Room Conversation

July 31, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm)
Bhugarbha: Many scholars are appreciating more and more. And on the University of Edmonton, in Alberta, Canada, Dr. Radhakrishna, he was a linguist, professor of linguistics, he's a very pious man, and he is writing a book with some other professor in the Religion department on the comparative study of bhakti in the Indian tradition and the Hebrew tradition. And he's using your books as his only source for the Indian tradition. So he ordered not only one set of all the books, but two sets of all your books. Three sets actually. He ordered one set of Bhagavatams for his own personal library, then he ordered two sets for the University library, one for the reference section and one for the general section. So he ordered three sets. And when his book comes out, in the back they have a bibliography section, references, he will give reference to all your books. He's writing..., he was writing this book about bhakti, and he said "What is a good definition of bhakti for the Indian tradition?" So I showed him Nectar of Devotion, anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Brs. 1.1.11]. He said that is very good, and he wrote it down and put it in his book.
Prabhupada: Till now, they took bhakti as a matter of sentiment. Religious science they did not know, all over the world.
Bhugarbha: He said he's trying to show that by studying bhakti in Indian tradition and also in Hebrew tradition, he's...
Prabhupada: Bhakti is not achieved by studying. Bhakti stage is achieved by practice. That is the special significance of our institution, that we are engaging our men in practicing. Therefore they are getting knowledgenot by reading.
Bhugarbha: He was saying there are certain social and economic conditions that need to be present before bhakti can come about.
Prabhupada: Bhakti can solve everything, social, economical, cultural, religious, everything. So Dr. Joseph saw all my books?
Bhugarbha: Every one he saw. We showed him some... He was very happy to see the Caitanya-caritamrta.
Prabhupada: Yes, I offered him the post of editing.
Bhugarbha: Now he's sorry. Now he's simply sitting in debt(?).
Prabhupada: But he did not say no. He wanted to do conveniently. Then I thought, it will not be... (coughs). "When he will return, he'll do it." That is not possible.
Bhugarbha: He gave me some of his books that he wrote, he gave me some to read. And actually the English in your books is much better than his books, so better he's not editing. It's coming out better.
Prabhupada: No, he's not a good English scholar.
Bhugarbha: Actually, he speaks perfect French also. And he got his Ph.D. from the University of Paris.
Prabhupada: Paris or Dutch as well.
Bhugarbha: He's been every place. He went to, in Paris he got in the Sorbonne and also in Pondicherry they have one French Institute, and there he got his Ph.D. And also in Holland there is one very important... So by his letters we can, many people will take our books.
Prabhupada: No, he's undoubtedly very great Sanskrit scholar. He had written some book how to make the sacred thread, like that. How many knots should be there, how many... (laughter) Smarta brahmana.
Bhugarbha: Now he's written another book to show how his line is changing. His latest book was about the five chapters of the Dasama-skanda, which is the rasa-lila. That is his book now.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Bhugarbha: So he's changing smarta, now he's turned different.
Prabhupada: No, he has no training in bhakti.
Bhugarbha: He said one nice thing. He said that without Jiva Gosvami's Sat-sandarbhas there's no question of understanding Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Bhugarbha: He made that statement.
Prabhupada: I met him when he was in Delhi once.
Bhugarbha: We were very inspired in Delhi, that almost every college we went to, they already had your three books, and the librarians, they would remember. We would ask them "When did you get these books?" They'd think, "Well, about ten, twelve years ago, some sannyasi came. We purchased."
Prabhupada: So they remembered.
Bhugarbha: They were (indistinct).
Prabhupada: So now they took others?
Bhugarbha: Now... We said that "You've begun; this is only the beginning. You cannot have incomplete set." They said "Yes, we cannot have incomplete," so they took the rest. And also that man, that Sastri, the Ministry of Education? That man Mr. Sastri, in the Ministry of Education, the Ratri of Sanskrit-samsad, he bought fifty copies?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Bhugarbha: He's also taken fifty standing orders now to complete wherever he is.
Prabhupada: He is still there?
Bhugarbha: No, he has shifted now, he's in Darbhanga.(?) But his successor, he's taken, we just made copy, it is printed in your Bhagavatam. So he made true copy on some paper, and he has two copies of the last order, and this is the balance of his subscription, so he should take.
Prabhupada: That is Education Ministry.
Bhugarbha: They're only giving the Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: They can take at least fifty copies of each.
Bhugarbha: So he's doing that now.
Prabhupada: They gave me order, I dispatched by post, and if the acknowledgement received, I submitted my bill, they paid.
Bhugarbha: We're going to find the list of which universities you sent to, because we only found..., not that many.
Prabhupada: That will be a waste.(?) (laughter) So many things I did not keep record.
Bhugarbha: Even in Poona, they had, the Deccan College in Poona. They also had, we sent to them also. They also ordered balance.
Prabhupada: In Bombay also I supplied to so many colleges. And the Public Library.
Bhugarbha: That Royal Asiatic Society.
Prabhupada: Accha.
Bhugarbha: In Bombay they purchase all the books. We had to do a little negotiation with them, but they purchased everything. Then the Calcutta Asiatic Society, they wrote us a letter, they said that "These books are the best," the letter came like that, "but that we have no funds to purchase, so can you please send us free of charge."
Prabhupada: They have no funds? Asiatic?
Bhugarbha: They say like that.
Prabhupada: Maybe. Nowadays people are not interested in cultural societies. They are simply for belly. How to earn money, that's all. Sudra mentality. The brahmana mentality is gone. In America also. People are not joining cultural classes of philosophy. Hayagriva said that he has no job because nobody's taking English as literary study. Nobody's interested. They are taking to technology.
Bhugarbha: Science.
Prabhupada: Science means how to make the motorcar wheel, that's all. This is their science.
Bhugarbha: In America, the professors complain to us. When we try to sell them personal books, they should take books themselves, they say that the salary of a college professor in America is the same as the salary of a waiter in some hotel. That is the respect they are given.
Prabhupada: Sometimes they are called churchmouse. Churchmouse. A mouse in the church, what he'll eat? He's in a householder's place, a mouse is there, he can eat something. But church, nobody's eating there. Simply dust, that's all. (laughter) Churchmouse. Any new mail?
Harikesa: Stacks of it. Quite a lot.
Prabhupada: Oh. Where from?
Harikesa: Want to go over it now? Shall we go over everything now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhagavan: Jyotirmayi is outside, and Yogesvara. We can have them come in?
Prabhupada: Just fix on the light.
Bhagavan: Is now the right time to ask? She has some questions on Gurukula. Is now okay?
Prabhupada: (indistinct)
Harikesa: They haven't come as yet.
Bhagavan: Yogesvara has just come back from Italy.
Prabhupada: What is the news, Italy?
Yogesvara: They've finished the preparation for the printing of the French edition of Krsna book and Sri Upadesamrta and the Italian Bhagavad-gita, and they should be ready within the next ten days.
Prabhupada: French language.
Bhagavan: And Italian Bhagavad-gita is done.
Prabhupada: What is the political position of the Fascists and Communists?
Yogesvara: Very mixed up.
Bhagavan: They are called Christian Democrats.
Prabhupada: They can manufacture so many. Fertile brain in the tract of deserted world. This world is desert, and they have got fertile brain. They call? The fertile land in the deserted land, in the desert, is called oasis. So similarly, these rascals, they have got fertile brain in the world of desert, where there is no happiness. But they have got fertile brain, how to manufacture happiness. And maya kicks on their face and baffles everything. This is the illusion. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya [Bg. 7.14]. They, the world is desert, duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15], but they have got fertile brain, how to become happy. And as soon as they make some arrangement, kicks on his face and he falls down. That's all. What do you think? Is it right? Sometimes you have got fertile brain. (laughter) This fertile brain, he will not accept. He'll be kicked out. Everything will be finished. If you want to be happy, then you have to go back home, back to Krsna. That is the only way. Otherwise, your fertile brain will... What do you think, Jyotirmayi? You are intelligent.
Jyotirmayi: I came to ask you some questions for the Gurukula, because now if I don't ask them today...
Prabhupada: So Gurukula means, find out that chapter, brahmacari gurukule.
Hari-sauri: Seven, Two.
Prabhupada: Vasan danto guror hitam. The beginning of life is how to become cent percent obedient to guru. That is Gurukula. That training should be given. The whole process is that our life will be successful when we strictly follow guru and Krsna. Guru means Krsna; Krsna means guru. Not Mayavada, but guru means one who follows Krsna, he is guru. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas tatha bhavyata eva sadbhih **. So guru is directly God, saksad-hari. Saksad means directly. So saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas **, in every sastra it is said the guru is one, Krsna. So, it is stated in the sastra and it is accepted by authorities. Not that it is simply stated. Samasta-sastrair, uktas. You understand little Sanskrit?
Jyotirmayi: Some verses from Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Huh? Ukta, ukta means "said." And sadbhih, "by great personalities." Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair uktas **, tatha, and "accordingly," tatha means "accordingly," bhavyata eva sadbhih, those who are actually in transcendental platform, they should accept it. So why? Kintu prabhor yah priya eva... It does not mean Mayavadi, that he has become God. But kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya, he is the most confidential servant. He's therefore servant-God. He's God, servant-God. God is master-God. Kintu prabhor yah priya eva tasya. So why he has become priya? That is, Krsna says personally, na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah: [Bg. 18.69] nobody is dearer than him in the whole world. Why? Ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhida... [Bg 18.68]. "Who preaches this gospel of Bhagavad-gita among My devotees." So the guru has got two business. He has to make devotees and teach them the principles of Bhagavad-gita. Therefore he's so dear. Not that he has become God, not Mayavadi philosophy. He's living entity, but because he acts very confidentially on behalf of Krsna, therefore he's as good as God. This is bhakti. Not the Mayavadi philosophy that guru has become God. Guru as God, not become. He's servant-God. And Krsna is master-God. So the success is that both the Gods, when one is accepted by both the Gods, then his life is success. Guru-krsna krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. Therefore one has to fix his faith staunchly in the bona fide guru. So if one has got bona fide guru, and if he follows that bona fide guru, then his life is success. This is the process. Saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair **. So Gurukula means to teach how to become very, very faithful, cent percent faithful, to the bona fide guru. That is Gurukula. So you have to teach like that. By behavior, by life, by action. That is Gurukula. This sum and substance of... Brahmacari gurukule vasan danto guror hitam. Where is that?
Harikesa: We don't have the book.
Prabhupada: What you have got? Simply your face, that's all. I'll have to see your face. Why this book is not there?
Hari-sauri: It's Seven, Three. There was only your copies available at the moment, and we gave it to George Harrison.
Prabhupada: And you could not secure any more.
Hari-sauri: The only other copy is in New York.
Prabhupada: Any other Bhagavata? Just see. Reference book must be always there. This is the principle of Gurukula. Now from this platform, on this understanding you have to organize.
Jyotirmayi: You were saying that there are mainly three principles to learn: how to be obedient, how to know, read your books and be self-controlled. So that's what I explained to the teachers, that they should do that.
Prabhupada: Guru says there are four principles to be followed, they should be taught in that way. No illicit sex, no gambling, no meat-eating, no intoxication. Guru says that you chant at least sixteen, that should be taught. Risen early, rise early in the morning, that should be taught. So whatever guru says, you have to teach them perfectly, from childhood; then there will be no deviation when they are grown-up.
Jyotirmayi: We have them chant now down there. When they chant japa, they chant very enthusiastically. So the teacher himself chants...
Prabhupada: No, no. According to age, according to... But this is the principle. Gurukula means to learn how to become obedient, self-controlled, and act on behalf of guru. This is Gurukula. Not to learn grammar very scholarly, grammarian. No, that is not Gurukula. There are many thousands scholarswho cares for them? Put in the life. That is important. Our movement has drawn the attention of the world on account of life and the knowledge. They are finding the knowledge in the book and they are finding the practical application in the life. That is the important thing. Books there are many, but the books as they are described, they are being followed. That is Gurukula.
Prabhupada: Guror hitam. So, a brahmacari, a brahmacari should live in the Gurukula for the following purposes. The first is that he should be trained up how to control the senses. So that, if you teach, any child from the childhood, he'll be trained up. In that case, that female children should be separated.
Jyotirmayi: I wanted to know also what should we do once they are sixteen, because you said they should be trained in a Gurukula until they are sixteen. So once they are sixteen...
Prabhupada: Once Sarasvati said that "We have no sex with woman." (laughter) So, innocent, she does not know. That is, if they are kept separate, they remain innocent. And they are taught that all women should be addressed as mother. Whatever self-control. And female children should be taught how to become faithful to the husband, and to learn the arts of cooking, arts of paintingthat should be their subject matter.
Jyotirmayi: Painting?
Prabhupada: Yes. Sixty-four arts, Radharani did. Then She could control Krsna.
Jyotirmayi: So after they have learned all the academics, reading, writing, all these.
Prabhupada: Academic is ordinary, ABCD, that's all. Not very much. But these arts. They should learn how to cook nicely.
Jyotirmayi: And what should the boys be taught from ten to sixteen?
Prabhupada: The principle is same, that when they grow up they learn the sastra. The more they read, the more they learn. Then they become preacher, teacher. The grown-up children, those who are fifteen, sixteen, they can teach five-, six-years-old.
Jyotirmayi: Then they can take responsibility themselves.
Prabhupada: In this way. Elderly student... That is the way of Indian teaching, that there is one teacher, and how he's managing hundreds? That means there are groups. One who is elderly student, he's taking some beginners: "Write a or A like this." That he can teach. What he has learned, he can teach. Similarly, next group, next group. So in this way, one teacher can manage hundreds of students of different categories. This is organization. Not that everything I have to do. I cannot teach anybody to do it. That is not intelligence. Intelligence is that employ others to help you. That is intelligence. Not that "Oh, I was busy, I could not do it." Why? What about your assistant? Train assistant so that in your absence things can be done. So the elderly students, they could be... Just Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to do that. When He was sixteen years old he could argue with Kesava Kasmiri, because He was practiced. In this way, stage after stage, everyone should be expert. Everyone should be teacher and student.
Bhagavan: The boys, they should learn how also to cook?
Prabhupada: Huh? I never said that. Why you are bringing that question? I said the girls should be. Cooking is not boy's business. But cooking is not a very difficult art. If they want, the boys can... (coughs) There are so many, in the Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu it is stated, how Radharani was qualified. So these things should be taught to the girls. If the girls are taught to give service to the husband to the greatest satisfaction, there will be no disagreement.
Yogesvara: Can the older boys be trained in a particular kind of devotional service? For example, press work?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, everything is devotional. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23], there are varieties. We are not Mayavadi, impersonalists, finished, all business. It is not like that. So whatever business is going on in our movement, everything should be taught according to the capacity, boys or girls, it doesn't matter. Some department is suitable for the boys, some department are suitable for the girls. In this way, they should be trained up. But everyone should be trained up to give service. That is Gurukula. And brahmacari, this sex impulse should be controlled. That ruins the whole character. Our big, big sannyasis are becoming victimized. So that is the danger. Woman is good, man is good; when they combine together, bad. This is the material world. Both of them are good, but when they combine together, they are bad. This is material world. In the spiritual world, there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore it is always good. Everyone is part and parcel of God. So they are good. In the spiritual world, they combine together, it becomes bad, in the material world. In the spiritual world there is no such combination of sense gratification. Therefore they are always good. So you have to train like that. In the spiritual world there are very, very beautiful women, thousand, thousands times. Here, in the heavenly planets, they are calculated the best perfectional body of the woman. But in the spiritual world, still further. But there is no attraction of sex. They are working together, serving together, everything. But the sex attraction, there is no. They are elevated so much in the service of the Lord.... Sex attraction is a kind of pleasure. So there are different types of pleasure. Here, if somebody, good foodstuff is there, and.... That is also another sense pleasure, and by the time one beautiful woman is canvassing, "Now, come and let us enjoy," he will give up this good food. He'll go for sex. Because he will think this is better than that. So one pleasure is rejected if one is engaged in better pleasure. Param drstva nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. So in the spiritual world the service of the Lord is so pleasing, that they can neglect this sex pleasure. That is spiritual world. They have no attachment for sex pleasure. Yadavadhi mama cetah krsna-padaravinde nava-nava-rasa-dhamanudyata bata nari-sangame bhavati mukha-vikarah sustu. When one spits on the sex pleasure, that means he is elevated in spiritual life. So in the material world that is not possible. But by training, by knowledge, one can be elevated. That is Gurukula. So these are the general principles. Now arrange.
Jyotirmayi: I was thinking about that, that because the girls are trained like brahmacarinis also in the Gurukula, they should be also kept very, very simple, just like the little boys, brahmacaris.
Prabhupada: No, our life is simple. We don't want luxury. We don't want luxury, but as we are accustomed in so many ways, as far as possible. But life should be very simple. To increase unnecessary things unnecessarily, that is material life.
Jyotirmayi: I was thinking in that way, simple clothes, no jewels, just like the boys, simple...
Prabhupada: Don't say "no." But give a taste for the good, then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no" then he'll, they will rebel. The four "no's," that is very difficult. Still they are breaking. No illicit sex, they are breaking. But if they develop Krsna consciousness, this will be automatically "no." So don't bring many "no's," but give them positive life. Then it will be automatically "no." And if you say "no," that will be a struggle. This is the psychology. Positive engagement is devotional service. So if they are attracted by devotional service, other things will be automatically "no." Param drstva nivartate. Just like Ekadasi day. Ekadasi day, we observe fasting. And there are many patients in the hospital, they are also fasting. But they'll "No, no." They'll, within heart, "If I get, I shall eat, I shall eat." But those who are devotee, they voluntarily "no." The same fasting is going on for the devotees and the hospital patient. And that "no" and this "no," there is difference. Param drstva nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. It is not meant for the mass of people, but at least if we keep a section of people ideal to the human society, they will be guided. At the present moment, there is no ideal section. Everyone is rascal, demons, rogues, everything. There is no ideal character. All politicians, scientists, leaders, they are all drunkards and woman-hunters. So what they can lead? There is no ideal man in the society. The politicians are giving big, big speech in the United Nations. They'll go to the same hotel where another debauchee is dancing and drinking. That's all. That is his character. Is it not? So what he will do? We can give a very big speech, that's all. What is his character? There is no ideal character in the present human society. Do they appreciate our, these restrictions?
Bhagavan: Our restrictions? Yes, they are impressed. They sometimes write about the Gurukula that we are treating roughly the children by making them so austere. But every time they show the picture, the children are always happy.
Prabhupada: They have standardized their happiness on these principlesillicit sex, meat-eating, gambling. That is the standard. And if you deny that, they say, "Oh, it is impossible. These are the primary principles of life." Yes. Such a big man like Rolan(?) said, he said, "Oh, it is impossible." He was a big man, philosopher, very nice gentleman; still, he said "Oh, it is impossible."
Jyotirmayi: You were saying that the children should learn these three, geography and these things, and I wanted to know if they should also learn what they call biology, that is how the body is working, what are the bones and blood and...
Prabhupada: What is the use?
Jyotirmayi: Just to have some general knowledge...
Prabhupada: Simply waste of time, simply waste of time.
Jyotirmayi: Even the basic of this?
Prabhupada: What is the basic? What you will know by that? Biology is going on, whether you study or not study. You are eating, it is transforming into blood, everyone knows. And how he's transforming into blood? What is the use?
Jyotirmayi: You were saying they should learn geography and history, just for general knowledge.
Prabhupada: That is because you have to go from America to India. You must know. (laughter) You have to calculate two plus two equal to four, a little mathematics. But this biology and this "logy," they are useless. There is no necessity. What you'll gain by understanding biology? Even one who knows biology, the medical man, he gives a tablet, "Perhaps it may help you." "Perhaps." He's not sure. So what is the use? First of all, he'll take one ounce of blood from you, and they send, this station, that station, now making a chart, then he'll give you a tablet, "Perhaps it may help." This is going on. Even the biggest pathologist, medical man, cannot guarantee that whatever medicine... [break]
Yogesvara: ...some group doctors? Some portion of the devotees medical knowledge?
Prabhupada: There is no harm, but when medical men are available by paying something, why should you waste your time? There are so many things we purchase, you pay for them. Not that we have to learn everything. So many things we have to do. Does it mean that you have to learn everything?
Hari-sauri: There's lots of doctors, but there's no brahmanas, devotees.
Prabhupada: Yes. So the principle is, don't waste time. If one has already learned medical science, all right, bring him to some service. But not that our men have to go to the medical college to learn medical science. That is not the point.
Jyotirmayi: So because we're in the country, I was taking the children in the land here and teaching them how to recognize the different plants. Is that useful, or should I not do that?
Prabhupada: Different plants?
Jyotirmayi: Plants, yes, here we have so many different plants growing, some medical plants, some that can be eaten. Is there any use?
Prabhupada: No. Different plants, that is botanical study, that has also no utilization. But you can teach them, "Just see, this plant is coming from earth. The earth is the mother of this plant." These things you can convince them. Is it not a fact? The grass is coming, the tree is coming, and the animal eating grass. Then the animal is coming. The man is eating food grains, then man is coming. So originally the earth is the mother, feeding everyone. Is there any denial? What do you think? So earth is the mother of all living entities, convince them. So all living entities are children. Mother earth is the mother. The father? Where is father, find out. Everyone has got idea, father, mother and children. Children are there. The mother is there. Where is the father? If somebody says "I have not seen father; how can I recognize father?" that does not mean... Because the mother is there, because the children are there, there must be father. If you do not know, try to know it from your mother, from your superior. From Veda-mata. You have to know from the Vedas.
Bhagavan: So at that young age they can very easily develop faith in Krsna and guru.
Prabhupada: Yes. Aham bija-pradah pita.
That's all. That study will be nice. Aham bija-pradah. Just like father gives the seed, similarly, Krsna gives the seed. The seed, when pushed into the womb of the mother and properly nourished, a rose plant comes out. This plant comes out. The seed is there. It is very easy. The father injects the seed within the womb of the mother, and the childs come out. Similarly, whatever is coming out from the earth, the seed-giving father is Krsna, and when the seed is pushed within the womb of the mother, then the plant is coming, and everything. This nature's law is going on. Where is the necessity of understanding more than this? We understand the mother is pregnant. Now how she has been, how the child is growing, that is not under your control. It is going on. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg. 3.27], immediately it is in hand of the nature. Even if you study, you cannot understand how things are arrangedthe intestine is joined to the navel of the child and the food is supplied, how it is mechanical: do you know everything? Can anyone do? Can anyone understand? But things are there. That is being done by prakrtih. Even if you study, you cannot understand. So best thing is to understand that it is being done by nature under the instruction of Supreme Lord. Let us chant Hare Krsna instead of studying these.... There are many students, many botanists, many.... They, vaguely they are studying, and the have no understanding of Krsna. They're denying, rather the father. The child has come into existence without father. This is their knowledge. So instead of becoming such a fool and rascal it is better not to study.
Jyotirmayi: I also thought of a way to help the children remember the Krsna book stories easier. It was... You started that long time ago with Madhupuri, you asked her to make the Krsna book into a poem. That was a long time ago in New York, then she didn't do it...
Prabhupada: Krsna book is not difficult to be understood by...
Jyotirmayi: I was thinking if we make into poem and put music and they sing it, then they can remember...
Prabhupada: That you can do, to make it understandable easily. It is already easy. If you want to make more easy, then do that.
Jyotirmayi: Okay. You also allowed... You said that some parents can keep their children with them and teach themselves.
Prabhupada: You follow that, brahmacari gurukula, that I've already explained. That should be done. Don't bring any new thing, imported ideas. That will not be helpful. It will be encumbrance. "My experiment with truth"Gandhi's movement. Truth is truth. "Experiment" means you do not know what is truth. It is a way of life, everything is stated there, try to train them. Simple thing. We are not going to teach biology or chemistry. They are not going to... Our students are not going to... Our students should be fit for teaching Krsna consciousness. By their character, by their behavior, by their knowledge, that is wanted. Biology, chemists, physicists, and mathematician there are hundreds and thousands. We are not going to waste our time that Gurukula should produce a great grammarian, a great geologist, biologist, don't want that. There are many other educational institutions. If you can get a good driver of your car, so what is the use of wasting your time to learn driving? Is it not? If you have got important business, you can do that. Why should you waste your time to learn driving? Better employ one driver, pay him some fare.
Harikesa: You once said in Vrndavana that the Marwaris, they don't bother going to school because they can make a lot of money by sitting by the phone and just pay a few rupees a day and any educated fool can do the work.
Prabhupada: Yes, they do that. They are employing in their factory, big, big chemist, big, big physicist, engineer and so on, but they do not bother. They are paying thirty thousand rupees per month salary, Birla. Expert, imported from foreign country, but their sons are never troubled. They know how to utilize that worker of thirty thousand rupees per month and to earn thirty lakhs from him. Why shall he waste his time? He knows how to they earn. They pay a man thirty thousand and through him earn thirty lakhs. Actually, in order to make a balanced society, the varnasrama-dharma is very important, cooperation. So these things are meant for the sudras, and brahmanas are not meant for this.
Devotee (1): You once told me that a brahmana must know how to do everything perfectly so that he can teach others.
Prabhupada: That may be, you may be a teacher, but you'll remain only a worker. That is another thing. Just like Dronacarya, he taught, he remained a teacher. So we can become a teacher of a particular subject matter, but that does not mean you should be worker. Still, there are many professors, they are teacher, they are not worker. But if the teachers are available, why you should become a teacher? Let them teach. We have to save our time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. After all, this, in the modern world they have invented so many varieties of occupations unnecessarily, to develop economic condition. Is it not? But our philosophy is that you cannot develop your economic condition than you are destined to suffer or enjoy. So one should not waste his time for so-called development of economic condition. He should utilize his time for advancing in Krsna consciousness, which was not possible in any other form of life. When we had cat's and dog's life, tree's life, we could not do that, development of Krsna consciousness. Now we have got human form of life, we should fully utilize it for developing Krsna consciousness. Why should we waste our time for economic development? Economic development is not possible. Then every work, every city, they are trying to develop this economic condition, but they're struggling. Why they word it of "struggle for existence" is there? It is not possible. Why there are varieties of social position? Everyone could come on the same standard. That is not possible. Anywhere you go, the three classes of men, upper class, middle class and lower class, is there. Is there any country where there is not these three classes, only the upper class? Is there any country? Then what is the use? Anywhere you'll go, you'll find this upper class, middle class and lower class. In the beginning, I thought that America, everyone is richer class. So when I came I saw the three classes are already there. The lower class, although the country has good facilities not to become lower class, still, voluntarily they are hippies, lower class. They are lying on the street. Although he has got very good opportunity to become first class, but he is lying on the street. Why? What is answer? British Empire, London, one is lying on the bench. New York, lying on the bench. There is no sufficient clothing? Why? Actually, he can live very comfortably, but why he's living in that condition? What is answer?
Harikesa: It's his nature.
Prabhupada: No, he has to live in that way. That is his destiny. You cannot change it by artificial ways. Even if he has got all the facilities, he will have to live like that. That is nature. Karanam guna sango 'sya sad-asad janma yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. This is... So therefore there is no use of so-called improvement. And you cannot do it. This is a fact. Tasyaiva hetoh prayeteta kovido. Find out this verse. Na labhyate yad bhramatam upary. Your standard of happiness and distress must be there because you are destined by the laws of nature. You have to suffer although you are born in America. In New York you can get very comfortable life there; still, you have lie down on the bench, lie down. Although you are born of a rich man's family, you have to become hippies, lie down here. Who can check this? What is that law. Do they know it? But there is a law. There will be a first class, second class, third class, fourth class. You cannot check it. Huh? New York City? So cared for? Nasty road, streets. And always, every moment-dung dung dung dung dung dung dung dung, gu gu gu gu gu gu gu-fire. Samsara-davanala-lidha-loka **. Fire is blazing. Despite all arrangement, fire is blazing. How can you stop it? Narottama dasa Thakura said samsara-bisanale, dibanisi hiya jvale. The blazing fire of poison is always going on. Taribare na kainu upaya. And one has to make ways how to get out of this fire. That is intelligence. Read that.
"Persons who are actually intelligent and philosophically inclined should endeavor only for that purposeful end which is not obtainable even by wandering from the topmost planet (Brahmaloka) down to the lowest planet (Patala). As far as happiness derived from sense enjoyment is concerned, it can be obtained automatically in course of time, just as in course of time we obtain miseries, even though we do not desire them."
Prabhupada: This is philosophy. What is the purport?
Harikesa: "Every man everywhere is trying to obtain the greatest amount of sense enjoyment by various endeavors. Some of them are busy engaged in trade, industry, economic development, political supremacy, etc., and some of them are engaged in fruitive work to become happy in the next life by attaining higher planets. It is said that in the moon the inhabitants are fit for greater sense enjoyment by drinking soma-rasa, and the Pitrloka is obtained by good charitable work. So there are various programs for sense enjoyment, either during this life or in the life after death."
Prabhupada: Such a pleasing planet, and these rascals say there is no life. The moon is described everywhere, the most pleasing planet. Actually, when there is moon in the sky, how it is pleasing. So that planet is meant for the high-class pious persons, and they get their life for ten thousands of years. They live very comfortably, drink soma-rasa. These are the descriptions we get from sastra. And these rascals say it is desert. And we have to believe them. And practically we see how pleasing it is. As soon as the moon planet is there, the whole atmosphere becomes pleasing. And it is desert. And we have to believe these rascal scientists and disregard the description of the sastra. What do you think? Is that very good intelligence?
Devotee: No.
Prabhupada: We disregard the statement of Vyasadeva, and we have to accept the statement of a rascal drunkard. (laughter) We are not so unfortunate. The unfortunate, they can believe that, we cannot believe.
Devotee (1): Now they have published pictures of Mars.
Prabhupada: Let them do that, befool others. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas [SB 7.5.31]. Because others, they are blind, this blind man, whatever he says, they believe. They will say "Perhaps ten millions of years ago there was life, perhaps." These things are going on. But we know every planet is full of living entity. There is regular life and there are streets. The streets are paved with pearls, corals, in Svargaloka. We have got information. And what is their information? Scratching some sand and bring it, that's all. As if sand is not available. But we give information there are planets where the pavements are with pearls. Go and bring some pearls. There is the ocean of milk. Bring some milk from there. And then we shall understand that you are making some research. Simply all over the universe dry sand? And here the population is increasing. Just see. We have to believe all this. Everything is by nature vacant and all people and animals are here. And we have to believe that. Hmm. Read it. They are exposing more and more about their nonsensical scientific inquiry.
Harikesa: "Some are trying to reach the moon or other planets by some mechanical arrangement, for they are very anxious to get into such planets without doing good work. But it is not to happen. By the law of the Supreme, different places are meant for different grades of living beings according to the work they might have performed. By good work only, as prescribed in the scriptures, can one obtain birth in a good family, opulence, good education and good bodily features. We see also that even in this life one obtains a good education or money or bodily beauty. Similarly, in our next birth we get such desirable positions only by good work. Otherwise it would not so happen that two persons born in the same place at the same time are seen differently placed according to the previous work. But all such material positions are not permanent. The positions in the topmost Brahmaloka and in the lowest Patala are also changeable according to our own work. The philosophically inclined person must not be tempted by such changeable positions. He should try to get into the permanent life of bliss and knowledge where he will not be forced to come back again to the miserable material world, either in this or that planet. Miseries and mixed happiness are two features of material life, and they are obtained in Brahmaloka and in other lokas also. They are obtained in a life of the demigods and also in the life of the dogs and hogs. The miseries and mixed happiness of all living beings are only of different degree in quality, but no one is free from the miseries of birth, death, old age and disease. Similarly everyone has his destined happiness also. No one can get more or less of these things simply by personal endeavors. Even if they are obtained, they can be lost again. One should not, therefore, waste time with these flimsy things, but one should only endeavor to go back to Godhead. That should be the mission of everyone's life."
Prabhupada: That is our position. We should not waste a single moment for so-called material things, happiness. Best save time and utilize it for advancing in Krsna consciousness. That's all?
Jyotirmayi: Yes, and just one more.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Jyotirmayi: Because you were saying that the parents can keep their children and teach them themselves, like Arundhati is teaching Aniruddha. So does it mean that the parents can...
Prabhupada: He complained that "My boy is not being properly..." So I said that "You teach your son."
Jyotirmayi: She can keep him and teach him all the time? Until he's older and so on?
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Yes. That is the duty of the father and mother. Along with that, he can teach others also. These things are to be organized. But some way or other, our students should be given education and spiritual life, Krsna consciousness. Individually, collectively, somehow or other. The principle is laid down there, brahmacari gurukule vasan danto guror-hitam. That's the beginning. Everything is there, we have to simply follow it. We haven't got to manufacture anything. That is a waste of time. Whatever is there, you follow. Is that all right?
Devotees: All glories to Srila Prabhupada. [break]
Devotee (1): ...silk.
Prabhupada: Thailand silk.
Devotee (1): Yes. He has invited me to go to Thailand to meet the Prime Minister in October.
Prabhupada: Oh, if there is an interview, you must go.
Devotee (1): Yes. Perhaps you would like to tell me on what level I should present our movement.
Prabhupada: On the level of Bhagavad-gita. God is the supreme controller. And we have to learn how to remain peacefully under the supreme controller. Just like citizens and the government. Good citizenship means one who lives under the control of the government. Similarly, a good person is one who is God conscious and lives according to the instruction of God. So there is instruction of God, we are presenting this all over the world.
Devotee (1): And they should give us some facilities?
Prabhupada: Yes. We want to preach. Here also, if you give us facility, we can preach. That is after your interest.
Devotee (1): This one gentleman has already offered one house in Bangkok. He's put at our disposal, in the middle of the city. A very beautiful house.
Prabhupada: Oh, that is very nice.
Devotee (1): But now I'm wondering how this should be managed, who should take charge of this project.
Prabhupada: No, we can send some men from India. Bangkok is not far away from India. If we get a living place, then we can find out. When there are rice thrown, the crows will come. If there is no rice, how the crows will come? This is the philosophy. (laughter) If there is living place, then many crows will come.
Devotee (1): So we can first go and see the situation and then contact our men in India.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Men will be supplied from India. What is his name? Send him some thanks.
Devotee (1): Yes, Mr. Bulson(?). I'll give it to you. Jaya, very nice.
Prabhupada: He's a Hong Kong man?
Devotee (1): No, he is from Thailand.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, Bangkok.
Devotee (1): And he's a multimillionaire. He owns approximately one third of all the land in Thailand.
Prabhupada: Oh!
Devotee (1): Chairman of many big businesses.
Prabhupada: You have given some books?
Devotee (1): He has received books.
Prabhupada: Where you will meet him?
Devotee (1): His former secretary is now a devotee in this temple, she is from Thailand. And when he came to visit her in Paris, she introduced me to him, and since then he has spoken about us to his family, to businessmen. Many big people in Thailand.
Hari-sauri: People in Thailand are quite pious.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are Indian culture. Their original culture is Indian. It is called Siam. (pronounces like Syama) Krsna's name. And they have got the airplane, Garuda.
Hari-sauri: Yes. Garuda Airlines.
Prabhupada: So they are devotees originally, all Krsna devotees.
Devotee (1): The king is speaking Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: Yes. It was known, it has been changed now. Formerly, it was known as Syam state, Siam. Syam is the name of Krsna. Whole state was named under Krsna. So, and they manufacture very nice idol of Radha-Krsna. They're accustomed.
Hari-sauri: They have a very strong Buddhist influence there now.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hari-sauri: Buddhist.
Prabhupada: Later on, they became Buddhist, but originally they were Vaisnava.
Devotee (1): So they will not make some objection if they think we are thinking we have come to preach Hinduism in a Buddhist country?
Prabhupada: It is not... Don't establish Deity. Talk on philosophy.
Devotee (1): "God is the supreme controller."
Prabhupada: Yes. We accept Lord Buddha as incarnation of God. Show in our books that we have got all respect for Buddha. We do not disrespect Lord Buddha, neither go against him. Anyway, if we get one house to live and a supporter, a big supporter, then our position will be secure. And if our cause is honest, then nobody can check.
Devotee (1): He has said that first I should come and speak to the Prime Minister and then speak at the University, and then see the reaction, and then we can go to see the king and say that this has been the reaction at the universities.
Prabhupada: Yes. Do it organizedly. They understand French language?
Devotee (1): Yes, English and French. They are very close to Vietnam.
Prabhupada: Very good. Take this opportunity.
Devotee (1): Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. (end)

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