Morning Walk

June 4, 1976, Los Angeles
(in car)
Prabhupada: ...you say everything is created, he is created, this rascal who is saying there is no creator, he's also created. So where he gets this idea, there is no creator?
Tamala Krsna: His mentality is that of an animal. So less intelligent.
Prabhupada: Animal also knows that he's created by another dog. Otherwise why the little, what is called, cab, puppy, goes up to the mother?
Ramesvara: They don't have..., the reason they don't have an idea is because before you came to America, the understanding of the science of God was presented on a kindergarten level, the Bible. So it did not satisfy their scientific mind. So because before you came to give them the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam, they had not information, and they did not accept the Christian version.
Prabhupada: No, apart from Christian or Hindu, the general mass of people, how they can say that there is no creator? From common sense?
Ramesvara: They are accepting authority, and so they say...
Prabhupada: Apart from authority, from practical experience....
Tamala Krsna: They are fools.
Prabhupada: ...how one can...? Eh?
Rsabhadeva: They are trying to avoid their responsibility to that creator. They don't want to accept.
Prabhupada: You can avoid the creator, but you cannot say there is no creator.
Tamala Krsna: It means they're totally ignorant, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: You accept the authority of the creator or not, that is your business. But you cannot say there is no creator. Just like there are many outlaws. They say also, "We don't care for the government."
Tamala Krsna: But there is a government.
Prabhupada: But there is a government. You don't like or don't care, that is your business, but there is a government. How you can deny it? That we shall see later on, how you can neglect government. But there is a government. You have to accept.
Ramesvara: I think it is just in the last few hundred years that these scientists have been given so much prestige and they're making so much propaganda. It's just a recent thing.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, formerly it was not such a great majority of people who thought like this; it was just a few.
Prabhupada: So we have to challenge all these rascals.
Tamala Krsna: You are giving us the weapons with which to challenge.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Transcendental knowledge. Now the Russians will fall also if our books are introduced there.
Prabhupada: If actually they are after something reality, they must accept. If they are actually after something reality. It is natural. They have been disgusted with this Christianity. Useless, that's all. But if they are actually serious, then they'll accept knowledge. (japa)
Tamala Krsna: [break]...exhibit of Bharadvaja's in the temple of the Damodara and mother Yasoda.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: It is nicely done?
Prabhupada: Hmm. (japa) [break] ...that he is not my father, that is not possible.
Ramesvara: They say that the atom is the source of everything.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Ramesvara: They say that the atom, the little particle, is eternal, original.
Prabhupada: But you rascal, you are not coming from atom; you are coming from your father. That is my reply. You rascal, you are coming from your father, not from the atom.
Tamala Krsna: How do you say everything comes from the atom?
Ramesvara: Originally, they say...
Prabhupada: Originally, go to hell. (laughs) First of all, take your case. "Originally." You do not know your case and you are going to originally. Hele data nakhe yuce.(?) You know this philosophy? Hele, there was some water snake, they have no poison. One snake charmer, he cannot catch even that. And he's trying to catch cobra. So first of all answer your case, then go to "originally."
Ramesvara: That's what you said yesterday in discussing that philosopher Skinner. He said first we control nature, then we can control ourselves. And you replied, if you can't control yourself, how you can control such a big thing like nature?
Prabhupada: That is the defect. They are tiny, insignificant creature and talking big, big things. This is the defect of modern civilization.
Tamala Krsna: Like a child trying to catch the moon.
Prabhupada: He has no importance, and he's talking big, big things. The same philosophy. Hele data bai nakhe yuce.(?) He cannot catch even nonpoisonous snake, and he's saying, "I'll catch up a cobra."
Tamala Krsna: Like a small child trying to catch the moon.
Prabhupada: Yes. (japa) All these rascals should be approached that, first, "Whether you have come from your.... Is your father monkey? You say that from monkey man has come. You have come from monkey or from your father?" Ask him this question. Naturally he will be ashamed to say "Yes, I have come from some monkey." (laughs) Unless he is a great fool, he will not say it. Then your father comes from his father, from his father.... Where the monkey comes? Is there in the history of your family that your forefather...
Tamala Krsna: No, we are studying the bones. That's what they say.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Tamala Krsna: We are digging up bones.
Prabhupada: That also they cannot say, because we Hindus, we burn the bones. Where you get the bones?
Tamala Krsna: No, but there's some groups that did not do that.
Prabhupada: No, some group, not. As a general practice, all Hindus they burn, from time immemorial.
Tamala Krsna: But I mean, there are other people in other parts of the world, like in Africa, they found bones from five million years ago, and they say that it's the missing link bones.
Prabhupada: Missing, why missing?
Tamala Krsna: Well they couldn't figure it out until they found these bones.
Prabhupada: That means they couldn't. Still, he says. Just see, he has brought as if he was dog, the rascal. The dog is prohibited. Man is.... [break] (walk continues on beach) ...They have got?
Ramesvara: Other theories
Radhavallabha: Theories?
Ramesvara: The scientists.
Prabhupada: Scientists or philosophers, their only business is to defy God. All demons.
Bali-mardana: Actually, Prabhupada, the people are turning away from the scientists now, because they have seen that their promises have not brought anything.
Prabhupada: And simply, if we can expose that they never went to the moon planet, their life will be finished.
Devotees: Jaya, haribol!
Tamala Krsna: How can we expose that, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: To expose.... They could not answer this simple question, why Sunday first and Monday second? They could not understand, these rascals, I have asked so many. Can you answer this? Can you answer, can any of you, why Sunday first? All over the world, they accept Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and Saturday last. Why? Answer this. Is there anyone?
Hrdayananda: What is the answer, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: The answer is sun planet first, then moon planet.
Devotees: Oh, jaya!
Prabhupada: And the sun planet is ninety-three million miles, and according to Bhagavata, the moon is 1,600,000 miles away from sun. So I have calculated the other day that it takes ninety days, no?
Hari-sauri: No, six or seven months.
Prabhupada: Six or seven months it takes to go to the moon planet. How they have gone in four days? They have never gone.
Devotees: Oh, jaya!
Tamala Krsna: How did you get that calculation, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Tamala Krsna: How did you make that calculation?
Prabhupada: Calculation, they have calculation that sun planet is ninety-three million miles from, that is, they have accepted. I also accept it. I say the moon planet is 1,600,000 miles still further. So you cannot go to the sun planet, how can go to the moon planet?
Devotees: Jaya.
Candanacarya: Today is the day of scandals. These days, there are so many scandals in the United States.
Prabhupada: Ask them. If they say moon planet is first, why not Monday first? Why Sunday first? That's a fact. Sun planet first, then moon, then Mars. Ravi, Soma, Mangala, Bhu. That is the calculation.
Tamala Krsna: That means that all the countries are cooperating together to cheat the people, because they're all...
Prabhupada: No, no. They have taken from the Vedic literature.
Bali-mardana: No, they are right, Sunday, Monday.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: No, I mean to say that everyone is saying that they have gone to the moon, that means they are all together cheating.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Radhavallabha: The scientists have got radiotelescopes. They bounce the sound vibration off the planet, and depending on how long it takes the sound to come back, that's how far away it is.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Radhavallabha: They bounce sound vibration off a planet, and depending on how long it takes the vibration to come back, that's how far away the planet is. So they've calculated the sun to be further in that way.
Prabhupada: First of all, answer why Sunday first. Then talk of all nonsense.
Candanacarya: Mars is after the moon?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Candanacarya: Mars is after the moon?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Candanacarya: Because in French, Tuesday is the word for Mars.
Prabhupada: And Saturday is last. Saturn is last.
Yadubara: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Each planet is 1,600,000 miles away from one another.
Tamala Krsna: 1,600,000.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yadubara: They say they went 250,000 miles twice.
Prabhupada: They say, let them say, first of all answer "Why Sunday first?"
Tamala Krsna: What about these pictures we have seen on the television showing them jumping on the moon?
Prabhupada: That you can make in laboratory. That is not very difficult.
Tamala Krsna: Colossal hoax.
Mahendra: ...pictures are like the King Kong movie.
Prabhupada: Yes. In King Kong movie they made cotton as cloud. (laughs). They can do everything in the laboratory.
Yadubara: They are making that movie again, Srila Prabhupada. Spending millions to make it again.
Prabhupada: Which movie?
Yadubara: King Kong.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Ramesvara: They have got some gigantic King Kong figure. It moves like a gigantic doll. Actually, to make a movie now they spend maybe ten, fifteen million dollars for one movie. [break]
Prabhupada: They cannot cleanse nowadays?
Hari-sauri: They made a movie called "2001," and in that they had shots of men on different planets. It looked just like the moon shots. It was very..., just the same.
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, it is very difficult to convince the people that they have not gone to the moon. I mean, that's a good logic, but they'll think that's very childish for us to say "Sunday first, Monday."
Prabhupada: Well, let them remain as child.
Candanacarya: Srila Prabhupada once said that if the moon is dirt and dust, how is it that it reflects the light of the sun so much that it lights up the whole planet?
Prabhupada: Yes. The common sense. They have lost their common sense.
Candanacarya: It's so shiny that it lights up the whole earth planet at night.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Candanacarya: How can dirt reflect light like that?
Prabhupada: That was my first question.
Tamala Krsna: I think that we should write a, we should publish a little book on this, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: If you can.
Tamala Krsna: Maybe one of the scientists.
Candanacarya: There are many scientists who agree.
Prabhupada: Now our scientists are challenging, Svarupa Damodara and others.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. They could scientifically publish a book.
Candanacarya: There are scientists in England who agree that they didn't go to the planet.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Candanacarya: There are some scientists in England who agree with you that they did not go to the moon.
Prabhupada: Yes, they did not. Simply propaganda. (japa) [break] Freedom.
Hari-sauri: It's just like you said in the BTG.
Prabhupada: Equal rights. The rascal father has left, and poor mother is carrying the burden.
Ramesvara: She chanted Hare Krsna just by seeing us.
Prabhupada: That's all right. There is no other way. We are the only shelter for these forlorn women.
Tamala Krsna: We have to give them shelter.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, certainly.
Radhavallabha: Srila Prabhupada, scientists have this theory called use and disuse. They would say that these birds here that have the long beaks for eating fish, originally, they did not have that, but after many, many millions of years of trying to catch fish, gradually their beaks became longer. And they would say that would be the origin of that species.
Prabhupada: Huh? What is that?
Hrdayananda: He's saying that because the fish are trying to catch fish, therefore...
Ramesvara: The birds are trying to catch the fish.
Hrdayananda: Therefore a beak comes out. (laughter)
Bali-mardana: No, no. That's not the theory. The theory is that the ones with the long beaks are able to catch the fish. Therefore, the other ones die off.
Hrdayananda: Therefore they get the long beaks?
Bali-mardana: Just from mutation.
Radhavallabha: That's not. It's another theory.
Hrdayananda: Madness.
Candanacarya: It's another theory.
Prabhupada: Hmm? So that's all right. If we are eager for Krsna, we shall get Krsna.
Devotees: Jaya.
Tamala Krsna: So we agree with that theory.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hrdayananda: It has been given by Krsna because he always wanted to catch fish.
Hari-sauri: They used to give us a simple example at school. They said that the people that lived in Mexico City...
Prabhupada: No, no, we accept that. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante [Bg. 8.6]. If, at the time of death, he thinks that "If I would have possessed a beak," then he gets the life. That's all. (laughter) That's a fact.
Radhavallabha: They say that this is the way the different types of bodies come into being, that by the desire...
Prabhupada: That we say also. There is no difficulty. Because at the time of death, whatever you are thinking, you'll get the next body. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita.
Radhavallabha: They say, though, that this is how the different bodies come into being.
Prabhupada: Yes, we say also.
Candanacarya: But can any body be generated from the imagination, any kind of...
Prabhupada: It is not this imagination. I wanted that facility. So my subtle mind is wanting that. So nature is supplying: "All right, you get it."
Hari-sauri: We don't create the bodies. We desire them, and the material nature has created already.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Radhavallabha: Their theory is that these bodies never before existed, but by the desire of the living entity, that certain type of body was created.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That means nature is above. He wanted that body; nature has given. Is that correct?
Radhavallabha: No, not exactly.
Prabhupada: Then what is that?
Radhavallabha: That they want a particular facility, and...
Prabhupada: And nature supplies the body, that's all. Simple thing.
Ramesvara: But they do not put a limit, 8,400,000. They think that it can keep going on increasing, increasing.
Prabhupada: Then let it go on. That's all right. What is wrong?
Candanacarya: By their theory, though, a human being would be able to generate wings or a beak like a bird.
Prabhupada: Yes, there are human beings who can fly in the sky. Siddhaloka, Siddhaloka. There is a planet called Siddhaloka. There the human beings from one planet to another go.
Hari-sauri: They have wings?
Prabhupada: No wings.
Ramesvara: The Gandharvas have wings.
Candanacarya: Why do you need wings if you can fly? Also Garuda has a beak. Where are we going now?
Hari-sauri: Prabhupada said in Hawaii there's no.... (pause)
Prabhupada: The old man, her father?
Hari-sauri: I hope so. (pause) [break]...
Prabhupada: Send to Svarupa Damodara, he has got also.
Tamala Krsna: Monday. Sunday, Monday?
Prabhupada: Yes. Days are in this order. So naturally one has to conclude that sun first, moon second. Naturally.
Radhavallabha: They will say, "Who has set up the order?"
Prabhupada: Anyway, you accept it. All over the world, nobody says that Monday first. Then?
Candanacarya: Is this also in Sanskrit language? Sunday, Monday.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Ask all scientists this simple question. Why, all over the world, Sunday, sun first and moon second? Why? And Saturday last. All of you could not answer this question. (devotees laugh)
Tamala Krsna: You have stumped us.
Prabhupada: (Bengali verse) Bado bado banare, bado bado peta, lanka dingahe manamara henta(?). "Big, big monkey, big, big belly. Ceylon jumping, melancholy."
Hrdayananda: We are all big monkeys.
Candanacarya: How are they able to perpetuate such an enormous hoax?
Prabhupada: Enormous hoax for the fools, not for the intelligent persons.
Hari-sauri: They never fooled you, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hari-sauri: They never fooled you. (Prabhupada laughs)
Candanacarya: That means that some people must know the actual truth about the hoax in the American system, so if we can find them...
Prabhupada: So you are knowing that. State it.
Ramesvara: In other words, is it, is it that there is deliberate trick? It is deliberate.
Prabhupada: Ahh, it may not be deliberate, but they are fools. They are talking nonsense. That's all.
Tamala Krsna: But what about the people, like the men on the ship who say they have jumped on the moon? Are they lying and being paid off, or are they just.... What, I mean what is the actual position? Some men are getting on a television saying, "We landed there, it was like this, it was like that."
Prabhupada: No, I saw that television, at that time, the whole thing broke wrong. There was a press representative. He protested. I was protesting from the beginning, but they could not show how they jumped, at the last. Going, going, going, but at the time of jumping, melancholy. Ceylon jumping melancholy.
Tamala Krsna: But I mean they do, these men who are space travelers, they say "We did land on the moon." Now are they lying?
Prabhupada: No, they, but the television was showing. They could not show this.
Tamala Krsna: Jumping on the moon?
Prabhupada: That was not shown.
Candanacarya: They may be hypnotized also.
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada said they'd gone to Rahu.
Ramesvara: They have got that dust. They say they got that from another planet.
Prabhupada: Dust you can take it from here, from this beach.
Ramesvara: So then they're lying.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: That means they're deliberately cheating, knowingly. And the government is backing them.
Prabhupada: That is your business.
Ramesvara: What is the purpose of the cheating?
Candanacarya: Prabhupada said to ask for taxes.
Prabhupada: Labha, puja, pratistha. These three things are materially wanted. Some material profit, some reputation and some.... Eh?
Devotees: Distinction.
Prabhupada: Adoration. These are the material demands.
Hari-sauri: Because, originally, it was built up as a big thing between Russia and America, who would get to the moon first.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now they are shaking hands, and none of them has gone. "I thank you."
Tamala Krsna: It's like the emperor's new clothes.
Prabhupada: "You failed, my dear sir. I failed also. Come on."
Tamala Krsna: There's a story, "The Emperor's Clothes," "The Emperor's New Clothes." There were these tailors, and they made believe that they were making clothes for the emperor, but actually they were doing nothing, but they were making the motions. So they, everybody was saying what nice clothes and finally...
Candanacarya: No, they said, any intelligent, only intelligent people will see the clothes.
Hrdayananda: And someone who's a fool, he cannot see it.
Ramesvara: Magic cloth.
Candanacarya: So they were getting much money for making nothing.
Hrdayananda: The emperor went out naked in the street, and everyone was afraid to admit that there was no clothes.
Ramesvara: Because they would be labeled fool. So finally one boy said, "But the emperor has no clothes."
Prabhupada: Yes, there is a nice story in this connection. There was one Gopal Ban. So he was very cunning fellow. In the Muhammadan period in Bengal. So the Mohammedan Nawab asked him, "Gopal Ban, can you prepare a Mahabharata in my name?" "Oh, yes!" So, "I'll engage so many panditas, and they will make a Mahabharata, your activities, your glories, everything. So give me one hundred thousand rupees, just begin." He was taking money, taking money, "Yes, it is going on, going on." "Then when it will be published?" "Yes, just last few days more. Now, sir, everything is prepared. So the one thing is, you have to give me information how many husbands you have got, your wife, huh? How many husbands your wife has got?" That is very insulting. "What, you nonsense, you take." "No, that is the main feature of Mahabharata. Draupadi had five husbands, so how many husbands your wife has got? Tell me that." Then, "No, no, I don't want that. I am the only husband." "Then how can you write Mahabharata?" (laughter) "I don't want." "All right. If you want Mahabharata you must tell how many your wife has got husbands." That he cannot say. So Mahabharata finished.
Tamala Krsna: And he kept the money.
Prabhupada: Yes. That already, he took that "I have to steal to pay so much money. Give me." That's all right. So these are, scientists are doing like that. At the end, how many husbands your wife has got.
Tamala Krsna: Scientists are doing the same thing.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Tamala Krsna: Taking money.
Radhavallabha: They have one argument, that during solar eclipse, the moon appears to pass in front of the sun, between the sun and the earth.
Hrdayananda: Prabhupada explains that. It is the Rahu planet.
Radhavallabha: But they are viewing the moon. The moon is right there, they can see it. And all of a sudden it goes in front of the sun.
Prabhupada: Huh? What is that? Moon is there, sun is there. Now which first? That is the question.
Radhavallabha: They will say that they've observed in their telescopes...,
Prabhupada: They'll say..., whatever they'll say it is all right. First of all, say why Sunday first. Then talk all nonsense. First of all, answer this. You cannot say "We believe that Sunday first." What is the fact? Why do you bring moon, Monday? Why not bring...?
Radhavallabha: They will say it is arbitrary order.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Radhavallabha: Then they will get back to their argument.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Arbitrary order is not science. That you cannot.
Candanacarya: How can it be arbitrary if every culture in the history of the planet has accepted that order? How can it be arbitrary?
Radhavallabha: That doesn't matter it's not arbitrary. Do you accept?
Hrdayananda: Radhavallabha is a rascal. (laughter)
Mahendra: Thirty or forty years also, Srila Prabhupada, one man made a little plaster body of a human being, and he planted it in his back yard in England. And then he dug it up and said, "Oh, look, I've found the oldest man in history!" And all the scientists came and said, "Oh, yes, this is the oldest man in history." And for twenty or thirty years many men got their Ph.D.s by writing about how this plaster was the oldest man in history.
Prabhupada: Yes, such fools are leaders.
Tamala Krsna: That is the business of dogs, digging up bones. (laughter)
Radhavallabha: Srila Prabhupada, by calculating the movements of the moon, scientists can predict years in advance when the solar eclipse will be.
Prabhupada: That is not their invention. That is already there. (pause) (walking) We shall go further? No? (japa)
Hari-sauri: One thing is, Srila Prabhupada, if they've wrongly calculated the distance of the moon, then how is it that they're able to calculate these eclipses and whatever?
Prabhupada: That I do not know. First of all, answer this. Yes. Yes. They say the moon planet first. I say, no, sun planet. First of all...
Trivikrama:(?) But they can see the moon comes in front of the sun.
Candanacarya: This is some other planet.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Candanacarya: That must be some other planet.
Prabhupada: Which one?
Candanacarya: This one that comes in front of the sun.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, all over the world, they accept Sunday first.
Mahendra: All of their successes are accidental. Just like they discovered the planet called Pluto. The way it was discovered was one man recognized that there was a fluctuation in the orbit of the planet Neptune, and so he made some calculations and figured that the fluctuations were caused by another planet that must be further away than Neptune that no one has discovered yet. So he made many calculations and figured out where the planet should be, how big it should be, how much it should weigh, how far away it was. So then he told other scientists about it, and they looked in their telescopes, and sure enough, there it was. But it wasn't as big as he said, nor was it as heavy as he said, nor was it as far away as he said, and when they rechecked the data they found that the orbit of the original planet wasn't really wrong either. So all of his calculations were wrong, but still the planet was there. So somehow or other he stumbled upon it, but all of his calculations to find it were absolutely wrong. That's the planet called Pluto.
Prabhupada: Recently there was an propaganda. That comet?
Tamala Krsna: Yes, it would come and destroy,
Prabhupada: There was no comet.
Tamala Krsna: They said it would destroy...
Prabhupada: Destroy...
Hrdayananda: They predicted a comet that never came.
Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, in the Fifth Canto you wrote that the planets are being pulled in their orbits by chariots. Just like there is a description of the sun planet, and there is very elaborate...
Prabhupada: That is movement. Now, according to their calculation, sun is fixed up, but according to our calculation it is moving. That is the difference.
Ramesvara: And it is actually being pulled by a chariot and horses.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, it is moving. Either chariot or on leg. That does not.... It is moving. Moving is the point. Either on chariot or on leg, that doesn't matter. Sun is moving. But they say sun is fixed up.
Trivikrama: They say it's moving, but not the way we say, around the earth.
Prabhupada: No, they do not say.
Trivikrama: They say it has it's own...
Prabhupada: No, no. Sun is fixed up.
Ramesvara: It is moving by manipulation of air, just like our airplane is moving by manipulating the air.
Prabhupada: First of all, solve this question, that how...?
Radhavallabha: You had us on that one.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Radhavallabha: You got us on that one.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Tamala Krsna: He said you have caught us. We cannot give a reply.
Prabhupada: Yes, big, big belly. And what is that, Bhargava, no, what is his name? Bhagavat?
Devotees: Bhagavat.
Prabhupada: He has got big belly. (laughter) And Brahmananda. Gargamuni also. Acyutananda, yes. In India?
Devotee: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: These karmis and their sputniks, they're claiming they're going to heavenly planets, all these planets all over the universe, but you tell us that they can't actually go to these places.
Prabhupada: Yes, if you have got suitable machine you can go.
Bhudhara: Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhudhara: They now say that they're going to attempt to create a planet that has perfect air, and trees, and they're only charging...
Prabhupada: Another bogus. Another bluff. So be satisfied with their bluffs. That's all. (break, conversation continues in car)
Ramesvara: The sun planet is seated on a chariot, and it is pulled by horses? They take it to be mythology.
Prabhupada: Why?
Ramesvara: They cannot imagine how horses can be flying in the sky.
Tamala Krsna: And pulling an entire planet.
Prabhupada: Because you cannot imagine it, there is no such thing? What is the value of your imagination?
Tamala Krsna: But you just said by your imagination you can grow a beak.
Prabhupada: If some horses can fly in the sky, what your imagination will check it?
Ramesvara: But they say that the planet is so heavy and so big it is not possible for a mortal...
Prabhupada: That's all right. The planet is.... How it is floating in the air?
Ramesvara: They have an explanation for that.
Prabhupada: No. You do not know the explanation. There are so many other things. Just like we say there is ocean of milk, ocean of liquor, ocean of oil.
Ramesvara: No, all of that they take to be...
Tamala Krsna: Mythology.
Prabhupada: But why? Your imagination. You have not gone throughout the whole universe. You cannot say. You are imperfect.
Tamala Krsna: But they say neither you have gone, so how can you know...
Prabhupada: No, I have got authority, you have got no authority.
Tamala Krsna: Well, simply some story books, they say.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Whatever it may be, I can present some literature, but you have nothing. You rascal. (laughs) Whatever it may be, I have got something, but you have nothing.
Tamala Krsna: I remember studying in college about this, that we were studying Indian art, and they showed pictures of people on other planets and all these things, the demigods, and the teacher said "These are mythologies of India."
Ramesvara: Just like the Greek mythologies.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, we have got books, and these books are authorized, they are accepted by authorities, but what you have got?
Tamala Krsna: They have their fairy tales, they call it, imaginary tales.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, we have got something. I may believe it. That's all. You believe your imagination, we believe this. That's all. Finished.
Tamala Krsna: Ours are better.
Prabhupada: Your imagination is also rascaldom, and if ours, it is rascaldom, that's all right, you are rascal, I am rascal. Why do you pose yourself you are learned?
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that's the point.
Prabhupada: Don't pose yourself that you are learned.
Ramesvara: They say that for thousands and thousands of years man has believed in God, and as a result...
Prabhupada: That I am speaking daily, you must believe in God, the creator.
Ramesvara: They say that before the scientific revolution...
Prabhupada: There is no scientific. It is all rascal revolution. If you cannot answer these questions that you are created by your father, so why there should be no original creator? You cannot say that you have dropped from the sky.
Tamala Krsna: No, originally, everything came, man came from the monkey, monkey came from another animal, and everything came from an atom.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Come to practical, that you are created by your father. That you have to accept. So similarly, everything we see.... This car is created by someone. Everything we see, created. So how can you say there is no creator? Within our experience we see everything is created by someone.
Ramesvara: Creative energy is there.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the fact is...
Ramesvara: Impersonal.
Prabhupada: Not impersonal, personal.
Tamala Krsna: But then who created the creator?
Prabhupada: Huh? That we shall see, but first of all you have to accept there is a creator.
Ramesvara: They will agree, some people will agree...
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Ramesvara: ...that there is energy for creating.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be.
Ramesvara: But they do not give one person the credit.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Just like this manufacturer of this car, he's not handling this creation by his own hand. He has got money, energy. He pays the mechanical person to create, but ultimately it is Ford. Ford is not creating everything. Ford's money, Ford's employees, workers, they are creating, but the name is Ford. Similarly, everything is being created by God. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. And He has got so many working hands. That is also.... Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Multi-energies, they are doing like that.... But He is supervising, "Have you done this?" "Yes." "That's all. Go on." So how can you go beyond your experience? Everything is created. A child may think, "How this car is created?" But it is, factually it is created. He cannot imagine how this nice car is created. Why child? Even elderly persons in a nondeveloped country, they'll be surprised how this car is created. They cannot do it.
Tamala Krsna: No. That means they're ignorant.
Prabhupada: That's all. So you cannot imagine that the sky is created, this water is created, that is beyond your experience.
Tamala Krsna: Because you cannot do it, you think no one can do it.
Prabhupada: You cannot do it. But why another cannot do it? As I see, I cannot manufacture the car, but somebody else can do it. Similarly, the whole big thing, cosmic manifestation, I cannot do it, but somebody may do it.
Tamala Krsna: They are small-minded.
Ramesvara: It's like you were saying for this philosopher, Sartre. We see our practical experience is that someone has less intelligence, someone has more intelligence. So we should understand that God means...
Prabhupada: The ultimate intelligence. That's all.
Ramesvara: So now these governments are very rascal. They are cheating the people deliberately.
Prabhupada: Well, government means combination of cheaters like you. What do you expect more than that? If you are cheaters, then you go to the government. Someway or other get vote. Bribe or something nefarious you do and get vote, and they become cheap government man. And then do your business. Because you are cheater, you have come to the post of prestige and power. What you will do? You know simply only cheat.
Tamala Krsna: So he'll cheat more.
Prabhupada: That's all. You have now got the power. You cheat more.
Ramesvara: The people in America that claim that the American government is controlled by Communists. They say that these big, big bankers, the very rich, rich people, that they are actually..., their theory is Communist government, or, not Communist, dictatorship, and that they are secretly manipulating.
Prabhupada: What is their aim?
Ramesvara: Power.
Prabhupada: Power..., anyone who has got money, he has got power. That is open secret. What is the secret? (laughs) If you have got money, you have got all power.
Ramesvara: They're very expert in making the people think that this is democracy and that the people have power. (static)
Prabhupada: If you can purchase vote by paying money, then where is democracy?
Ramesvara: Just like one of their arguments is that these rich bankers, they can control how much money is being printed.
Prabhupada: Yes, suppose I stand for presidency, and I take money from bank and bribe and get vote.
Ramesvara: So they can actually create, by their control, a depression.
Prabhupada: Yes, money can buy. The real thing is money. That is stated in the Bhagavata. Money is the criterion in the Kali-yuga. If you have got money, then you don't require anything; you can purchase anything.
Ramesvara: Purchase justice.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, anything. That is stated in the Bhagavata. So therefore people are trying to get money somehow or other. Then he knows, "I get all power." The present struggle is everyone is trying to get more, more, more, more money. Because everyone knows if I get money then I.... (static) Just like the Beatles and others. Actually what they have got qualification? They have got money. (static) That's all. What qualification? Singer. Singer, according to Vedic culture, third-class, fourth-class man.
Tamala Krsna: Sudra.
Hari-sauri: Most of these famous guys, they are all really the lowest grade people as well. Very low grade.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, this John Lennon, how he dares to photograph naked with his lover? How lowest class man he is, that he has no shame even. And he's also big man. Press reporters go to take his opinion on certain subject matters. They do not know where I am going to take opinion. What is the value of this man? But people are after money. Why? "I have got money." That's all.
Devotee: They hold great sway with the general public as well.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: One of the reasons why they did not want John Lennon to be allowed to stay in the United States is because they said that he had too much influence with the young people.
Prabhupada: Yes, he spoiled these. They are already spoiled, and (static) that the government has done nice thing. What is his value? But because he has got money (static) popularity, he has become big man.
Ramesvara: So there is this theory that there is a conspiracy all over the world that the rich men to control.
Prabhupada: That is, we say. If you have got money, you can make conspiracy or anything, whatever you like. Conspiracy I cannot make, I have no money, I cannot make conspiracy. But if I have got money, I can develop a conspiracy with my money. That one man asked, "Have you got any intelligence?" The man began to.... "Let me see." "What is that?" "I am seeing my pocket." "Why pocket?" "Intelligence means pocket." If there is money in my pocket, then there is intelligence. Otherwise, there is no intelligence. And Canakya Pandita also said, daridra-doso guna-rasir nasi. A man may be very, very big, qualified man, but if he's poor, everything's finished. Daridra-doso guna-rasir nasi.
Ramesvara: So when they come to our temples and they see that the temple is very opulent, then they think we are intelligent.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, they are more and more now.
Ramesvara: The church does this.
Tamala Krsna: More and more our society is getting respect because of the big buildings.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Ramesvara: New York.
Tamala Krsna: That's why, I think your Guru Maharaja was in favor like that.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, he said that potthor katha ke usa cane gauri ber katha sundari(?) If you remain poor, then nobody will be...
Ramesvara: And this diorama project will also give us a lot of respect.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We have got many things, stock. We shall exhibit gradually. We have got many things in stock.
Tamala Krsna: Many new ideas.
Prabhupada: First of all, I started the book. That is, by Krsna's grace, it is becoming successful. Then diorama. Then I shall give next idea.
Tamala Krsna: This diorama is a major idea.
Prabhupada: (laughs)
Ramesvara: I brought the Time magazine people to see it. They were so impressed they wanted to come when the museum is open, to make a story.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Ramesvara: They never saw anything like it.
Prabhupada: Deal with them very nicely. We get publicity.
Ramesvara: It's very costly.
Prabhupada: Never mind. Cost, Krsna will send money.
Tamala Krsna: This project here will cost, how much? About seventy...
Ramesvara: The actual project, without considering how much the devotees live on, forty thousand dollars.
Prabhupada: Never mind.
Ramesvara: That's the budget for the project, not counting the devotee maintenance.
Tamala Krsna: More than that.
Prabhupada: Never mind. You can you can raise that four times price.
Tamala Krsna: So we don't mind the cost?
Prabhupada: No.
Tamala Krsna: And the BBT is paying part of the...
Prabhupada: And at least, by tickets, people will pay ten dollars.
Ramesvara: Yes, that's Bharadvaja's idea, to tickets.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Otherwise, how we will raise the money? Book Fund cannot give.
Tamala Krsna: The Book Fund has been giving one half...
Ramesvara: But now...
Prabhupada: That can be given as loan, not for...
Tamala Krsna: As loan, the whole thing...
Ramesvara: Originally you told me wherever they go, the temple will pay fifty percent and the BBT will pay fifty percent.
Prabhupada: No, that is loan.
Tamala Krsna: It's got to be a loan.
Prabhupada: BBT is, our policy is fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for temple. Nothing else.
Tamala Krsna: Strict.
Ramesvara: But that fifty percent for temple is only as loan.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Except in India (laughs), then it is gift.
Tamala Krsna: Because we are rich Americans.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is contribution to your Guru Maharaja.
Tamala Krsna: Right.
Ramesvara: (laughs) Jaya.
Tamala Krsna: That is our guru-daksina.
Ramesvara: There is just one problem, Srila Prabhupada. If the temple thinks that they are going to have to pay for the entire project, it is so costly that they don't want to pay so much. They cannot afford. That's why you originally...
Prabhupada: If they cannot pay, we are not going to hang them. But the condition is this: They must pay.
Tamala Krsna: Maybe for those who will not pay, we could do simple ones, just with the, a...
Prabhupada: We do not say that "If you cannot pay, I will hang you." No. "Pay, try to pay." (static) In our Hyderabad scheme, we have taken three, four lakhs loan from you. And he has taken, Jayapataka has taken, you know? Nobody has paid me. Till now. But there is promise they will pay.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that's good. At least the big temples, Ramesvara, in the beginning can certainly afford it.
Ramesvara: On a long-term basis.
Tamala Krsna: No, I won't even, for New York, I won't even take a loan.
Prabhupada: No, we can forward loan if it is absolutely necessary.
Tamala Krsna: I won't need it. We have the money.
Prabhupada: Oh, this side also road is becoming...
Ramesvara: All the way down from the beach to downtown Los Angeles.
Tamala Krsna: Fixing it.
Ramesvara: This is going to be one of the main streets in Los Angeles.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is.
Tamala Krsna: That's great.
Prabhupada: (japa) (end)

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