Room Conversation

July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.
Prabhupada: You economically prove that Krsna consciousness is simple and inexpensive life.
Devotees: Yes, jaya, mercy.
Prabhupada: Food, diet, living condition, healthy, hygienic, everything. You prove that this is the best way of life. That's a fact. From all sides, prove that Krsna consciousness movement is essential for the human society, to make them happy in this and the next life. That is a fact.
Svarupa Damodara: Prabhupada? Today I want to discuss about the manifestation of the matter from pradhana. Now Lord Kapiladeva describes that pradhana is the undifferentiated sum total of material elements.
Prabhupada: Mahat-tattva?
Svarupa Damodara: No, pradhana. Then from pradhana, by the action of time this mahat-tattva is generated. Now we were a little confused about that. He said by the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency there is hiranmaya, is produced within mahat-tattva, and this hiranmaya is self-effulgent.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Svarupa Damodara: It's effulgent.
Prabhupada: Hiranmaya?
Hari-sauri: Effulgent.
Prabhupada: Oh, effulgent, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Now our point is whether this hiranmaya... In the mahat-tattva, the relationship between these two and pradhana, how does that relate each other? It's not very clear in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, you're not very clear, this point. It said from pradhana, by the impregnation with the Lord's internal potency, the hiranmaya is produced. That's actually the beginning of the injection of jivas within these material modes.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is little complicated. So is it not clear from the Srimad-Bhagavatam?
Svarupa Damodara: It is little difficult to understand the phenomenal descriptions.
Prabhupada: In the Caitanya-caritamrta? Nityananda-tattva? You can read it, you'll get some clue.
Svarupa Damodara: We also get some clue from First Canto, Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the purusa incarnations, where it explains about tattva. But there is a difference between... Now our understanding is this: pradhana, both pradhana and mahat-tattva, they are eternal, though they are material manifestations.
Prabhupada: Everything eternal.
Svarupa Damodara: No, eternal in the sense that it's different from prakrti. Now prakrti is, when it is completely manifested...
Prabhupada: Prakrti, pradhana, purusa, these things are little complicated.
Svarupa Damodara: But we wanted to clarify this, because this is the nice thing that we can show that matter comes from life. This is the source.
Prabhupada: Yes. Sa iksata, sa asrjata, by the glance of Maha-Visnu... Eko narayana asit. In the beginning, Narayana was there. There was no Lord Siva, no neither Brahma. This mantra was there. So originally by the glance...
Svarupa Damodara: By the glance of Visnu.
Prabhupada: We can prove it that how by the sunshine everything is growing. How it is? Your molecule and so on, so on... You can describe. Actually, from the sunshine the trees are growing, leaves are coming. As soon as there is no sunshine, immediately they fall down, the leaves, and the tree becomes without any leaves. How this happens? The same process. The sunshine produces so many things. Similarly, by the glance of the Supreme, the material nature becomes agitated and the three gunas become manifest. In this way these are described there. The same process. How from the sunshine the leaves are coming out, what are the molecular changes, if you can study the same process.
Svarupa Damodara: (indistinct) ...with this hiranmaya, the relationship between mahat-tattva and the hiranmaya is clear, then I think we can have some idea. So we are little confused on this very point. It is also said pradhana is the twenty-four elements that doesn't contain time.
Prabhupada: Pradhana is the ingredient.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, it is the sum total of the unmanifested material elements. Now from pradhana actually mahat-tattva is manifested. In mahat-tattva there is a basic difference that there is some, already some manifestations in mahat-tattva.
Rupanuga: Categories.
Prabhupada: Total material elements, mahat-tattva.
Rupanuga: Is that differentiated?
Prabhupada: Mahat-tattva is differentiated.
Rupanuga: Different categories?
Svarupa Damodara: The time element is there in mahat-tattva, so it is already twenty-five elements there including time. At this stage also, the impregnation of the Lord's internal potency means that the jivas are already impregnated here from pradhana. So here the living entities are in pure goodness.
Prabhupada: The living entities are always in pure goodness. This material covering is separated. The living entities can be freed from material covering at any moment. Just like water and oil, it is always separated, it does not mix. The Vedic mantra also says asango 'yam purusah. Actually, it is not mixed, but it is covered. That covering can be taken away at any moment simply by Krsna consciousness. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. I think in First Canto, that description you try to understand, you'll get.
Svarupa Damodara: Now in the First Canto in the Srimad-Bhagavatam also it is not very clear.
Prabhupada: Then Second Canto, the development of Srsti-tattva, there you'll get.
Svarupa Damodara: I think there is also reference in the Bhagavad-gita, this hiranmaya, because sometimes it's also called Brahman.
Prabhupada: Brahmajyoti. What?
Prabhupada: Brahman, yes. He's called Hiranya-garbha, Brahma.
Svarupa Damodara: It's also said in this state, pradhana state, the cause and effect are not clearly manifested.
Prabhupada: :Caitanya caritamrta, did you refer Nityananda-tattva?
Svarupa Damodara: No, I'm still...
Prabhupada: Read it, you'll get clue there. Maybe in the Third Chapter. Bring up here. We shall... First part, take it.
Rupanuga(?): Adi-lila?
Prabhupada: First part, take it.
Vrsakapi(?): Chapter Three?
Prabhupada: In Muslim country, Christians, or the Americans preaching Hindu religion, it has been taken very seriously in Iran. Three different elements: preaching center is Muhammadan, and the preacher is American, and the cult Hindu. (laughs) So the princess of Iran and her husband, they are, up to date, they are very much appreciating. The daughter of Shah.
Svarupa Damodara: What is the verse, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No, you read the contents.
Rupanuga: Or the index maybe.
Svarupa Damodara: No. Chapter Three. "In this chapter the author has fully discussed the reason for the descent of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krsna, after displaying His pastimes as Lord Krsna, thought it wise to make His advent in the form of a devotee to explain personally the transcendental mellow reciprocations of service and love between Himself and His servants, friends, parents and fiancees. According to the Vedic literature, the foremost occupational duty for humanity in this age of Kali is nama-sankirtana, or congregational chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The incarnation for this age especially preaches this process, but only Krsna Himself can explain the confidential loving service performed in the four principal varieties of loving affairs between the Supreme Lord and His devotees. Lord Krsna therefore personally appeared, with His plenary portions, as Lord Caitanya. As stated in this chapter, only for that purpose did Lord Krsna appear personally in Navadvipa in the form of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Krsnadasa Kaviraja has herein presented much authentic evidence from Srimad-Bhagavatam and other scriptures to substantiate the identity of..."
Prabhupada: You are reading Caitanya Mahaprabhu. About Nityananda, see the contents? No, in the beginning. Chapter where is contents. Nityananda-tattva.
Rupanuga: "The Glories of Lord Nityananda-Balarama."
Prabhupada: Fifth Chapter?
Svarupa Damodara: "This chapter is chiefly devoted to describing the essential nature and glories of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. Lord Sri Krsna is the absolute Personality of Godhead, and His first expansion in a form for pastimes is Sri Balarama. Beyond the limitation of this material world is the spiritual sky, paravyoma, which has many spiritual planets, the supreme of which is called Krsnaloka. Krsnaloka, the abode of Krsna, has three divisions, which are known as Dvaraka, Mathura and Gokula. In that abode the Personality of Godhead expands Himself into four plenary portions-Krsna, Balarama, Pradyumna (the transcendental Cupid) and Aniruddha. They are known as the original quadruple forms. In Krsnaloka is a transcendental place known as Svetadvipa, or Vrndavana. Below Krsnaloka, in the spiritual sky, are the Vaikuntha planets. On each Vaikuntha planet a four-handed Narayana, expanded from the first quadruple manifestation, is present. The Personality of Godhead known as Sri Balarama in Krsnaloka is the original Sankarsana (attracting Deity), and from this Sankarsana expands another Sankarsana, called Maha-Sankarsana, who resides in one of the Vaikuntha planets. By His internal potency, Maha-Sankarsana maintains the transcendental existence of all the planets in the spiritual sky, where all the living beings are eternally liberated souls. The influence of the material energy is conspicuous there by its absence. On those planets the second quadruple manifestation is present. Outside of the Vaikuntha planets is the impersonal manifestation of Sri Krsna, which is known as the Brahmaloka. On the other side of the Brahmaloka is the spiritual karana-samudra, or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Maha-Visnu, the original purusa expansion from Sankarsana. This Maha-Visnu places His glance over the material energy, and by a reflection of His transcendental body He amalgamates Himself within the material elements. As the source of the material elements, the material energy is known as pradhana, and as the source of the manifestations of the material energy it is known as maya. But material nature is inert in that she has no independent power to do anything. She is empowered to make the cosmic manifestation by the glance of Maha-Visnu. Therefore the material energy is not the original cause of the material manifestation. Rather, the transcendental glance of Maha-Visnu over material nature produces that cosmic manifestation."
Prabhupada: So you try to understand this, everything will be clear. Material energy has no power to create. It is this glance that makes material energy energetic. Chemical combination, that alkaline and acid, they create some agitation, effervescence, but it is done by the chemist. He mixes the two liquids and there is effervescence. It is like that. So you read that chapter carefully. You'll solve your problem. (pause)
Svarupa Damodara: It's said in the mahat-tattva when the Lord glances or impregnates, that the glancing...
Prabhupada: That is spiritual. That glancing is spiritual. So matter itself cannot do anything. Aja-jala-stana, aja-jala-stana. The nipples in the throat, neck. As there are some nipples, nipples useless, that is not milk-giving nipples. So nature is creating. They, generally, they say "by nature," but nature has no power. It is matter. When there is glance of Sankarsana or Visnu, that will do.
Svarupa Damodara: In that state, when a living entity's impregnated in this state, it is also said that it is in pure goodness.
Prabhupada: Pure goodness always, it is simply covered.
Svarupa Damodara: This is not the completely manifested yet, but then it says by the contamination of pure goodness by ahankara, then starts material ego. From there, everything is going to manifest. So once we come to material ego then it seems clear.
Prabhupada: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Find out, purusah prakrti-stho hi...
"The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species." How does the contaminated ego or contaminated consciousness differ from false ego?
Prabhupada: Hmm? That is contaminated ego, false ego.
Svarupa Damodara: But we have a subdivision in the Third Canto for internal subtle senses. It is said mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness and this ego is false ego, and another division is contaminated consciousness.
Prabhupada: This is false ego, "I am this matter, I am this body." This is false ego.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, but why it is...
Prabhupada: Ego is there, but this is false ego.
Rupanuga: Then by association with the modes there is contaminated consciousness.
Prabhupada: This false ego develops.
Svarupa Damodara: But still in this verse on 7.26, verse 14, it says there are four internal subtle senses. Now these four senses are mind, intelligence, ego and the contaminated consciousness.
"The internal subtle senses are experienced as having four aspects in the shape of mind, intelligence, ego and contaminated consciousness. Distinctions between them can be made only by different functions, since they represent different characteristics." Purport: "The four internal senses or subtle senses described herein are defined by different characteristics. When pure consciousness is polluted by material contamination, and identification with the body becomes predominant, this is called false ego. Consciousness is the function of the soul, and therefore behind consciousness there is soul. When consciousness is polluted by material contamination, this is called ahankara."
Svarupa Damodara: Isthis ego mentioned hereis it a false ego? That's what I understand.
Prabhupada: Not real. Real ego is "I am servant of Krsna." Aham brahmasmi.
Rupanuga: Is there false ego in different modes? Like false ego in the mode of ignorance, false in the mode of passion or goodness?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: So the consciousness can be contaminated according to the mode in which it's associating.
Prabhupada: Yes, prakrti-jan gunan.
Rupanuga: Yes. So I am identifying with my body in any mode, that is false ego. But my consciousness is contaminated by a particular mode. May be passion, may be ignorance, may be goodness. So then my consciousness is contaminated. So false ego is the base of all material activities, but I may be acting in a certain mode, contaminated in a certain way. Is that right?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: That is what it means.
Svarupa Damodara: Everything clear, these four internal subtle senses?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: What else, you got?
Svarupa Damodara: Actually consciousness is a symptom of life, so when we say contaminated consciousness, the quality of life is there, but somehow...
Prabhupada: That is mixed with material modes.
Rupanuga: Originally it is goodness. Very... Pure goodness, you say. Everything in the beginning is...
Prabhupada: I give the example, just like water falling from the sky. It is crystal clear, distilled water. But as soon as touches the earth, it becomes muddy. But that muddiness can be filtered.
Rupanuga: Plus muddiness is the character of the mud, not the consciousness. And it can be cleansed, filtered out.
Prabhupada: Yes, that filtering process is devotional service. So unless the water is different from the precipitated matter, how it can be filtered?
Svarupa Damodara: So far we are concerned, prakrti is clear, but the source of prakrti is little, ah, so we try to... We want to show this, Srila Prabhupada, in our chapter on some sort of creation, creation of material manifestation.
Prabhupada: You'll get from Second Canto.
Rupanuga: Second Canto. That's that "First Step in Self-Realization" chapter?
Svarupa Damodara: Fifth chapter, sixth chapter, two chapters.
Prabhupada: Atra sargo visargas ca, that verse, Second Canto, you find out.
Sadaputa: Srila Prabhupada? Is matter generated within a given body, like the body of a human being? While it's living, is matter generated and annihilated within that body during the time of life?
Prabhupada: Body is matter. Whole body is combination of matter.
Sadaputa: Right. But does the living entity within or the Supersoul...
Prabhupada: Yes, within.
Sadaputa: Does it generate matter, so say the body could get heavier or lighter because of that?
Prabhupada: Because the living entity is there, matter is generated. Just like a tree, living entity is there, and big log, wood is generated.
Rupanuga: Like that stone. That stone is increasing it's weight, so when someone goes to see the stone he sees, ah, the stone is bigger and heavier also. So that increased material or matter that makes up the bigger size of the stone, is that matter being generated from the soul?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: From the spirit soul. So spirit soul has power...
Prabhupada: Mattah sarvam pravartate. Similarly, from the spirit soul everything has come out.
Rupanuga: So spirit soul can create matter.
Prabhupada: Actually, from life matter is generated.
Rupanuga: Jaya.
Prabhupada: Not from matter life is generated. That is wrong.
Sadaputa: There are some people who have done measurements and...
Prabhupada: :Measurement is there in the Vedic literature, Upanisad.
Rupanuga: Is it that the living entity, when he creates this matter to expand, like the stone is growing, does he manufacture this material from the etheric platform, or does he...
Prabhupada: According to his desire he can.
Rupanuga: Simply by desiring.
Prabhupada: :What is that verse? Iccha dvesah samutthena sarge yanti.
Rupanuga: There have been some..., modern scientists have done some experiments showing that in the soil there are organisms, micro-organisms and earthworms that can produce chemicals, increasing just simply by their presence.
Prabhupada: Yes. I have given that example, already he has mentioned.
Rupanuga: Pasteur?
Prabhupada: No, no, this lemon.
Rupanuga: A lemon tree.
Prabhupada: A lemon tree is producing chemicals.
Sadaputa: Some people would say the lemon tree was simply taking food and rearranging it.
Prabhupada: Yes. But the tree is the source, but everything is there in the earth. But God's creation is so nice that through the tree the chemical is coming. The chemical is there in the earth, but the seed of the lemon tree, when it grows, it extracts the particular type of chemical.
Sadaputa: We were wondering then if also it could produce matter, instead of taking from the earth and rearranging it.
Prabhupada: No, earth is the source of everything. Sarva-kama-dugha mahi, you get from... Actually you are getting all chemicals from the earth.
Rupanuga: So they are already there.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Rupanuga: Created by Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. The driver(?) is there.
Svarupa Damodara: He's trying to mention an experiment in science, there's a man called...
Prabhupada: That is your duty, mention...
Svarupa Damodara: He tries to show that the living system...
Prabhupada: No, if we can see practically different seeds are exacting different color, different flavor, different chemicals. Everything is coming from the earth, sarva-kama-dugha mahi, everything is coming.
Rupanuga: So the plant...
Prabhupada: Simply outside arrangement, how to take it.
Rupanuga: So in other words the tree or the plant in agriculture takes the chemicals from the soil...
Prabhupada: The seed, as soon as come in touch with the earth, the seed exacts particular chemical and everything from there. This is the arrangement.
Rupanuga: So that spirit soul in the seed, he is not creating anything; he is taking.
Prabhupada: Spirit soul, according to his karma, takes shelter of the situation. But the seed, the chemical composition, exacts the desired.
Rupanuga: All Krsna's arrangement.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Can the seed do that without the spirit soul being present within the seed?
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hari-sauri: Can the seed extract anything without the spirit soul being present there?
Prabhupada: No. Seed is instrumental. Just like you have to do something, you require an instrument. Actually, according to the desire of the living entity, he's given instrument, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61]. Yantra. You require something, you require a particular yantra or machine. So seed is practically the machine, and the living entity is using it to satisfy his desires.
Hari-sauri: So that growth of matter, that's the matter is coming from outside, and the spirit soul is simply taking it and expanding his body.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Sadaputa: Is earth still being manifested from ether? Like the description in Bhagavatam is from sound and then through different elements finally down to earth. Is that still happening today?
Prabhupada: Every, always happening. Nature's law is going on.
Sadaputa: Yes. So what I was wondering, is like earth still being manifested in living bodies from sound and so on, like the chemists...
Prabhupada: No, no. The process is going on. I've described. That is going on.
Rupanuga: So the spirit soul is in the seed, and the seed interacts with the other chemicals to make growth. So if the chemicals are not there in the earth, then that seed cannot make those chemicals.
Prabhupada: No, chemical is there in the earth. According to the seed it is exacted. Just like a chemist will analyze or they separate the ingredient, so much this percentage, so much that percentage, so much that. Everything is there. Similarly within the earth, everything is there. The seed is the instrument and the living entity is the exactorwhat is that? Exactor?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. He's executor.
Rupanuga: He takes, utilizes.
Prabhupada: Utilizer. Bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan
Svarupa Damodara: Extracts.
Rupanuga: Extracts from.
Prabhupada: Extracts.
Rupanuga: Suppose like now, just like this Vedic injunction against artificial fertilizers in the soil, suppose, as modern farmers are doing, they use this artificial fertilizer and the soil becomes depleted in minerals.
Prabhupada: That means artificial is the same principle. You are living entity; by artificial fertilizer you are exacting something from the earth, the same principle.
Rupanuga: Now suppose we take so many chemicals from the earth and they may become a little depleted. Can those chemicals be replaced by the earth itself as the ongoing process of nature?
Prabhupada: Everything is coming from the earth.
Svarupa Damodara: That is..., Sadaputa has an interesting point in science itself, that somebody tried to show that in the living body, when life is within matter, the ah, it doesn't follow the conservation of matter. Science, one of the basic principles of science is that...
Prabhupada: No, no. All the living conditions are there in the matter, provided there is the living being, that's all. Just like a dead body, it is not that the living condition is finished, no. The living conditions are there. That particular soul has left that body. But the dead body is also full of ingredients of living condition. So many germs are coming out when the body is decomposed. You say decomposition, but even in that decomposed condition there is living condition. So the living conditions are already there, matter in any form. So how these rascals say there is no life in the moon planet? That is not possible. The living conditions are always there in the matter. This is the example. Now, a decomposed body, the living being has left, now it is dead matter, but still, the living beings are coming out. How it is? That means matter has always the potency to give shelter to the living entity. So it is impossible that there is no living being in the moon planet. It is bogus. We cannot accept it. Any condition there is provision for the living beings. We see actually, in the earth, in the air, in the water, in the fire, these five elements. Whatever you take, these five elements in different proportions. So the living..., just like from perspiration living entities come out. It is impossible there is no living entities. That is bogus complete. You can challenge like that.
Svarupa Damodara: The living entities that they are familiar with.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. Kupa-mandukya-nyaya. They knew some certain type of living entities, that's all.
Svarupa Damodara: So they think that all the living entities would be like that.
Prabhupada: That is their kupa-mandukya-nyaya, Dr. Frog. But the fact is, any condition of material existence, there is possibility of living entity there. Sarva-ga, sthanur, acalo'yam sarva-ga. Everywhere there is living entity. It is impossible to conclude that on other planets there is no living entity. It is not possible.
Svarupa Damodara: Is it possible to do some experiments?
Prabhupada: You experiment, you see a dead body. It is obnoxious smelling, but living entities coming.
Svarupa Damodara: No, to show that matter is generated by life, we want to do some experiment.
Prabhupada: That is there. Every day we are experiencing, huh? Just the same seed and the living entity comes and it becomes a tree and it grows, big tree, huge body. And as soon as it is dead, the body is not increasing. This is experiment. Everything is coming from life. Krsna says, He's the supreme life, He says mattah sarvam pravartate iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah [Bg. 10.8]. He's the origin of everything, both matter and life, everything. Matter also coming from life, life is also coming from life. Therefore life is the original source of everything. Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. So janmady asya yatah is life. That is explained in the Bhagavata. Janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah [SB 1.1.1]. That source of everything is life and is fully conscious of everything what is happening. Anvayat, indirectly and directly, fully conscious. That is life.
Rupanuga: So that matter is coming from Krsna originally.
Prabhupada: Everything is coming from Him.
Rupanuga: Spirit soul, he has his activities and he's active and...
Prabhupada: He may be inactive, but his subtle desires is active. That is creation. Matter is supplying, that is pradhana of life.
Rupanuga: So he creates the situation for the matter, but he doesn't create the matter itself.
Prabhupada: Yes. He wants, "I want this," and God is there, He asks material energy to supply the ingredients, and he creates his own situation.
Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you very much, Prabhupada. (end)

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