Conversation with Dr. Shaligram Shukla–Part 2 – July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: There are certain hymns in Vedas which are so personal and [indistinct]. And I don't find anything in Vedas impersonal. As a matter of fact...

Prabhupada: No, no, impersonal there is. Impersonal means negation of this material thing. Neti neti, "Not this." Impersonal means not this material person. That is impersonal. Krsna is person, but in order to convince people that He's person but not a material person, the material things have to be negated. That is Upanisad. Just to evade the material conception of the Absolute. But ultimately He's person. Brahmano 'ham pratistha [Bg 14.27]. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anḍa-koti-kotisu [Bs 5.40]. These things are there. So in order to substantiate the Supreme Person as completely spiritual, the material conception of personality is rejected. That is impersonal. Nirguna means He has no material qualities. Bhakta-vatsala. [affectionate to His devotees.] Krsna is bhakta-vatsala. That is not material quality, that is spiritual quality. So negation of material understanding is impersonal. But when one is fully in awareness of Krsna, His spiritual identity, then again He's person.

Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada gave the example this morning that something which is personal can speak, just like Krsna spoke Bhagavad-gita, Krsna's described in Bhagavad-gita as the Supreme. But we don't have any experience of something impersonal like the sky speaking to us. So if the Supreme is impersonal, how is it that the Bhagavad-gita is spoken by Him?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Mayavadis like Swami Vivekananda, he questions, "Who was that Krsna?" Was Krsna King of Dvaraka or anybody else? He don't know even that.

Prabhupada: He's a fool. He does not know, therefore other does not know. It is not the fact. He's a fool. He does not know.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: He does not know. He said that Gita is karma-yoga, and writes volumes and volumes...

Prabhupada: That is his foolishness. That is his foolishness. Gita is completely bhakti-yoga. Sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. Everything is finished. And what is karma-yoga? What is karma-yoga?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: According to these Mayavadis...

Prabhupada: Not according, according to Bhagavad-gita.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: According to Bhagavad-gita, all the karma should be done for Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: For Krsna, yes. So that is bhakti-yoga. Yat karosi kurusva tad mad-arpanam [Bg 9.27]. That is bhakti. Karma-yoga means bhakti. That is the difficulty, that these Mayavadis, they have killed India's Vedic civilization. Now India is atheist. Very tragic position.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: What are your plans for India? Because I was in India...

Prabhupada: We are pushing this Krsna consciousness. That is being appreciated. It will take some time. Because so much mischievous activities have been done by the Mayavadis, to counteract, it will take some time. They are simply mischievous. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has rejected them. Mayavadi bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa [Cc Madhya 6.169]. If one takes the Mayavadi version of the sastras, then his spiritual life is finished. He becomes atheist. His spiritual life is finished. Now what is the contribution? You talked about Vivekananda. What is his contribution?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Nothing. He accomplished nothing.

Prabhupada: Nothing. Simply he has taught the sannyasis to eat meat. That is his contribution.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: The Westerners thousands of pages writing nonsense.

Prabhupada: He says there is no harm eating meat.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: As long as it's not his meat.

Prabhupada: This is going on. Narayana has become daridra. Daridra-narayana, these are Vivekananda's contribution. And spoiled India's spiritual tradition. He has created one illiterate priest as God. That is his contribution, if you become honest to understand. So it will take some time to counteract all these mischievous activities.

Rūpanuga: You will do it, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Simply mischievous.

Devotee (1): How is it that these men are so attractive to the Indian people?

Prabhupada: They have become fools. Fool's paradise, they have been made.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Because Vivekananda became very popular in America, and...

Pusta Krsna: Who became popular in America?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Vivekananda.

Pusta Krsna: No, he didn't. That's their propaganda.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: That's propaganda, yes, but...

Pusta Krsna: I never heard of Vivekananda until I went to Bengal.

Devotee (1): The Vedanta Society was formed there...

Prabhupada: No, no, the other day we spoke that... Now in Vrndavana, you know, we have got our temple. So the Ramakrishna Mission, they have got their temple also. In our temple, thousands and thousands of these Americans came, and not a single one went there. If they had preached anything, then why these American boys and girls are not interested, "Let us see what the Ramakrishna Mission says"? They do not know even. There are many present here who went to Vrndavana, and none of them were interested to see. Why? If there was any propaganda... This is practical proof. Why none of them were interested, "Oh, here is also Ramakrishna Mandir, let us go here"? Nodody. [Transl. What do you say Suklaji? Isn't it practical?]

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes, of course. Of course, even in India I don't think Vivekananda is that popular. It's localized within one area, and people probably just had no good books to read, and they got some of his writings. I know my father brought some books and...

Prabhupada: So where is your home?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: It's in Benares, Kasi. So there were some books by Vivekananda. And he is emotionally against Vivekananda, so that's a little too much perhaps. So he brought those books so that I could read them, I was curious. And I said, "When you are through, give it to your cook." [laughter] That's the only functional use of those books.

Prabhupada: So burning it in the fire?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes, he said so that we can make our capatis, to have some use of those things. [laughter] And Krsna, of course, there's hardly a village in India where, whether knowingly or unknowingly, people are not aware of this Krsna.

Prabhupada: In India they know, everyone. They observe Janmastami.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Krsna param bhajami.

Indian man: In India everybody knows Krsna, even the illiterate person, but nobody knows Vivekananda. Only a few people, they started a Vedanta as a fashion.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Of course Veda is a very serious literature, it's not just anybody can get into that, it's a very..., it's a disciplic...

Prabhupada: Brahma-sūtra-padais caiva hetumadbhir viniscitaiḥ [Bg 13.5]. Very.... Nyaya-prasthana. But Vedanta-sūtra is explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Therefore our Gauḍiya Vaisnavas, they did not write any comment on the Vedanta-sūtra. They accept Srimad-Bhagavatam is the real bhasya. But when the Gauḍiya-Vaisnavas are challenged that "You have no Vedanta-sūtra bhasya, therefore you cannot be accepted as transcendental party," so Baladeva Vidyabhūsana immediately gave Govinda-bhasya on Vedanta. Our Gosvamis, they did not write, because they knew Brahma-sūtra bhasya, Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Indian devotee: Srila Prabhupada, I was also a victim of this Vivekananda philosophy for a long time, and my father was very against.

Prabhupada: What is the philosophy?

Indian devotee: There is no philosophy, but I was... It was amusing... My father all the time was telling me to do some devotional service, and I was... No, if I would not do it, I would not get my breakfast. So I had to do it. Anyway. But now you have your books, and they have just like really given me proper guidance.

Indian lady: Srila Prabhupada, I read Ramakrishna when I was fifteen years old, and I became so restless and anxious for guru, and I began to concentrate so much, and I become so God conscious. But I don't know what happened to me by reading Ramakrishna, and day and night I was thinking I should have guru, sad guru, I should have some discipline, spiritual discipline. And then I heard, and he gave me so much inspiration. So I don't know. I can't criticize anyone. I don't know what's wrong with me.

Prabhupada: Eh? [devotees laugh] What is the question?

Pusta Krsna: The question is that she was so much inspired when she was very young, she read some words by Ramakrishna.

Prabhupada: What was the particular thing?

Indian lady: Life. His life. I did not read the philosophy, but his life.

Pusta Krsna: Then she started looking for guru. She became very aware of the need for a guru.

Indian lady: And that's why I found you.

[laughter]

Pusta Krsna: Many of us who have similar experiences like that. Naturally, we weren't always so fortunate that we first came in contact with Srila Prabhupada's books or his disciples, like this. But somehow or another we weren't satisfied by anything, because there was some gap, some void, some missing information that didn't satisfy us.

Prabhupada: Which portion appealed to you in Ramakrishna's life?

Indian lady: Well, his life, his discipline.

Prabhupada: Which portion?

Indian lady: [indistinct] He was very disciplined, like in the relationship with his wife. And there was no sense gratification in his life. When he used to be mad at devotional songs, he used to clap, he used to sing, he used to chant, and he used to cry.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Of course, first we were talking about Vivekananda, not Ramakrishna. They are two different personalities and two different paths.

Indian lady: Yes, but I thought about Ramakrishna... Many times I get devotees who say to me, "Oh, he's a rascal." I say, "I don't know, I can't say rascal." I don't read him, but he inspired me so much. And I don't know what's wrong. Am I wrong or foolish or not? Everybody has [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Now, what is the philosophy of Ramakrishna?

Indian lady: I did not read it. He does not say that Krsna is God, so I didn't read it. And I was very young at that time.

Prabhupada: If you want to discuss, there is points of discussion. [laughs] Yes.

[laughter]

He worshiped Kali, is it not? Everyone knows it. Do you know that? And by worshiping he became God. Do you agree to that?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: No. He said, "I'm Rama and Krsna both."

Prabhupada: But he realized by worshiping Kali. [laughter]

Devotee: He dressed up as Radharani, too.

Prabhupada: So do you agree to that? Then how you appreciate it?

Indian lady: No, I don't appreciate it.

[laughter]

Indian man: Then we can simply call him a rascal.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. And it is a common sense. [Transl. Suklaji, you consider this.] He, later on, he became God by worshiping Kali, is it not?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes. He was touched by Kali.

Prabhupada: No, he was a big worshiper of Kali. And he was meat-eater also, Ma Kali's prasada, that unless one eats that prasadam he cannot become a devotee. So this was his position, that he worshiped Kali and later on by worshiping Kali... His picture is there, Mother Kali's embracing. And he also preached yata mata tata pat: "Whatever path you take, accept, that is all right." Is it not? So do you think it is all right? He worshiped Kali and he said, yata mata tata pat. You agree to this?

Indian lady: No.

Prabhupada: Now, Ramakrishna says yata mata tata path. And Krsna says... He became Ramakrishna, identifying himself with Krsna. But Krsna said mam ekam, and now he's becoming Krsna, he says yata mata tata path. Just see. Boliya Sukla. When he's actual Krsna, he says mam ekam, and when he became imitation Krsna, he says yata mata tata path. Krsna has changed his views.

[laughter]

Just see, this foolishness is going on.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Well, it's documented that he was kind of deranged, of a deranged mind.

[laughter]

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the proof.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes, because he was, when he was thirteen or seventeen he was walking, he was going from one village to another village through the paddy fields, and the clouds were very thick, and thunder and lightning, and as he writes that he saw Kali. And I have a friend in England, Colin Wilson, who has done some work on Ramakrishna, he believes that at that very moment...

Prabhupada: These are miracles, that's all.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes, that miracle. It changes...

Prabhupada: It has no value. People are after miracles. So in the Bhagavad-gita it is said, kamais tais tair hrta-jnanaḥ yajante 'nya-devataḥ [Bg 7.20]. Those who are worshipers of other demigods, they are hrta-jnanaḥ. Hrta-jnanaḥ, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura gives his comment, hrta-jnanaḥ nasta buddhayaḥ: one who has lost his intelligence. So by worshiping the demigod Kali he is to be considered as hrta-jnanaḥ, one who has lost his intelligence-and he becomes God. Is it possible? One who has lost his intelligence, he becomes God, with that lost intelligence. And this is the proof that on account of lost intelligence, he says yata mata tata path. Krsna says mam ekam. Sarva dharman parityajya [Bg 18.66]. And when he became Ramakrishna, same Krsna is speaking, no: yata mata tata path. So he has changed his view. We have to accept this? And how he gave up his wife, that's a long history, I don't wish to discuss. We know everything.

Indian lady: I don't believe it. Actually I'm very impressed with Mirabai.

Prabhupada: So we cannot accept something which is beyond the instruction of sastra.

If you have no knowledge of the sastra, then you'll never be successful in your spiritual life, what to speak of happiness and liberation. It is not possible.

Indian lady: Is Mirabai Lord Caitanya's disciple?

Prabhupada: I'm talking of this Ramakrishna particularly. There is no sastra-siddhanta. Whimsical, sentiment, that's all. So far his yata mata tata path is concerned, at last he proposed, "Now I shall worship according to the Muhammadan process. So I have to eat cow's flesh." So he was living in that temple... What is that temple in Calcutta?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Daksineswara.

Prabhupada: Ah, Daksineswara. So the temple was owned by one big zamindar. So because it is temple, he cannot take... Of course, in that temple Kali was there. So they were taking fish and flesh. That was not objectionable. But he, when he wanted to take cow's flesh, so he wanted permission from proprietor, "Sir, I shall now practice according to Muhammadan system. So I take cow's flesh. So I want your permission." So he said, "Sir, I've given you so much licenses, but if you ask this, then I'll ask you to go out. I cannot give you this permission." Then he stopped Muhammadan way of worship. This is whimsical.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: We have another mentally retarded person in India, like Sai Baba. He was the same of the same category, Ramakrsna Paramahamsa.

Prabhupada: Yes, magic.

Pusta Krsna: We have that newspaper from South Africa.

Prabhupada: Yes. Anyway, we are not after all this magic. We are laymen. We do not want this magic, neither we want to show magic. We simply, as canvasser of Krsna, we are preaching Krsna consciousness: "Sir, Krsna says like this, you do like that," that's all. If you like, you can do; otherwise let us do our own business. We don't show any magic, neither we speak anything which is not in the Bhagavad-gita. If there is little success, it is due to this secret, that's all. [Transl. What do you say Suklaji? Do we preach anything else?]. Krsna says that He is Supreme, mattaḥ parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7]. So we are preaching, "Yes, Krsna is the Supreme," that's all.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Therefore you are doing so with tremendous success.

Prabhupada: Yes, people say that "Swamiji, you have done wonder, you have..." so on, so on, so on. But I do not know what is wonder. I know it is certain that I have not adulterated. That much I know. But I do not know how to play wonders. That I do not know. But I am certain that I have not adulterated what Krsna has said. That's all. And I study everything by the crucial test of Krsna's teaching. That's all. Krsna says,

As soon as we see that somebody is not Krsna conscious or Krsna's devotee, I take him immediately he's a duskrtina, he's a mūḍha, he's a naradhama. "Oh, he's educated!" No, mayayapahrta-jnana. Finish. Our study finish. We take it immediately that here is a mayayapahrta-jnana. That's all. Asuram bhavam asritaḥ. Because he denies to accept Krsna, he must be within this group: duskrtina, mūḍha, naradhama, mayayapahrta-jnana. So people will be sorry or happy, we take them like that, that "Here is a duskrtina," that's all.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Tulasi dasa has also said [Indistinct] that who is not God..., Krsna conscious, you should behave them like your enemy.

Prabhupada: That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, that asat-sahga tyaga ei vaisnava acara [Cc Madhya 22.87]. The Vaisnava's behavior is to give up bad company. So who is bad? Next question will be that "I have to give up the bad company. Who is bad?" Then He says, next line: asat eka stri sahgi 'krsnabhakta' ara. Two words. Those who are too much attached to woman and those who are not devotee of Krsna, they are bad. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says give up the company of these two bad men, that's all. That is Vaisnava. So everything is there. If you simply follow with sincerity, then Krsna is pleased. As Arjuna says, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava [Bg 18.73]." That's all. He becomes perfect. And Krsna immediately accepts, na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamaḥ [Bg 18.69]. He becomes immediately recognized by Krsna. Ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg 18.68]. Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamaḥ. Priya-krttamaḥ. Priya-krttamaḥ, superlative. Priya-krt, priya-krtara, priya-krttamaḥ [dear, more dear, most dear]. So let us follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gita as it is, our life will be perfect. That is a fact. Don't divert your attention here and there.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, you were a chemist before, but I think you are the greatest alchemist to have taken so many leaden souls and turned them into golden Vaisnavas. Perhaps you can even transform me, by your mercy.

Prabhupada: So Krsna is giving us facilities to preach this cult. Everywhere we have got very, very palatial buildings to accommodate devotees. Now we have got here a very nice place, accommodate devotees. Everywhere we have got. In Bombay we are getting the best temple in India. We are spending crores of rupees; Krsna is giving us money. So I started the business with forty rupees. [laughter] That was also not American currency. They allowed me to bring forty rupees. So when I was getting off the ship I asked the captain, "I have brought these forty rupees, which will not be accepted here, so you take." At that time three books I had, the first, second and third Bhagavata. So I asked him that "You purchase. Give me some dollars." So he asked, "What is the price?" "Sixteen dollars." So he gave me twenty dollars, and I delivered them. With that twenty dollars I got down on the land of America, and that forty rupees. So I did not know where to go, where to stay.

So Krsna is giving us all facilities, and these American boys are helping. I think those who are Indians in this..., they should join this movement sincerely and preach more vigorously. People will be benefited. This is real substance. Otherwise people are being misguided, so many things going on, Transcendental meditation, the..., what is called?

Devotee: Maharishi?

Prabhupada: No, another. So many. Actually, speaking for the last at least two hundred years, many svamis, people, came here, but not a single person was converted to become a devotee of Krsna. That is history. What do you think, Sukla? You have studied. So many svamis, yogis, scholars came, and they spoke on Bhagavad-gita and other, but not a single person became a devotee of Krsna.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: I think they try to be impersonal.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. They are supposed to be great personalities, but not a single person was converted.

Indian man: There was a TV program three weeks ago and there was some yogi Amrit Desai or something, he was in Philadelphia, he was asked who is spiritual master. He couldn't tell that. He could not answer who can be spiritual master, and he posed himself as a spiritual master.

Prabhupada: So here is an opportunity to preach real India's traditional culture. So those who are Indians present here, they should cooperate. They should not mislead persons.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: We have started teaching your Gita at Georgetown University, where I teach. Before we had..., we have two years' course of Sanskrit, and we had some excerpts from Mahabharata and some Panca-tantra and so on, but there was no Gita. So I decided, and we are using the entire Gita for the second year. Your contributions just can't be duplicated.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: And same thing with Bhagavatam. We all know what a great book that is, and what I really appreciate about the whole thing is, number one, that there are no misprints in the book. So that's a great delight. Especially, for people who do not know Sanskrit, for them, there's no difference between the wheat and the germ that comes with it. The translations are very accurate. So it's real scholarship there. And people who were not aware of this Krsna consciousness, they know that if the intellect is so powerful, the spirit must be powerful too. Our library, of course, has several copies, and our bookstore has almost all the...

Prabhupada: All over the world they have given standing order. [laughter]

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Of course, it's very attractive to look at, another thing, the colors. So it's a beauty sight. But for some people...

Prabhupada: [aside:] In India, the list you have got? Bring it. We have got standing order from all institution, universities, colleges, standing orders: "Send as soon as possible."

Devotee (2): The best thing is to distribute them everywhere.

Prabhupada: In Germany, in Russia we have got orders. The Russian professors, they have given order.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Your interview with the Russian professor was really sublime. I read it. I gave it to them.

Prabhupada: You were in Russia?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: No, I read in Bhavan's Journal, quoted from Bombay. I gave it to him.

Devotee (1): It was in the journal. Your article was in one of the Indian journals.

Prabhupada: My talk with Professor Kotovsky?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Yes.

Devotee (1): Actually, other Indians also commented they appreciate it very much.

Indian devotee: That was the first time I started association, then I came to right path, ah, right direction, otherwise I was fooling around with Vivekananda.

Prabhupada: Now other professors, they have given. Russia. They have given highly appreciation. Any scholar will appreciate. Apart from religious point of view, from scholarly point of view, they like it.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: I think you should maybe some day in the future also put out a grammar, Sanskrit grammar, whether yourself you write or somebody who you trust.

Prabhupada: Grammar?

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Grammar of Sanskrit language published by the Krsna...

Prabhupada: We have got grammar, Jiva Gosvami, harinamamrta-vyakarana.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Is it in English, available in translation?

Prabhupada: No, not here.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Well, I mean for the foreigners.

Prabhupada: But there is grammar. Harinamamrta, all examples, words are harinamamrta. Yes, these are the list of, apart from European, America. "Cc" means Caitanya-caritamrta, "SB" means Srimad-Bhagavatam, standing order.

Pusta Krsna: In addition to other books also. This is within the last few months. They just started after our Mayapur festival.

Devotee (3): In Europe, Srila Prabhupada, there's a very nice Hungarian boy, he's a translator. He doesn't know English expertly, but I kept talking to him, and he was working on translating...

Prabhupada: How he'll translate?

Devotee (3): He's a Hungarian, and he knows Russian also.

Prabhupada: That's all right, but if he does not know English, how he can translate?

Devotee (3): He knows English quite fluently, but he feels not so expert in it. He's developing his expertise for English too. [break] [end]