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Morning Walk

June 3, 1976, Los Angeles
Tamala Krsna: While I was in New York, I've been going to the United Nations building there, and there's a organization called ECOSOC, the Economic and Social Council. It's made up of the members of the U.N. and I think there's very good chance that our society can be represented amongst this group as a nongovernmental organization, which means that in various matters which the council discusses, we would be a consultive group and we would be able to present statements as well as literature on how to solve..., on our viewpoint on how to solve various problems facing the council. And these would be distributed to all the United Nations representatives.
Prabhupada: As soon as you say "God," they will reject.
Tamala Krsna: Well, actually, one of the things which this council handles is freedom of religion throughout the world.
Prabhupada: That means they do not believe in God. Freedom of religion means whatever you like, you do.
Hrdayananda: Yes. That's a fact.
Prabhupada: That is going on. Religion is not very important.
Tamala Krsna: No. It's not one of their major considerations.
Prabhupada: Yes. How to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, that is their consideration. Animal activities.
Tamala Krsna: But one advantage of this is that all of the.... Just like they make a lot of studies of various countries.
Prabhupada: "Studies" means if they do not take the science of God as the most important items. Then they'll say: "Yes, you have freedom, you can do. I have got my freedom."
Tamala Krsna: Yeah. They make a lot of information available on the.... In other words, it'll help our sankirtana movement because they make inquiries into the freedom of an individual, for example, to.... As we want to distribute literature in various countries, they have so much facts and figures on where that would be possible.
Prabhupada: And the newsreel will say that this sankirtana movement is nuisance, it is disturbance. Then what they'll do?
Ramesvara: There's also some respectability if we become connected with...
Prabhupada: That is all right.
Tamala Krsna: It's prestigious, and it also allows us to have a lot of information available. Just like, as we're finding out, for example, Ramesvara Maharaja is working with our lawyer here, and we find that we have the legal right to distribute in airports. Legally, we have the right. Similarly, there are legal rights for our sankirtana movement in various countries in the world, and through this group we would get access to all information on what the legal position is and other things of this kind.
Prabhupada: Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Yes, that's nice.
Ramesvara: (Maharishi Mahesh) Yogi, he tried to file a trademark on the words "Transcendental Meditation" with the United States government. So we protested that actually he cannot claim that he is teaching transcendental meditation, what to speak of prohibiting anyone else from using those words. So they accepted our claim and kicked out his application.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: They were writing, their lawyers were writing our Society letters that "You cannot use the words 'Transcendental Meditation.' Maharishi has made up this process and you are stealing from him."
Tamala Krsna: He's stealing from Krsna.
Bharadvaja: Yesterday you gave an example of a man who was lying asleep in bed, and he is transported somewhere in dream, walking on the beach. What is the full...? Because we're going to try to make an exhibit of it. So what is the full analogy? Is he actually going to another place by his mind, he's actually transported?
Prabhupada: The soul is going there. The seer is the same in this gross body or in the subtle bodies. I am in the, walking in this gross body, I'm seeing this ocean, and I will leave my gross body in dream, I go to India. So the seer is the same. That is the proof of transmigration. He's dreaming tiger, and he's crying, "Here is a tiger, tiger, tiger," and another man, who is seer of the body, he says, "Where is tiger?" So this is the difference. One is seeing through this gross body, another seeing through the subtle body, but the seer is the same. Transmigration of the soul means, when he's seeing through.... That is practical. The child, when he's seeing through the childish body, he's talking nonsense. The same soul, when he's talking as an elderly person, he's talking beautiful (indistinct). The seer is the same, simply the glass is changed. Sometimes blue, sometimes red. [break] Seer is the same, medium is different. That you have.... And dead body means the seer is no longer there. It has entered another body. [break]
Pradyumna: ...when someone is sleeping and dreaming, that the seer has left the gross body?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Bharadvaja: How does the.... Life symptoms, how are the life symptoms maintained in the body?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Bharadvaja: The life symptoms are maintained in the body still?
Prabhupada: No, life symptoms, there is not. The body's fit; therefore, he comes back again. When the body is not fit, he enters another body. Just like your car you leave. We have come here. Now the car is all right; we go. If it is useless, we don't go. We take another.
Bharadvaja: The body is breathing.
Hrdayananda: That is like leaving the motor running.
Prabhupada: They, unless the seer returns back, the body will lie down. That is death. The seer no more comes back. Then it is dead.
Hrdayananda: Yes, sometimes a man dies in his sleep.
Prabhupada: It is dead.
Tamala Krsna: So sleeping is like temporary death.
Prabhupada: Yes. All deaths are temporary. When you change bodies, you die for seven months. This death is for few hours, and that is for seven months. That's all.
Bharadvaja: What happens when he dreams of the spiritual master or Krsna?
Prabhupada: That's all right. Dreaming means he's seeing. The seer is the same.
Radhavallabha: In Hawaii you were saying that they take rest for six months and wake up a dog.
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughter) [break] ...a small garden like this, that is called a hanging garden.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, we can walk there in the mornings.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Bharadvaja: Srila Prabhupada, chanting Hare Krsna is considered to be the watering process, and sometimes from chanting, the weeds, from watering, the weeds also grow along with devotional servicethe weeds of different desires. I don't understand how it is possible that from chanting that these weeds grow.
Prabhupada: Chanting is purifying all material desires. It will take, gradually. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. If you are chanting without any offense, then your heart will be cleansed of all material contamination. Harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21].
Bharadvaja: So pulling out the weeds means avoiding the offenses in chanting the holy name.
Prabhupada: Yes. So long we'll have material desires, we'll have to accept a material body and fulfill the desires.
Mahendra: Sometimes, although a devotee understands that he must take birth again if he does not, if he is not strict, he thinks, "Oh, it is so difficult to be strict. Maybe I'll just take it easy and remain engaged in devotional service, then I'll take another birth as a devotee and maybe next time I'll finish up my business."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. He gets good opportunity of material enjoyment, and then take birth in good family, aristocratic or brahmana. Then where he ended in last life, he begins again. There is a verse: paurva-dehikam. Paurva-dehikam means previous birth.
Mahendra: It seems, though, that in that respect, he's gambling.
Prabhupada: Gambling?
Mahendra: Yes, he's gambling, that he's thinking that "Oh, next life I will come back in a better condition," but his next might be different.
Prabhupada: Why should he desire like that? That means he has not understood what is meant by Krsna consciousness.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. One who understands wants to get out in this lifetime.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: One who understands Krsna consciousness should want to finish the business of material life.
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore he's required to read Bhagavad-gita thoroughly. It is said clearly, "This is a place of misery." Why do you desire to keep yourself in this.... That means you do not understand what is spiritual life.
Hari-sauri: Still thinking he's this body.
Prabhupada: Thinking. Thinking, he's under the influence of maya. maya is dictating, "Why you are trying to go away? Come on, here, Santa Monica." (laughter) And when you become detestful either this Santa Monica or any Monica, "I am not interested," then your spiritual life is...
Jagannatha-suta: Srila Prabhupada, when I was in New York recently to check the color printing of Srimad-Bhagavatam, 7.2, we were presented with two awards which your books had won for color and design, two awards from the Printing Industries of Metropolitan New York. They gave us big wooden plaques with a certificate of excellence, yes, for Srimad-Bhagavatam and for Caitanya-caritamrta.
Hrdayananda: You should show Prabhupada, bring him those plaques.
Jagannatha-suta: Yes, we have those plaques hanging up in the Press building now.
Prabhupada: Hm. Bring it, I shall see.
Pusta Krsna: [break] ...diminution on this path of devotional service, nehabhikrama-naso'sti [Bg. 2.40]. So does that mean that once one enters the material world, there's only progress in going back to Godhead, although it may be slow, over many lifetimes?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. One is going slow, one is finishing very rapidly. If one is serious, he can finish very rapidly. If one is not serious, it will take time.
Ramesvara: [break] ...contests and get all sorts of awards and recognition. Because no one has such beautiful books.
Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact.
Ramesvara: We have also won awards for Back to Godhead, the cover design.
Prabhupada: Cover designs?
Mahendra: They like the cover, but they're afraid to look inside.
Radhavallabha: Srila Prabhupada, at the time of death, when the soul leaves the body, at that time the body is destroyed. So at the time of sleeping, when the soul leaves the body, how is the body maintained?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Radhavallabha: At the time of sleeping, when the soul leaves the body, why is the body not destroyed at that time?
Prabhupada: Why? Suppose you have left the car; does that mean it is destroyed? You are going again.
Radhavallabha: But at the time of death it is destroyed when you leave it.
Prabhupada: Death is different. When the car is no more usable, that is death. But we are returning to the car because we know that it is usable. And if we know that it is useless, we don't go to that car. That is death.
Yadubara: Srila Prabhupada. At the time of sleeping, there is a subtle reality that the subtle body enters into?
Prabhupada: Yes. Reality means as you take this awakening vision as reality, similarly, the dream vision is also real.... Nothing, none of them are reality. They are all temporary.
Yadubara: But that subtle reality is just as real as this gross reality?
Prabhupada: Yes. They'll not stay. This reality will not stay.
Hari-sauri: It's all a dreamlike existence.
Prabhupada: Yes, simply a long duration dream. Do you think this skyscraper building will stay? Nothing will stay. It may stay for five hundred years or five thousand years. But is it not permanent. Anything you takethe trees, this land, nothing; even this ocean. Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. It appears again and again disappears, that's all. Everything. The material world means that. Bhutva bhutva praliyate. Vyaktavyaktam. Sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. This town is manifested, and one big wave of sea, it will be nonmanifested, immediately.
Yadubara: So that subtle reality is existing side by side with this gross reality.
Prabhupada: Reality is in the spiritual world. This is imitation reality. Real reality is in the spiritual world.
Hari-sauri: We have to go left here, Srila Prabhupada. (pause) The material universes are like a produce of Maha-Visnu.
Prabhupada: A big dream, that's all. Material existence means a big dream. How long you'll dream? So long you are in this body. And as long as the body is finished, your dream is finished. Your nation, your society, your friends, your money, your bank, everything finished. Is it not a dream? Then dream anotheryou become cats and dogs or demigods. You dream in a different way. You are now dreaming as American; next life you may dream something else.
Bharadvaja: So every man has his own world that he's living in?
Prabhupada: Eh? He creates his own world. Nothing is owntemporaryhe creates, and Krsna gives him the opportunity, "All right, you enjoy." Hare nama, hare nama.
Govardhana-dhari: While doing books we create an atmosphere sometimes, the devotees..., Krsna gives us the intelligence to give the spiritual world to these living entities. How can we always stay on that transcendental platform, to make them see this? [break] (in car:)
Pusta Krsna: If the soul is the living force, if the soul actually leaves the body, how the body will be..., work.
Ramesvara: There's some connection still. When the soul is..., when the body..., when you are dreaming, and the soul leaves the body, but still there must be some connection between the soul...
Prabhupada: Connection is there, just like you leave your car, you keep the engine going ongug gug gug gug gug gugbut you are not there. The engine, you keep it started.
Ramesvara: Somehow the soul's influence is still there.
Prabhupada: Yes. You make that engine keepinggug gug gug gug. If you like you can stop.
Pusta Krsna: Is it actually Krsna who's maintaining the life in the body then? The life of the body is maintained by Krsna or by the individual jiva?
Prabhupada: No, by Krsna. Everything is Krsna's property. You are thinking, "It is mine." Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata. I am the proprietor of this body, but another body is there. He is the proprietor of all the bodies. Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata. The landlord, he's the proprietor. You are occupier, that's all.
Ramesvara: Oh. So the Lord in the heart is keeping that body for that jiva, so that when he's finished dreaming he comes back to it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: It's actually the Lord that's keeping it.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Ramesvara: ...the engine going.
Prabhupada: Maybe driver. Driver is left.
Ramesvara: Driver is left.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Like chauffeur.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. Krsna has unlimited energies. Yesterday you were explaining in your garden to that priest that Krsna, He says, Krsna says, "I am the father of all living entities." And you were saying, "Who can challenge this or deny it?" Now someone can say that there is contradiction, if there is some contradiction in Krsna's statement, therefore...
Prabhupada: Who can deny? Who can contradict this? That is my challenge. The contradiction is not valid. Who can contradict it? That is my challenge.
Ramesvara: Well, say in some philosophy...
Prabhupada: Just like a father, a real father can say, "I am the father." Who can challenge? Father is one. Who can? Nobody can say "No, you are not father, he's father." No. The real father is father. Father cannot be replaced.
Prabhupada: Yes. Suppose real father says, "I am the father of this boy." Who will challenge it?
Ramesvara: Someone who does not believe my father.
Prabhupada: That means he's a rascal. But father cannot be changed. He does not know; he challenges, that's all. How the father can be changed? Father is one.
Ramesvara: We say that Krsna is all good.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: And then the materialist says, "If Krsna is all good, then how is there any evil?"
Prabhupada: Evil is you.
Ramesvara: But everything comes from Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything comes from.... Yes. If.... You have created a situation. So for your satisfaction, Krsna has given you the chance, but that is evil, what you have created.
Ramesvara: But I have this propensity because I am part of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. When you come under maya, you have got so many propensities. So as soon as you disobey Krsna, the maya is there. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare (Prema-vivarta), immediately. Just like darkness and light. As soon as you give up light, you come to darkness. There is no second alternative.
Ramesvara: Krsna is the friend of everyone.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So why does He allow me to have this independence?
Prabhupada: No, that is His.... Why not?
Ramesvara: Because it is not good for me.
Prabhupada: Then you are not perfectly Krsna's amsa. Krsna has got independence. You see one son is born, even a father has got a black spot here, sometimes the son has got black spot.
Ramesvara: But if it's not good for me, if I will misuse it, why would Krsna give it to me anyway?
Prabhupada: Yes, therefore the demand is "You surrender, rascal. You are suffering, you surrender. That is your good..." Therefore He comes, He loves His sons, "You rascals, why you are creating plans? You come here. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. I shall give you all comforts."
Ramesvara: Krsna knows everything in the past, and everything in the future.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So when Krsna.... Krsna knows that I will misuse my independence, but still He gives me independence.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna's mercy.
Ramesvara: Even though it is bad for me.
Pusta Krsna: You say Krsna knows you are going to misuse your independence.
Ramesvara: Because He knows everything in the past and everything in the future. So He must.... Krsna is all-knowing.
Prabhupada: This present, future, means, just like a father knows the..., how the child is. Now if the child changes, and touches the fire, Krsna knows it will burn. He knew when the child did not touch the fire, his future. And when he touched the fire, Krsna knew the result. So He always knows. His position is to know the future. He's always.... Now you are changing, what is the future due to your little independence?
Pusta Krsna: So can you actually say that Krsna knows you'll misuse your independence? He knows if you misuse your independence what will happen, but can it be actually said that...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...he knows you will definitely misuse...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...you can use your independence properly, it's up to you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: But then that limits Krsna. If you say that Krsna did not know when I will misuse my indep.... or if I will...
Prabhupada: No, no. That means you do not know what is the independence. You can, you can change your position at any time. That is your independence.
Ramesvara: But doesn't Krsna know if I will do it?
Prabhupada: Yes, because you are independent. That is the meaning.
Ramesvara: Marginal.
Prabhupada: What will the.... That will depend on.... And the result He knows. Just as a lawyer knows that he has done this, criminal, he'll be punished like this. So His position to know the future is always there. Either in this condition or other condition.
Ramesvara: But the lawyer doesn't...
Prabhupada: Why Krsna? Everyone knows. Suppose you have got this body; next body he's a dog. I can say you'll bark.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: What you'll do? That's all. What to speak of Krsna; I can say.
Pusta Krsna: That was Satsvarupa's question, Satsvarupa Maharaja's question.
Prabhupada: No, this is the answer. Krsna's position is always the same. He knows past, present and future.
Ramesvara: This is Karandhara's problem, this point of philosophy. He cannot understand it. His argument is that he is having so much trouble due to his sense attraction. And Krsna gave him the sense attraction, or Krsna gave him senses; now he is having trouble controlling his senses. But he argues that Krsna knows everything, so Krsna knew that he would have trouble controlling his senses; therefore why did Krsna give him senses?
Prabhupada: That is nonsense.
Ramesvara: He says Krsna is playing games.
Prabhupada: I have given you charge of this BBT, millions of dollars you are dealing, but it is not for your misuse. As soon as you misuse, that is your responsibility.
Ramesvara: Yes, but he says but still, you'll know that I'm going to misuse it.
Prabhupada: No. That Krsna knows, when something charge is given. But because you are independent, I know that "Ramesvara is very good boy; let him be in charge." But you can misuse at any moment, because you have got independence. You can misuse at any moment. At that time your position is different. That is this Karandhara's, he was in this position, but as soon as he misused it, immediately, Krsna changed his position.
Ramesvara: He's so foolish, he blames...
Prabhupada: That is our foolishness, that we cannot understand. That is our foolishness. How you can understand Krsna's activities?
Ramesvara: That's the only answer.
Prabhupada: What Krsna is doing.... You are little independent, but He is fully independent. He knows everything. His independence is not under condition; your independence is under condition. If you misuse your independence, you'll suffer.
Ramesvara: His argument is that "I should never be allowed to misuse my independence."
Hari-sauri: There's no question of independence then.
Ramesvara: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is not independence. Independence means you can use properly or improperly.
Ramesvara: He cannot understand that.
Prabhupada: He wants to become a machine.
Ramesvara: Yes, he'd rather be a machine and be in Krsna's service.
Prabhupada: No, no, machine we are, but still there is independence. That means you are not absolutely independently, relatively. The state, you say we are American-independent. But that does not mean you can do whatever you like. As soon as you misuse, you are arrested, punished. Even the president is not independent. As soon as he misused his power, drag him, "Come out." What to speak of you.
Hari-sauri: That's like an impersonalist. He doesn't want any individual existence.
Prabhupada: And he does not agree to be guided by the supreme controller. He does not agree that He is supreme controller. "I am everything." Therefore they are called mudhas, mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg. 7.15]. Mudha. He's being controlled. As soon as there is some toothache, he goes to the doctor. And he says "I am God." He's becoming old, and he says that "I am God." Why you are becoming old? God is always young.
Ramesvara: He has another argument. He says that he's in the grip of maya.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: So even though he wants to go back to Godhead, he cannot be freed from the influence of maya. Maya is keeping him.
Prabhupada: Unless you are fully surrender, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66], you cannot do it. Maya will not leave you.
Ramesvara: But in order to fully surrender, you have to be free from maya.
Prabhupada: Yes. Maya will keep you freed when you fully surrender. If you surrender to your wife and many women, maya will not give you.
Pusta Krsna: He's thinking freedom without Krsna.
Ramesvara: He says that maya keeps making him full of material desires.
Prabhupada: Yes, maya must keep you, must keep you, must keep you because you are not surrendering fully.
Ramesvara: Then he says that "As long as I have all these material urges, I cannot control them. The maya is insurmountable."
Prabhupada: No. Maya is not.... What maya is? Punishing, that's all.
Hari-sauri: The desire is ours; it's simply either Krsna or maya.
Prabhupada: Therefore you have to rectify your desires. That is bhakti.
Ramesvara: By chanting.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: How do you.... But then he says, "How do you develop the strength to keep chanting even when maya is making you so attracted?"
Prabhupada: That means your chanting is not pure. That is called aparadha. You are thinking that "I am chanting, I am purified," and finding out another woman, illicit sex. Then how you can be purified?
Hari-sauri: One argument a lot of them use is that, er,...
Prabhupada: No. It is prohibited, aparadha. If you chant with aparadha, offenses, then how you can be pure?
Hari-sauri: The process is to follow some rules and regulations, but they say, "How do you get the strength to follow the rules and regulations?"
Prabhupada: That is not your business, that is Krsna's business. You follow Krsna. If you cheat Krsna, then you'll be cheated. That's all. Krsna does not cheat you, but you create a situation to cheat yourself, and maya will make an arrangement so that you are cheated. This is maya's business.
Hari-sauri: So it's a question of honesty.
Prabhupada: Yes. You promise no illicit sex, no, before God, before spiritual master, before fire, and you play hypocrisy. So maya is not seeing that? How you can avoid? maya is always there. Yac caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam. You cannot escape the eyes of God in so many different agencies. And still He is personally sitting within your hearts. How you can escape? You may pretend to be a very great devotee, but the Person, Supreme, He is within yourself, He's seeing everything. No cheating with Him. Namno balad yasya hi papa-buddhih. "Oh, I am chanting Hare Krsna, so even I do something wrong, it will be adjusted." Adjusted, when you are sincere, by chance you have done something. That can be adjusted. But not intentionally. As soon as there is intentional cheating, that you'll have to suffer the effect.
Pusta Krsna: So someone who is in knowledge and commits sinful activity...
Prabhupada: Then he's...
Pusta Krsna: ...his position is very bad...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes.
Pusta Krsna: ...compared to the innocent person, ignorant person.
Prabhupada: Yes. Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14].
Ramesvara: But then again he argues like this, he says, "The living entity cannot do anything without the sanction of God. So I am desiring certain sinful activities, but why is Krsna sanctioning it?"
Prabhupada: Krsna does not sanction.
Ramesvara: Then how is it going on?
Prabhupada: But you insist, so Krsna, in disgust, says, "All right, do at your own risk. You rascal. You will not hear Me." That's all. I have given this example many times, that my son wanted to touch the table fan. Did I say it?
Ramesvara: I never heard it.
Prabhupada: Oh, so, when he was only two years old, so the table fan was running, and the child, he wants to touch it. So I am: "No, don't touch." So, and he was.... So there was another friend, he was a doctor. He said that "Slow the speed and let him touch." So I did it. So he touched, "Tung." (sound imitation) Then I said, "Touch again?" "No!" (laughter) So it is like that.
Ramesvara: Oh. It is actually Krsna's mercy...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: ...that He allows Him to feel the pain.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Purifies his desires.
Pusta Krsna: But he doesn't have to feel the pain if he's obedient.
Ramesvara: If he insists.
Prabhupada: He gives instruction. Just like I said, "Don't touch. It will hurt your finger. It is not good." "No, no." "So all right, touch."
Pusta Krsna: You mentioned that the more intelligent person can become obedient by hearing. The less intelligent person has to see, suffer.
Prabhupada: By practical experience. Dekhe sekhe thekhe sekhese. Tekhe sekhese(?) means he's a fool. Unless he comes to the actual position, he does not learn. And therefore sastra-caksusone who follows the sastra's instruction, he is safe. That is experienced already. (end)

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