Conversation During Massage
January 23, 1977, Bhuvanesvara
Gargamuni: ...against the village people, and they harass the workers after working hours. So Jayapataka said he was going to get the police there to watch.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bring police and in the presence of police go on working, and if he disturbs, kill him. That's all. Sate sartham samacaret.
Gargamuni: He's a big demon.
Prabhupada: So you become bigger demon. (laughter) [break] Place an application to the district magistrate and take police help. [break] ...ism.
Brahmananda: So then they made these sacks.
Gargamuni: Actually there was...
Gargamuni: There was no harm. Nothing was falling on his land. He was just saying that. [break]
Satsvarupa: People don't see any other program from us nowadays except that.
Prabhupada: So you decide amongst yourselves. Majority should be taken.
Satsvarupa: I know. We'll be doing that at Mayapur, but we all want to follow what your direction is.
Prabhupada: So give me detailed statement. I shall... [break] All right.
Hari-sauri: Their ideas run similar, that they wanted to... Their so-called philosophy was that all the working people should be supplied sufficient foodstuffs and there shouldn't be any capitalism and..., like this.
Prabhupada: The Gandhi's philosophy is to wipe out the capitalist, Britishers, and his philosophy also, the same.
Satsvarupa: But one was nonviolent.
Prabhupada: That is only pretext.
Ramesvara: You have already defined violence as "Anything which does not save a man from repeated birth and death, that is violence."
Prabhupada: Yes. Violence, I take it in this way, that you have got right to possess this. If I do not allow you to possess, that is violent. Somehow or other, I check it, and that is violence.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. There is natural right, and they are checking. That is violence. To check one from his rightful position is violence. That is called himsa, that... Krsna therefore says, amanitvam adambitvam ahimsa. You should not check anybody from his natural advancement, spiritual life. That is ahimsa.
Satsvarupa: What about the platform of just not killing anyone? Is there any credit to that?
Prabhupada: You are not killed. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, "Who kills and who is killed?"
Satsvarupa: But, say for political reasons, Stalin would kill.
Prabhupada: No, that is politics, that.
Satsvarupa: But Gandhi would say, "No, don't kill because..."
Prabhupada: Gandhi's a rascal. Therefore he is failure. "In politics there is no violence"—that is another rascaldom.
Ramesvara: How has India improved by independence? What is the improvement? They are more godless than ever.
Prabhupada: No, he... He... When the Hindus approached him that "You have got so much influence over the Muhammadans. Stop cow-killing," he replied, "How can I stop their cow-killing? It is their religion." Just see. He accepted something as religion which is killing. He's such a rascal.
Prabhupada: He was nonviolent. "In the name of religion, one can kill." This is his philosophy. He was a politician. That's all. And he indulged personally in mercy killing in his asrama. One calf was suffering, and he asked, "Kill him. He's very much suffering." Mercy killing. He was a rascal. But we don't say publicly, because he is very much... Sometimes we say.
Prabhupada: What he...? He's not qualified man.
Ramesvara: This past year Russia sponsored a war in Africa, Angola. Is it Africa or South America? It's Africa, Angola? The Russians sponsored one war. They supplied all the money, all the weapons, and they were victorious. They conquered a country through their local Communist party.
Prabhupada: Which is?
Ramesvara: It's called Angola. And the Americans were trying to support the opposing side. But the public in America has got such a bad taste from Vietnam that they became what they call isolationists.
Prabhupada: They have become hopelessly, what is called, unsuccessful in Vietnam.
Ramesvara: Yes. So they're very, very reluctant. So they withdrew public support, and the government had to withdraw, and the country was lost.
Ramesvara: America, it seems, is becoming very weak.
Prabhupada: Means if they have got strength, if they have got strength they can attack Russia. I've said that. But they have no moral strength. Drunkard, illicit sex, they have no mental determination, cannot.
Ramesvara: They are thinking, "Why should we get involved in fighting miles away..."
Prabhupada: That is another laziness. For good cause one should.
Ramesvara: They are thinking, "What if the people want to be Communist? Why should we interfere?"
Prabhupada: That means cowardice. They have no conviction that Communism is dangerous, godlessness.
Ramesvara: They are forgetting how dangerous it is.
Hari-sauri: Now they have a policy called detente, where... It means that they try to become friendly with the Russians and do exchanges.
Prabhupada: All economic.
Ramesvara: To ease the tension.
Prabhupada: Pound, shilling, pence: "Money, bring money."
Ramesvara: Yes. But actually the Russians have so much cheated that...
Prabhupada: They must cheat, because they are first-class rogue.
Prabhupada: I hesitate to say "they," (because) the Russian people are nice.
Prabhupada: The Party is dangerous. I've studied the Russians. They are nice.
Prabhupada: Yes, victimized. They have been suppressed by force, terrorism. Otherwise nice Russian people are as good as others. And they do not like this government. That's a fact. But what can be done? They are forced to accept. Nobody is happy. Everyone is morose.
Prabhupada: Yes. No freedom.
Ramesvara: No intellectual freedom.
Ramesvara: That's very well known.
Prabhupada: No, even physical. You cannot go out without government consent. And they don't allow, especially young men. They do not allow to go out of the country.
Ramesvara: No, I was reading to you that if they apply for leaving the country, then immediately there is a long delay.
Ramesvara: But during that delay they are forced to lose their job, so they have no income. Then people from outside Russia who are sympathizers start to send money, and the government takes sixty-five percent of it in taxes before the people can get it. So they torture them if they want to leave.
Prabhupada: Yes. Terrorism. Very dangerous. Now it is published in the paper how they exploit the people. And our India also thinking in terms of Russian philosophy. Lenin's philosophy.
Hari-sauri: They're not so successful here, though. The people are too pious to accept Communist philosophy so much here.
Prabhupada: Hm, yes. It will be difficult here.
Prabhupada: They are making... Therefore I was saying... The Russians, they have made a propaganda to show, but nobody purchases their literature. Nobody purchases, either educated or uneducated. Maybe few interested. But they are making vigorous propaganda to spread their literature. They have been unsuccessful.
Ramesvara: No one believes it. Whatever they write, no one believes that it is the truth.
Prabhupada: Yes. So their opening a showroom is one of the item of their propaganda. But we cannot make that, make an experiment. No, that is not possible.
Ramesvara: It is commonly known that the Russians are spending more money on national defense, weapons...
Ramesvara: ...guns, than anyone else in the world.
Ramesvara: They are building up huge arsenals of weapons.
Prabhupada: That is their only business. Plunder from everywhere and spend it for their own defense. The Jawaharlal Nehru and company, they supported Russia to save themselves from America. Otherwise there was no purpose.
Prabhupada: And actually India was saved on account of Russia. During the Pakistan and Hindustan fight, there was ninety percent chance that America will openly take part with the Pakistan. And because the Russians were there, seen in the Indian Ocean—they have come with their warfare materials—the Americans stopped, that "It is going to be great conflict." Otherwise that was the chance to take over India by the Pakistanis with American help. That was the plan. That is a great achievement of Indira Gandhi, that (s)he, tactfully showing herself in the side of Russia, (s)he separated Bangladesh from Pakistan, and Pakistan is physically finished, that great achievement, separated Bangladesh. Now Pakistan has no value.
Prabhupada: Pakistan is finished, because the Bangladesh was supplying jute, rice, pan, great business.
Ramesvara: The government of Bangladesh was just murdered.
Ramesvara: They were all murdered.
Prabhupada: It is due to this American CIA. Therefore I...
Ramesvara: Now they may again become lined up with Pakistan.
Prabhupada: That is politics. Once you become strong; once I become... That is struggle. It will go on. You cannot stop.
Ramesvara: It's also commonly known that in the West the banks supplied money to Lenin to fight his revolution. They have no discrimination. If it seems like it is a good chance for making interest...
Prabhupada: Therefore Hitler killed these Jews. They were financing against Germany. Otherwise he had no enmity with the Jews.
Prabhupada: And they were supplying. They want interest money—"Never mind against our country." Therefore Hitler decided, "Kill all the Jews."
Ramesvara: These banks in the West, they supported Lenin. They made it possible to finance his revolution.
Prabhupada: Yes. They have got money. The Jews have got money. They want to invest and get some profit. Their only interest is how to get money, no nationalism, no religion, nothing of the sort. Therefore it is not now; long, long ago... Therefore Shakespeare wrote "Shylock, the Jew."
Prabhupada: "One pound of flesh." The Jews were criticized long, long ago.
Ramesvara: America now has this policy that they will sell their guns to both sides.
Prabhupada: That is all right, because they are doing business. So I am shopkeeper. Anyone pays, I shall... That is good.
Ramesvara: But no discrimination.
Prabhupada: Why discrimination? I am selling. You come. Pay me. I shall give you.
Ramesvara: It's dangerous. They are promoting violence.
Prabhupada: That dangerous in every item. This Gandhi was also dangerous, although superficially nonviolent. Everyone is dangerous. Until one is devotee, he's dangerous in any position. He's dangerous. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. It is mental concoction that "This is good; this is bad." Everything is bad.
Hari-sauri: Part of their policy for that, though, was because they supported the Israelis, and then the Arabs started to squeeze them on the oil, so they had to get friendly with the Arabs again. So they started to supply them arms.
Prabhupada: Mano-dharma means once you accept, "Good," and next moment you reject it, "Bad." This is mano-dharma. So that is going on. And therefore we have taken this vow that "Whatever Krsna said, that is good, and everything bad. Bas." Our confusion is finished.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada? I had a question about the prasadam distribution money that I am hoping to get from the record sales.
Prabhupada: Why not?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Ramesvara: Big parades.
Prabhupada: But America has money. Here they have no money. So preference should be given in India. They're poor.
Ramesvara: We can take a little bit out for these festivals in America.
Prabhupada: Yes, if required, if required.
Ramesvara: If required.
Prabhupada: Just see. One family came, and I gave them little prasadam, dahl bhatta only. How nicely they took. Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. And they were fully satisfied. So in all our temple at least for ten men, twenty men.
Ramesvara: That the temple can support.
Ramesvara: But I'm thinking of, say, a big festival like Ratha-yatra. They want to distribute prasadam. Maybe we can take a few... Little bit out.
Prabhupada: Yes, if required. Yes.
Ramesvara: If required. That's the point.
Prabhupada: But this prasadam distribution should be introduced very vigorously.
Satsvarupa: Then if they say, "You're not doing anything," you can show so easily.
Prabhupada: Don't you see? You have no eyes? Who is publishing these books? If you have education, read it. Simply jumping like monkey is good, do you think? Here is intelligence and appreciation. Do you mean to say...? The monkey is very busy. Who likes that? After all, it is monkey. So your doing something is like jumping of the monkey and dogs. Who likes it? And you are simply creating problem by your so-called busy-ness. Better you stop and read our books and be intelligent. Lazy mischief-maker, it is better than busy mischief maker. Busy mischief maker means he'll commit more mischief. Just like monkey. What is the use of his becoming busy? He'll simply create mischief. So better... An lazy mischief maker is better than the busy mischief maker.
Ramesvara: Maybe you should just read some of those letters.
Prabhupada: Vaisyas also. Sudras also.
Satsvarupa: You were saying that last night in your talk.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is required. But he must be a Vaisnava. That's all. Actually none of us belong to any group. They are servant of Krsna, and for Krsna's sake he can act as a brahmana, as a ksatriya, as a vaisya or a sudra. It doesn't matter. It is all Krsna's service. Just like he is giving massage. That does not mean he's a sudra. This is actual sudra's business, servant. But he's not a sudra. Similarly, we can act for Krsna in any position. We do not belong to this material occupation or platform. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. This is to be dwelled on.(?) He's above all this nonsense. Brahma-bhuyaya means liberated. Jivan-mukta sa ucyate. Jivan-mukta means he may act in this life as a ksatriya, brahmana, sudra. It doesn't matter. But he's liberated. He's not going to take birth again. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. A sudra cannot get that position. So try to understand our philosophy thoroughly and distribute it. Janma sarthaka kari' kara paropakara. At least nobody can defeat our philosophy in the whole world. That position we have.
Ramesvara: You say that Krsna is the same, the devotee is the same, and the business of Krsna is the same. So...
Ramesvara: When Krsna was here He was making arrangements for the Pandavas to rule the kingdom because they were devotees. So that same business is...
Prabhupada: That is the whole scheme of Kuruksetra fight—"Wipe out these rascals." Krsna was not interested to rule over, but He took the guidance—"Yes, I'll guide you." That's all. What Krsna will do with the kingdom? Ramacandra, He finished Ravana's whole family, but He has no interest to rule over the... He installed Vibhisana—"You rule over." That's all. Why Krsna should be interested in this ruling? He's the ruler of the whole situation.
Ramesvara: But it helps all the citizens if the devotees are ruling the kingdom.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is wanted. Therefore, if we become strong, we shall take over charge of government. It is not that we are entering into politics. We must! That is also one of the items of Krsna consciousness. People are misguided. Soce tato vimukha-cetasah. They are being induced to remain in ignorance. Therefore we want, make our plan. Soce: "I am thinking very seriously how to save them." Prahlada Maharaja says. That is Vaisnava's business. Para-duhkha-duhkhi. "They are suffering." That is Vaisnava, real Vaisnava, not that "Now I am realized soul, sit down and..." That is also good, but better business is to think for others. That is stated in the Bhagavatam. Ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesu... [Bg 18.68], na ca tasmad. If you want to be really very dear to Krsna, you must preach this philosophy vigorously, not that "I have got it. Who is going to take so much botheration? Let me sit down." Krsna... Who can be better devotee than Arjuna? And why did he... He was, rather, avoiding the botheration. Krsna said, "No. You must take the botheration." He chastised him, kutas tva kasmalam idam visame. "Rascal, what is this? You must take. You have to take this botheration." On this principle, at the age of seventy years, I took all the botheration—"All right." The other friends were thinking that "This man is going to die, and he is going to preach." (laughing) They said like that. And "All right. I shall die, I shall die for Krsna's cause." So we have to face so many problems, botherations. That is natural. We should not be afraid of this.
Ramesvara: We are on Krsna's side.
Prabhupada: No. This worldwide movement is a history. People have forgotten Krsna or God. Is it not?
Prabhupada: They simply..., a official church and temple, and they have no serious attachment, simply kaitava. Dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. That is another kind of cheating. He's not religious, but he's posing himself: "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." That's all. He does not know what is religion. This is going on. Religion means direct touch with God. That is religion. So they have no idea of God. How there can be religion? Here is religion. We do not do anything which is not in interest of Krsna. That is religion.
Devotees: Jaya Srila Prabhupada. [break]
Prabhupada: ...kicked out. They have no religion, simply bogus. There is no religion in the world at the present time. All bogus.
Ramesvara: But in past ages there is many... There's history of many Kali-yugas, but this Krsna con..., Hare Krsna movement, is unique.
Prabhupada: Yes, it must be unique because it's genuine. It is not cheating.
Prabhupada: Jaya. (end)
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