Room Conversation

July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.
Prabhupada: ...and it is a fact, he did not fix it. I wanted both of you to take various detailed photographs of that Capitol.
Yadubara: The Capitol Building. For what purpose, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: We shall have picture, planetarium in Mayapura. (aside:) That's better. [break] ...spiritual world, material world, and so on, so on. Planetary..., succession of the planetary systems, everything. A building like that.
Yadubara: That would be a separate building from the temple?
Prabhupada: Yes. We are acquiring 350 acres of land for life for constructing a small township...
Yadubara: I think we...
Prabhupada: ...to attract people from all the world to see the planetarium.
Svarupa Damodara: Is this near the temple?
Prabhupada: Yes. Planetarium name, actually it will be temple. But all round, things will be... Anyway.
Yadubara: I know before the idea was to have it inside the main temple.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Yadubara: As you walked up the outside of the, or the inside of the main temple, inside that dome, they would have it on the walls. But that would... That original plan was to have it inside the main temple.
Prabhupada: Yes. You take all details, inside, outside. That will be nice.
Svarupa Damodara: Can you take inside? Is it allowed?
Yadubara: Yes, I think so.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna... (japa) And you prove that sun planet is first. It is stated in the Bible.
Svarupa Damodara: I was going to inquire about that.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Svarupa Damodara: The order, Sunday, Monday, whether it has to do anything with the distance.
Prabhupada: Distance, whatever it may be. But the sun is first, then moon, then Mars, then Jupiter, then like that. One after another. Otherwise, why Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, like that?
Yadubara: That means the distance, then, from the earth?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Yadubara: Sun is first.
Prabhupada: According to Srimad-Bhagavatam, the moon is situated 1,600,000 miles away up to the sun. Upper. So according to their calculation, 93,000,000 miles, sun is situated from the earth. And if the moon is plus 1,600,000 then it becomes 15,000,000 miles. So 15,000,000 miles it takes about...
Hari-sauri: Ninety-five million.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Hari-sauri: Ninety-five million.
Prabhupada: :Yes. That. Ninety five millions. It takes at least seven...
Hari-sauri: Seven months.
Prabhupada: Seven months, to the speed they are going, 18,000 miles per hour. So how they have gone in four days?
Yadubara: According to...
Prabhupada: They have brought some sand. Such a brilliant planet which is illuminating the whole universe and they brought sand. All bluff.
Svarupa Damodara: They've studied this very carefully.
Prabhupada: All bluff.
Yadubara: According to the Bhagavatam, the sun is also 93,000,000 miles away from the earth?
Prabhupada: That is we shall see later on. It is about. The whole diameter is 4 billions. And sun is situated almost in the middle. It is my firm conviction that they did not go to the moon. Neither they'll be able to go to the Mars as they have planned it.
Svarupa Damodara: But their scientists would be mad...
Prabhupada: They are mad already, they're talking all nonsense. Already they're mad.
Svarupa Damodara: They're studying all the rocks from the moon.
Prabhupada: Rascals. What they will get? They studied the rock. And they have found one crack in the whole moon planet, and there's no living being?
Svarupa Damodara: Actually the rocks are being distributed all over the world.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Svarupa Damodara: For analysis. Little portion of the rock that they have brought from different stratas(?), they have distributed all over the world. And the report is coming that a portion of the elements (indistinct), so from there they calculate how old the moon is. It's about the same age as the earth, about 4.5 million years.
Prabhupada: They say similar rocks are available here.
Prabhupada: Then why they bother about bringing rock from there?
Svarupa Damodara: To investigate more.
Prabhupada: What is investigation? Simply bluff.
Hari-sauri: Similar rocks are available here, because the same rock was taken from here.
Prabhupada: If the rock is the same, so why not living beings there?
Svarupa Damodara: They claim there is no atmosphere.
Prabhupada: No, if the atmosphere is different, the rock must be different. The sun must be different. The atmosphere is different, but the rock sand is the same? They have to believe that? Everything should be different.
Svarupa Damodara: Some of the rocks can be similar.
Prabhupada: So similar, then atmosphere cannot be dissimilar. It is common sense. And this is also bogus, that such a brilliant illuminating planet, it is full of rocks and sand.
Svarupa Damodara: The moon?
Prabhupada: Yes. It is so brilliant that it is illuminating the whole universe.
Devotee: They say the moon is a reflection.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. Why reflection not come in our Sahara desert? Why you don't see such reflection in the Sahara desert so that the whole world may be illuminated?
Svarupa Damodara: This is also going to be very critical.
Prabhupada: Which one?
Svarupa Damodara: This moon is farther away than the sun. That brings a whole new concept that poses some problem.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Svarupa Damodara: In speaking (at) colleges and universities. The other day when you spoke there, we were not speaking about astronomy, you were speaking of the origin of life, and these people, outsiders, they already had the concept to raise up that question. So without any connection they brought up. So the question was, "Whatever you present is very nice, fine, but what about the moon? Do you believe that the moon is farther away than the sun?"
Prabhupada: But they have already...?
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, they already studied, they are ready to ask those things, and they say, "Just give me an answer, yes or no."
Prabhupada: They asked you? They asked you?
Prabhupada: So what did you answer?
Svarupa Damodara: We said yes, but our explanation was much (indistinct) in the sense that we said you have to study this more carefully, but we tried to remark the concept that now we are conditioned to believe certain things.
Prabhupada: Now, how they heard that we are believing in this way?
Prabhupada: Oh.
Svarupa Damodara: From Srimad-Bhagavatam. And sometimes devotees go around the colleges and sometimes they say, "What you are doing is all wrong, the moon is far away." So I think this is spread all over.
Prabhupada: But that is a fact.
Svarupa Damodara: But we had one explanation saying that now, the way we percept knowledge, though we understand things, there is also a conditioning behind it. So actually this is a fact, but in Mathematics, if we change the axiom, then we have a whole new understanding, it's almost completely upside down, but still we can interpret the result. It is just like a simple jumble(?), while Nils Bohr, studying the structure of the atom. Now he had a mathematical equation to fit the phenomena of this atom, and actually you can perfectly describe this phenomena by this equation, but, now, at morning times, this quantum mechanics, it turns out whatever he did was completely wrong, but it can be described completely, perfectly well as his model, as is our present understanding. But now his theories (indistinct), he could explain things on his own, but still it's completely wrong. So similarly...
Prabhupada: They are right. They may present the wrong thing, but still they are right.
Prabhupada: That is their proposition?
Svarupa Damodara: It is possible, but that's why we're claiming that. They agree that because not only there is several facts in science, that one should be (indistinct) this is true, then suddenly by some new discoveries came out all wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So we are discussing about our limitations of our so-called knowledge-finding technique. So we said, "One has to be a little open-minded and discuss these things..."
Prabhupada: What does they say about that disi, astralogic kalokyam (Hindi) ?
Svarupa Damodara: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Svarupa Damodara: And in this connection we actually wanted to also study Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada's...
Prabhupada: Surya-siddhanta.
Prabhupada: Yes. But where is that book?
Svarupa Damodara: Pradyumna told me that it's available in Bengali, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: If it is available, get it. (indistinct) He was one of the authorities about sun movements.
Svarupa Damodara: I heard that it will be very...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) He got this Surya-siddhanta, Siddhanta Sarasvati. He was very expert astrologer.
Svarupa Damodara: So we were thinking that there must be some more information there.
Prabhupada: (indistinct) There are (in) Calcutta many... Some of them still, living or dead I do not know. But in India, in Benares you'll find many astrologers. You said in your book that the sun is the nearest planet?
Svarupa Damodara: No, I didn't say that. We actually took the concept of the... I wasn't talking much there, saying that there is one star, the sun is the nearest star.
Prabhupada: Nearest star.
Prabhupada: So that means near star, nearest, which relationship, with the earth?
Svarupa Damodara: With the other stars.
Prabhupada: Ah?
Svarupa Damodara: With the other stars.
Prabhupada: Other stars? Nearest means?
Svarupa Damodara: To the earth.
Prabhupada: To the earth. So they are... We are speaking the same thing. The sun is the nearest, then moon.
Hari-sauri: But they don't care if the moon is a star.
Prabhupada: No, moon star is described in the Bhagavad-gita. Naksatranam aham sasi. It is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita. Moon is one of the stars, but brilliant star.
Yadubara: How many brilliant stars are there in this Universe?
Prabhupada: Many. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti-kotisv asesa-vasudhadi-vibhuti-bhinnam [Bs. 5.40]. Asesa. We cannot count.
Svarupa Damodara: The description is also that there is only one star in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The description is that there is only one star in this universe. One star.
Prabhupada: One star?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, only one star.
Devotee: One sun.
Svarupa Damodara: I'm sorry, one sun.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: One sun in this universe.
Prabhupada: This is one universe.
Svarupa Damodara: So actually what they call solar system, science doesn't call it one universe. The concept of universe is very vast.
Prabhupada: That is not vast. Our concept...
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, our conception is solar system, actually. The solar system is one universe.
Prabhupada: Solar? There is no solar system. The ninth, I mean planets.
Svarupa Damodara: Solar system, what they mean, the science, the sun, and these planets that we know, consists of, comprises our Srimad-Bhagavatam universe, concept of the universe.
Prabhupada: Yes, the (indistinct) is a big affair, the sun is one of the important planets. Not only the sun, moon, Mars, Jupiter, everyone.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually as astronomy and (indistinct) are especially astronomy is one of the most unscientific branch of study, knowledge is concerned. It's very, very little known. The way that... The techniques that they use, are very difficult to rely on.
Prabhupada: So their Astronomical calculation, the sun is fixed up, that is also wrong. The sun is not fixed up.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, Your Divine Grace, you wrote me a letter saying about the universe is just like an inverted tree.
Prabhupada: Yes, urdhva-mulam adhah-sakham [Bg. 15.1], Bhagavad-gita.
Svarupa Damodara: And the tree, and the leaves, and the fruits and flowers are the planets.
Prabhupada: Urdhva-mulam, Gita says, urdhva-mulam adhah-sakham. The pole-star in the... And we see at night everything is moving. As a bunch it is moving.
Hari-sauri: Does that means all the planets are fixed in relationship to each other as well?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like a tree. Tree is fixed up, as a whole tree is moving.
Hari-sauri: Because we see practically that the moon also moves, across the sky. Just like the sun does. So the sun has an orbit?
Prabhupada: Sun is also... Yes.
Hari-sauri: And the moon has an orbit also?
Prabhupada: In the Brahma-samhita it is said, yasyajnaya bhramati sambhrta-kala-cakrah. Yac-caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam raja samasta-sura-murtir asesa-tejah. Unlimited temperature. Everything is there.
Hari-sauri: Does the moon have an orbit also then?
Prabhupada: Yes, every (indistinct). It is described as a chariot moving. Something, challenge must be given.
Hari-sauri: I think that when we try to explain to them that the sun is drawn by a chariot, then... (laughs)
Prabhupada: The (indistinct) sun is God. He's one of the gods.
Hari-sauri: Hm.
Yadubara: Won't they just take this...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) He's a person, sun-god. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1], a person. That is his planet. He is the predominating Deity. And similarly moon. And the ksatriyas, they are coming from these two planets. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, vivasvan manave praha manur iksvakave... Iksvaku is the surya-vamsa, the ksatriya family coming from the sun.
Yadubara: Srila Prabhupada, we're taking this from the Bhagavatam. Won't they just think that this is myth?
Prabhupada: (indistinct) is myth? Who believes you? If you don't believe me, I don't believe you. Finished.
Yadubara: So we should present our side.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is our business. If you don't believe me I don't believe you. Finished business. You have got your authority, I've got my authority. Why shall I...?
Hari-sauri: Actually we have authority and they have no authority.
Prabhupada: What is your age? You are all scientists within 200 years. And our Bhagavata is written 5,000 years ago. Why shall I accept yours?
Yadubara: So no matter what they say we should present it at least.
Prabhupada: Yes. You have become all scientists, and everything within 200 years. What is the age of your European, Western civilization? It cannot go more than 3,000 years? Our Bhagavata is written 5,000 years ago. And before that, Sukadeva Gosvami says, "I have heard like this." That's all. Millions and millions (of years ago)...
Devotee (1): You were saying that everything they say is wrong, and that is our position. We take that position, that everything they say is wrong.
Prabhupada: Yes, because they are imperfect, they are speculating.
Devotee (1): Yes.
Prabhupada: What is the value of your speculation? If you are on the wrong platform, then what is the value of your speculation? You have got imperfect senses, you cheat, with the microscope or binocular, but it is manufactured by you. How it is perfect?
Svarupa Damodara: That is one of our reasonings, that the senses...
Prabhupada: Yes. You are born imperfect, and you are manufacturing some measuring... So that is also imperfect. And you are depending by seeing through the binocular. How it is perfect?
Devotee (1): They've convinced us that these machines are accurate.
Prabhupada: How it is accurate? It is manufactured by you. You are a fool.
Devotee (1): But some things they say, like the rays...
Prabhupada: They say, they may say, but first of all, what is the position of the conditioned soul? Four defects. You must commit mistakes, you must be illusioned, his senses are imperfect, and he's a cheater. These are the four defects of conditioned souls. So how the conditioned soul can give perfect knowledge?
Svarupa Damodara: That is our conclusion.
Prabhupada: Yes. The position of conditioned soul is that he must commit mistake, and he's illusioned, and his senses are imperfect, and he wants to cheat. Everyone speaks something. You know that he has no perfect knowledge in the subject matter, still he wants to speak something. That means he wants to cheat. This is going on. And then after some years somebody says, "No, it was not correct." That means he cheated. The former scientists or philosophers cheated.
Svarupa Damodara: Why ask?
Prabhupada: Yes. He has no perfect knowledge and he proposed something and now it is incorrect. And the man who is correcting, he's also a cheater. This is going on, this is their parampara system. One cheater, another cheater, another cheater. So why shall I believe the cheaters?
Devotee (1): They've convinced us by their machines.
Prabhupada: That machine means, their machine. Again you are bringing the same argument. What is value of machine? The machine is made by a cheater. Imperfect senses, how it is perfect?
Devotee (1): But some machines work, though, like the radio, the TV...
Prabhupada: Work to some extent, that much credit you can take.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, to some extent that is also you're saying...
Prabhupada: To some extent is, everyone accepts.
Hari-sauri: Just amplifies the cheating.
Prabhupada: Yes. To some extent they are correct, that's all. So far they say, "I can see 2 feet or 10 feet." That's all. So how can I say I can see the whole sky? That is cheating.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually that is also the fundamental mistake.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: In our attempt to gain knowledge, that we try to expand our own limited experience to something which is beyond my...
Prabhupada: Beyond my...
Yadubara: Doctor Frog.
Prabhupada: Doctor Frog, yes.
Svarupa Damodara: So sometimes...
Prabhupada: Imagining. "It may be like this. It may be like that." That is not knowledge. Doctor Frog is thinking of Atlantic ocean. He is within three feet of water. And how he can think of Atlantic Ocean? He may think, "It may be four feet, or five feet, or ten feet," and as soon as says 20 feet, he bursts. He's finished. Now you are finished.
Devotee (2): But they are so many... [break]
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, that's a good point.
Devotee (2): But they cheated when they said they went to the moon.
Prabhupada: Yes, they're cheaters, those who have got imperfect senses, they're all cheaters. If they say something, "Definitely this is like this," that is cheating.
Devotee (2): But how can so many cheat?
Prabhupada: So many cheat?
Devotee (2): Together. Together they all cheat, they all say they went to the moon. One thousand scientists, all together in one room? They all say, "We agree, this, they went to the moon, here's the..."
Prabhupada: Therefore I say that if we can prove that the moon is beyond sun, then all these cheaters will be (indistinct), by one stroke.
Devotee (2): It's a great cheating effort, then. Must be a very great effort that they cheated everybody like this. Because so many scientists were fooled.
Prabhupada: Scientists...
Devotee (2): They...
Prabhupada: So many are... Because they're speculating. No valid knowledge.
Visakha: It seems that since they have imperfect senses, they're unable to perceive...
Prabhupada: It is impossible to say anything scientifically. So-called scientifically.
Visakha: So they cannot perceive that there is somebody with perfect senses.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Visakha: They deny that there is someone with perfect senses.
Prabhupada: So they may, but we have got. Our knowledge is parampara. That Krsna says, whatever He says is all right. Krsna is not common man, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11]. He's not man at all He's Supreme Personality of Godhead. Abhijnah. Experience in everything.
Svarupa Damodara: We agree that we have more limited senses...
Prabhupada: He's a scientist, he knows.
Svarupa Damodara: Scientists also, when we talk together...
Prabhupada: They know that they're talking nonsense, but they still want to cheat, to get their salary, that's all. This is the position.
Hari-sauri: That's a fact.
Prabhupada: Because they know, we can cheat these rascals, government. They are all rascals, we can simply talk in some bombastic words (speaks gibberish). They'll believe it. This is going on. All imperfect knowledge.
Hari-sauri: If they don't produce some new theory, or some new discovery...
Prabhupada: That means they prove their own foolishness. Why do you produce new theory? If there is perfect knowledge? That proves their foolishness.
Svarupa Damodara: It's also called intellectual exercise.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: They want to...
Hari-sauri: Mental speculation.
Prabhupada: That's all. Manorathena. Asati dhavato bahih. Mental speculation.
Yadubara: It's all based on that. Because if you don't speculate mentally, you don't get a degree.
Prabhupada: That's another thing. A fool is accepted by another fool. That is another thing. They're getting Nobel Prize and so on and so on. That is different thing. Fool's paradise. All of them are fools. And they have created their own paradise. Do you know that story? That one was drinking, so his friend said, "Oh, you are drinking, you'll go to hell." "No, why? My father drinks." "Well, he'll also go to hell." "Oh, by brother drinks." "So he'll also go to hell." "My brother..." In this way, the whole list was (indistinct). Then he said, everyone will go to hell. Then where is hell? It is paradise! If father is going, then mother is going, then I am going, then brother is going, then where is hell?" It is like that. They're all fools, then where is fool? Everyone is intelligent. That is (indistinct). There's no question of fool. If everyone, all of us are fool, then where is the question of intelligent? "Hey, we are intelligent." (indistinct) This is their conclusion. We can give credit to something, just like I can see up to this wall. But if I say, "Now I am seeing beyond this world, everything, the forest and everything, I know everything." That is going on. Cheating.
Svarupa Damodara: That's... Goes a little too far.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Beyond one's limit.
Prabhupada: Go, you have got... You have seen... Go to all the planets. Where can you go? Why you make attempt for sending... (indistinct). At night we see millions of planet. Go there. This is material, there is no question of spiritual world. Go there. If you've got any machine. Why you attempt? Go, as you go from here to London, go there. We can see there is... Why there is attempt? That means your instrument is also insufficient. And you are very proud of your having instrument. Where is that instrument, go with that instrument. Imperfect. Everything is imperfect.
Svarupa Damodara: Two problems in man's history is this: one is this astronomical problem and the second is the origin of life.
Prabhupada: Just see. And we have to... Touching (?) these three worlds.
Svarupa Damodara: So my feeling is that in about fifty years something is going to be settled.
Prabhupada: (laughs) It's already settled. They should accept the (indistinct). It's already settled.
Svarupa Damodara: Especially about this origin of life business.
Prabhupada: That is also settled. Everything is settled. But these rascals must admit. That's all.
Svarupa Damodara: It's settled in the sense that even the scientist will come around that, "Oh, yes, what we taught was wrong."
Prabhupada: Yes. That we want. They have become unnecessary authorities and misleading people. That we want to expose.
Svarupa Damodara: So in a sense it is good that they do research.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We are giving them knowledge.
Prabhupada: If they are after knowledge, they should accept.
Svarupa Damodara: There is one, some sort of a mental satisfaction. When we work something we thought that by doing this I'll be able to come to a conclusion. But by the same research, by the same result, I found that what I thought was wrong, so from that, that satisfaction is there, so that must be true. Something like that.
Prabhupada: Here is one, that Sukla, he is also favorable.
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, he's a very nice man. I never saw any Indian like that.
Devotee (2): He's favorable, but he won't come to the temple.
Prabhupada: That doesn't matter. But he has got sympathy.
Devotee (2): Yes, he's very nice, sympathetic. But he didn't come to help us at all. And we approached him for life member, he said he would, but then he never did.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Svarupa Damodara: Slow... He'll come around.
Prabhupada: The another medical man, he's also working?
Devotee (2): Medical man, he's very favorable. He comes every day to the temple.
Prabhupada: So he's a devotee.
Devotee (2): He's moving in. He's going to take up a house here. He's very convinced.
Prabhupada: He wants to give us some land?
Devotee (2): Yes, yes.
Prabhupada: Fifty acres.
Devotee (2): Yes.
Prabhupada: In India we have been offered so many land. But we have no men (indistinct).
Svarupa Damodara: I also got a letter from Manipur, that Life Member, Kulavida Singh, he was concerned that the young people are now giving up the religious thought, so he wanted to establish some sort of school...
Prabhupada: That (indistinct) is made by Vivekananda, yato mata tato patha, (?) very bad.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah. So as soon as... They wanted to start an ISKCON branch, and he was a...
Prabhupada: I think it will not be difficult. Manipur is...
Svarupa Damodara: It will be very easy, because...
Prabhupada: ...Vaisnava. So if they understand, that will be very nice.
Svarupa Damodara: All the, even the government participates so they wrote me a letter saying that they can give us nice land, plot, and...
Prabhupada: Oh yes. Now that Govindaji's temple?
Svarupa Damodara: Govindaji's temple is taken over by the government, so I talked to, I wrote a letter...
Prabhupada: Government, they cannot manage.
Svarupa Damodara: They are not managing properly.
Prabhupada: They cannot. As soon as anything goes to state especially in India, goes to the government track(?), it is spoiled. Government means all thieves and rogues. How they'll manage? They'll simply swallow whatever they get. Government means... They cannot manage, they are not devotees. It should be in the hands of the devotees. So (indistinct), the paid man, they want some money, that's all. How they can manage temple? It is impossible.
Svarupa Damodara: It becomes a political problem.
Prabhupada: That's all. Eh?
Svarupa Damodara: It becomes involved in politics. So that... Nothing to do with the worship.
Prabhupada: The government should give to the hands of the devotee, we are recognized devotees, ISKCON. If they want, really management. We are managing, so many centers, on account of devotees. It is not possible to manage all these things by paid men. It is not possible.
Devotee (2): No.
Prabhupada: They'll never... They'll not... This movement can be pushed on vigorously so long we are devotees, otherwise it will be finished. It cannot be conducted by any outsiders. No. Only the devotees. That is the secret.
Devotee (2): You cannot pay a devotee.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee (2): You cannot buy a devotee.
Prabhupada: That is not possible.
Devotee (2): You can buy someone to sweep the floor, but you cannot buy a preacher.
Prabhupada: No, that is not possible. So so long we remain devotees, our movement will go, without any check.
Devotee (2): Devotees should take over the world.
Prabhupada: Yeah, that is... That is good for the world.
Devotee (2): Yes.
Prabhupada: If devotees take up the whole world for management, then everyone will be happy. It is no doubt it. Krsna wants that. He wanted the Pandavas should be in charge of the government. Therefore He took part in the fighting. "Yes, you should be the... All the Kauravas should be killed, and Maharaja Yudhisthira installed." That is the dharma-samsthapanarthaya. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. He wants everything goes very smoothly and people become God conscious. So their life be successful. That is Krsna's plan. That, "These rascal misleading and therefore... the (indistinct) the human life has been spoiled." Therefore I was talking about the "What is the meaning of the independence, (indistinct)?" ? The life is spoiled. And they will spoil their life and become next life a dog, and this big, big building, with stair, that's all. What the big buildings will do benefit to these people who is going to be a dog next life? Taking as a theory, that those who have constructed this big, big building and next life they're going to be a dog.
Svarupa Damodara: But they don't know that next life they're going to be a dog.
Prabhupada: That is the difficulty. They do not know it. Therefore maya. It is same thing (indistinct). The life is meant for spiritual realization. They are not (indistinct) chance. They're going to become dog, and they think that, "Now we have got this big building, that is success."
Svarupa Damodara: That awakening of their understanding is necessary.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Otherwise, if they know that it's going to be like that then they won't do that.
Prabhupada: Therefore they dismiss, "No, we don't believe in the next life." And they're so degraded even for argument's sake, "What is the wrong if I become dog?" They say, university students.
Devotee (2): They say that, yes.
Prabhupada: "What is the wrong if I become a dog?" The same thing. Hell. Everyone is going to hell. So what is wrong? The same philosophy, if father is going, mother is going, brother is going, I am going, then where is hell?" That's all. We shall go there all together.
Devotee (2): Will this movement take over the world, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: At least you keep one idea. There is possibility.
Devotee (2): I think it will be very big.
Prabhupada: That is possible. If we become serious and sincere, then it will go on, undoubtedly.
Devotee (2): See how big it grew just in ten years. Today is our anniversary.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (2): Our ten year anniversary today. So in ten years we have gotten so big, by geometric progression in 20 years how big will we be? Thousands and thousands of people, chanting and dancing.
Prabhupada: And there is chance. Simply by chanting you can attract so many people.
Devotee (2): Yes, I think so. They're coming already. You chanted and so many people came.
Svarupa Damodara: Already in the, your English vocabulary, in America, actually they use many Sanskrit vocabularies now.
Prabhupada: What is that? (laughs)
Svarupa Damodara: So they believe that (indistinct) is the chairman of religion at Emery University, he told me that in about thirty years or so this, our movement...
Prabhupada: They're giving back toward meaning.
Prabhupada: You can learn so many... Sanskrit...
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes. Our students to pick up some Sanskrit words. Atma, jiva, like that. He was telling me that in about thirty or forty years our ISKCON, our movement will have a great impact in the social life there.
Prabhupada: We are giving all, all round enlightenment. Bhagavad-gita is full of information from all standpoint. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati [Bg. 4.7]. We are now in such a downtrodden position, the whole human... He must accept. There is... The civilization is doomed. (pause) What do they explain about so many varieties of life? How do they come?
Svarupa Damodara: They call by mutation. It's called mutation.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Svarupa Damodara: Mutation is... They say DNA molecule is the... called master molecule. But somehow during the course of...
Prabhupada: Somehow.
Svarupa Damodara: Somehow. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Then they're finished. As soon as they "Somehow," it is not science. It is rascaldom. Then it is useless. "Somehow," "Maybe," "Perhaps." (indistinct).
Svarupa Damodara: Somehow there is a mistake in the... (laughs)
Prabhupada: (laughs) Everything is mistake.
Hari-sauri: Who is making the mistake?
Prabhupada: We have to hear this thing: "Somehow they have made a mistake."
Svarupa Damodara: Actually it is very controversial. This... I read an article from the university of Berkeley, Berkeley and some other western campuses, saying that now the theory of this mutation by which the different species are formed is very controversial at this time. Because of the knowledge in our molecular biology, now what they have thought that this mutation is the cause of this variegatedness is a misnomer, being complete mistaken.
Prabhupada: All mistaken. Where is the difference, then how do you experiment in the biological class by dissecting animal body? What is the difference in the composition of social construction, I er, bodily construction. You have to suffer. That's why I have said, there must be (indistinct). The same principle is there. Otherwise how the mosquito fly like this and...
Svarupa Damodara: They can make a mosquito but they...
Prabhupada: No, they cannot make mosquito. They can make 747.
Svarupa Damodara: They can make a sample like mosquito.
Prabhupada: No... They cannot, they cannot. That is my challenge. That first of all you bring life from the egg. You prepare a egg composition, and put it in the incubator and let some living entity come out. So can they do it? So why they will speak all nonsense?
Yadubara: They admit they can't do it.
Prabhupada: Then they are rascal. What they cannot do, they're speaking lots of and getting Nobel prize.
Yadubara: They say how in the future they can.
Prabhupada: How cheating.
Devotee (2): You said the chicken can do it.
Prabhupada: Yeah.
Devotee (2): But they cannot.
Prabhupada: No.
Devotee (2): Therefore a chicken, he is greater than you.
Prabhupada: Yes. Chicken can do. What do you think?
Svarupa Damodara: Yes. The very best way to... I want to use that as an example next time when we preach.
Prabhupada: But a chicken is better than you. Don't talk nonsense. (laughter) Chicken is already doing in his way. You'll see he's laying down, chemical egg, and fermenting, and within week come. So he's better than you.
Yadubara: They'll say that we can also do that, we can also produce child.
Prabhupada: Hm? You can, but you, rascal, you've never done it, simply speak.
Yadubara: No, I mean, they can produce children also by sex life.
Prabhupada: But that is not your laboratory children. That is God's children. That is another thing. That is not your laboratory children. You want to produce children in laboratory? Then do that. That is our challenge.
Svarupa Damodara: But this, one of our arguments now, we argue that these molecules that (indistinct) for example DNA, even if they make it, still it just... It means it's a molecule. It is not going to function normally, as we find in a living cell, in a living body. So this has nothing to do with the life processes. The molecules they make, they may do so many reactions, but still there is a fundamental difference in the living body and this simple, that... To determine that it's never possible to create life in the test tube. The have timetables, Srila Prabhupada, in about fifty years, that's about the turn of the century, that about 2001 we are going to make such and such bodies and...
Prabhupada: All imagination.
Svarupa Damodara: So many strange things. They even said it that this, we have these five fingers, they said this isn't enough, so we must make six, so the six...
Prabhupada: Yes, in this way they're cheating.
Svarupa Damodara: Our brain is a little too small, so we want to do it a little bigger, so that we can think more and utilize more ideas.
Prabhupada: Where is brain? There is no question. That story, that potter?
Hari-sauri: Oh, the one that was dreaming?
Prabhupada: Yeah. You know the potter's story?
Hari-sauri: There was a potter and he had one or two pots, and he started to think, he was dreaming, "Oh, now I've got one or two pots. When I sell these pots then I'll make so much money. Then I'll make some more pots, then I'll make more money, like this. Then when I got some, enough money I'll get a wife, and I'll have a family, like this, and I'll have a nice house." In this way he was carried away with his dreaming and he was thinking, "If my wife doesn't do what I say, I'll kick her like this." And he kicked out, smashed all his pots. (laughter)
Prabhupada: All the two, three pots he had were broken. Then he "Ohhh."
Svarupa Damodara: That is called to make castles in the air?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Actually it is like that.
Prabhupada: Yes. (chuckles)
Visakha: We want to try make a film to prove this point that life comes from life.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: We can do that with film?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Why not?
Svarupa Damodara: We can show it to colleges.
Yadubara: We wanted to work with Svarupa Damodara and the other scientists...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Yadubara: ...in collaboration.
Prabhupada: Do it, do it.
Yadubara: Because their book, subject matter of the book is directly along those lines.
Prabhupada: They say from chemicals, but if you prove that chemicals also come from life...
Devotee: Yeah.
Svarupa Damodara: They got some experiments that we want to do, on purely scientific level...
Prabhupada: You can do it, it is a fact. You can do it, you'll be successful.
Svarupa Damodara: Yeah, there are some experiments that we can do. They have been doing some experiments last three or four months to supplement...
Prabhupada: So you say, in the history these are two problems...
Svarupa Damodara: Oh yeah, these are the greatest...
Prabhupada: So we have trust these two points.
Svarupa Damodara: Once these two points are solved, then the knowledge will be very clear.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: Everything will be very harmonious and come to a common conclusion. But so long as...
Prabhupada: We are giving the solution, let them take it. This is our greatest contribution.
Visakha: The problem is they believe what they see.
Prabhupada: Believe or not believe, we shall have to give the people by books, by knowledge, by film.
Hari-sauri: But if somehow or other that sun-moon thing can be proved, then they'll all be finished, completely.
Prabhupada: It will not be finished because some rascals, fools will remain to support it.
Svarupa Damodara: It's always like that, just like in Mahabharata...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: there was two, demons and the...
Prabhupada: So this is his world of duality. You cannot have all support on your side. It isn't...
Svarupa Damodara: Yes, we always expect opposition.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. That is...
Svarupa Damodara: We must be ready for...
Prabhupada: (indistinct) just like we're opposing their theory. They are not absolute.
Svarupa Damodara: Science, science also, Prabhupada, changing the subject level, science also comes to the conclusion that the stars and this universe have..., they die out and then they produce new ones, just like life cycle of the living body. So...
Prabhupada: Bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19]. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita, bhutva bhutva praliyate.
Svarupa Damodara: So in fact, one of the remarks of a scientist, Nobel laureate actually, in Harvard, Madhava told me he was in American Association for the Advancement of Science. This professor is a professor in biology in Harvard, Boston. His answer was that, "In order to have man in this planet, the stars have to die." That means we come from the stars. The particles, from the stars, then the main involved from those molecules, that star, that come from the stars.
Prabhupada: You do something. I can give you the idea. But it is fact. What ideas I am giving, that's a fact. Now it is up to you to put it (into) so-called scientifics. He'll... In future millions of years after it will create one living entity in the laboratory, so he's taking all the credit, and God is creating millions and millions already, He has no credit. You'll see their intelligence. What the people will gain even if you manufacture one life in the laboratory? So what is the gain? Why you are spending so much money?
Yadubara: They want to become God.
Prabhupada: God becoming is far away. First of all, make some living entity. But even if you do it, then what is your credit? Why you want to take so much great credit?
Svarupa Damodara: It's called false prestige.
Prabhupada: Just see, how nonsense they are, misleading people, making them atheist, Godless. Great dangerous, the so-called scientists.
Svarupa Damodara: So that mentality has to be changed.
Prabhupada: Yes. So if even two, three, points we can prove that they're all rascals, then they will change. Simply cheating people and take high salary. This is common sense. Suppose in the laboratory you make one living being. So what is credit to them? The living entities are coming, many millions...
Devotee: (2): You gave the story about the dog...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (2): ...barking?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (2): And the man he is imitating the dog barking...
Prabhupada: And he'll sell ticket. That "I shall bark like the dog." And people will come, "Oh, let us see." This is going on. What is the credit to bark like a dog? There are so many dogs barking, but people are so fool they'll go and purchase the ticket, "How this man barks like a dog." This is cheating. That is the qualification of conditioned soul, he can very scientifically cheat. This is cheating, "I can bark like dog."
Svarupa Damodara: Aren't we going a little too far. The scientist says-personally I also feel that they are not all that bad...
Prabhupada: No, no. They're badly trained up. Not all.
Svarupa Damodara: There are many good things that they have done.
Prabhupada: That we already admitted. That I can see ten feet, let me credit, take credit for that. But why shall I say, "I can see the whole universe." What is this nonsense? Speak the truth. "Now we have manufactured machine, and this, I have calculation that..." All talking nonsense. I say it is not possible for you to see beyond ten feet. Why you are claiming that you can see the whole sky? That is our protest. You can see ten feet, take that credit, that much. If somebody manufactures the electric lamp, all right. Take this. But if he says, "I can manufacture the sun." Then he is to be beaten with shoes. Talking nonsense. You take this credit, that you have manufactured light in electric bulb, that's all right. But why you claim that, "I can manufacture the sun"? That is their claim, defying God. Because we are explaining God consciousness, therefore we have protest. Otherwise let them move(?), all nonsense (indistinct). But we cannot tolerate when they challenge God. We must (indistinct).
Svarupa Damodara: This year also, Srila Prabhupada, just like their 200 year anniversary, similarly in American Chemical Society this is 100th year celebration. There was a big meeting in New York just few months ago, international meeting, celebrating the 100th year of the American Chemical Society. So I was planning to go there but I didn't go. But they have a moving model of what science has achieved in the last 200 years. And also predictions for what will happen in the future. And one of the Nobel laureates-Fowling is his name, from Californiahe predicted that, specifically in the chemical community, people take him as some sort of, their leader, so whatever he says, they believe that it's going to happen. So he believes that in the next coming 100 years there will be more knowledge on this life matter, and then people will be happier.
Prabhupada: That is mis...
Svarupa Damodara: Selling plastic world.
Prabhupada: Plastic world?
Svarupa Damodara: Mostly synthetic, in a synthetic...
Prabhupada: Manufacture.
Svarupa Damodara: Plastic materials will be predominant, and we will have more frontiers of knowledge especially in the biology, molecular biology. So they are also pessimist that in such and such years we're going to make short of these coal deposits and all these energy supplies, all these different...
Prabhupada: That will be finished?
Prabhupada: (indistinct) will work?
Svarupa Damodara: But he is not, he's optimistic. He said they will find new sources on the nuclear energy, solar energy and all these predictions. But the point there is that these people, they believe in what he says, because he has Nobel laureate (indistinct), and he's respected by... He's very old about seventy...
Prabhupada: So what he is proposing? It's nothing new.
Svarupa Damodara: He's giving some thought, to those people who are worried, "Don't worry about life, it's going to be all nice." And...
Prabhupada: No, we are not worried, and even if we, one is worried, he'll be finished by that time. So all worries will be gone. Moreover, after death there will be no worries. (pause) Prove that everything is being done by God, that we want. Half past five?
Hari-sauri: Almost twenty-five to. Twenty-seven minutes to...
Prabhupada: Twenty-seven minutes? No, no. It is thirty minutes.
Hari-sauri: Twenty-seven minutes to six.
Prabhupada: Oh. Minutes.
Svarupa Damodara: That is made by science. This watch is a product of science.
Prabhupada: Science means craftsman, that's all. (laughter) Mistri. We say mistri. (laughter) You know, in our Indian language? Mistri?
Svarupa Damodara: Mystery.
Prabhupada: Mistri.
Svarupa Damodara: What is that?
Prabhupada: Any craftsman, we say mistri.
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: So mistri has no position. Maybe correct. In our Vedic civilization a learned brahmana is honored, not a mistri. Is it not?
Prabhupada: A learned brahmana, is not expected to manufacture a watch, but he's more honored than one who is actually... This modern age is: if he manufactures watch he is honored. Not the learned brahmana. That is Kali-yuga. That is Kali-yuga. They do not know whom to honor. That is the Kali-yuga going on. You kill so many souls, and if you have a great big skyscraper building, then you are successful. And those who constructed the skyscraper, they are going to become dog, never mind, the skyscraper building is there. That's all. That is success. This is modern civilization. After they constructed the skyscraper building all the mistris are going to hell, that doesn't matter. The building is there. Is it not?
Prabhupada: This is civilization. Long ago in 1917 perhaps, in our college, we saw one magazine.
Svarupa Damodara: St. Xavier's College?
Prabhupada: No, Scottish.
Svarupa Damodara: Oh, Scottish.
Prabhupada: Scottish Churches College. So one American, Scientific American, we have contribute(?). So there the picture was that one skyscraper building is constructed and so many men are working, carrying the beams and so on. So there wasI remember stillthat all, some material construction, so many living entities they are being sacrificed(?). I do not know how the Scientific American gave this picture, I still remember. Actually that is a fact. This human being would have been released from this materialistic way of life, back to home, back to... No, instead of giving them the chance, they are engaged in constructing huge skyscraper building. They're spoiled. So it is little difficult to understand our philosophy. And Prahlada Maharaja said, tat-prayaso na kartavyo yata ayur-vyayah param. Tat-prayaso na kartavyah. This kind of activity should stop. It is simply wasting the valuable life. But they do not know how they're wasting. They're in such an ignorance. They are thinking that these people, crazy people, chanting Hare Krsna, are wasting time, they're thinking like that. They do not know what is the value of life.
Svarupa Damodara: It's a fact that the material opulence is actually a hindrance.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam tayapahrta-cetasam, vyavasayatmika buddhi... What is that? Bhogaisvarya-prasaktanam tayapahrta-cetasam [Bg. 2.44]. Their life will be spoiled. And when they are tired, give them sex, and wine, and meat, and gambling, they are satisfied. Again as soon as they get little energy, again begin another skyscraper. You got this human life for solving all the problem. He is not given the chance. He's engaged otherwise, his life is spoiled. (end)

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