Garden Conversation

June 27, 1976, New Vrindaban
Prabhupada: So any question from the newcomers?
Pusta Krsna: This gentleman, he owns this house, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes, I know him.
Pusta Krsna: He mentioned that he met you way back in 1966 in Tompkins Square Park.
Prabhupada: Yes. (pause) If you go somewhere, you must know first of all why you have gone there. That is the first question. If you go to a store, the first business is that you have gone to purchase some particular thing from the store. That is understood. Similarly, why one should go to a spiritual master? What is the purpose? Answer any one of you.
Dhrstadyumna: One is..., when one is confused and frustrated by this material existence, he wants to find an answer to his problem. So there are different authorities in the world offering solutions, but one has to find the actual authority.
Prabhupada: That is the purport. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasu sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. One has to go to guru when one is inquisitive. Jijnasu. Jijnasu means we want to know so many things; that is our nature. Child also wants to know. He asks his parents, "What is this, father? What is this, mother?" That inquisitiveness is there in everyone. So when one wants to know about the Supreme, then he requires a guru, or spiritual master. It is not a fashion that "Everyone keeps a guru; let me also have a guru." Not like that. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. "In order to understand the transcendental science, one has to go to guru." Jijnasu sreya uttamam. After artha,... Just like generally, naturally, one goes to temple, church... Four classes of men. One is needy: "O God, give us our daily bread." One thinks... Actually, that is the fact. God gives us bread. So traditionally we are trained up. So we go to God, "Give us our daily bread." Similarly, one who wants to know what is God. Just like in our society, in Krsna consciousness, they see that these boys, young boys, they have given up everything, they are after Krsna. What is this Krsna? That is intelligent. Why they are after this Krsna? Then he has to go to a person, guru. In this way, there are many circumstances. But the real purpose is to know the Supreme. One who is inquisitive or anxious to know about the Supreme, then there is necessity of guru. Otherwise, what is the use of it? One who is not inquisitive to understand the Supreme, he has no business for a guru. But everyone has necessity to understand the Supreme. That is human life. A dog cannot inquire what is God, because he is dog. But a man can do that. He has got that developed intelligence. So if a man does not inquire about the Supreme Truth, he is no better than a dog. If one does not seek after spiritual master, he's a dog. He's in the standard of dog. Because that inquiry is the particular business of human being, to inquire about the Supreme. If he does not inquire, then still he's on the platform of dog. First of all, you have understood it or not? So any human being with developed intelligence must go to a spiritual master. If he does not go, then he's still in the animal platform. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Abhigacchet means he must. If he does not, then he is in the animal platform.
Dhrstadyumna: Srila Prabhupada? So if one is looking for a guru, but there are many people they are proclaiming themselves guru, and they are speaking "Supreme, God," how may one tell the actual guru?
Prabhupada: That is, if you want to purchase something, you must know where to purchase. Otherwise, you may be cheated. You, generally, you ask your friend that "I want to purchase some diamond, so can you give me some reliable address where I can go and purchase?" Generally, people do that. So you have to do that. If you want to purchase, you must know the preliminary understanding where diamond can be purchased. And if you are not aware of it, you may be cheated. That preliminary knowledge you must have. That means best thing is, those who are dealing with diamonds, you go there. Just like if anyone is inquisitive to understand God, so best thing is those who are dealing with God only, they have no other business. Then you go there. That is the intelligent. Why should you go to a cheater? This Krsna consciousness movement is especially distributing knowledge about God. So why do they not come here and inquire? First thing is, unless one is inquisitive to understand God, or Absolute Truth, he has no necessity of guru. But if he is actually serious, then he must go to a person where the dealing is only God, that's all. Just like ordinarily, if anyone wants to purchase some share of company, he goes to the share market and he sees the price of different shares, and he selects. So everything requires little intelligence, then it is all right. Otherwise, you may be cheated. Whatever business you do, you must do it intelligently. But if you are foolishly doing something, you may be cheated. Why we are opening so many centers all over the world? We are giving opportunity people to come and understand about God. Why do they not come here? Then he can make his judgment that "Here is the genuine party." And if one accepts some cheap God, that means he has no understanding about God. He's a rascal. If I say I'm God and somebody accepts me as God, then he's a foolish man. They do not know what is meaning of God. If one wants God, he must know at least what is meant by God. Every scripture, just like in Bible it is said "God has created this universe." So if you come to me and accept me as God, why don't you test whether I have created another universe like this? Why you accept a cheap God who hasn't done anything? Simply he's bluff, and he says that "I am God." So why do you accept such God? Hmm? Why should we accept a cheap God? Everything requires intelligence. If you are not intelligent, then every transaction you may be cheated. Everyone has heard God is great. So great means there should be nobody equal to Him and nobody greater than Him. That is greatness. So test that man whether he has no competitor, another God. Nowadays there are so many Gods. So God is great, why there is another competitor? This is intelligence.
Devotee (1): Prabhupada? Can one make progress in Krsna consciousness...
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all, whatever we are talking you should understand, then bring another question. Don't puzzle. One question decide. Don't make it whimsical dictionary. It is not good. First of all decide one question clearly.
Dhrstadyumna: So the bona fide guru does not claim to be God, but he gives knowledge of God, and he only deals with God.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is bona fide guru.
Pusta Krsna: A very common occurrence in the Western countries, they say that anyone can be guru. In fact, one Westerner who went to India and came back-he's very popular in the United States todayhe says that everyone is guru and everyone is God.
Prabhupada: And people accept that?
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: Now you discuss this point. Discuss this point.
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, in Bhagavad-gita...
Prabhupada: First of all, you discuss this point, everyone is God and everyone is guru.
Devotee (2): Only if one hears from the right authority can one be guru. Spiritual knowledge is descending.
Pusta Krsna: The premise of the Vedas is that there's a creator of everything.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Pusta Krsna: There's a creator of everything. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Origin of everything. The premise of these so-called spiritual masters...
Prabhupada: No, this is a common sense. If everyone is God, then what is the necessity of finding out a guru? Guru means who explains about God. Everyone is God, then what is the use of explanation? There is no need of guru.
Devotee (2): How can God be controlled by His own energy, illusory energy?
Prabhupada: So many things. Foolish men can accept that, "Everyone is God, everyone is guru." That is foolish man's proposition and accepted by fools.
Devotee (2): It is explained in Back to Godhead magazine that (indistinct) serve Krsna, serve God. If someone tells you that he is guru (indistinct).
Pusta Krsna: So to accept a spiritual master must mean that one is in ignorance and one is enlightened.
Prabhupada: For ignorance there is no need of guru. An ignorant cannot inquire about God. Intelligent man can inquire about God.
Guest: We have to pick up our children. Thank you. [break]
Prabhupada: Pick up children from a school? Do you know him?
Devotee (2): They're from Wheeling.
Dhrstadyumna: Once you said, Srila Prabhupada, "If you are God, what will you do when I kick on your face?" Because if God is creating the sun, such a great planet in the sky, thousands of tons of energy, so if they are the source of the sun, but "What can they do if I kick in their face? Nothing. So how is that God?" Krsna, when..., someone was, Paundraka, he was saying he was God, He said, "All right, hold My cakra." And He took off his head. So to these false Gods we can say "What will you do if we kick you in the face? You cannot save yourself."
Prabhupada: That is the proper treatment. (laughter)
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, there is one common philosophy also held by a lot of religious groups that God can be understood directly from within, and that no guru or spiritual master is necessary. If I desire to approach God, and if He's all-powerful, He can instruct me from within. They feel like this. Therefore they dispute our claim that we understand God in a different way, that you need a genuine spiritual master. And yet when we approach them, one man will say he has God within his heart and he understands God in this way, and another man is receiving instruction from God from within the heart, and yet he's saying another thing.
Prabhupada: So?
Devotee (2): Yet, they continue to claim like that, so...
Pusta Krsna: Yes, when God teaches Arjuna... His realization from within should be the same as Krsna is teaching to Arjuna. It should be confirmed by sastra.
Dhrstadyumna: He was saying that these people say "God is instructing me from within," but they all have different philosophies.
Prabhupada: But he's a rascal, and who accepts him, he's a rascal. How do you think that God is speaking to him? How do you accept it? How do you accept that God is speaking to him?
Devotee (2): Well, I don't accept it.
Prabhupada: But you are advocating. Why do you accept this?
Devotee (2): He would say that he has turned his...
Prabhupada: He would say, but you must know that he's talking foolish. How God can talk with him? What is the condition? Therefore you have to read books.
Prabhupada: No. God talks with whom? That is said. Tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam [Bg. 10.10]. Those who have already become devotee of God and engaged in His service, He talks with him. Not he's a third-class fool. He doesn't talk with him. It is clearly stated, tesam satata-yuktanam [Bg. 10.10], one who is twenty-four-hours engaged in the service of the Lord, with love and faith, God talks with him. That is clearly stated. How do you understand that God is talking with him? A rascal fool, who has no business with God? God talks with devotee, very sincere devotee who is already engaged in God's service. He talks with him.
Pusta Krsna: But then he might say "But I love God."
Prabhupada: He might say, that is another thing. The standard is this. He may say-he's a rascal, he can say so many nonsense. That is not the standard. He says that "God is talking with me." So I have to see whether he's a candidate with whom God can talk. The formula is tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam [Bg. 10.10]. "One who is twenty-four-hours engaged in My service with love and faith, God talks with him." So first of all see whether he's twenty-four-hours engaged in God's service with love and faith. Then you can understand, "Yes, God is talking with him." But he has no preliminary qualification, if he says "I can talk with God," he's a nonsense. That means because you are a nonsense you are talking about him that God talks with him. You do not know with whom God talks. So you are nonsense also. You accept him, "Yes, he may be talking with God." How he can talk? That means you are also nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks. Why do you accept such proposition? If some store keeper says "I have passed M.A., L.L.D.," and I have to accept that? You must know with whom God talks. That means you are nonsense. You are accepting nonsensically. And the person who is constantly engaged in God's service, unless he's trained up by a spiritual master, how can he be engaged? So without spiritual master, one cannot be engaged in devotional service, and without devotional service, nobody's eligible to talk with God. So that nonsense talking, that without spiritual master God talking, and he has become perfect, this is all nonsense. One who believes, he is also nonsense. He does not know God. To raise such question means nonsense. You do not know with whom God talks, therefore you have brought this question. Otherwise, you would have kicked immediately. It is impossible. What do you think?
Devotee (2): I understand what you are saying.
Prabhupada: Then why do you raise this question?
Devotee (2): It's a matter of argument also.
Prabhupada: Argument? Why do you bring such nonsense argument, waste time? Don't waste time. You are ignorant, you are accepting. Don't remain ignorant. It is common sense. Is it so easy that one can talk with God? If some common man says "Just now I went to Mr. Ford, and talked with him. I'm coming back from him." So any gentleman will believe that? So these are our insufficiency that we believe such things. We are not properly trained up. Simply waste time. That's not good. He may talk nonsense. Why I shall accept nonsense? The same example. If somebody comes, "Now I'm just coming from talking with Mr. Ford, the President." Shall I have to believe? He's a common man. How he can talk with President Ford? If I believe, then I am also nonsense. Where is that?
Hari-sauri: We don't have a fan in here... I have to bring a fan from somewhere else.
Prabhupada: No, no, bring, you can bring some soft cloth. Why this is, you bring some soft cloth. So don't indulge such nonsense question. You must personally understand. That is knowledge. If you are reading Bhagavad-gita, how you can accept nonsense, he says that "I can talk with Krsna without spiritual master." It is absurd proposition. So why you should accept such absurd proposition unless you are also another absurd? If you knew that it is not possible, you "You rascal." Don't talk with him. Don't waste time. But you also do not know with whom God talks. Clearly stated. Tesam satata-yuktanam [Bg. 10.10]. Tesam evanukampartham [Bg. 10.11]. Why don't you read all these proposals? With whom God talks? Hmm? Why did you not?
Devotee (2): I'm familiar with those verses.
Prabhupada: Then why did you not say "God talks with such and such person, but you are not such and such. Why you are talking nonsense? That means you are cheating. But you cannot cheat me. I know." So you must know. You must know with whom God talks.
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, does this mean that we should not speak with those who ask such questions?
Prabhupada: But you must know how to answer it! Otherwise, chant Hare Krsna. Why there are so many books? You do not read it, you do not know how to answer it even. That means you do not read. If you knew that God does not speak with rascals or anyone ordinary, then you would have immediately replied, "God does not speak to you. It is not possible. It requires qualification." Why should you believe it and waste your time?
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu prays that one should be more tolerant than a tree, devoid of all sense of false prestige. How do we lose that desire for false prestige?
Prabhupada: Answer.
Pusta Krsna: Desire for false prestige? First of all, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. The heart is full of so many dirty things, and basically all of these revolve around the bodily concept of lifeI think I'm this body. Therefore we're desiring honor, we don't like to be dishonored; and looking for so many gains, we don't like to lose something. So there are so many dualities that exist: respect and disrespect, honor and dishonor. So when you become purified, freed from the bodily concept of life by chanting, then naturally honor and dishonor, they are not very important; they are only in relationship to the body.
Prabhupada: Yes. Now argue, whether you are satisfied with his answer. If not, say it. In this way, discuss. Are you satisfied with his answer?
Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Kulasekhara: Srila Prabhupada, it says that the Caitanya-caritamrta is the postgraduate study of Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: Hmm, hear him. What does he say?
Pusta Krsna: Srimad-Bhagavatam is the postgraduate study...
Devotees: Caitanya-caritamrta, postgraduate study.
Kulasekhara: So if we're very attracted to reading Caitanya caritamrta now, but we haven't finished Srimad-Bhagavatam as yet, should we wait until we have studied Srimad-Bhagavatam thoroughly?
Prabhupada: It does not mean that one who is not postgraduate, he cannot read other books. Spiritual life is not a stereotype like that. But one who is not postgraduate, it is little difficult for him to understand the statement of... Just like in the beginning of Caitanya-caritamrta, it is said, na caitanyat krsnaj jagati para-tattvam param iha, that there is no superior truth than Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So if you have not studied Srimad-Bhagavatam, you'll not understand this statement. If you understand, "Yes, Caitanya is the supreme truth," then it is to be understood that you have graduated. And if you are not, then it will be difficult for you to understand.
Kulasekhara: Then the more we understand Srimad-Bhagavatam, the more we'll understand the Caitanya-caritamrta.
Prabhupada: Yes, and if you understood Bhagavatam thoroughly, then you can understand Caitanya-caritamrta. But if you have not understood Bhagavatam, then you cannot understand Caitanya caritamrta. The simple statement, na caitanyat krsnat para-tattvam param iha. Where is Caitanya-caritamrta? Bring.
Pusta Krsna: Which volume, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: First volume. That means you are not reading, you simply are referring. This is the difficulty. Without thoroughly reading something, we bring so many questions. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has therefore forbidden, bahu sastra na pore. Don't bother yourself reading so many books at a time. You'll be puzzled. Find out this verse, yad advaitam brahmopanisadi...
Pusta Krsna: I don't believe there's an index in this first volume.
Prabhupada: In the first chapter you'll find.
Dhrstadyumna: Seventeenth verse? "What is described in the Upanisads..."
yad advaitam brahmopanisadi tad apy asya tanu-bha
ya atmantaryami purusa iti so 'syamsa-vibhavah
sad-aisvaryaih purno ya iha bhagavan sa svayam ayam
na caitanyat krsnaj jagati para-tattvam param iha
[Cc. Adi 1.3]
"What the Upanisads describe as the impersonal Brahman is but the effulgence of His body, and the Lord known as the Supersoul is but His localized plenary portion. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna Himself, full with six opulences. He is the Absolute Truth, and no other truth is greater than or equal to Him."
Prabhupada: This is the beginning of Caitanya-caritamrta. So will anyone be able to understand this verse? Hmm? Everything is stated there, what is Caitanya. Will everyone be able to understand it? That is the proof that he's not graduate. If he is graduate, then he should understand. Therefore it is postgraduate.
Kuladri: One must understand Bhagavad-gita before Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Prabhupada: Yes. It is stated there yad advaitam brahma upanisadi. That means he must understand the Upanisads. He must understand what is Brahman. So without understanding this, how he can understand Caitanya-caritamrta? It will be explained there, but the fact is this. What is that? Is there any explanation?
Pusta Krsna: No, there's no purport to this verse.
Prabhupada: So further on there is explanation. Find out that.
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada? How does one know when he has the understanding of the Bhagavad-gita?
Prabhupada: What does he say? Answer him.
Pusta Krsna: What did you say?
Devotee (2): How does one know when he has the understanding of Bhagavad-gita?
Dhrstadyumna: One has understood Bhagavad-gita who surrenders to Krsna, because Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], that "The essence of all knowledge is to surrender unto Me, to give up all other duties." So one who takes that instruction as life and soul, he has understood Bhagavad-gita. Is that all right?
Pusta Krsna: The same verse again in the Second Chapter."The compilers of the Upanisads speak very highly of the impersonal Brahman. The Upanisads, which are considered the most elevated portion of the Vedic literatures, are meant for persons who desire to get free from material association and who therefore approach a bona fide spiritual master for enlightenment. The prefix upa indicates that one must receive knowledge about the Absolute Truth from a spiritual master. One who has faith in his spiritual master actually receives transcendental instruction, and as his attachment for material life slackens, he is able to advance on the spiritual path. Knowledge of the transcendental science of the Upanisads..."
Prabhupada: Where is that boy? You are hearing?
Devotee (2): Yes, Prabhupada.
Pusta Krsna: "Knowledge of the transcendental science of the Upanisads can free one from the entanglement of existence in the material world, and when thus liberated, one can be elevated to the spiritual kingdom of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by advancement in spiritual life. The beginning of spiritual enlightenment is realization of impersonal Brahman. Such realization is effected by gradual negation of material variegatedness. Impersonal Brahman realization is the partial, distant experience of the Absolute Truth that one achieves through the rational approach. It is compared to one's seeing a hill from a distance and taking it to be a smoky cloud. A hill is not a smoky cloud, but it appears to be one from a distance because of our imperfect vision. In imperfect or smoky realization of the Absolute Truth, spiritual variegatedness is conspicuous by its absence. This experience is therefore called advaita-vada, or realization of the oneness of the Absolute. The impersonal glowing effulgence of Brahman consists only of the personal bodily rays of the Supreme Godhead, Sri Krsna. Since Sri Gaurasundara, or Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, is identical with Sri Krsna Himself, the Brahman effulgence consists of the rays of His transcendental body. Similarly, the Supersoul, which is called the Paramatma, is a plenary representation of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The antaryami, the Supersoul in everyone's heart, is the controller of all living entities. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita, wherein Lord Krsna says sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah: "I am situated in everyone's heart." (Bg. 15.15) Bhagavad-gita also states; bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29], indicating that the Supreme Lord, acting in His expansion as the Supersoul, is the proprietor of everything. Similarly, the Brahma-samhita states, andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham: [Bs. 5.35] the Lord is present everywhere within the heart of every living entity and within each and every atom as well. Thus by this Supersoul feature the Lord is all-pervading. Furthermore, Lord Caitanya is also the master of all wealth, strength, fame, beauty, knowledge and renunciation because He is Sri Krsna Himself. He is described as purna, or complete. In the feature of Lord Caitanya, the Lord is an ideal renouncer, just as Sri Rama was an ideal king. He accepted the order of sannyasa and exemplified exceedingly wonderful principles in His own life. No one can compare to Him in the order of sannyasa. Although in Kali-yuga acceptance of the sannyasa order is generally forbidden, Lord Caitanya accepted it because He is complete in renunciation. Others cannot imitate Him but can only follow in His footsteps as far as possible. Those who are unfit for this order of life are strictly forbidden by the injunctions of the sastras to accept it. Lord Caitanya, however, is complete in renunciation as well as all other opulences. He is therefore the highest principle of the Absolute Truth. By an analytical study of the truth of Lord Caitanya, one will find that He is not different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna; no one is greater than or even equal to Him. In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krsna says to Arjuna, mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya: [Bg. 7.7] 'O conquerer of wealth (Arjuna), there is no truth superior to Me.' Thus it is here confirmed that there is no truth higher than Lord Sri Krsna Caitanya. The impersonal Brahman is the goal of those who cultivate the study of books of transcendental knowledge, and the Supersoul is the goal of those who perform the yoga practices. One who knows the Supreme Personality of Godhead surpasses realization of both Brahman and Paramatma, because Bhagavan is the ultimate platform of absolute knowledge. The Personality of Godhead is the complete form of sac-cidananda (full life, knowledge and bliss). By realization of the sat portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited existence), one realizes the impersonal Brahman of the Lord. By realization of the cit portion of the Complete Whole (unlimited knowledge) one can realize the localized aspect of the Lord, Paramatma. But neither of these partial realizations of the Complete Whole can help one realize ananda, or complete bliss. Without such realization of ananda, knowledge of the Absolute Truth is incomplete. This verse of Caitanya-caritamrta by Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami is confirmed by a parallel statement in the Tattva-sandarbha by Srila Jiva Gosvami. In the Eighth Part of Tattva-sandarbha it is said that the Absolute Truth is sometimes approached as impersonal Brahman, which, although spiritual, is only a partial representation of the Absolute Truth. Narayana, the predominating Deity in Vaikuntha, is to be known as an expansion of Sri Krsna, but Sri Krsna is the Supreme Absolute Truth, the object of the transcendental love of all living entities."
Prabhupada: So is it clear? (laughs) It is not so easy. Therefore it is postgraduate.
Pusta Krsna: Can these things be understood theoretically, Srila Prabhupada, or is realization required?
Prabhupada: Realization required. What is the use of theoretical knowledge?
Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, can realization be had through service without theoretical understanding?
Prabhupada: This whole science is understood through service only. Everything becomes revealed. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah [BRS. 1.2.234]. Revelation. Everything is revelation. Unless one is very sincere servant, there is no revelation.
Dhrstadyumna: Srila Prabhupada, it described a gradual process of realizing Krsna, but does the devotee go through these levels of understanding Brahman then Paramatma then Bhagavan? Does the devotee gradually go through these levels, or does he immediately realize Brahman when his service is perfect?
Prabhupada: That depends on his capacity. (directing someone:) Just on the head of the...
Devotee (2): Maharaja Kirtanananda said that our actual realization comes through our actions. So we are building this New Vrindaban we are, actually..., this is taken to be our preaching or our life and soul.
Dhrstadyumna: What is your question?
Devotee (2): My question is how do we...
Devotee (3): Prabhupada, his question is will one become realized by continually engaging in devotional service under the direction of a bona fide representative of the spiritual master?
Dhrstadyumna: The question is that his service is here in New Vrindaban under Kirtanananda Maharaja. Will serving the representative of the spiritual master..., is that as good as serving the spiritual master? Will it get the same result?
Pusta Krsna: I don't think that was the question. No? At least, I understand the question to be: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth?
Dhrstadyumna: That is the Absolute Truth.
Pusta Krsna: Is service to the Supreme Lord the same as realization of the Absolute Truth?
Prabhupada: Yes. Absolute means there is no difference. Krsna and Krsna's service, same. So discuss it further.
Devotee: Is that to say that if one-brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]that if one simply goes on serving, engaging in all sorts of different activities for the satisfaction of Krsna, but he never, in this lifetime at least, has realization of Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan...?
Prabhupada: What is the difficulty? Everything is explained. By seeing the sun one can understand the sunshine, the sun globe and the sun-god. There are three things. Within the sun globe, there is the sun-god. It is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "I spoke to Vivasvata." So there is a person Vivasvata, and the globe is there, we see, and the sunshine is there. So what is the difficulty to understand? Three things are there. The person within the sun globe, Vivasvata, is there, otherwise how Krsna could speak with him? He says, imam vivasvate yogam, "unto Vivasvata I spoke." So there is a person. And we can see the globe, and we can see the sunshine. Is there any difficulty? So similarly, the Brahman is the sunshine, light, and Paramatma is the sun globe, and Bhagavan is the sun-god. This is, the sun is one example. From this example, we can understand the Absolute. Where is the difficulty? (aside:) Sit down properly. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. As heat and light, all of them are the same... In the sunshine there is heat and light, in the sun globe there is heat and light, and within the sun globe there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. You can tolerate the heat and light of the sunshine, but if you go to the sun globe you'll be finished. Temperature's so high, it requires a special qualification. Similarly, from heat and light point of view, Brahman, Paramatma, Bhagavan, the same. Everywhere there is heat and light, but the temperature is different. So one who understands Brahman, he cannot understand Paramatma. He understands, but not as thoroughly. Similarly, one who understands Paramatma, he can (not) understand Bhagavan, but if you understand Bhagavan, then you understand Paramatma, Brahman, everything.
Kulasekhara: So we should simply try to understand Krsna?
Prabhupada: Yes. No. Try to understand everything, but understanding Krsna, you understand everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam eva vijnatam bhavanti. And because you do not understand Krsna, therefore you do not understand Brahman, you do not understand Paramatma. But if you understand Krsna, then it is automatically understood. We have not understood Brahman, Paramatma, because we have not understood Krsna properly. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8], "I am the source of everything." So Brahman is also from Krsna, Paramatma is also from Krsna. And so other Bhagavansthere are so many Bhagavans alsothey are from Krsna. So if you understand Krsna you can understand everything. And as soon as you say that you have not understood it, therefore you have not understood Krsna. They cannot understand, just like Mayavadis, they do not understand Krsna, therefore they do not understand Brahman also. And therefore they fall down, because they have not understood either Brahman or Krsna. Patanty adhah. This is stated in the sastra. Anadrta-yusmad-anghrayah, because they have not understood Krsna, even they have gone up to the Brahman, they cannot stand there; they fall down. Again they come to the material world. The Mayavadis, they say, brahma satyma jagan mithya, "Brahman is truth, and this material world is false." They take sannyasa, but after some time they fall down, again take to other businesses than Brahman in the material world. Just like our Vivekananda. He came to the Western countries to preach Vedanta, and he has advertised that "Whole America has become Vedantist." The proof of Vedanta is when he returned to India he became very enthusiastic to open hospitals like the Christian missionaries. So if the material world is false, so why he's trying to open hospitals? Brahma satyam jagan mithya. Jagat is mithya. So why in the mithya platform he's taking credit by opening hospitals?
Dhrstadyumna: Well, as long as people are suffering, they can't realize that they are God.
Prabhupada: So you cannot stop the suffering. You are unable. You are also suffering from the same disease. So don't say that jagat mithya. If they are suffering, that's a fact. Then how do you say it is mithya, it is false? If it is mithya, then why you are affected by the suffering? There are so many questions. That means not realization. Contradictory. If you feel the suffering, then why you call it mithya? It is fact. Why do you say it is mithya? That means you have no realization. You are accepting suffering as mithya. We say suffering is not mithya, it is fact, but if you want to save from suffering, then you get out of this material world. We don't say that, that suffering is mithya or this world is mithya. We don't say that. We are offering this flower to Krsna, not as mithya; it is a means of service. Why shall I say it is mithya? By offering... Krsna says patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. By offering a little flower. How can I say this is mithya? Mayavadi's philosophy, it is mithya. With mithya we can approach the satya? By hundreds of false we can make one truth? Krsna says that "If you offer Me a little flower," so how can I say this is mithya? It is not mithya. It is satya. When it is satya? When it is offered to Krsna. And when you take it for your sense gratification, that is mithya. That is mithya. You cannot enjoy it. If you enjoy it, then go to hell. If you offer it to Krsna, you go to Him. So how can I say it is mithya? You cannot approach Krsna with something mithya. Then Krsna becomes mithya. There are so many things to be studied. We don't say like that. We find there is relationship of Krsna with everything. When we find this beautiful rose, we find the intelligence of Krsna. By Krsna's intelligence it has come out so nice, fragrant, beautiful. They say it is made by nature. That is nonsense. Krsna's says mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. So under Krsna's direction nature has made it so beautiful. That is a fact. Therefore I find there is hand of Krsna in this flower. So Krsna has made this, this is Krsna's property, it should be offered to Krsna. That is bhakti. We are not offering something mithya to Krsna. It is fact.
It is made by Krsna. If you say, "No, no, I don't touch this flower," so what is credit there? You have not prepared it. You touch or not touch, it doesn't matter. If you say, "No, no, it is material. I don't touch." You may not touch it, but you do not know it is not material, it is spiritual, it is made by Krsna. So you have to study deeply. Everything is... Aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8]. Krsna says, "I am the source of everything." So the flower is also from Krsna. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], from whom everything is emanating. The flower is also within the everything. How can I say it is false? This is Krsna consciousness.
Kuladri: Srila Prabhupada, you said we can't understand Brahman unless we understand Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is real understanding. And without Krsna, if you understand brahma satyam jagan mithya, then you fall down.
Kuladri: But it seems then you have to come to the full understanding before it does any good.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means those who are simply trying to understand Brahman, they are not understanding.
Kuladri: Then what does it mean gradual process, gradual advancement in transcendental realization?
Prabhupada: Gradual process, just like you are here in the sunshine. So if you are intelligent, you'll understand that the temperature in the sunshine and the temperature in the sun globe is different. So Brahman understanding is the lowest stage. Paramatma understanding little higher. And Bhagavan understanding is complete. That is gradual. And these Mayavadis, they do not try to understand Krsna. They are satisfied only with understanding Brahman. Therefore they fall down. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho 'nadrta [SB 10.2.32]. Because there is no standing. The impersonal feature, that the sky... Go very high in the sky, you do not see anymore this planet earth, neither you see anything, you'll be mad. Then you will find out how to go back again. You cannot stay there in that condition. Although they say "so'ham," no, you cannot stay there. Just imagine, if you go very high and you do not see any other thing, only sky. Will you be able to stay in that condition? You go in the sea. When you do not find anything, all water, you become very much anxious, "Where is land? Where is land?" And as soon as you have a glimpse of land, island, you become very, "Oh, there is land." So this is impersonal understanding. It is simply imagination, that simply by Brahman understanding he'll be happy. No, that is not possible.
Devotee (1): Srila Prabhupada, then even Brahman has to be understood in relationship to Krsna?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Devotee (1): Even Brahman has to be understood...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is real understanding.
Dhrstadyumna: Brahmano hi pratisthaham.
Prabhupada: Hmm. Now wherefrom this fragrance have come?
Devotees: From the earth.
Prabhupada: Get out this fragrance from earth, you scientist. By Krsna's manipulation here is fragrance. Everyone knows it has come from earth. If there is, in the earth, there is no such fragrance, wherefrom it came? So therefore it is there, it is understood, but you get it out.
Dhrstadyumna: Well, we can take the chemicals and mix them, produce fragrance.
Prabhupada: Take the chemicals?
Dhrstadyumna: Yes. We can analyze the chemical structure and make...
Prabhupada: No, the flower has taken directly, without any chemical addition. You do that. It is a fact the flavor is there within the earth, you take the flavor, extract the flavor. Not only this flavor, there are different flavors, all, everything there. There are so many flowers coming out. Huh? Sarva-kama dugha-mahi. Mahi means earth. Everything's coming out from the earth. But not in your attempt. It is Krsna's attempt that He can take out. Out of so many different flavors, everything is there within the earth, but Krsna's manipulation takes the different colors, different flavors, different bodies, everything. That is Krsna's manipulation. Mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10]. Just like in our kitchen we have got the ingredients, rice, dahl, atta, ghee. But the expert can prepare hundreds of preparations. That expert is Krsna. And if one is not expert, even the ingredients are there, he'll spoil everything. He'll mix the atta with water then put ghee and then put rice. (laughter) This is the... We have to become expert. If you become expert, then you'll do very nice puri, dahl, rice, ah... There are so many varieties. You enjoy. And if you are not expert, you'll spoil. So Krsna is expert and Krsna bhakta is expert because he takes lessons from Krsna. So for them this is not mithya. Rascals who spoil it, they think it is mithya. He could not do anything. He mix with a conglomeration, and because he could not get any result, he said mithya, disappointment. And one who knows, he knows how to utilize it. Just like we are utilizing the cows in so many nice preparations, and these rascals killing them. Finished.
Dhrstadyumna: And then they want to say that this is mithya, that Krsna consciousness is mithya.
Prabhupada: Whatever they say, practically see.
Dhrstadyumna: Yes. They do not know how to use the cow, only kill.
Devotee (4): You said that is the sour grape philosophy.
Prabhupada: Grape philosophy, what is that?
Hari-sauri: Sour grape.
Dhrstadyumna: The fox...
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dhrstadyumna: ...wanted to taste the grapes, but he couldn't, so he said they are no good.
Prabhupada: You do not know expert. So if we remain under the guidance of Krsna, then we also become expert to some extent. And Krsna's expertly service or intelligence we can see in the flower, so many flowers. So why shall I not take shelter of Krsna? Sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. That is intelligence. That is intelligence. We see Krsna's expertly manipulation. So if we take Krsna's shelter, at least we shall get little intelligence. Dadami buddhi-yogam tam. "He gets the intelligence directly from Me." And that is wanted. Why it is foolishly dealing with this rice, dahl and make spoil everything? Be little expert from Krsna's instructions and make everything nice. Krsna personally teaches how to deal with cows. He never showed the example of killing the cows. He maintained the cows, the calf. He was distributing butter even to the monkeys. And the pasturing ground became muddy on account of milk dropping from the bags. This is Krsna. And He is personally taking care. So why the Krsna's devotees should not do it? Give protection to the cows and utilize the milk. That is one of the items of Krsna consciousness. We are not keeping hogs and dogs. We are keeping cows, because we are Krsna conscious. Krsna did not keep so many dogs as nowadays so many big, big men, they are keeping dogs. Krsna did not do so. If we follow Krsna's instruction, then we are perfect. Practical example. We have not invent. If we simply follow what Krsna has instructed us, then we become perfect.
Devotee (5): How can we perfectly follow only what Krsna has said? The other evening you said that the patient he is always a fool and a rascal.
Prabhupada: Answer him.
Dhrstadyumna: But one should not remain a fool and a rascal. If the doctor has given the formula, you have to follow it. He says don't eat this but stay in bed, sleep so much. You have to do it, otherwise you will stay sick.
Prabhupada: You'll remain a rascal if you don't follow the instruction. So what do you want? You remain a rascal or make advance? What you want? Huh?
Devotee (5): To become advanced.
Prabhupada: Then follow. If you willfully remain a rascal, that is the difference. Otherwise, if you follow you'll become advanced. Everywhere you'll find Krsna's intelligence. He says mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10]. They explain, "Nature." But they cannot explain what is nature. We can explain. Nature is a system which is being handled by Krsna. That is real understanding. Nature, we can see that from nature this flower is coming, this flower is coming. But why not...? They say accidentally. If it is accident, why in the plant of this flower sometimes rose is not coming accidentally? And why from the rose plant not accidentally this flower is coming? So where is the question of accident? You have never experienced such accident. The same plant, the same flower is coming. Where is a proof by accident another flower has come? Where is the proof? So why do they say like that, accident?
Dhrstadyumna: Because they don't want to accept God.
Prabhupada: No, no, accept God or not, where the accident theory comes?
Dhrstadyumna: Well if they don't give some explanation, then they'll be considered fools.
Prabhupada: Some explanation, they have to give you something foolish explanation? So foolish man will accept that, not a sane man. If you say "By accident," then I'll say why not accident in the history of the world there is a rose plant some other flower has come out? If man has come from monkey, why not coming now? So they give so may foolish propositions, only fools will accept. Anyone who has a little reasoning power they will not, they'll understand that these are all crazy fellows, talking all nonsense. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. We have got little formula to understand that if one is not Krsna conscious he has no good qualifications. He cannot say anything as a qualified person. That is the test. Mudha. Immediately take: a mudha. Let the mudhas speak all nonsense. Why should we waste our time? This is Krsna consciousness. As soon as we find somebody not Krsna conscious, not a devotee of Krsna, we take, reject, he's a rascal, that's all. And he is rascal. Not only blindly we are rejecting, but with reason. (end)

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