750509rc.per
Room Conversation
with Carol Cameron

May 9, 1975, Perth
Amogha: Srila Prabhupada, this is Carol Cameron from the University of West Australia. She has a degree in Social Work, in Arts, and she's working on a Master's Degree in Anthropology. In this degree her paper is on the subject of the influence of Hindu and Buddhist mysticism on the West. So she would like to ask you some questions. This is our spiritual master, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
Carol: I would like to know why in the beginning why you came to the West. I know a bit about your background, but not very much. Why you saw the need to come.
Prabhupada: That I was speaking. Of course, it is very strong words. That Western people they are claiming very civilized, but I have got objection. Therefore I have come to the West. Because, for example, the animal-killing. The Western people are mostly Christians. Now, Lord Jesus Christ said that "Thou shall not kill." But the result was that two thousand years passed, but the people of the Western countries, they are still killing. So when they have accepted Christianity? What is your answer?
Carol: But the actual original scriptures aren't enacted in Western life.
Prabhupada: I mean to say that Lord Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." So, what kind of men were there that Lord Christ had to request them not to kill? That means they were killers. Suppose if somebody's thief, and if I give him some good instruction, I say "You should not commit theft." That means you are thief. You are already. Otherwise why I say that "Thou shall not commit theft"? A naughty child is disturbing. I say, "My dear child, don't do this." Similarly, when Christ said, "Thou shall not kill," that means he said amongst people who were in the habit of killing. Is it not?
Carol: Hmm.
Prabhupada: Now, after taking instruction from Christ, first of all they killed Christ. That means they could not understand the instruction. Therefore their first business was to kill the instructor. And after that, two thousand years passed, still they are killing. So when they have accepted the teachings of Lord Christ? Can you answer this?
Carol: So you think the Christian faith hasn't been reflected in the behavior of Western people.
Prabhupada: This is practical. You are maintaining huge slaughterhouses, regular killing. So, you took instruction from Christ, "Thou shall not kill." You first of all killed him, and then the killing process is going on among the animals, and declaring wars every now and then. So the killing business is going on regularly. In your regular life also. You are maintaining big, big slaughterhouses. Then when you accepted the instruction of Christ? That I want to know. What is that date?
Carol: Do you see any hope for the world? We seem to be moving towards destruction.
Prabhupada: No, my... You just explain.
Amogha: He's asking you when did this civilization actually accept the teachings of Christ?
Carol: When have they? Not overall at all, only in small pockets. Never overall.
Prabhupada: Then why you are claiming that you are Christian? Just like you are having cross. That is the sign that you killed Christ. The cross is the killing symbol of Christ.
Carol: This is the resurrection symbol.
Prabhupada: Maybe. (laughter)
Carol: But it's not only Christian symbol...
Prabhupada: But many, many priestly order, they carry the cross. Cross is the sign when Lord Jesus Christ was killed. Is it not?
Carol: It is, but that symbol is used in a lot of ways.
Prabhupada: That means how you killed Lord Jesus Christ. That is the sign. That reminds you that you killed. You accuse the Jewish people "They killed," but you are also killing. Although you are claiming Christian. Therefore I want to know—you are a learned scholar—when you abided by the order of Lord Jesus Christ? That is my question. When?
Amogha: When did you abide by the orders of Jesus Christ?
Carol: When did I?
Prabhupada: Every one of you, Western countries. And if you have abided by the order of Jesus Christ, then why you are systematically killing? The order is, "Thou shall not kill."
Carol: It reminds me of the Gita, you know? Where Arjuna is on the battlefield about to commit an organized sort of killing against his relatives.
Prabhupada: No, two thousand years passed, but you could not accept the instruction of Lord Jesus Christ. And you are all claiming that you are Christian. When did you accept Christianity? That is my question. Because you have disobeyed the order of Christ. So when did you accept? Two thousand years passed. Hmm? Who will answer this question?
Jayadharma: Never.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Jayadharma: They never accepted.
Carol: Hmm. What is the main part of your philosophy? Is it based on the Vedanta school?
Prabhupada: No. This is no question of philosophy. You could not accept the simple instruction. Then where is the question of philosophy?
Carol: The question of love.
Prabhupada: Yes. You cannot understand the principles of life and morality, Jesus Christ's instruction that "Thou shall not kill." So how you become philosopher?
Carol: How is the love to be understood? Between people or through inner sort of communication with a higher self?
Ganesa: Srila Prabhupada said that you could not understand the simple instruction, so where is the question of understanding philosophy? Not love. Philosophy.
Prabhupada: You have no love, because you are accustomed to kill. Philosophy begins when you know that everyone is part and parcel of God, and everyone should be given the full facilities to live without injuring anyone for one's personal benefit. Panditah sama-darsinah [Bg. 5.18]. A pandita, philosopher, means learned scholar. Not fools and rascals can become philosopher. Those who are learned scholar, thoughtful, they can become philosopher. But if one has no knowledge how to behave with other living entities, what is the meaning of becoming a philosopher?
Carol: How would you go about teaching this idea of love?
Prabhupada: Love means that I want to eat something, and if I love somebody, then I will see that my beloved also eats. If you take something from your beloved, naturally the lovers present things. Just a boy loves a girl. He presents something to the girl. So, if you accept presentation by others, we should give him also something. And, if I have got some confidential thing, I must disclose it to the lover, and the lover is also expected, he should not keep anything confidential. He should disclose it. These are the six reciprocal exchanges between the lover and the beloved. If I love you, because you are beautiful, for my sense gratification, but I keep everything secret, that is not love. That is sense gratification. Lust. These are the signs of love.
Priti means love. These are the symptoms. Give and take, eat and give to eat, open you mind, and know the other party's mind also. This is love. The more you increase the six kinds of exchange, there is increase in the love.
Carol: Do you think a man who says he loves God should withdraw from the world, say into a community or something like that?
Prabhupada: First of all between two. Then you can expand it. First the love between-love means there are two, the lover and the beloved. So, the transaction begins between the two, then it expands.
Carol: How do you go if you look at the two as say the creator and the person? Would that be the two that you have in mind? How would you go about fostering that relationship?
Amogha: She says if you mean by the two the creator and us, how would you go about fostering or increasing that relationship between us and...
Prabhupada: Creator, created. Do you believe in creator?
Carol: Impersonal creator, yes.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Amogha: She says impersonal creator.
Prabhupada: Impersonal?
Amogha: Yes.
Prabhupada: Oh, what is that philosophy? Impersonal creator?
Carol: Without any attributes that we can...
Prabhupada: Creator is an attribute. To become creator, that is attribute. If I create this bell, I know the art of how to create a bell.
Carol: Hmm.
Prabhupada: So, this is my attribute. How you can say the creator is without attribute? This is false philosophy. I know how to create this bell. That is my artistic sense. That is my qualification. And how you say I am without qualification? As soon as you say "creator," then He has got many qualifications.
Carol: How can ignorance be removed?
Prabhupada: The ignorant people can also learn from the learned. If you have got this idea that creator is impersonal, that means you are not a learned. You have no knowledge. And this is the simple answer. As soon as you say "creator," He has so many qualities. The bell... Suppose I am ringing. Now, when the spring is loose, it does not sound. So, others may not know, but one who has created—"Oh, the spring is loose. Now we wind it again." That means I know, ins and outs and everything. That is creator. So, if one is cognizant of everything, how He can be impersonal? What is this philosophy? Hmm? Answer. You are philosopher.
Amogha: He says if the creator, if one is cognizant of everything, then how can He not be a person? The creator is cognizant of everything. So if He is cognizant, how can He not be a person?
Carol: Well, He would incorporate personal attributes...
Prabhupada: Hmm? She says "He."
Carol: ...not be governed by them.
Prabhupada: She says "He," but He is impersonal. (laughter)
Carol: Yes. (laughs) It's the intellect and the emotion.
Prabhupada: How vague ideas. And they are passing on philosophy. "He" contradicts. You say "He." And again He is impersonal.
Carol: At the emotional level it's a very personal...
Prabhupada: Why should you emotional? You are a philosopher. You should talk very nicely.
Carol: Talk?
Amogha: He said, why be emotional? You are a philosopher, so talk very nicely.
Carol: Oh. (surprised) I don't philosophize.
Amogha: What she just said was that He is impersonal, but He incorporates personal features?
Carol: If God is in everything, then the personal attributes must be part of Him, it, whatever.
Amogha: She says personal attributes are part of God.
Carol: But God is not just limited to...
Prabhupada: You have no idea of God.
Carol: No. I don't think...
Prabhupada: He must be person. As soon as you say "He knows everything," "He creates," and so many other things, then these are all personal. You say "He." "He." These are all personal.
Carol: This in only our idea of God though, not necessarily...
Prabhupada: That means you have no clear idea of God. You have vague idea. So you have to learn what is God.
Carol: You think you can know the nature of God?
Amogha: She says do you think you can know the nature of God?
Prabhupada: Yes. You can know also.
Carol: In an intellectual way?
Prabhupada: You can know also.
Carol: You might know something in your heart but not be able to express it.
Prabhupada: Why not express it? You can express it. If whatever is within your heart, if you cannot express, then you are not perfect. You must express what is within your heart very clearly. Not that I have got something within my heart and I cannot express. That means my knowledge is imperfect.
Carol: So often our understanding moves sort of separately the emotional, the heart.
Prabhupada: Emotion is not required for scientific knowledge. Emotion is not. Useless. It must be factual. Emotion is no use. Emotion is useful in high, ecstatic love. Not for scientific study of something you require emotion. No.
Carol: In the bhakti way of doing things, this emotion and love are very closely entwined, aren't they?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is higher stage. Not in the beginning. In the beginning devotion means I should be devoted to you. Why should I be devoted to you unless you are worthy? Just like Krsna says, "You surrender unto Me." So unless I understand that Krsna is worth for my surrendering, He is worthy, why shall I surrender to Krsna? If I demand, immediately you have come, that you surrender. Would you like to do that?
Carol: To surrender?
Prabhupada: If I ask you that you surrender. I am meeting you for the first time. Would you like to surrender?
Carol: Yes.
Prabhupada: I don't think. (laughter)
Carol: To want to and to do it is different.
Prabhupada: No, unless you are fully aware of my abilities, qualities, why should you surrender? (indistinct) So, before surrendering, one has to study the person where he is going to surrender. Then he surrenders. That is real surrender. And blindly surrender, that will not stay. So, our first business is to surrender to God; therefore we must know what is God. Then you must surrender. And, the emotion is good. That means you are advanced. If you understand that God is giving us everything. So, that emotion is very good. If one from the very beginning becomes emotional, "Oh, God is so kind. God is so great, that He is giving us everything, our necessities. I must serve Him." This emotion is very good. But for ordinary man, this emotion does not come. He wants to study what is God. Then when he fully understands, "Oh, God is so great." Then that emotion is very nice. That is genuine emotion. Otherwise emotion is sentiment. That will not stay. That will not endure. It is temporary.
Carol: Would the intellect be helpful in knowing God?
Prabhupada: Yes. Unless you have got the necessary intellect, then you are no better than the animals. The animals have no intellect to understand God, but the human being has got that intellect. That is the distinction between animal and human being. [break] Sleeping, the human being also sleeps; they also sleep. Then sex enjoyment: the human being also enjoy, and the animals also enjoy. And protection from fear or becoming fearful—the human being is also fearful and arranges for protection, and the animal also does. So far the primary necessities of life, that is equal in animal and human being. But the human being has a special intellect developed than the animals that he can understand what he is, what is God, what is this cosmic manifestation, and what is the aim of life, how we should conduct. These things are prerogatives for the human being. The animals have no such prerogative. So if we do not utilize these special intellectual activities, then we remain animal. We do not make any development. So at the present moment they are improving the method of primary necessities of life—eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They are thinking the dog is eating on the floor; if we can eat on table, chair and nice dish, that is advancement of civilization. They are thinking like that. The dog is sleeping on the floor, and if we sleep in very nice apartment, very decorated, that is advancement of civilization. The dog is having sexual intercourse on the street without any shame, and we are also coming to that point already. And if we have sex intercourse in the name of love and so on, so on, that is advancement. And dog is defending with his jaws and nails and teeth, you are defending with atomic bomb, therefore we are advanced. But they have forgotten that the human being has got this special intellect to understand God. That they are not doing. Just like you are going to be a doctor in anthropology. Is it not?
Carol: Yes.
Prabhupada: Where is the sense of God there?
Carol: I only do it for a living. The other side of me is something...
Prabhupada: No. I mean to say the anthropology it is a big scientific department. Where is the understanding of God there?
Carol: I find it difficult to reconcile the love of God with actually doing something like this.
Prabhupada: Then how you are going to speculate on anthropology?
Carol: Hmm.
Prabhupada: If you cannot adjust, how you are wasting your time in the science, anthropology? It is a false science.
Carol: I'm waiting to be led into something which is good.
Prabhupada: There is no meaning.
Carol: Yes. You can only decide in...
Prabhupada: The whole theory, Darwin's theory, is a false theory. It has no sound background. He says it is theory. Theory is not science. I can propose some theory, "It is like that." But that is not science. Science means observation and experiment. That is science. You observe how the rules are working, and when you practically bring them into experiment, then it is science. If you simply theorize, that is not science. Mental speculation. It has no benefit. You can speculate, constructing a castle in the air. That is not a very good thing. You should present something which will benefit the people, and practical. That is science.
Carol: Do you think it is possible to live in say an education framework, or should it be something quite separate?
Prabhupada: Education, if it is not for the benefit of the people, then what is the use of such education? That is not a good education. Education means something which will benefit the mass of people. That is education. To enlighten them to do something better. That is education. And this whole Darwin's theory is false. But people are giving too much stress. First of all, anyone, even Darwin, he's not independent. Just like Darwin has died. So, he is under the control of something higher. Nobody wants to die, but he is forced to die. Is it not? Then where is his independence?
Carol: That is the illusion.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Amogha: She says that is the illusion of independence.
Prabhupada:? Yes, so if you simply in illusion you live, then where is your education? If you remain in darkness, then where is your education? Illusion means darkness. So if you are in darkness, now what is your education? And where is your philosophy?
Carol: The only way to remove this darkness is through love. Is this what you are saying?
Prabhupada: Love is far away. First of all you be educated.
Carol: How? In what way?
Prabhupada: Education means right knowledge. Right knowledge. Just like, everyone wants to live. Nobody wants to die. So, the enquiry should be that "I do not wish to die. Why death is forced upon me?" What is that force? What is the nature of that force? If I submit, "Yes, the force is there," then where is my knowledge? I do not wish to die. So why death is forced upon me? Nobody wants miserable condition of life, but miserable condition of life is enforced upon me. So this should be first of all enquired, that I do not want these things, and who is enforcing upon me these things? This is the first enquiry, philosophical.
Carol: I tend to approach from the other side and ask "Who am I?" and "What is this thing that I call myself?"
Prabhupada: It is everyone's problem. I don't want something, but something is enforced upon me. Just like you are now a young girl. You do not like to be old woman. But you will have to become old woman.
Carol: Become?
Amogha: Old woman.
Carol: Oh, yes. Hmm.
Prabhupada: Nature will force you that after forty years of age you must become old, and you must not remain so beautiful. This is forced. But no one wants that. No woman wants that "I shall look not beautiful and my flesh should be flabby and no more luster. I don't want all these things." Why it is forced?
Carol: Suffering and pain leads people to God, doesn't it?
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Amogha: She says doesn't the suffering and pain lead people towards God?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the law, but we are so dull-headed that we do not enquire. That is my statement, that you should enquire "Who is forcing these things?" Then there is enquiry of God. First of all we must be... Just like a dog. He cannot understand. He's under chain. He's leading a life most dependent. And he is jolly. He is jumping here and there. That is dog's life. If the master kills him, he cannot do anything. But he is very jolly. He is jumping. That is dog's life. But not human life. Human life is that I am dependent in every step, still I am declaring independent. What is this nonsense? This enquiry should be there. He is dependent in every step, exactly like the cats and dogs, but he is claiming, "I am independent."
Carol: Is it possible to carry out that enquiry while you're engaged in activities?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the real enquiry. Wherefrom my life has begun? What is the ultimate goal of my life? Why I am put into these conditions which I do not like? Who is enforcing? These things should be asked. That is the proper enquiry of the human being. And we cannot solve the question of birth, death, old age and disease, and you are theorizing something utopian. What is the use of such advancement of knowledge? I live for fifty years and sixty years, and the Darwin's theory they are calculating gap of millions of years. There is a gap of millions of years, and we will live for fifty years. How we are taking calculation of millions of years? Speculation simply. And misleading people. An honest man should not mislead others. He should understand that his knowledge is limited. How can I say something theorizing? That is not very good business. And misleading people. I have no perfect knowledge. I am theorizing. What is the use? I have no actually accurate knowledge, and I am theorizing. I am misleading people. Big bluff. That is going on. An honest man should not take part in big bluffs. First of all you must have accurate knowledge, and I am theorizing. I am misleading people. Big bluffs. First of all you must have accurate knowledge. Then you bring knowledge to others. That is our proposition. First of all make your life perfect, then you try to give knowledge. If you have no knowledge, vague knowledge, not definite knowledge, then why should you try to give knowledge to others?
Carol: Can you have perfect knowledge?
Prabhupada: What?
Carol: Can you have perfect knowledge,...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Carol: I mean ultimately you might say that I might be able to have some, but it's still a bit doubtful. In the near future how could you ever...
Prabhupada: Perfect knowledge you can immediately, provided you take knowledge from the perfect. If you receive knowledge from a bogus person, then how you can have perfect knowledge? Knowledge has to be received from a person. Why shall I go to a school, college, teachers, guru? To receive knowledge. So if your teacher, guru or parent, those who are your superior, if they are perfect, then you get perfect knowledge. But if your teacher is a bogus, then you get bogus knowledge.
Carol: And this is immediate, is it?
Amogha: She says is this immediate, the reception of perfect knowledge?
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like we are giving knowledge from Bhagavad-gita. This is perfect knowledge. You take it; you become perfect.
Carol: And your actions are perfect actions?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Amogha: And your actions are perfect actions?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita you'll find—you have read Bhagavad-gita? No.
Carol: Mmm.
Prabhupada: It is said, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. Think of God. So we are doing this. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna—we are thinking of Krsna. THe direction is there, and we are doing that. Therefore my action is perfect. If the physician says that you take this medicine in such and such dose, you don't do this, and do this. If I follow, then I'm cured, perfect.
Carol: Does a man then stop judging his actions?
Prabhupada: No, if I know that the knowledge which I am receiving from the person is perfect, then there is no question of judging. You simply follow.
Carol: So it's a matter of complete faith.
Prabhupada: Just like a child. Child assumes that my father is perfect. So, actually a father should be perfect at least for the child. So whatever the father, mother, gives him knowledge, that is perfect. Father says, "My dear child, this is called 'table.' " The child does not know what is table, but he understand from his father. He says, "This is table." So when the child says it is table, it is fact. This is perfect. He may be imperfect, his child, but because he is repeating the perfect knowledge of his father, whatever he is speaking is perfect. Because he has received the knowledge. Actually the child inquires from the father, "Father, what is this?" Father smiles at child, "This is called bell. If you push your hand in this." Then you get the perfect knowledge. He tries it. Oh, it is coming. The knowledge is there. He may be imperfect, but the instruction he has received, that is perfect. Similarly, if you get instruction from the perfect, then your knowledge is perfect, and if you receive knowledge—just like anthropology—from an imperfect person, Darwin, then whole thing is imperfect. So why should we waste our time in imperfect knowledge?
Carol: Because there are few people around us who think they are perfect.
Prabhupada: That is another thing, that people want to be cheated, so I shall be perfect cheater. (laughter) That is another thing. And take my doctorate title, being a perfect cheater.
Carol: If you look for those who are perfect, you don't find any.
Amogha: She says there are so few perfect people, if you look for a perfect person, you don't find any.
Prabhupada: Therefore we are giving-here is Krsna. Here is the perfect person. You take. But you don't follow Him. Just like I began with. Jesus Christ is perfect, but you don't follow him.
Carol: Mmm.
Prabhupada: You don't like to follow him. You follow Darwin. Whose fault it is? The perfect person's fault, or your fault? You don't like to hear from the perfect person. You want to hear from a humbug bogus person. That is the defect. (long silence)
Carol: Thank you. Thank you.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Ganesa: All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Give him some prasada.
Amogha: He's bringing something for you.
Carol: We have your record, the Radha-Krsna Temple album. It's beautiful. We sing the chants every night now. They're rather lovely.
Amogha: She says she has the Radha-Krsna Temple album, and every night they sing the chants. At home. They have the record from London.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Carol: They're pretty hard to get hold of. I wish there were more around.
Prabhupada: Yes, that will benefit. That will benefit.
Amogha: They are available by mail from America.
Carol: I think a lot of people don't know it exists, that's the problem.
Prabhupada: That record which was done by George Harrison?
Carol: Yes. It's very rare to find music like that here.
Prabhupada: George Harrison has contributed many. He gave me first of all nineteen thousand dollars for printing Krsna book. Now he has purchased one house in London, and we are using that. It is two hundred thousand pounds. Yes, he is a good boy, good soul.
Carol: You don't have a group in Perth, do you?
Prabhupada: He is also chanting Hare Krsna. Yes. He chants all day Hare Krsna. He has made some record, "Krsna."
Amogha: "My dear Lord, I really want to see You." Something like that.
Prabhupada: Like that, yes. "Krsna" he has said.
Srutakirti: Yes. His latest album, "Krsna Where Are You?"
Amogha: Oh, I haven't seen it.
Prabhupada: And in the record album he has given this picture. So you are intelligent girl, you study about this Krsna consciousness. That will benefit you. The anthropology you may get some degree, adoration. What is the benefit? Jaya. (Carol leaves) They enquire why I have come to the West. If I enquire that two thousand year ago you have been taught that "Thou shall not kill," and your business is only to kill. I have come to enquire from you, "What is your answer?" How you have become civilized, that you cannot accept one instruction of Jesus Christ. And you are declaring yourself as Christian and civilized. This is my question. Answer it. In two thousand years, first of all you began killing Christ. Never mind, still, two thousand years past, you could not stop killing? You could not accept the first instruction. What kind of civilized man?
Jayadharma: Sometimes they say, Prabhupada, that Jesus meant just...
Prabhupada: Meant?
Jayadharma: ...just human beings.
Prabhupada: All right. That means you are killer of human beings. THat means, in the beginning, you are all killers of human beings. And therefore you killed Jesus Christ. That is not very good qualification. Killer of human being... He said "Thou shall not kill." Where he says that "Thou shall not kill human beings"? That is your interpretation.
Srutakirti: That's obvious he meant only human beings, because he himself was killing animals.
Prabhupada: Christ was killing animals?
Srutakirti: Well, he instructed his own disciples to distribute the fish. So he was also involved in killing of animals.
Prabhupada: Yes, but he said that the fuits and vegetable should be your flesh. What is that?
Srutakirti: Well, that was before Christ. He never said that.
Paramahamsa: He also said that.
Srutakirti: Where does he say that?
Paramahamsa: He said that in the (inaudible). Yes. The Bible says that and Christ also spoke that, that the grasses of the fields and the fruits of the trees shall be your meat.
Prabhupada: Then there is contradiction?
Paramahamsa: Yes. The Christians always say that Christ was eating fish and drinking wine, so what problem have we got? Drinking a little alcohol, eating a little meat?
Prabhupada: Then how did he say that "Thou shall not kill"?
Srutakirti: That was actually the Ten Commandments. That was given by God.
Ganesa: Given to Moses.
Srutakirti: That was given to Moses by God. The Ten Commandments.
Prabhupada: That is not Christ has said?
Srutakirti: Well, Christ enforced it.
Paramahamsa: It was accepted by him as one of the rules.
Srutakirti: Christ's greatest commandment was to love God above all things. So if one is to love God, one must follow His instructions.
Prabhupada: Who is following the instructions?
Srutakirti: We are.
Prabhupada: But supposing Christ distributed fish, but did he say that we shall maintain regular slaughterhouse for killing animals?
Srutakirti: He was against that. He threw the men out of the temple, because they were selling lambs in the temple to be offered at the altar. So he kicked them out, saying this temple is not a place for selling animals for slaughter.
Paramahamsa: But in one place they say Christ encouraged fishermen. Because he came and the fishermen were fishing on one side of the boat, and Christ came along and said, "You are fishing on the wrong side of the boat." He said, "Put your nets on the other side, and you will get more fish." An they did that and they got huge amounts of fish. And so they were encouraged in their fish-eating in this way.
Ganesa: Jesus also said to the fisherman, "Give up you fishing and I will make you fishers of men." He said this to his disciples.
Prabhupada: Then on the whole it comes that his instructions are sometimes contradictory.
Paramahamsa: Not only that but they say that... Usually when it comes right down to it, the Bible has gone through so many interpretations and so many changes in the last two thousand years that...
Prabhupada: Yes. It is very difficult.
Paramahamsa: People..., I've talked to professors who know the original Hebrew and the original tongues that the Bible was written in. They say that is has changed so much that you can hardly...
Prabhupada: Yes, they are changing. Just like he said, "Thou shall not kill." They are now changing, "Thow shall not commit murder." They are doing that.
Paramahamsa: Yes. They have a modern Bible, using all modern terminology.
Prabhupada: So, when you change, then the authority is lost. Just like in our society, sometimes they do something nonsense and they say, "Prabhupada said." (laughter) They are doing that. We know that. It is deteriorated like that. Therefore Krsna said, sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastah kaunteya: "And in due course of time, this yoga was lost. Therefore I am repeating the same thing, old philosophy to you." So it requires like that.
Paramahamsa: One thing about the Christian religion is that through the last two thousand years, Christ's original teachings may have been good teachings, may have been potent preaching, but because there were no potent preachers to carry on the preaching, therefore the whole thing has been lost. But if there are potent preachers to continue reestablishing and establishing the principles,...
Prabhupada: So how you'll find, if everything is now changed? Where you will get the right information?
Paramahamsa: That's the problem. That's why there are so many hundreds of branches of Christianity, literally hundreds. So many divisions of Christianity. Some people accept this, some people accept this.
Prabhupada: Therefore we should advocate that Bhagavad-gita is not like that. It is coming in the same form as it was taught to Arjuna. If you challenge that "How you know that it has not been changed?" the acaryas are there. The acaryas are there, and they are accepting. Therefore it is correct. We have to follow the acaryas. So when we see the acaryas have accepted, then we accept. All the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, before that other acaryas also, they accept. They never say that "This was not in the original scripture. It has been changed." You don't find any such statement of the acaryas. The best thing, therefore, if you want a religious system, Bhagavad-gita is coming without any contradiction, change, for the last five thousand years. You accept it. Other scriptures are (unclear), and there are so many doubts, so many interpretations. So, if you want real religious system, this is the scripture spoken directly by God, and accepted by all the acaryas, so take it. If you are really after God, so you take enlightenment from this perfect scripture. If you want truth, it doesn't matter wherefrom it is coming. I must accept the truth.
Paramahamsa: The Christians openly admit that the Bible has been changed, but they also have a lot of doubt about our scripture.
Prabhupada: No, even they doubt, the Christian religion is now dead. That we see practically. So many churches are not working. Nobody comes there. Nobody comes.
Paramahamsa: As they have seen that their scripture has been changed, they also have a very strong doubt about our scripture. They say "Well, yours in even older than ours," so somewhere along the line they say it must have been changed.
Prabhupada: You say, but those who are the followers of the authorities, they do not say. You are outsider. You say it may be. It may not be, but you have no authority. You are simply taking a hypothesis, "it may be." But those who actually are following, they do not say. What about this? Whose version is more important? Your or theirs? You are outsider. You are simply suggesting because you had a bad experience. But one who has no such experience, why should he follow your advice?
Paramahamsa: Actually if anyone looks at Bhagavad-gita As It Is, presented by yourself, then they can logically see that it is perfect.
Prabhupada: Yes, we have got our argument, logic, everything. Why should we blindly follow?
Ganesa: The results can be seen practically that those who are following the Bhagavad-gita written by you, Srila Prabhupada, are giving up these nonsense activities.
Prabhupada: Letters are posted?
Paramahamsa: No, not yet.
Prabhupada: How they can deliver if you don't post?
Paramahamsa: Well the next time someone goes in. This evening someone can post.
Prabhupada: There is no letter box?
Ganesa: There's not one close. I can post them tonight.
Prabhupada: No, night is useless. Nobody is coming to clear.
Ganesa: Yes, there's one collection at eight o'clock in the night time.
Prabhupada: Oh, then why not post there? It is six.
Ganesa: Srila Prabhupada, if the knowledge was handed down by the saintly kings, evam parampara-praptam [Bg. 4.2], how is it that the knowledge was lost?
Prabhupada: When it was not handed down. Simply understood by speculation. Or if it is not handed down as it is. They might have made some changes. Or they did not hand it down. Suppose I handed it down to you, but if you do not do that, then it is lost. Now the Krsna consciousness movement is going on in my presence. Now after my deparature, if you do not do this, then it is lost. If you go on as you are doing now, then it will go on. But if you stop... (end)

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