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June 3, 1976, Los Angeles
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: While I was in New York, I've been going to the United Nations building there, and there's a organization called ECOSOC, the Economic and Social Council. It's made up of the members of the U.N. and I think there's very good chance that our society can be represented amongst this group as a nongovernmental organization, which means that in various matters which the council discusses, we would be a consultive group and we would be able to present statements as well as literature on how to solve..., on our viewpoint on how to solve various problems facing the council. And these would be distributed to all the United Nations representatives.
Prabhupāda: As soon as you say "God," they will reject.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, actually, one of the things which this council handles is freedom of religion throughout the world.
Prabhupāda: That means they do not believe in God. Freedom of religion means whatever you like, you do.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes. That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: That is going on. Religion is not very important.
Prabhupāda: Yes. How to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, that is their consideration. Animal activities.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But one advantage of this is that all of the.... Just like they make a lot of studies of various countries.
Prabhupāda: "Studies" means if they do not take the science of God as the most important items. Then they'll say: "Yes, you have freedom, you can do. I have got my freedom."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. They make a lot of information available on the.... In other words, it'll help our saṅkīrtana movement because they make inquiries into the freedom of an individual, for example, to.... As we want to distribute literature in various countries, they have so much facts and figures on where that would be possible.
Prabhupāda: And the newsreel will say that this saṅkīrtana movement is nuisance, it is disturbance. Then what they'll do?
Rāmeśvara: There's also some respectability if we become connected with...
Prabhupāda: That is all right.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's prestigious, and it also allows us to have a lot of information available. Just like, as we're finding out, for example, Rāmeśvara Mahārāja is working with our lawyer here, and we find that we have the legal right to distribute in airports. Legally, we have the right. Similarly, there are legal rights for our saṅkīrtana movement in various countries in the world, and through this group we would get access to all information on what the legal position is and other things of this kind.
Rāmeśvara: (Maharishi Mahesh) Yogi, he tried to file a trademark on the words "Transcendental Meditation" with the United States government. So we protested that actually he cannot claim that he is teaching transcendental meditation, what to speak of prohibiting anyone else from using those words. So they accepted our claim and kicked out his application.
Rāmeśvara: They were writing, their lawyers were writing our Society letters that "You cannot use the words 'Transcendental Meditation.' Maharishi has made up this process and you are stealing from him."
Bharadvāja: Yesterday you gave an example of a man who was lying asleep in bed, and he is transported somewhere in dream, walking on the beach. What is the full...? Because we're going to try to make an exhibit of it. So what is the full analogy? Is he actually going to another place by his mind, he's actually transported?
Prabhupāda: The soul is going there. The seer is the same in this gross body or in the subtle bodies. I am in the, walking in this gross body, I'm seeing this ocean, and I will leave my gross body in dream, I go to India. So the seer is the same. That is the proof of transmigration. He's dreaming tiger, and he's crying, "Here is a tiger, tiger, tiger," and another man, who is seer of the body, he says, "Where is tiger?" So this is the difference. One is seeing through this gross body, another seeing through the subtle body, but the seer is the same. Transmigration of the soul means, when he's seeing through.... That is practical. The child, when he's seeing through the childish body, he's talking nonsense. The same soul, when he's talking as an elderly person, he's talking beautiful (indistinct). The seer is the same, simply the glass is changed. Sometimes blue, sometimes red. [break] Seer is the same, medium is different. That you have.... And dead body means the seer is no longer there. It has entered another body. [break]
Pradyumna: ...when someone is sleeping and dreaming, that the seer has left the gross body?
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Bharadvāja: How does the.... Life symptoms, how are the life symptoms maintained in the body?
Bharadvāja: The life symptoms are maintained in the body still?
Prabhupāda: No, life symptoms, there is not. The body's fit; therefore, he comes back again. When the body is not fit, he enters another body. Just like your car you leave. We have come here. Now the car is all right; we go. If it is useless, we don't go. We take another.
Bharadvāja: The body is breathing.
Hṛdayānanda: That is like leaving the motor running.
Prabhupāda: They, unless the seer returns back, the body will lie down. That is death. The seer no more comes back. Then it is dead.
Hṛdayānanda: Yes, sometimes a man dies in his sleep.
Prabhupāda: It is dead.
Prabhupāda: Yes. All deaths are temporary. When you change bodies, you die for seven months. This death is for few hours, and that is for seven months. That's all.
Bharadvāja: What happens when he dreams of the spiritual master or Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Dreaming means he's seeing. The seer is the same.
Rādhāvallabha: In Hawaii you were saying that they take rest for six months and wake up a dog.
Prabhupāda: Yes. (laughter) [break] ...a small garden like this, that is called a hanging garden.
Bharadvāja: Śrīla Prabhupāda, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa is considered to be the watering process, and sometimes from chanting, the weeds, from watering, the weeds also grow along with devotional service—the weeds of different desires. I don't understand how it is possible that from chanting that these weeds grow.
Prabhupāda: Chanting is purifying all material desires. It will take, gradually. Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. If you are chanting without any offense, then your heart will be cleansed of all material contamination. Harer nāma [Cc. Ādi 17.21].
Bharadvāja: So pulling out the weeds means avoiding the offenses in chanting the holy name.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So long we'll have material desires, we'll have to accept a material body and fulfill the desires.
Mahendra: Sometimes, although a devotee understands that he must take birth again if he does not, if he is not strict, he thinks, "Oh, it is so difficult to be strict. Maybe I'll just take it easy and remain engaged in devotional service, then I'll take another birth as a devotee and maybe next time I'll finish up my business."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. He gets good opportunity of material enjoyment, and then take birth in good family, aristocratic or brāhmaṇa. Then where he ended in last life, he begins again. There is a verse: paurva-dehikam. Paurva-dehikam means previous birth.
Mahendra: It seems, though, that in that respect, he's gambling.
Mahendra: Yes, he's gambling, that he's thinking that "Oh, next life I will come back in a better condition," but his next might be different.
Prabhupāda: Why should he desire like that? That means he has not understood what is meant by Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One who understands Kṛṣṇa consciousness should want to finish the business of material life.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore he's required to read Bhagavad-gītā thoroughly. It is said clearly, "This is a place of misery." Why do you desire to keep yourself in this.... That means you do not understand what is spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Thinking. Thinking, he's under the influence of māyā. māyā is dictating, "Why you are trying to go away? Come on, here, Santa Monica." (laughter) And when you become detestful either this Santa Monica or any Monica, "I am not interested," then your spiritual life is...
Jagannātha-suta: Śrīla Prabhupāda, when I was in New York recently to check the color printing of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, 7.2, we were presented with two awards which your books had won for color and design, two awards from the Printing Industries of Metropolitan New York. They gave us big wooden plaques with a certificate of excellence, yes, for Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and for Caitanya-caritāmṛta.
Hṛdayānanda: You should show Prabhupāda, bring him those plaques.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Bring it, I shall see.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...diminution on this path of devotional service, nehābhikrama-nāśo'sti [Bg. 2.40]. So does that mean that once one enters the material world, there's only progress in going back to Godhead, although it may be slow, over many lifetimes?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. One is going slow, one is finishing very rapidly. If one is serious, he can finish very rapidly. If one is not serious, it will take time.
Rāmeśvara: [break] ...contests and get all sorts of awards and recognition. Because no one has such beautiful books.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's a fact.
Rāmeśvara: We have also won awards for Back to Godhead, the cover design.
Prabhupāda: Cover designs?
Mahendra: They like the cover, but they're afraid to look inside.
Rādhāvallabha: Śrīla Prabhupāda, at the time of death, when the soul leaves the body, at that time the body is destroyed. So at the time of sleeping, when the soul leaves the body, how is the body maintained?
Rādhāvallabha: At the time of sleeping, when the soul leaves the body, why is the body not destroyed at that time?
Prabhupāda: Why? Suppose you have left the car; does that mean it is destroyed? You are going again.
Rādhāvallabha: But at the time of death it is destroyed when you leave it.
Prabhupāda: Death is different. When the car is no more usable, that is death. But we are returning to the car because we know that it is usable. And if we know that it is useless, we don't go to that car. That is death.
Yadubara: Śrīla Prabhupāda. At the time of sleeping, there is a subtle reality that the subtle body enters into?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Reality means as you take this awakening vision as reality, similarly, the dream vision is also real.... Nothing, none of them are reality. They are all temporary.
Yadubara: But that subtle reality is just as real as this gross reality?
Prabhupāda: Yes. They'll not stay. This reality will not stay.
Prabhupāda: Yes, simply a long duration dream. Do you think this skyscraper building will stay? Nothing will stay. It may stay for five hundred years or five thousand years. But is it not permanent. Anything you take—the trees, this land, nothing; even this ocean. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate [Bg. 8.19]. It appears again and again disappears, that's all. Everything. The material world means that. Bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate. Vyaktāvyaktam. Sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. This town is manifested, and one big wave of sea, it will be nonmanifested, immediately.
Yadubara: So that subtle reality is existing side by side with this gross reality.
Prabhupāda: Reality is in the spiritual world. This is imitation reality. Real reality is in the spiritual world.
Hari-śauri: We have to go left here, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (pause) The material universes are like a produce of Mahā-Viṣṇu.
Prabhupāda: A big dream, that's all. Material existence means a big dream. How long you'll dream? So long you are in this body. And as long as the body is finished, your dream is finished. Your nation, your society, your friends, your money, your bank, everything finished. Is it not a dream? Then dream another—you become cats and dogs or demigods. You dream in a different way. You are now dreaming as American; next life you may dream something else.
Bharadvāja: So every man has his own world that he's living in?
Prabhupāda: Eh? He creates his own world. Nothing is own—temporary—he creates, and Kṛṣṇa gives him the opportunity, "All right, you enjoy." Hare nāma, hare nāma.
Govardhana-dhārī: While doing books we create an atmosphere sometimes, the devotees..., Kṛṣṇa gives us the intelligence to give the spiritual world to these living entities. How can we always stay on that transcendental platform, to make them see this? [break] (in car:)
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: If the soul is the living force, if the soul actually leaves the body, how the body will be..., work.
Rāmeśvara: There's some connection still. When the soul is..., when the body..., when you are dreaming, and the soul leaves the body, but still there must be some connection between the soul...
Prabhupāda: Connection is there, just like you leave your car, you keep the engine going on—gug gug gug gug gug gug—but you are not there. The engine, you keep it started.
Rāmeśvara: Somehow the soul's influence is still there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You make that engine keeping—gug gug gug gug. If you like you can stop.
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is it actually Kṛṣṇa who's maintaining the life in the body then? The life of the body is maintained by Kṛṣṇa or by the individual jīva?
Prabhupāda: No, by Kṛṣṇa. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's property. You are thinking, "It is mine." Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. I am the proprietor of this body, but another body is there. He is the proprietor of all the bodies. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata. The landlord, he's the proprietor. You are occupier, that's all.
Rāmeśvara: Oh. So the Lord in the heart is keeping that body for that jīva, so that when he's finished dreaming he comes back to it.
Rāmeśvara: It's actually the Lord that's keeping it.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Rāmeśvara: ...the engine going.
Prabhupāda: Maybe driver. Driver is left.
Rāmeśvara: Driver is left.
Rāmeśvara: Like chauffeur.
Rāmeśvara: Parāsya śaktir vividhaiva śrūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Kṛṣṇa has unlimited energies. Yesterday you were explaining in your garden to that priest that Kṛṣṇa, He says, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the father of all living entities." And you were saying, "Who can challenge this or deny it?" Now someone can say that there is contradiction, if there is some contradiction in Kṛṣṇa's statement, therefore...
Prabhupāda: Who can deny? Who can contradict this? That is my challenge. The contradiction is not valid. Who can contradict it? That is my challenge.
Rāmeśvara: Well, say in some philosophy...
Prabhupāda: Just like a father, a real father can say, "I am the father." Who can challenge? Father is one. Who can? Nobody can say "No, you are not father, he's father." No. The real father is father. Father cannot be replaced.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Suppose real father says, "I am the father of this boy." Who will challenge it?
Rāmeśvara: Someone who does not believe my father.
Prabhupāda: That means he's a rascal. But father cannot be changed. He does not know; he challenges, that's all. How the father can be changed? Father is one.
Prabhupāda: Evil is you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything comes from.... Yes. If.... You have created a situation. So for your satisfaction, Kṛṣṇa has given you the chance, but that is evil, what you have created.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you come under māyā, you have got so many propensities. So as soon as you disobey Kṛṣṇa, the māyā is there. Kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga vāñchā kare nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare (Prema-vivarta), immediately. Just like darkness and light. As soon as you give up light, you come to darkness. There is no second alternative.
Rāmeśvara: So why does He allow me to have this independence?
Prabhupāda: No, that is His.... Why not?
Rāmeśvara: Because it is not good for me.
Prabhupāda: Then you are not perfectly Kṛṣṇa's aṁśa. Kṛṣṇa has got independence. You see one son is born, even a father has got a black spot here, sometimes the son has got black spot.
Prabhupāda: Yes, therefore the demand is "You surrender, rascal. You are suffering, you surrender. That is your good..." Therefore He comes, He loves His sons, "You rascals, why you are creating plans? You come here. Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I shall give you all comforts."
Rāmeśvara: So when Kṛṣṇa.... Kṛṣṇa knows that I will misuse my independence, but still He gives me independence.
Prabhupāda: That is Kṛṣṇa's mercy.
Rāmeśvara: Even though it is bad for me.
Rāmeśvara: Because He knows everything in the past and everything in the future. So He must.... Kṛṣṇa is all-knowing.
Prabhupāda: This present, future, means, just like a father knows the..., how the child is. Now if the child changes, and touches the fire, Kṛṣṇa knows it will burn. He knew when the child did not touch the fire, his future. And when he touched the fire, Kṛṣṇa knew the result. So He always knows. His position is to know the future. He's always.... Now you are changing, what is the future due to your little independence?
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: So can you actually say that Kṛṣṇa knows you'll misuse your independence? He knows if you misuse your independence what will happen, but can it be actually said that...
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Rāmeśvara: But then that limits Kṛṣṇa. If you say that Kṛṣṇa did not know when I will misuse my indep.... or if I will...
Prabhupāda: No, no. That means you do not know what is the independence. You can, you can change your position at any time. That is your independence.
Prabhupāda: Yes, because you are independent. That is the meaning.
Prabhupāda: What will the.... That will depend on.... And the result He knows. Just as a lawyer knows that he has done this, criminal, he'll be punished like this. So His position to know the future is always there. Either in this condition or other condition.
Rāmeśvara: But the lawyer doesn't...
Prabhupāda: Why Kṛṣṇa? Everyone knows. Suppose you have got this body; next body he's a dog. I can say you'll bark.
Prabhupāda: What you'll do? That's all. What to speak of Kṛṣṇa; I can say.
Prabhupāda: No, this is the answer. Kṛṣṇa's position is always the same. He knows past, present and future.
Rāmeśvara: This is Karandhara's problem, this point of philosophy. He cannot understand it. His argument is that he is having so much trouble due to his sense attraction. And Kṛṣṇa gave him the sense attraction, or Kṛṣṇa gave him senses; now he is having trouble controlling his senses. But he argues that Kṛṣṇa knows everything, so Kṛṣṇa knew that he would have trouble controlling his senses; therefore why did Kṛṣṇa give him senses?
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense.
Prabhupāda: I have given you charge of this BBT, millions of dollars you are dealing, but it is not for your misuse. As soon as you misuse, that is your responsibility.
Rāmeśvara: Yes, but he says but still, you'll know that I'm going to misuse it.
Prabhupāda: No. That Kṛṣṇa knows, when something charge is given. But because you are independent, I know that "Rāmeśvara is very good boy; let him be in charge." But you can misuse at any moment, because you have got independence. You can misuse at any moment. At that time your position is different. That is this Karandhara's, he was in this position, but as soon as he misused it, immediately, Kṛṣṇa changed his position.
Rāmeśvara: He's so foolish, he blames...
Prabhupāda: That is our foolishness, that we cannot understand. That is our foolishness. How you can understand Kṛṣṇa's activities?
Rāmeśvara: That's the only answer.
Prabhupāda: What Kṛṣṇa is doing.... You are little independent, but He is fully independent. He knows everything. His independence is not under condition; your independence is under condition. If you misuse your independence, you'll suffer.
Rāmeśvara: His argument is that "I should never be allowed to misuse my independence."
Prabhupāda: That is not independence. Independence means you can use properly or improperly.
Rāmeśvara: He cannot understand that.
Prabhupāda: He wants to become a machine.
Rāmeśvara: Yes, he'd rather be a machine and be in Kṛṣṇa's service.
Prabhupāda: No, no, machine we are, but still there is independence. That means you are not absolutely independently, relatively. The state, you say we are American-independent. But that does not mean you can do whatever you like. As soon as you misuse, you are arrested, punished. Even the president is not independent. As soon as he misused his power, drag him, "Come out." What to speak of you.
Prabhupāda: And he does not agree to be guided by the supreme controller. He does not agree that He is supreme controller. "I am everything." Therefore they are called mūḍhas, māyayāpahṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Mūḍha. He's being controlled. As soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. And he says "I am God." He's becoming old, and he says that "I am God." Why you are becoming old? God is always young.
Rāmeśvara: So even though he wants to go back to Godhead, he cannot be freed from the influence of māyā. Māyā is keeping him.
Prabhupāda: Unless you are fully surrender, sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66], you cannot do it. Māyā will not leave you.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Māyā will keep you freed when you fully surrender. If you surrender to your wife and many women, māyā will not give you.
Prabhupāda: Yes, māyā must keep you, must keep you, must keep you because you are not surrendering fully.
Rāmeśvara: Then he says that "As long as I have all these material urges, I cannot control them. The māyā is insurmountable."
Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to rectify your desires. That is bhakti.
Rāmeśvara: By chanting.
Rāmeśvara: How do you.... But then he says, "How do you develop the strength to keep chanting even when māyā is making you so attracted?"
Prabhupāda: That means your chanting is not pure. That is called aparādha. You are thinking that "I am chanting, I am purified," and finding out another woman, illicit sex. Then how you can be purified?
Prabhupāda: No. It is prohibited, aparādha. If you chant with aparādha, offenses, then how you can be pure?
Hari-śauri: The process is to follow some rules and regulations, but they say, "How do you get the strength to follow the rules and regulations?"
Prabhupāda: That is not your business, that is Kṛṣṇa's business. You follow Kṛṣṇa. If you cheat Kṛṣṇa, then you'll be cheated. That's all. Kṛṣṇa does not cheat you, but you create a situation to cheat yourself, and māyā will make an arrangement so that you are cheated. This is māyā's business.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You promise no illicit sex, no, before God, before spiritual master, before fire, and you play hypocrisy. So māyā is not seeing that? How you can avoid? māyā is always there. Yac cakṣur eṣa savitā sakala-grahāṇām. You cannot escape the eyes of God in so many different agencies. And still He is personally sitting within your hearts. How you can escape? You may pretend to be a very great devotee, but the Person, Supreme, He is within yourself, He's seeing everything. No cheating with Him. Nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ. "Oh, I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so even I do something wrong, it will be adjusted." Adjusted, when you are sincere, by chance you have done something. That can be adjusted. But not intentionally. As soon as there is intentional cheating, that you'll have to suffer the effect.
Prabhupāda: Then he's...
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, yes.
Rāmeśvara: But then again he argues like this, he says, "The living entity cannot do anything without the sanction of God. So I am desiring certain sinful activities, but why is Kṛṣṇa sanctioning it?"
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not sanction.
Rāmeśvara: Then how is it going on?
Prabhupāda: But you insist, so Kṛṣṇa, in disgust, says, "All right, do at your own risk. You rascal. You will not hear Me." That's all. I have given this example many times, that my son wanted to touch the table fan. Did I say it?
Rāmeśvara: I never heard it.
Prabhupāda: Oh, so, when he was only two years old, so the table fan was running, and the child, he wants to touch it. So I am: "No, don't touch." So, and he was.... So there was another friend, he was a doctor. He said that "Slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it. So he touched, "Tung." (sound imitation) Then I said, "Touch again?" "No!" (laughter) So it is like that.
Rāmeśvara: Oh. It is actually Kṛṣṇa's mercy...
Rāmeśvara: ...that He allows Him to feel the pain.
Rāmeśvara: If he insists.
Prabhupāda: He gives instruction. Just like I said, "Don't touch. It will hurt your finger. It is not good." "No, no." "So all right, touch."
Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You mentioned that the more intelligent person can become obedient by hearing. The less intelligent person has to see, suffer.
Prabhupāda: By practical experience. Dekhe sekhe thekhe sekhese. Tekhe sekhese(?) means he's a fool. Unless he comes to the actual position, he does not learn. And therefore śāstra-cakṣus—one who follows the śāstra's instruction, he is safe. That is experienced already. (end)
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