: [Transl. Retirement. It is not possible to retire all together.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No, for the sake of preaching it is required.]

Indian man: [Transl. I don't know how to preach.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. And for it is recommended that pancasordham vanam brajet.]

Indian man: The trouble is, they don't know how to preach.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Preaching is not very difficult. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said,] Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128]. You simply repeat, recite, the instruction of Krsna. That is preaching. That is preaching. And we are doing the same thing. We are doing. We are not introducing any new interpretation. Whatever Krsna has said, bas, finished. And that is becoming effective. We haven't got to manufacture anything.

Indian man: Prabhupada? Jiva Gosvami was the guru of Mira?

Prabhupada: No. I do not know who is the guru of Mirabai. But Mirabai, from the childhood, she was a devotee.

Indian man: She was a devotee, but...

Prabhupada: But I do not hear anyone as her guru.

Indian man: No, but who was living in Vrndavana? Was Jiva Gosvami living in Vrndavana?

Prabhupada: Yes. Six Gosvamis. Rūpa, Sanatana, Bhatta Raghunatha, Sri Jiva, Gopala Bhatta, Dasa Raghunatha. Six Gosvamis, they were immediate disciples of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They were entrusted to develop Vrndavana. And they did it. Modern Vrndavana means this is the contribution of the six Gosvamis.

[break]

Indian man: ...it says that when she went there and...

Prabhupada: So that may be, whatever is there, but Rūpa Gosvami had no reason to refuse seeing a woman.

Indian man: No, but that's what I said. Which Gosvami?

Prabhupada: No, any Gosvami. Because the Gosvamis were so popular that amongst the villagers, when there was some disagreement between family members, they used to come to him and say to him, "Baba, [Transl. "O saintly father, you settle the case." And whatever the Baba would settle they would agree.]" That means in that way he had to see many women many times. Why he should refuse? And what is the meaning of refusing if one, anybody... Even Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not refuse, but women used to offer their respect from little distance, not very near. That was Caitanya Mahaprabhu's restriction. But in our succession there is no such thing as refusing anyone the opportunity. Krsna does not say. Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuḥ papa-yonayaḥ striyaḥ sūdras tatha vaisyaḥ [Bg 9.32]. He does not make any... And so far my institute is concerned, we do not make any such thing. Everyone should be given chance. But we have restriction that we should mix with women very cautiously. You should not have any illicit sex. These things are there.

Indian man: No, that is of course...

Prabhupada: But why a woman should be refused? This is not authentic. Why Rūpa Gosvami should refuse her? They were bhiksu, madhukari. So when one goes for bhiksa, so how he can check that he will not see any woman? How it is possible? He has to go to the householder, "Mataji, [Transl. give me one chapati.]" Or he'll stand. Generally woman comes to give chapati. So how it is possible to restrict the eyes? That is, he does not... I think I cannot accept this, that Rūpa Gosvami refused. Why he should refuse? Vaisnava is kind. But we must mix with women cautiously. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128]. He never says, "Only to the men."

Indian man: But this body designations are not necessary in this preaching.

Prabhupada: As far one who is panḍita, in the position of Rūpa Gosvami, for him, panḍitaḥ sama-darsinaḥ [Bg 5.18].

Indian man: He'll see woman and man equal.

Prabhupada: There is no difference. And if he makes such distinction, then how he's panḍita? Then he's not panḍita. But it is etiquette, matra svasa duhita va. One should not very closely sit down even with mother, sister or daughter. That restriction is there. But that does not mean that one should not see even a woman. So we are following that principle. Never mind, man or woman, she can offer her respect, but not very near. That restriction must be there.

[break] We have support from very high circle. Scholar, priest, even father, mother, parent. Many old gentlemen come to congratulate me, "Swamiji, it is our great fortune that you have come to this country." In Los Angeles they have been very nice. Many parents used to come. [Transl. Did you visit again after that?]

Indian man: No. Now Giriraja is going about with this school work.

Prabhupada: Yes. But the building is not yet sanctioned. You have seen inside temple?

Indian man: Yes. I come here once a week. [break]

Prabhupada: This is... Of course, I gave him the idea. But Saurabh's design. He's Dutch. He's Dutch boy. The Vrndavana is also his.

Indian man: How is the Kuruksetra going?

Prabhupada: Kuruksetra, the government has not yet decided to give us land.

Indian man: The Hyderabad gurukula?

Prabhupada: Hyderabad land we have got.

Indian man: Gurukula.

Prabhupada: It is very nice place, Hyderabad. I was going interior. I liked it very much.

Indian man: Prabhupada, there is a place here, near Dahanu. That's about sixty, eighty miles from here. About which I had once mentioned to you before

[break]

Prabhupada: That's what they're eating, that lamb's flesh.

Indian man: Now, Prabhupada, even Jains eat meat.

Prabhupada: Jain?

Indian man: Jains.

Prabhupada: Where is ?

Indian man: They eat meat.

Karttikeya: The doctors are recommending in some seminer.

Prabhupada: Who cares for them? In Gujarat they are eating fish?

Karttikeya: No, eggs. They have started eating two lakhs of eggs in Ahmedabad.

Indian man(2): Ahmedabad is a very big meat-eating center.

Karttikeya: Meat-eating center because there are many Muslims also.

Indian man: No. no, no, no. They are staunch Gujratis.

Prabhupada: In Surat I was guest of that Jariwala. So on the morning walk I went to the riverside. So I saw so many fisherwoman carrying the big basket. So I asked the driver, he was Muhammadan, "Why these fisherwomen here?" He said, "Nowadays, all Gujaratis, they're eating fish."

Indian man: I tell you, Prabhupada, very, very old..., before 1937, in Bhavnagar, Saurashtra, we had our office in '37..., '35 we had. I was in Karachi. We sent one manager from Peshawar, twenty-year man. So he used to eat meat and fish and everything, and a young man he was...

Prabhupada: Punjabi?

Indian man: Frontier. Afghan. Hindu brahmana. But there the brahmanas also eat meat. Kashmiri brahmanas eat meat. So he was about 25, 24 years old at that time. When he reached Bhavnagar, he could not get a house. There were so many "To Let's" but wherever he went he was told no. So after all he got fed up, he inquired what is the reason. He said, "You are a non-Katyawari, non-Saurashtri. You are from the frontier, so you must be eating meat and eggs. So we'll not give you our house." So ultimately, one of his business friends-because he was the manager of the office after a month or so-one of the business friends, he said, "All right, I'll get you a house if you give a written undertaking that you'll not eat meat." So he said, "Okay, thank you. I'll write undertaking that I'll not eat meat."

One year passed. But when he used to come back from office, in front of a particular shop he used to see... In those days even a crowd of twenty persons in front of a shop was a big thing. So he would see ten, fifteen people and eat what is stop in a shop and take a small tiffin box, drop off a small tiffin box and walk away. So one day he also stopped there, and he asked the shop-wala for this tiffin box. "What you are giving in there?" "That," he said, "is not for you." "What it is?" He said, "It's not for you. You'll not get it." Then he visited that fellow five, six times, then ultimately that man said, "Look here, why you want to know all about that? It's not meant for you, and you'll not be able to use it." He said, "What is? Can you tell me?" Then he brought it, gave it to him, he opened it. It was minced meat. "But it's meat." "How do you know it is meat?" He said, "I have been living in Punjab for all of my life. I know what is meat." He said, "Now don't shout. Go away from here. They are my customers." "They are your customers? They are the very people who have been refusing me a house!" The same people.

Prabhupada: Ah. [laughs] Meat-eating is now worldwide. I have seen now in the aeroplane one Marwari gentlemen, he was eating the intestines of the hog.

Indian man: Not one. In our relationships, not one. They are competing with each other.

Karttikeya: What is the motivation?

Prabhupada: They have learned it.

Indian man: No, no. Fashion. Now one thing is they can hold off the rich people in India. That is not now, but about, put it back to 1944-45, during the war time, British time. That hold has become stronger. If we do not eat West, particularly America, then we are called "uncivilized." So to prove that I am civilized, there are three things: I must speak English, my children must go to missionary or convent schools, we must adopt Western customs and etiquette, and we must, being all that, adopt their eating habits. Now if I'm not accepted in the American society... Even the British is now called uncivilized comparatively. If I'm not accepted by the Americans, that "Yes, I know the standards and I live like them or even better than them," then I am supposed to be common. This is the conception of civilization amongst the Marwaris and the Gujaratis of the richer class. Previously it used to be, as they say of ancient India, that if one did not speak Sanskrit he was supposed to be uncivilized. So now that has come out...

Prabhupada: In our childhood, my father's generation, in Calcutta, if a gentleman does not keep a prostitute extra, he is not a respectable man.

Indian man: That was in Delhi? That was during the Mogul time in Delhi? Even after the Mogul time? Not only keeping. In Delhi one of my very..., my father's very close friend, Lala Shriram from Delhi...

Prabhupada: Oh, Shriram is a famous man.

Indian man: No, not that millionaire. Another Shriram. And they were from Delhi. Just I'm talking only about 1939, 40. In Karachi he came. He said every boy, before marriage, his marriage, he was supposed to go and take training from a prostitute for a month or so.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Indian man: If a boy was not trained there, he could not find a good wife.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Indian man: That was a part of his qualification to get a good wife.

Prabhupada: Now how it is marr..., because the bride and bridegroom is selected by the parents.

Indian man: Yes, the parents would not select that boy.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Indian man: Because parents, as they inquire today, "How much you are educated?" these things, that was one of the qualifications.

Prabhupada: So what is the purpose?

Indian man: [laughs] I don't know. But to learn all these etiquettes of methods when you are in a sabha, in a dancing and singing hall these cabarets and all the... That type of cabaret, how you should behave.

[pause]

Gopala Krsna: We will leave at 7:25, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hmm. What is the time?

Gopala Krsna: Fifteen minutes. Fifteen, twenty minutes.

Prabhupada: What will be about the light?

Gopala Krsna: They are fixing it up now. I don't know why it goes out. I've told the construction department to look into it, to fix it. I don't know why it went out again.

Prabhupada: In our area only?

Gopala Krsna: Just here, the top floor of this building. Just your apartment and the next apartment.

Prabhupada: Other buildings, they are...

Gopala Krsna: Yes, yes. Even our buildings other side have it. Just this one.

Karttikeya: Some emergency light needs to be connected here, so automatically the light goes out it will start working.

Prabhupada: In Vrndavana they have got that generator.

Karttikeya: Generator is very good, but [indistinct].

Gopala Krsna: We don't need it in Bombay, because in Bombay it never goes off.

Karttikeya: Or that battery type light.

Gopala Krsna: I think it's going off because something is wrong with the wiring in this apartment.

Prabhupada: Here.

Gopala Krsna: Otherwise, there's no reason. Like on our side it doesn't go out at all.

Prabhupada: In Vrndavana it takes only two minutes to change. Similarly, we have in Mayapur also.

Karttikeya: So can I know the reason why you are discouraging the use of gobar gas plant or cow dung gas plant? Last time? Because I could not understand actual technical difficulty. Is there any difficulty?

Prabhupada: No, we can utilize the gobar in different way.

Karttikeya: No, but gobar gas is not good, that's why I was...

Prabhupada: No, no, not good. But we have to arrange for this plant, generate gas. So why not direct?

Karttikeya: No, but the fuel is achieved, but the fertilizer is lost. Gobar, there are two elements. One is a methane gas and one is fertilizer. If you burn it, you are burning the fertilizer, which is very, very important, and very, very useful against the fuel that we get.

Prabhupada: No, that ash is very good.

Karttikeya: No, ash is not the full fertilizer. It is only partial. Ten percent of the fertilizer becomes ash. The organic matter is burned with great loss to the society and the earth.

Prabhupada: But in our Mayapur, that plant, we spent so much, it has not become successful.

Karttikeya: No, that is mechanical fault. Just like electricity now it has failed. Now, sir, we should not stop utilizing electricity.

Prabhupada: No, any machine, that defect will be there.

Karttikeya: But that we have been working for twenty years in Ahmedabad. Everybody is very happy there, and they're actually making money out of it. The fertilizer that is there is about four times what is normally achieved. So good maintenance are required for any...

Prabhupada: [sneezes loud] I have no objection, but I've got experience, in Mayapur it is failure.

Indian man (2): Sometimes we get a defective machine. I purchased one for my Indore house. I've got a number of about thirty thousand. But one was rejected but...

Karttikeya: Either defective machine or defective maintenance.

Prabhupada: Maybe. But the difficulty is there. [sneezes]

[pause]

Indian man: [Transl. So you will stay here 10/15 days?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. That program is] ...31st to go for Bhubaneswar. Then come to Kumbha-mela.

Gopala Krsna: Or you can stay here and go to Kumbha-mela straight?

Prabhupada: That can be also done. I am waiting for one letter from Gaura-Govinda Maharaja.

Gopala Krsna: Gaura-Govinda. Then from Kumbha-mela you can go to Orissa, from Orissa to Mayapur. Then you have go to Kodaikanal.

Prabhupada: Kodaikanal, have you been ever? I have to inquire whether it is zigzag.

Karttikeya: Oh, Kodaikanal. South. Kodaikanal. That is very famous place.

Gopala Krsna: Is it zigzag or is it straight?

Karttikeya: No, zigzag. In the mountain, just like Mahabaleswar.

Gopala Krsna: No, that is not good.

Prabhupada: Oh, then it is...

Karttikeya: Kodaikanal is that side only.

Gopala Krsna: I mean, is there a train station or aeroplane, airport?

Karttikeya: Railway may be going. Kodaikanal, railway may be going.

Indian man (2): But even that will be zigzag. [indistinct; everyone speaking at once]

Karttikeya: Simla, Darjeeling, it's like that road. It's like the road, but little less zigzag. But zigzag is there.

Prabhupada: Simla, er, Darjeeling is not so zigzag, but big, big loops.

Karttikeya: Loops are big. Roads are very difficult. Kodaikanal there is no train. In Ootacamund there is a train.

Gopala Krsna: Kodaikanal there is no train at all?

Prabhupada: No, there is train from Madras.

Karttikeya: Kodaikanal you'll have to change and then go by motorcar.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Karttikeya: That inquire.

Gopala Krsna: I can inquire.

Karttikeya: When you come in Ootacamund there is a direct train. There are railway stations nearby. [more indistinct discussion]

[Prabhupada rings bell]

Gopala Krsna: You want Jagadisa or Hari-sauri?

Prabhupada: Anyone. He can take this.

Gopala Krsna: [indistinct] Have they come, the electrician?

Hari-sauri: No.

Prabhupada: I like that place, Hyderabad.

Indian man: Hyderabad.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (2): The temple in the city is also very good.

Prabhupada: Oh, you have seen it?

Indian man (2): Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: Karttikeya, you've seen?

Karttikeya: I have seen one, before the opening. I haven't gone after the opening.

Prabhupada: It is very nice. That is the nicest temple in Hyderabad.

Gopala Krsna: Yes, thousands of people come every day.

Indian man (2): It's right in the center. [end]