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Room Conversation

April 23, 1976, Melbourne
Devotee (1): ...social welfare, and also he's minister for sport and recreation. He has come to see you, and this is his secretary.
Guest: Well, I am very pleased to have the opportunity of meeting you.
Prabhupada: Sit down.
Guest: How long have you been in Australia?
Prabhupada: Just up to Sunday. Monday we are going?
Pusta Krsna: Yes, we were here on the twentieth of July. We'll be here until Monday.
Guest: What's the main reason for your visit?
Prabhupada: Preaching Krsna consciousness, about Krsna. You have seen our books, our.... Show him.
Devotee (1): Have you seen Prabhupada's books? The books I was just showing you?
Guest: I am not very familiar with the books.
Prabhupada: We have got very good response for accepting our books all over the world, Krsna books.
Guest: The reason that I was most interested to come is that my responsibilities in Victoria are a lot to do with the growth of our young people, and I think that many of the things that we don't succeed in doing, the problems that we have with drugs and alcohol and all sorts of unhappiness, that what your life indicates has got something that I think we could do well to take parts of it, to be involved in the things, the way in which we live. And I'd be interested to hear from you as to what you would believe might be done to encourage a greater acceptance of your areas of philosophy and religion.
Prabhupada: Yes. Our philosophy is to purify, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Our philosophy is to purify the core of the heart from all dirty things. This is basic principle of our philosophy, ceto-darpana-marjanam, cleansing the core of the heart. So just this morning several boys and girls became initiated. So our first promise is, before the Deity, before the fire, before the Vaisnavas, before the spiritual master, that from this day no more illicit sex, no more intoxication, no more meat-eating, no more gambling. This is the first initiation. Then chanting Hare Krsna mantra. Very simple method. But one cannot practice these things without association of devotees. Nobody can do it outside. But here they are able; immediately they give up. All these boys, they were addicted to all these habits, but since they have come to the association, immediately they have given up, instantly. So you can bring any number of young men, and we shall be glad to make him free from all these things, practically engage him. It is open. If you like, you can take advantage.
Guest: Yes. I am thinking more in terms of our general education system, for example.
Prabhupada: This is the best education. Our education begins when we learn to see all women as mother. That is the beginning of education.
Guest: When we learn...
Prabhupada: It doesn't require Ph.D. degrees to train him in such a way that a person will see, except his married wife, all women as mother.
Guest: Women as?
Prabhupada: All women.
Pusta Krsna: As mother.
Guest: As mother.
Prabhupada: Mother. Matrvat para-daresu. This is the original system of education in India, matrvat para-daresu, to think of all women except his own wife as mother. Para-dravyesu lostravat: "Others' money as the garbage in the street." Nobody touches the garbage. Matrvat para-daresu para-dravyesu lostravat, atmavat sarva-bhutesu: "And one who sees all other living entities on the level of himself..." If you feel pinching, why should you pinch others? If one learns these three things, he is pandita, he is learned. And another three things,
When you accept Krsna, or God.... When I say Krsna, Krsna means God. God is the proprietor of everything. Just take for example the United Nation. They are going and making noise, full speeches, for the last fifty years, but the fighting is going on. But they do not.... Why do they not pass a resolution that "This earth planet..." Take.... Only take this earth planet, earthly planet. Other you leave aside. "This is the property of God, and we are all sons of God. Let us enjoy the property of the..." But you will not allow. You Australian, you have got so much land. You won't allow anybody to come because you think it is your land.
Guest: Yes, I think, ah, if you're looking at the...
Prabhupada: No, no, this is the principle. Actually it is not your land. You come from Europe.
Guest: I agree that it's not.
Prabhupada: But you are now claiming it is your land. The Africans, they are claiming. So much land, you can produce ten times food grains for as many population as there are. Ten times milk is required, food grain is required. That is the instruction of Bhagavad-gita. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44].
Guest: If we produced all of the foods that we could produce and we literally gave them away to other countries that need them, we'd produce a tremendous disincentive in those countries for their own production. I don't think it's as easy, the world...
Prabhupada: Production.... You take the total land as God's property, and all the population, they are sons of God. Then whole problem solved. Everything solved. If economic problem is solved, then social, political, religious, philosophical, everything is solved.
Guest: If there was exchange for that money, I think you'd be right.
Prabhupada: No money required. No money required. Simply one is required to work to produce food grain. That's all. No money required. And God has given us so much land that we can produce food grain and we can keep cows' milk, and from milk we derive so many rich, nutritious, full of vitamins foodstuff that the whole economic question solved immediately. But we are producing.... Instead of food grain, we are producing tobacco for smoking cigarette. We are producing coffee for going to hell. So how you can expect social reformation? In Africa I have seen. Instead of producing grain, they are producing coffee, tea, and keeping the cows for killing, making business to sell meat to other countries.
Guest: Is incense a form of intoxication?
Prabhupada: Incense? No. Why intoxication?
Guest: I don't know.
Prabhupada: Incense keeps the atmosphere very nice, fresh.
Guest: Very sweet-smelling.
Guru-krpa: This flower is not intoxicating.
Prabhupada: It is just like in your country, what is that fragrance? Scent. Scent.
Guru-krpa: Perfume?
Prabhupada: Perfume is very popular.
Guest: But I would have thought that in some ways it might have perform the same sort of function for some people as, say, smoking some cigarettes performs for others.
Prabhupada: No.
Guest: In other words, it...
Prabhupada: That depends on the particular man, what kind of flavor he wants. That is another thing. But there are different varieties of incense. Generally we use rose flavor, sandalwood flavor. We offer to the Deity room to keep the atmosphere very favorable. Originally in India it was dhupa. They used to put in the fire some flavored hulls, and it was very nice. That has been transferred into now stick incense.
Guest: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded...
Prabhupada: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life.
Guest: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables?
Prabhupada: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad-gita... You find out this verse. Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Krsna in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat? So He said that...
Guru-krpa: "If one offer me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it."
Prabhupada: Yes. Patram puspam phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram, a little flower, puspam, a little fruit, and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26], and after Krsna's eating, we take it. We are servant; we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Krsna. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasad-ian. We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals—no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadani catus-padam. These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Krsna. So whatever Krsna eats, we eat. If Krsna says that "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Krsna meat and eggs and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way.
Guest: Yes.
Prabhupada: So we are not for that way.
Guest: Well, why do you put the stricture on...
Prabhupada: Stricture in this way, no meat-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk?
Guest: So milk is very important.
Prabhupada: Very, very important.
Guest: In terms of production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals.
Prabhupada: No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically...
Guest: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains?
Prabhupada: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein, and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, dahl, mean pulses, and wheat, and.... These things contain.... Pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate; and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full..., and offer to Krsna, then it's purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasadam. If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all.
Pusta Krsna: You follow?
Guest: Not exactly.
Pusta Krsna: The food that we take is first offered to Krsna in the temple, so Krsna is the first to eat. And Krsna demands that "You offer Me this particular source of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Krsna the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become free from sinful reaction.
Guest: I see.
Prabhupada: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Krsna. This is our.... To become vegetarian.... There are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal. Or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat-eater, there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege.... The animals.... The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink.
Guest: Your Grace, do you keep in touch with the world through television or newspapers or the media?
Prabhupada: Yes, many newspaper, many television men, they come. But we speak our philosophy plainly.
Guest: Do you watch TV yourself?
Prabhupada: No, we have no business. We don't wish to waste our time.
Guest: Do you read newspapers?
Prabhupada: No. What is newspaper? "This man is killed. This man has stolen. This politician has captured the government." So why shall I waste time?
Guest: How do you become informed as to certain events? Is that...
Prabhupada: We have got enough books to read, these books. If you read our books, in your whole lifetime you cannot finish it. And that is required to understand Krsna. That is success of life. So why should.... Of course, we are in touch in the newspaper, but as much as it is required. We are in touch with the material world as much as it is required. We are interested in Krsna. To help our Krsna consciousness we may be in touch with the material world as much as possible. Just like we are riding car also, we are also using dictaphone, everything, but it is not for any ulterior purpose. It is for Krsna's service. Just like we are writing books. This is Krsna's service. People may understand about Krsna, be benefited. This is our.... And in that way we are printing books, we are selling books, we are writing books.
Guest: How many people are in the Krsna movement in the world, about?
Prabhupada: About ten to twelve thousand, directly dedicated. Otherwise millions, they are reading our books. They have sympathy. We are selling books very nicely, daily twenty thousand dollar minimum all over the world. In learned circle, big, big universities, professors, they are appreciating. We have many congratulations.
Guest: And the funds that you derive from the books...
Prabhupada: Book Trust. That is explained.
Guest: ...are used within your congre..., within the people that live in...
Prabhupada: Yes. I make a Book Trust. That is my will, that from all the collection of the books fifty percent for reprinting and fifty percent for expanding these temples, these buildings. In this way.
Pusta Krsna: We really don't require very much for our maintenance. As you can see, we live a very simple life.
Prabhupada: Just like these boys, they are practiced to sit down. We have kept two chairs for the visitors. (laughter) We don't require. We can lie down on the floor. We can use only one or two cloths, that's all, throughout the whole year. We have no demands, only bare necessities. We don't smoke, don't drink. There is no expenditure. Don't go to cinema, don't read newspaper or ordinary magazines, nothing. We have got reading matter. Practically we are noncooperating.
Guest: Practically?
Prabhupada: Noncooperating.
Guest: Noncooperating?
Pusta Krsna: Practically.
Guest: I don't understand that.
Pusta Krsna: Because we are not engaged in so many of the superfluous or unnecessary...
Prabhupada: Material amenities.
Pusta Krsna: These things are described in Vedic terms as anartha. They are not very important or very valuable to human advancement. What is really essential is advancement in knowledge.
Guest: One of the principles upon which I have lived is a question of involvement with the people around me in trying to do things better than they have been done before.
Prabhupada: But you must know first of all what is the aim of life and what is better. That we must know. So that is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that we are not interested in God; then whole thing is spoiled. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah [SB 7.5.31]. We are not interested in God. We want to be happy by adjusting the external energy of God. That is blind leadership. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah. This will never be successful, and it is blind leadership because we do not know what is the aim. If you know the aim of life and if we make program according to that aim, then it will be successful. Blindly everyone is manufacturing his objective, different leaders, different isms. The Communists, they have got different aims. The capitalists, they have got different aims. The socialists, they have got different aims.
Guest: Is it true that there are more young people now in the world that are giving more serious thought to what life is really all about?
Prabhupada: Yes, they should. Because they are being educated, they are experiencing the faults of their fathers and grandfathers.
Guest: And they're able to tell that?
Prabhupada: So we are telling this is the aim. You take. And therefore more response from the younger section. All our devotees, they are just like my grandchildren. Their fathers may be like my children. But they are responsive.
Guest: How do you spend a day?
Prabhupada: Day?
Pusta Krsna: How do we.... What do we do during the day? What are our activities?
Prabhupada: We have got activities day and night, but because the body is there, we have to eat, but we eat Krsna prasadam. And naturally we go to sleep, to take some rest. Otherwise we are always engaged in Krsna's business. We have no other business. So I go in the morning for little morning walk because the body, whole day if I sit down, it may be jammed. Therefore, for body's sake, I go for little walking. And then, whole day and night, I am sitting here, either chanting or writing books or talking with you, giving them direction. That's all. We have no other business than Krsna's business. That is the peculiarity of this movement. Even if you take it is a religious movement, there is no religious movement in the whole world which has got twenty-four hours' engagement. You'll never find. The Christians go to the church once in a week for one hour, then closed. That is also not very regularly. Even if you take.... Our engagement. Twenty-four hours.
Pusta Krsna: Every day.
Prabhupada: Every day. You can see how we are engaged twenty-four hours.
Guru-krpa: Prabhupada gets up at one o'clock in the morning.
Prabhupada: Last night I woke up at half past twelve. (laughter) Yes. So on the whole, utmost, I sleep four hours, two hours at night and two hours in daytime.
Guest: I must.... Your Grace, I'm most grateful to have seen you. I must depart. Thank you very much for having me here.
Prabhupada: Why, thank you for your coming. Hare Krsna. Give him prasada.
Guest: Good-bye. [break]
Prabhupada: ...misleader. But he himself has no character. So here it is open secret, to keep a beautiful girl as secretary, everywhere in Europe and America. So where is purity? Purity? Marriage is a taboo, and keep secretary is very good job. And you can get secretary even free of charge. Rather, she will pay. So this is going on. In Vedic civilization marriage is one of the important function of life. As death is important function, birth is important function, similarly, marriage is also important function. Janma-mrtyu-vivaha. So in this age everywhere, not only.... The marriage is now farce. This is the symptom of Kali-yuga. There will be no more marriage. Svikara eva codvahe. Even there is marriage, there will be simply an agreement. That is happening, and it was written five thousand years ago. Svikara eva. Svikara means by agreement, signing agreement. No marriage function. Otherwise marriage is a.... According to Vedic system, if one has got some money, he will spend the money in three functions. When the child is born, very gorgeously he will spend money, give in charity. Always in the Bhag... Nanda Maharaja is giving in charity cows and money, and Yudhisthira Maharaja is giving. Krsna, as family man, He was giving in charity. So when the child is born, the horoscope is made, and to make the child happy, blessings of saintly persons, brahmanas, they are given. Ordinary men also sumptuously fed. So bhuribhih.(?) Everyone gives some blessings so that the child is.... Then marriage. During marriage time.... You have seen Krsna's mother's marriage? That was the system. The father gives to his heart content, as much as possible, to the daughter. The Krsna's mother was royal prince, so her father gave so many elephants, so many horses, so many chariots. That was the system. [break] This sraddha ceremony. That is also, feeding the learned brahmanas, saintly person, poor man, relative. Lavishly they spend money during three occasions: birth, death, and marriage. During birth the father spends; the marriage, father spends; and death, the son spends. This is the system. So social reformation, but there is no idea how the society will be happy. There is no idea. They are trying to remove this intoxication, LSD, but do not see the cause why LSD has come. They do not try to stop that cause. When the cause is effective, then they are disturbed with the effect. This is the defect. Neither they'll take advice. So how they'll be able to.... Big, big officer, drawing high salary, that's all. There is no effect. Neither there can be any effect. It is not possible. They do not know. Neither they want it. So we are advocating, "Remove these four sinful activities," so nobody will agree. "Illicit sex is our life, to keep a friend, to keep a secretary." And we are advising, "No illicit sex." Then where is life? That's all.
Devotee (2): They say, "Why should I live if I can't do these things?"
Prabhupada: Hm?
Devotee (2): One devotee in New Zealand, his father was dying of leukemia. He told his father to stop eating meat and smoking cigarettes, and his health would improve. His father said, "If I can't do these things, what is the use of living?"
Prabhupada: So somebody should.... [break] ...committed suicide?
Hari-sauri: Ernest Hemingway. Ernest Hemingway. When he found out, when the doctor told him he couldn't have sex life anymore, he killed himself.
Pusta Krsna: He was a very big and rich author.
Prabhupada: This is the important men.
Guru-krpa: That one Marwari spent eighteen lakhs of rupees.
Prabhupada: I do not know eighteen lakhs, but I know he went to Germany for medical operation and changing the gland with monkey's gland. Yes. He was eighty years old at that time.
Devotee (2): The leaders are so infected. There was an article recently...
Prabhupada: Therefore I say, andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. That is already dictated by Bhagavata. These leaders, rascals who are blind, and they are trying to lead other blind men. All of them are falling in the ditch.
Pusta Krsna: In the case of Maharaja Vena there was some recourse for the brahmanas. What can we do?
Prabhupada: Yes, brahmanas were controlling the ksatriyas. They were obeying the instruction of brahmanas. That is social function. The first-class man will give instruction to the government, and the government will carry the order, "Whether people are actually doing this?" Brahmana, ksatriya. And vaisya will produce food grain and milk sufficiently. And the sudras, they will help these three higher classes. That's all. This is social system. [break] The brahmanas, they will be always engaged to make plan how people will be successful in the aim of life. And that will be executed through the ksatriyas. And the vaisyas will supply foodstuff. Food is also required. And good government is required, and nice direction is required. This is brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya. And sudra, they have no brain; they will abide by the orders of these higher sections, that's all. So our movement is creating first-class brahmana, and the ksatriyas, if they abide by our instruction-our instruction means Krsna's instruction—then everything will be nicely done. Sannyasis, they have begun to keep secretaries.
Prabhupada: So many. This tail, dog's tail. Either you become sannyasi or grhastha or anything, the tail is this side. You may grease it as much as possible, but the whole tendency is sex, that's all, in different dresses only. The objective is sex. This is going on. Some of them are openly declaring that "I am for sex," and some of them showbottle. But the objective is sex. This is the whole world. Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham kanduyanena karayor iva duhkha [SB 7.9.45]. And the sannyasis like Rajneesh, they are advocating, "This is life—sex. By sex indulgence you get salvation." These Brahma-kumaris. Not brahmacari but Brahma-kumari. Kumaris are available very easily. And they keep. And the rich men, they are supplied with nice, beautiful kumaris. They pay money. This is going on. Brahma-kumari. They enjoy and they invite the karmis to enjoy and get money. Kumari is there; money is there, that's all. Everywhere this is going on.
Pusta Krsna: This just came from Los Angeles along with some other things. They're having an international yoga and meditation conference in Chicago in June, and Ramesvara was wanting to know if we should send some of our preachers there, try and have some kind of a booth or take part in it.
Prabhupada: If it is possible.
Pusta Krsna: It is sponsored by the Himalayan International Institute of Yoga Science and Philosophy, Swami Rama from the Himalayas.
Prabhupada: Bogus. He's a bogus. Then don't take part.
Pusta Krsna: There's many.... It's costing fifteen dollars for people to get in.
Prabhupada: So we are not going to give.
Pusta Krsna: Most.... I have looked over the people who are speaking. Most of them are from this society. It seems what they've done, they've taken some of the big bhogis in America like Satchidananda and others, and they've invited them to draw bigger crowds. So they're taking this opportunity for money. I think we'll probably sell books there, anyway.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Pusta Krsna: I'm sure that our devotees will sell books.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can have a book stall.
Guru-krpa: Outside, though.
Pusta Krsna: Somehow or another.
Guru-krpa: We usually do outside.
Prabhupada: There is no use taking part in that meeting. Simply take a book stall. "Bhakti-yoga books." Give a signboard, "Bhakti-yoga books." And give the picture of Dhruva Maharaja, five-years-old boy, executing bhakti-yoga alone in the forest. We have got meditation. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1]. That is real yoga. And Bhagavad-gita, yoginam api... These slokas, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana [Bg. 6.47]. One who's chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, he is first-class yogi. Give one picture of the devotees chanting in a very nice place, and give evidence, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana: "This, first-class yogi. Here is first-class yogi." That will be our preaching. Dhruva Maharaja is practicing yoga. There are many others. The highest perfection is Radharani, that simply crying, "Krsna has gone to Mathura, not coming back." That is the..., the whole day and night crying. Who can perform this yoga? So if you, if possible, draw pictures.... Satchidananda, he is also a leader? He has?
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yogi Bhajan also?
Pusta Krsna: Yes. Kriyananda, Swami Nada Brahmananda from Hrishikesh, Swami Ajaya, Ph.D., from Madison, Wisconsin. (laughter) It's a small college town in America. Yogi Bhajan? There's many others. A lot of Indian doctors from Canada, India and America.
Prabhupada: So you can give yogi import that "Hare Krsna is the greatest of all yoga systems."
Pusta Krsna: Topmost yoga.
Prabhupada: Yes. And quote from Bhagavad-gita. Show pictures.
Pusta Krsna: Would you like to take your massage now, Srila Prabhupada? [break]
Guest (2): ...interesting. I see Elder Forester(?) in myself. We feel that we're called to God through a living prophet ourselves. And our feeling is in our own hearts we feel that we have a living feeling in what we call a testimony of Christ. And we feel that he is our savior and that he did atone for the sins of the world. And we were wondering what your feelings were about this.
Prabhupada: Our feeling is direct, carrying the orders of God. The direct orders are there, and we have to carry. Anukulyena krsnanusilanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], favorably to carry out the order of Krsna. Krsna means God.
Guest (2): Krsna means God.
Prabhupada: So favorably. What God says, "You do it"—we have to do.
Guest (2): Great. Okay, supposing when you die, how will there.... Will there be another man of your sort who people would look to, like these here?
Prabhupada: Many. Anyone who will carry out the order, he'll be prominent.
Guest (2): Oh, I see. So you just carry the order out fully.
Prabhupada: And I teach my students to carry out. So anyone who will carry out the orders strictly, he will be perfect.
Guest (2): What do you feel is the greatest order of God?
Prabhupada: To surrender unto Him.
Guest (2): Pardon?
Prabhupada: To surrender to Him.
Devotee (4): Surrender.
Guest (2): Surrender, oh. I think you're.... I believe that. It's interesting. Our prophet, when he passes on, we believe that another prophet will be called in his place by God to carry on.
Prabhupada: "By God" means.... Anyone who will carry out the order of God without any change, he is prophet.
Guest (3): I have a question. Do you know much of Mormonism?
Prabhupada: No.
Guest (3): No. Could I just share one experience, and I'd like your feeling on this. This is one thing that, the reason that we come throughout the world, and that is that we believe that in the year 1820 that there was a young man, Joseph Smith, who was confused about religion. And in this confused state he sought the Bible, and he read James 1:5, and the inspiration was to go seek God and ask Him in prayer. And in his prayer he had an experience where God the father and His son Jesus Christ appeared to him. Now, see this is what we base our religion about, is that a young man saw God and was visited by Him and His son Jesus Christ, and through him They used him as an instrument in restoring His true church. Now that's our testimony, and we believe this with all of our heart. We feel that it's built upon the spirit and that it's through prayer and study that we've found this. Now, what's your feeling about that?
Prabhupada: No, if he has seen God, then God has given him some message.
Guest (3): Right.
Prabhupada: What is that message?
Guest (4): We believe that the message that God gave him was that the true church was not on the earth, and we believe that through Joseph Smith the true gospel of Jesus Christ was once again restored to the earth with all its power, with all its authority, and with the holy priesthood.
Prabhupada: So Jesus Christ is authorized.
Guest (4): Yes, Jesus Christ...
Prabhupada: So what is the order of Jesus Christ?
Guest (4): We believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's right, but what Jesus Christ says?
Devotee (4): What does Jesus Christ say? What is Jesus Christ saying? What are his instructions?
Guest (3): Well, Jesus Christ, we believe that when he lived as a mortal man, he organized the church, and the people followed him...
Prabhupada: What is the instruction?
Guest (3): The instructions to Joseph Smith was, well, in a ten-year period of time, from 1820 to 1830 many things happened to Joseph Smith. One thing was that he was visited by an angel called Moronai, who lived fourteen hundred years earlier in the Americas, and he was a prophet, and he wrote a book and sealed it away, and it was written on gold plates. Joseph Smith translated this ancient work of Egyptian hieroglyphics into English, and it was called the Book of Mormon after a great prophet.
Prabhupada: So what is the message?
Guest (3): Well, the message is that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the kingdom of God.
Prabhupada: So what is the church of Jesus Christ?
Guest (3): Well, Jesus Christ's church, that's simply it.
Prabhupada: What is that? What does he say, that "You do this. You do not do this"?
Guest (3): I don't understand what...
Guest (4): You mean the Commandments and...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (4): Oh. There's many Commandments in the church. We believe that Jesus Christ commanded Joseph Smith to restore the church.
Prabhupada: No, what is the Commandments?
Guest (4): This is one of them, that the church should be run by a prophet and twelve apostles. We believe in what is called the word of wisdom. This is abstaining.... This is much like your...
Prabhupada: Church. Church means.... Suppose.... There is no specific message that "The church should be conducted on this principle"? Is there any such message?
Guest (3): I think that the real thing is people have to accept Christ as their savior and make his atonement effective. See, when he made his atonement...
Prabhupada: What about his Commandments?
Guest (3): Well, his Commandments are.... We believe that Christ gave them to Moses as a...
Prabhupada: So what are the Commandments? You simply say, "It was given to him, it was given to him, it was given..."
Guest (3): The Ten Commandments?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): Those Commandments we follow? We believe Commandments of living the Sabbath Day, law of chastity...
Prabhupada: So whether they are being followed?
Guest (3): Yes.
Prabhupada: Chastity is being followed?
Guest (3): Yes. The church teaches it, and people who do not obey it are bringing condemnation upon themselves.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is my injunct..., that if.... The commandment is that women should be chaste.
Guest (3): Exactly.
Prabhupada: And you should not kill. But all the Christians are killing.
Guest (3): Well...
Prabhupada: And it is very hard to find out a woman chaste.
Guest (3): That's true.
Prabhupada: Then where is Christian?
Guest (3): Well, see, this is the great thing of the atonement. See, when Christ suffered the sins of the world on Gethsemane...
Prabhupada: So why for your sin Christ should suffer?
Guest (3): Christ suffered for my sins.
Prabhupada: Yes, why?
Guest (3): Well, because he loved us and he was the only begotten son of God.
Prabhupada: That means you'll go on committing sins and Christ will suffer?
Guest (3): No, see Christ only forgives when you repent. See what I mean? See, this is the thing I want to say...
Prabhupada: But this has become a business, that I commit sin and repent. "We believe, I repent, and again I commit sin." Do you think it is very good business?
Guest (3): Well, see this is the thing. Christianity has made it a business. So what we're saying is we...
Prabhupada: That means they are not Christians.
Guest (3): That's right.
Prabhupada: So then where is Christian?
Guest (3): Well, the Christian world that the majority of the people think is...
Prabhupada: Majority is not the calculation. Minority. If one person carries out the order of Christ, then he is Christian.
Guest (3): Exactly.
Prabhupada: Otherwise they are not Christians.
Guest (3): That's right. But I just wanted to say one thing...
Prabhupada: Our principle is that if one person carries out the order of God, he is actually the prophet. If he does not carry out—simply by dress he is prophet—it is useless.
Guest (3): I see. All right. We have a little different feeling about that.
Prabhupada: Why it should be different?
Guest (3): Well, we would...
Prabhupada: If you [are] actually the servant of God, you must carry out the orders of God. There cannot be difference. If there is difference, that means you are no longer servant of God.
Guest (3): Well, we feel that God has always had prophets and called them Himself, as he called Mike Aran.(indistinct)
Prabhupada: But how the prophet can disobey the original orders of God or Christ?
Guest (4): How can a prophet disobey? We don't.... A prophet doesn't disobey. We believe that the prophet at the head of our church, Spencer W. Kimble, speaks with God...
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Guest (3): And he conveys His messages on to us as church members and on to the rest of the world.
Prabhupada: My point is.... Just like the two points here: chastity and nonviolence. But this is not being carried out.
Guest (3): Well, we agree.
Prabhupada: Then where is the prophet and where is the followers?
Guest (3): Well, see, the prophet is teaching the people about this and teaching them to live it.
Prabhupada: That means people are not obeying the prophet.
Guest (3): Well, people are. We are.
Prabhupada: Then how it is said that.... How they are killing animals? How the women are unchaste?
Guest (4): All people aren't following the prophet. All people in your belief aren't following you completely.
Prabhupada: That is very nice. My point is that if we follow God—God's message is carried by prophet, and prophet if obeyed by the people—then the religion is in order. Otherwise it is a bogus religion.
Guest (3): Well, I think we would agree there.
Prabhupada: We must follow; then it is all right. We don't follow, and still we rubberstamp, "I am Christian. I am this. I am that." This is the disease.
Guest (3): Would you agree that Christ is the greatest master of all?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We accept him as our guru.
Guest (3): What is the...
Prabhupada: Guru means prophet, yes.
Guest (3): What about a savior?
Prabhupada: Savior? Who saves the followers from the danger of materialistic way of life, which means transmigration of the soul from one body to another.
Guest (3): Do you believe in a resurrection?
Prabhupada: Resurrection? What do you mean actually? But it is a fact that one, the soul, is changing from one body to another.
Guest (4): That's what.... We agree.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like you are young man. You had a body of a child. That child's body.... You remember that you had a body of a child, but that body is no longer existing. But you remember; therefore you, the owner of the body, is existing. Otherwise how do you remember, "I had a body like, like this," measurement? But that body is no longer existing, so you are remembering. So you are the owner of the body. Just like you have now black coat. Say after two days you may put on another color coat, but you remember that "I was putting on one black coat on that day." So you are existing; the coat is changed. Similarly, the soul is existing; the body is changed. Therefore it is natural that I am old man. When I change this body, I get another body. This is resurrection, if you say.
Guest (3): I believe that, yes. That's what we believe put in a philosophical way.
Prabhupada: It is not belief, it is fact. You believe or not believe, it will take place.
Guest (4): Yes, that's right, it will take place.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (4): We just see it differently. We believe that after this life we'll be resurrected into a glorified, perfect body of flesh and bones and...
Prabhupada: That's nice. That we say. We say twice, that.... Just last night I was discussing that this human form of life is to make our choice, whether we are going to get a body back to home, back to Godhead, or again we are going in the cycle of birth and death. This is our choice. If we act according to the orders of God, then we go to Him, back to home, back to Godhead. And if we still whimsically act, then I go again in the cycle of birth and death. That's a fact.
Guest (3): Well, we.... See, we desire and strive to follow out the orders of God.
Prabhupada: That is perfection of life. But if we don't do that, then we are going again to the evolutionary process...
Guest (4): That's right.
Prabhupada: ...of birth and death. It will depend on my action.
Guest (3): Exactly. Will you agree with this point, that we are not perfect?
Prabhupada: Well, anyone who follows the order of God, he is perfect. Otherwise all are...
Guest (3): Can you be completely perfect and follow the orders perfectly?
Prabhupada: Yes, why not? Just like what is the order of God? God wants that "You shall always think of Me, 'The God is my Supreme Father.' " So what is the difficulty? Now, if you think, "God is the Supreme. God is the Supreme Father," if you think like that, where is the difficulty?
Guest (4): We believe that God is Supreme, He is like you say. But we believe we are constantly striving to become perfect, every day.
Prabhupada: No, why constantly striving? God says that "You think of Me." So where is my difficulty to think of Him unless I am disobedient? I can think of God always. There is no difficulty. There is no expenditure. There is no disadvantage. But if I am rascal, I'll disobey. That is the.... If I am rascal, then I will disobey. I will not think of God. I'll think of something else.
Guest (3): Well, this is.... I guess you have a different...
Prabhupada: Why different?
Guest (3): ...concept of Christ because we...
Prabhupada: No, no, Christ said that "You accept me as the Supreme." So why the people do not accept him as the Su...?
Guest (3): Well, we accept him, but, see, he had to be a savior...
Prabhupada: But you accept him in this way, that "Let me commit all kinds of nonsense, and Christ will suffer."
Guest (3): No, no. We don't.... See, we believe...
Prabhupada: Do the Christians not think like that?
Guru-krpa: Yes.
Prabhupada: They think like that.
Guru-krpa: "Christ has died for our sins," but they continue to sin.
Guest (3): Yes, many people do. But see, what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that I...
Prabhupada: You are.... Individually it is all right. But people think like that, that "Christ has taken contract..."
Guest (3): Well, they're wrong.
Prabhupada: "...that whatever nonsense we do, he will suffer, and let us do it."
Guest (3): We will have to suffer if we do not repent. See, we have a scripture that...
Prabhupada: And they say Christ will suffer.
Guest (3): He has already suffered.
Prabhupada: But they say, still they will suffer. Therefore Christian religion is...
Guest (3): He has suffered...
Prabhupada: The Christian people say like that, that "We cannot become pious. We.... Let us go on doing all nonsense, and Christ will suffer." Is that very good?
Guest (3): I agree with you, see. I really do. But what I'm saying is I believe that we're not all perfect, and we're working for perfection.
Prabhupada: No, no, I say that what is the difficulty to become perfect?
Guest (3): Well, we have to learn and...
Prabhupada: That means we are nonsense. If there is no difficulty to become perfect and still we remain imperfect, that means we are nonsense.
Guest (3): I see, well, okay.
Prabhupada: That means you are first-class nonsense.
Guest (3): I see. All right, well...
Prabhupada: Where is the difficulty? Christ's picture is there. Suppose we have got our picture, Krsna. So all right, don't believe in Krsna. But you have got picture of Christ, and you can see that he is being crucified. The cross is your symbol.
Guest (4): We don't worship the dead Christ.
Prabhupada: You may not, but Christians.... The Christians, they put the cross, a reminder that "Christ suffered for us." This is the cross. So we became sinful, and the Lord, he suffered for us. We should stop this sinful activity. That is sanity. But "Christ will suffer, he'll be repeatedly crucified, and we shall go on with our nonsense activity." Is that religion?
Guest (3): Well, I agree with you there.
Prabhupada: So that is the point.
Guest (3): But I have a different thought and feeling.
Prabhupada: You may have, but we are talking on the principle that if we are so base and fallen down that we go on committing sinful life and "Christ will be crucified; I'll be saved," that way is said, what kind of religion? "One should continually suffer for my sin, and I am free to act sinfully." Is that religion?
Guest (3): Well, we don't believe that Christ continues to suffer.
Prabhupada: No, but the Christians do that. They are maintaining.... Christ says, "Thou shall not kill," and they are maintaining thousands of killing house, and still they are passing on as Christian.
Guest (3): Well, they're wrong.
Prabhupada: That is the point.
Guest (3): I agree with you.
Prabhupada: So you should tell them.
Guest (3): Well, we are. That's what we're here for.
Prabhupada: Yes, that "You are not Christian. Don't call yourself as Christian. You are persistently disobeying, beginning..." Christ said, "Thou shall not kill," and the Christians began killing Christ, crucifying Christ. And that is going on still, in large scale, and they are still Christian. The Pope is eating meat and.... I do not wish to say so many things. These are going on, and still, they are Christians. What can I say?
Guest (3): Do you believe that...
Prabhupada: It is not a question of believe or not believe. We are talking of fact.
Guest (3): Well, okay. Would, say, the cutting down of a plant, vegetable.... You are killing the growth there. Is that a living matter?
Prabhupada: Killing means that you have to eat something. Our philosophy is that we cannot stop killing, but there is no unnecessary killing.
Guest (3): We agree. We only kill for what we need.
Prabhupada: Yes. But you.... Just like in.... Just a minute before, I ate so many nice fruits. So these fruits are meant for human being. Why shall I eat meat?
Guru-krpa: The same grain.
Devotee (4): It was Mormon scripture that said also, I read it, God is speaking, and He requests not to eat meat except in times of famine and starvation.
Guest (4): That's right.
Devotee (4): But the Mormons don't do that. They still eat meat.
Guru-krpa: You're feeding the cow, the beef, grains which you could eat.
Devotee (4): What does the cow eat? Grains.
Guru-krpa: You are feeding the beef grains to fatten it for slaughter, but you could eat the same grains and be healthy.
Guest (2): That's true. And we have many people who are in the church who strive to teach people of the church to eat more grains and milk products and...
Guru-krpa: That is not the point Srila Prabhupada is making.
Prabhupada: No, point is that every living being has to eat another living being. That is the law of nature.
Guest (2): Right.
Prabhupada: Jivo jivasya jivanam. That we admit. But in the human form of life if one thinks—now they are eating—that "Another living being is my food, so I kill my own child and eat," so you mean to say to apply the same law, that "A living entity is food for another living entity. Therefore a human being kill his own child and eat?"
Guest (2): Well, see, we...
Prabhupada: "Discrimination is the best part of valor." So you have to eat something, but if you have got grains, vegetables, milk, very nice preparation, why should you kill cow?
Guest (2): Well, we believe that the Lord ordained that food for man, and that He even said in scripture to the prophet...
Prabhupada: So He said? He ordained cow for your food?
Guest (2): He ordained meat. Yes.
Devotee (4): But only in times of starvation and famine.
Guest (2): Well, the matter.... It also said...
Devotee (4): That is the word of wisdom in the Mormon scripture.
Guest (2): I don't want to get in contentions about it, but the scripture also says that who abstains from meat is not ordained of God. So you can take it whatever way you want.
Prabhupada: What is that? "One who abstains from meat"?
Guest (2): Well, he's trying to say that the Mormons overeat meat. And all I'm saying is, well, the scripture which was revealed to the modern-day prophet Joseph Smith was that "Whoever.... Who does abstained from meat is not ordained of God." And I have no intentions to get contentious about it. So all I'm saying is I'm honored to be here, and it's good to be here.
Prabhupada: No, no, the point is that in the Commandment it is clearly said, "Thou shall not kill." So what does it mean? That unless there is absolute necessity, we shall not kill.
Guest (2): I think that's right, and I feel that way.
Prabhupada: So when.... At least in America or any civilized country, there is ample food for human being. Why they should kill? If you can live without killing cows, if you can utilize cows in a different way.... Just like we are maintaining a farm—not one, many. They are maintaining cows and we are getting enough milk. And from milk we can prepare varieties of palatable, vitaminous, nutritious food. And that is very, very enjoyable. So let the animal live and take the milk, and just like we.... None of us, we take meat, but we are not dying. We are having so many nice preparation from milk, from grains, from fruit. Besides that, our another principle is that we offer to God. So God said that "Give Me vegetables, milk," like that. Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So we offer these things, and we take the leftover. That is our principle. We are not after killing or not killing. We are simply after obeying the orders of Krsna. That is our. So Krsna says, "Give Me food from the vegetables." So we offer Him very nice, palatable dishes and eat. This is our principle. So even while eating, we remember God: "Krsna has so nicely eaten this. Let me take the remnants." So while eating, we are remembering God. So if God said that "You remember Me always," we can do it. He has explained how to remember Him. He said, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya: [Bg. 7.8] "I am the taste of the water." So when you drink.... Who is not drinking water? At least three times, four times we drink water, everyone. So when you drink, and the water quenches your thirst, and you feel some taste nice, Krsna says, God says, "I am that taste." So where is my difficulty to remember God? If you simply remember this formula, that "The taste of the water is Krsna," immediately you remember Krsna. Prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. "I am the shining of the sun, shining of the moon." So who does not see the shining of the sun and the moon? At night you see the shining of moon, and day you see.... So where is the chance of forgetting God? There is no chance at all. As soon as you see the sunshine even, "Oh, here is Krsna." As soon as see the moonshine, "Oh, here is Krsna." As soon as you taste water, "Oh, here is Krsna." So in this way there is list that you cannot avoid the chance of remembering Krsna. Every moment, every time, you can remember Krsna. And Krsna, God, says, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah: "You always think of Me." So where is my difficulty to think of Krsna? Unless I purposefully do not do it. It is not that when I go to the church and temple I can remember. I can remember Him twenty-four hours. That is Krsna consciousness.
Guest (2): I think that's right, and I think that many people I know personally are what you say Krsna conscious. They think of God and Christ twenty-four hours a day too.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is wanted.
Guest (2): And...
Prabhupada: That is wanted. We obey the orders of Christ—we think of always—then we are perfect. Either Christ, the son of God, or God, Krsna, the same thing. God and son of God, they are not different.
Guest (3): We were wondering if we could give you a personal gift that means a lot to us. We've got a Book of Mormon with us, and I don't know if you have one.
Prabhupada: No.
Guest (3): But we feel that it's a scripture written by ancient people who lived in the South and Central American continents from the years 600 B.C. to A.D. 400. And we thought that this was kind of a special opportunity, and we didn't know if you had one. And we were wondering if we could leave you one.
Prabhupada: Yes, you can leave.
Guest (3): Great. I've got it right here. We don't want to take too much more of your time. We'll leave you our card. Would that be all right?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (3): It's been a very enjoyable experience.
Prabhupada: No, you can give one book, Isopanisad.
Guru-krpa: Can you take one of our books?
Guest (3): Fine. It would be an honor.
Guru-krpa: We'll read this. We promise to read this if you promise to read that.
Guest (3): Fine.
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of...
Guru-krpa: Because he has read.
Prabhupada: So you can read one of the best portion from this book.
Guest (3): Pardon me?
Prabhupada: Recite the best portion. Of course, everywhere is best. Still...
Guest (3): All right. Let me think for one moment. (pause) Let me read just a couple verses here, and then I'll read a few more here. "Believe in God..." (to other Mormon:) Would you read this?
Guest (4): I'm tired and my voice is tired.
Guest (3): These two verses.
Guest (4): "Believe in God, believe that He is and that..."
Prabhupada: "Believe that"?
Guest (4): "That He is."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (4): "...both in heaven and in earth. Believe that He has all wisdom and all power both in heaven and in earth. Believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend. And again, believe that ye must repent of your sins and forsake them and humble yourselves before God and ask Him sincerely of heart that He will forgive you. And now, if you believe all these things, see that you do them. And again I say unto you, as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if ye have known of His goodness and have tasted of His love and have received the remission of your sins, which causes such exceeding great joy in your souls, even so I would that ye should remember and always retain in remembrance the greatness of God and your own nothingness, and His goodness and long suffering towards you unworthy creatures, and humble yourselves even in the depths of humility, calling on the name of the Lord daily, and standing steadfastly in the faith of that which is to come which was spoken by the mouth of the angel."
Prabhupada: So it is very nice. But.... Let me see that book.
Hari-sauri: There was one section there that mentions about chanting the name.
Devotee (4): "Calling on the name of the Lord daily."
Hari-sauri: This is very close to what we teach, Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: Where it is? Eleven?
Guest (4): Eleven, at the bottom.
Prabhupada: "And again I say unto you, as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God, or if you have known of His goodness and have tasted of His love and have received a remission of your sins, which causes such exceeding great joy in your souls, even so, I would that ye should remember..." No, the things are very nice. That soul is admitted. "Your soul"—soul is admitted. That sinful activities are admitted. Goodness of God is admitted. So there is no difference between this gospel and other religious book. This is the principle. The point is what are the sins? Unless you know what are the sins, how you can avoid sins?
Guest (2): You can't. You have to know.
Prabhupada: So what are the sins? That is the point.
Guest (2): Well, when you disobey His orders, and He's got many commandments, and they are in the book.
Prabhupada: So therefore I was raising that question, that anyone who is not obeying the Ten Commandments of the Christian religion, then how he's a Christian?
Guest (2): How is he a Christian?
Prabhupada: Yes, if he does not obey.
Guest (2): If he does not obey them he is breaking the orders of God.
Prabhupada: So then these question do not arise at all, because he does not know what are sins and what are to be avoided and how to love God. These things required. There is a process. Just like if you want to love a girl or a girl wants to love you, there is a process. Unless there is no love. If you do not follow the process.... Suppose.... These are the general principles. If you love somebody you give something, some presentation. That you have given me, the presentation. It is a question of love. You are not giving to anyone, but you have got some love. So you give something to God. The first question of love is that "What you are giving to God?"
Guest (2): What am I giving to God?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (2): Well, I want to give everything...
Prabhupada: No, no. You want to, but practically what you are giving?
Guest (2): What am I giving now?
Prabhupada: Yes. I mean to say, anyone. Here.... Here is a process. Just like in our temple they have dedicated everything to God, the life.
Guest (2): Well, we likewise went through a temple, a sacred place, and in there we have made covenants to give everything.
Prabhupada: So love of God means six things. This is the difference between other literature and Vedic literature. Here it is said, "love of God," but in the Vedic literature you will find the process of love,
Nine different processes. First of all you should hear about the glories of God, sravanam. Then you should preach the glories of God. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh. You should always remember God, smaranam. Pada-sevanam: you should worship the Lord by worshiping, giving service to His lotus feet. But if God is imperson, where is feet? And if God is no form, then how you can remember Him?
Guest (2): We believe God has form.
Prabhupada: Yes. But, then next question will be "What is the form?"
Guest (2): We believe in a man, form of a man, flesh and bone, glorified and perfected.
Prabhupada: So you believe that man is God?
Guest (2): Not man is God.
Prabhupada: Then? God is like man. You mean to say the form of God is like man?
Guru-krpa: No, flesh and bone.
Guest (2): Flesh and bone, glorified and perfected.
Guru-krpa: Matter. God has a material body.
Guest (2): Of glory and perfection.
Prabhupada: No, no, how do you glorify the flesh and bone? It is very hard? It is very nice to eat? Is that glorification?
Guest (2): It's not difficult, I don't.... My feeling.... God...
Prabhupada: You don't bring your feeling. I mean to say, you must bring scriptural order. How do you glorify flesh and bone?
Guest (2): Well, Christ brought that about in the resurrection, when he was resurrected.
Prabhupada: How do you say? Practically say that how you glorify a lump of flesh and piece of bone? That is my question. What is the glorification of a lump of flesh and a piece of bone?
Guest (2): God can do it. That's all I can say.
Prabhupada: You cannot do it. Can?
Guest (2): I cannot.
Prabhupada: Then?
Guest (2): But God can.
Prabhupada: Then we do not...
Devotee (4): The question is, "How can we glorify God if He's made of flesh and bone?"
Guest (2): How can we glorify God?
Guest (4): There's a little bit of communication gap here. You don't quite understand our thoughts, and we...
Guru-krpa: We understand. He just asked you.
Guest (2): And we don't quite understand yours.
Guru-krpa: He asked you, how do you worship a piece of flesh and piece of bone?
Guest (2): It's a piece of glorified flesh and a piece of glorified bone.
Guru-krpa: How is flesh glorified?
Guest (2): It's perfect.
Guru-krpa: Flesh means material, temporary, imperfect.
Guest (2): I'm not perfect. This is not temporary.
Prabhupada: So you bring some flesh from slaughterhouse and glorify it.
Guest (2): Could I ask a question? I was told, if I'm not right, that down there in a section of your temple you worship the workmanship of flesh. A man made it.
Prabhupada: We never do that. Who told you? Who is the rascal?
Guest (2): Well, it was one of your followers.
Guru-krpa: He's interpreting that to be the Deity.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Guru-krpa: That is his interpretation of the Deity.
Prabhupada: Of Deity?
Guru-krpa: That is his interpretation of what is the Deity, that it is man-made, matter.
Guest (2): Is it?
Prabhupada: You do think that, that the form of God is man-made?
Guest (2): Well, all I can.... I just.... That's my feeling.
Prabhupada: That may be your feeling, but that does not mean that is our feeling.
Guest (2): Well, okay. Your feeling does not mean that our feeling is wrong.
Prabhupada: No, no, we don't say. I am simply asking that how do you glorify flesh and bone? I do not know. I am asking you.
Guest (2): I don't know. God knows, is what I'm saying.
Prabhupada: How is that? You do not know your system of glorification?
Guest (2): Well, glorification comes...
Prabhupada: I am asking—I am a layman—that you say "glorified flesh and bone," but you say, "I don't know."
Guest (4): Can I ask a question?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (4): Do you consider.... Is it your Deity? Do you consider that glorified?
Prabhupada: No, the Deity is the form of the Lord, but when you say, "the bone and flesh," so how we can accept as Deity?
Guest (4): Now, you say that the Deity is the form of God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (4): Now you've also...
Prabhupada: Also here is. Here is the Deity.
Guest (2): No, that's an angel called Moronai.
Prabhupada: "Angel," but you cannot dishonor him.
Guest (2): It's in honor of him.
Prabhupada: You honor him.
Guest (2): No.
Prabhupada: Then why you put this?
Guest (4): It's just a picture.
Prabhupada: Oh, you don't honor him.
Guest (4): Don't honor him.
Prabhupada: Then what is the use of picture? (laughter)
Guest (4): Could I ask you another question? Could I ask you another question? You've been hitting on some of the Ten Commandments tonight like "Thou shall not kill." Now, if you believe the Ten Commandments like that, it also says in there that you shouldn't worship idols, bow down to idols.
Prabhupada: Yes, we don't worship idol. We worship God.
Guest (2): Well, we just have a.... We don't need to discuss.
Prabhupada: Just like here is the picture of God. As you say, this picture is not important, but we say it is important because it is picture of God. Because it is important, therefore you have given the picture.
Guest (3): Well, we say that that picture is important because it's in commemoration or something of...
Prabhupada: Anyway, you offer some honor. Otherwise why do you give this picture?
Guest (2): Honor, not worship.
Guru-krpa: They put this on the top of their temples.
Guest (2): On one, two of them.
Guru-krpa: I have seen in Salt Lake City.
Guest (2): Salt Lake City and...
Prabhupada: No, no, anywhere, top of.... Here you are giving a particular picture. That means...
Guru-krpa: Gold and silver.
Guest (2): That's right.
Prabhupada: Stop. That means you have got respect.
Guest (2): We have respect. We do not worship.
Prabhupada: That means that respect is partial. Our process is whomever we respect, we worship him. That is more perfect.
Guest (2): Well, all right. That's fine.
Prabhupada: That is perfection. If you respect somebody you must worship him. Just like.... Nowadays it has become a fashion. I don't.... That is European fashion, that you respect some gentleman, political or social, who has done good service to your country, but you keep him in a public park and the crows are passing stool on his head.
Hari-sauri: Make a statue.
Prabhupada: Statue.
Hari-sauri: If you want to glorify some great personality.
Prabhupada: But we, if we keep that statue in a temple, is it not more respectful?
Guest (3): Yes.
Prabhupada: If I expose the statue on the open field and the crows and birds are passing stool on his head and it is going down his mouth, is it respectful? Do you think it is respectful?
Guest (2): Probably not.
Prabhupada: So if that statue is kept in a temple and you dress, you garland, you offer food, is it not more respectful?
Guest (2): Offer food to an idol?
Hari-sauri: It's not an idol. This is a point Prabhupada is making.
Prabhupada: The point is how to offer respect, that if you respect a person, so if you expose this form of the person on the public park, giving the crows chance to pass stool on his head, that is more respectful? Or if you keep that statue in a temple and daily dress him and garland him and offer him food, that is more respectful? Which is more respectful? You are doing the same thing, but you are exposing to the stool of birds and crows.
Guest (2): No, see, you have a misunderstanding of the representation...
Prabhupada: No misunderstanding. It is a common sense that if you have got respect for a person, instead of installing his form—either it is statue or stone, it doesn't matter—keeping it outside and giving chance the bird to pass stool on his head, if you keep that statue in a nice place, which is more respectful? That is my question. It is a common sense. If you have got respect for a person.... You have installed the statue. Don't call Deity. Statue. So which is more respectful, to keep him exposed on the open field or to keep him in a temple?
Guest (2): Well, I think if I was looking at it in your point of view, it would be more respectful to put him inside.
Prabhupada: That's the.... That is the point.
Guest (4): That's your point of view, not ours.
Prabhupada: Then? That is your.... I do not know what is your point of view, that you expose this to the open air and the birds pass stool on it and you still...
Guest (2): It is simply a workmanship of man to make the building maybe more...
Prabhupada: I am just talking on the practical point of view. Which is more respectful? Apart from other points, if we actually offer somebody respect, then you must give him proper respect.
Guest (2): But, see, we do not see Moronai in that.... Moronai does not reside...
Prabhupada: You do not see that the crows passing stool? You do not see it?
Guest (2): He might. He might do something on it. But he's not doing it on Moronai.
Prabhupada: Suppose your father's statue is there, and crow passing on the nose stool. You don't feel that "My father's statue is..."
Guest (2): Well, I don't think that it was done on Moronai because Moronai is not in that statue.
Prabhupada: No, no, Moronai, anyone. I am not.... But there are so many statues, so many statues in the open field, and they are exposed to the birds for passing stool. Do you think it is more respectful than one keeping the same statue in a nice sacred temple and worshiping?
Guest (2): Yes, it's nice. They should.
Prabhupada: So you criticize the person who is keeping the statue within a temple, "the heathen worship, idol worship," and you keep your father's statue exposed for passing stool on his head.
Guest (4): You know, if you're going to liken it unto that, I can also liken it unto your statues down here in your temple...
Prabhupada: No, take it as statue, but where is good sense, to keep a statue within a temple or to keep it open field for passing stool by the birds?
Guest (4): Okay, here is some of my good sense. You've got your statues in your temple, and I notice there were a lot of flies in there the other night crawling all over it and doing their, whatever they do.
Prabhupada: So do you mean a fly coming and crow passing stool is the same thing? Very good sense.
Guest (3): Well, flies leave mess.
Pusta Krsna: Actually, it was painful to see the flies.
Devotee (4): That's why they have the whisk you see. We try to whisk the flies away.
Pusta Krsna: You can try as much as possible...
Prabhupada: It is very good reason that, "Because the flies cannot be checked, and the crows should be allowed to pass stool?" At least you stop the crows. If you cannot stop the flies, but you can stop the crows. We have done that. We don't allow the crows to come.
Guest (2): That's good. That's very good. We have taken a lot of your time, Your Grace, and we are very honored and thank you very much.
Prabhupada: No, we are talking frankly. That's nice. Our point is that.... That is our philosophy, that if we want to be God conscious, we must abide by His order, just like here it is very nicely written. I very much appreciate this thing. But we must practically do that. And what is that? "Again I say unto you as I have said before, that as ye have come to the knowledge of the glory of God." Now, it is conditional. "You have come to the knowledge of the glory of..." Now, what is that knowledge, glory of God?
Guest (2): Well, that is to know that He lives and that He loves you, and that one day you can live with Him again.
Prabhupada: That's nice. Very good.
Guest (2): And when you have that knowledge, I think that is...
Prabhupada: That is more explicitly explained, as I was explaining, that you feel the presence of God every time, as in the Bhagavad-gita is said that when you are drinking water you immediately glorify God, "Oh, God has created this water so tasteful. It is quenching my thirst."
Guest (2): Exactly.
Prabhupada: How it is easy?
Guest (2): Could I read you something out of that?
Prabhupada: No, no, I can understand. The things are all right. Things are all right.
Guest (2): It's on the other side of the page and it talks about that.
Prabhupada: But I am giving you the process. You have written, "the glory of God," and I am giving you the process how to glorify God.
Guest (2): Oh, thank you.
Prabhupada: Yes. Here is the process. You are drinking water, and "Oh, how Krsna, God, is so glorified. I was so much thirsty, and just drinking this water, this is quenching my thirst." This is glorification.
Guest (2): I like that. That's good. I like that.
Prabhupada: So that is the difference. Our Krsna consciousness movement means know how to glorify God, not theoretical-practical. Here is practically example. Everyone drinks water, and while drinking water he can glorify thousand times. That we are teaching. Prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. As soon as you see sunlight, "Oh, we are suffering for want of sunlight. Here is God's glory. He has sent the sunlight." This is practical. So one must know how to glorify God practically. Then his life is successful. God is always glorious. There is no doubt about it. But for us, how to glorify God.... Similarly, when we worship the Deity, here is God. Just offer Him flower. Just offer Him dress. That is love.
Guest (2): Yeah.
Prabhupada: Every item, there is practical.
Guest (2): We think that also to glorify God is to obey His...
Prabhupada: You think but you see also practically that how these people are practically doing.
Guest (2): Excuse my manner of speech. I've come to know that to glorify God and that is to obey His will and do His will.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the.... So that is the order in our Bhagavad-gita. The first order is man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. So "Always think of Me." And He is giving the process how to think of Him. Not that He simply leaves you that "Think of Me," but He is giving practical way. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. "Now, when you drink water you can think of Me. When you see the sunshine you can think of Me. When you see the moonshine you can.... When there is sound you can think of Me." In this way there is list. If you time, I can explain that list. Have you got time? Bring me that...
Guest (2): Well, have you got...
Prabhupada: All right. So practical, that how to think of God, how to glorify Him, that there must be some practical life. That we are teaching, because everything is glorification of God. We cannot manufacture the sunshine. Therefore sunshine, it is glorification of God. We cannot manufacture the moonshine; therefore moonshine is glorification of God. So in this way you have to practically learn how to glorify God. Then life will be very nice. That we are teaching. That is Krsna consciousness. So you should.... So if you like, you can take this book also.
Guest (2): Could we have an autograph of that?
Hari-sauri: Oh, yes. They want you to sign it, Srila Prabhupada.
Guest (2): How much does one of these cost?
Guest (3): Could we have two?
Devotee (4): Sure.
Pusta Krsna: I met one Christian in Florida. He once said that by hearing our philosophy he felt he became a life member.
Prabhupada: What is the date? Twenty-third?
Hari-sauri: Twenty-third.
Guest (2): It's a good philosophy. I am really respect the Krsna's for their discipline, because this is a great thing that people of the world need to learn, is to discipline your body, because we think that if you discipline your body, the spirit of God can dwell with you more.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (2): We were going to get one more book, buy it, and have you sign another one. Would that be all right?
Hari-sauri: They're just bringing one more copy. They want one each. No, they want one copy each of Isopanisad. So he's just waiting. He would like you to sign that one also, if you could.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Pusta Krsna: Why don't you read one of these? I think you'd be interested in some of the finer points in the philosophy.
Guest (2): How much would that be? We can't afford too...
Pusta Krsna: It only costs four dollars.
Guest (2): We can't afford that. Something small.... Does it have a picture of him in there?
Hari-sauri: There's a picture of Prabhupada in the back of that one, in the back. On the inside also there's just a few notes about him.
Prabhupada: Paper is ripped. Another copy. (end)

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