May 9, 1975, Perth
Amogha: They think catching fish is great sport, great fun.
Prabhupada: They haven't got any business. They must do all of these sinful activities. That is the defect of the modern civilization—keeping all men in darkness.
Jayadharma: Does that mean that the people that catch the fish have to also become fish?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. And who will become fish? That they do not know, how the transmigration of the soul is going on. They cannot explain wherefrom the fish are coming, wherefrom the trees are coming. Everything in darkness. And this civilization, this dark civilization, is going on, in the name of civilization. They cannot explain what is death, what is next life. Sometimes they say, "It is nature," but how nature is working they do not know. All darkness, mudha na abhijanati, mam ebhyah parama. The birds and beasts are also catching fish, and they are also catching. What is the difference? What is the difference? They have got this nice human body, and they are acting like birds and beasts. And they are kept in darkness. There is no enlightenment. This is the modern civilization. (pause) The smell. What is the smell?
Amogha: If we go up there, I don't think it will be there.
Prabhupada: Some decomposed things? And this is not good for you. (pause) They fish this side?
Amogha: The birds? Seagulls.
Prabhupada: He has got the human body. He also... These birds are catching fish. He does not know that he has got other business.
Amogha: At the school, the students say, "Why not eat fish? Jesus was passing out fish, in the Bible. And we all catch fish. We like to catch fish." And then we tell them about meat. So, they think that we are loosing a great pleasure, that we cannot eat meat.
Prabhupada: You tell them, that you will be very merry—that's all right. But do you want to stop these merry affairs all of a sudden? Ask them, what will they reply?
Amogha: They'll say "No, we don't want to stop."
Prabhupada: Then, the nature will stop it. What are you going to arrange for that?
Amogha: They say, "We don't know what will happen after, so we'll just enjoy and have fun now, as much as possible."
Prabhupada: So why have you come to school? Why don't you play all day?
Amogha: Because we need to get a good job so we...
Prabhupada: Then, they are thinking of future. Now we are thinking of the future. That is ignorance—that they do not know what is future life. They are thinking of the future, that's a fact, but because they are kept in darkness, about future life, they are doing all this irresponsible work.
Amogha: But nowadays people usually only go to school because the law requires it. Then at the age of...
Prabhupada: Law requires or not requires, they are going to school with some future hope. So every sane man should think of the future. But because they are kept in darkness, they are all insane. They do not know what is the future of life. That is the defect. Everyone is thinking for future, but he does not know what is future after death. That is their ignorance. And Bhagavad-gita begins that as the child has future, the boy has future, the young man has future, similarly the old man has also future. So that they do not know. That is their ignorance.
Amogha: A lot of them will accept, "Yes, there is future after death," but...
Prabhupada: That he does not know, what is that future.
Amogha: "Oh, yeah, we haven't discovered that right yet."
Paramahamsa: Many of them say we cannot prove there is any life after death.
Prabhupada: Yes, this if proof. Just as the boy is there and the father is there, the boy is going to become father. This is future. Both of them are there. The boy is going to be the father, and the father is going to be the grandfather. Where there is no future? The rascals, they do not know, say that, but there is future. How can you stop it? The boy is going to be father, the father is going to be grandfather. This is future.
Amogha: But then he dies, and they cannot see any future after that.
Prabhupada: Your seeing has no power. This is no argument, "I cannot see." I cannot see the other side. That does not mean there is nothing. This is all rascaldom. He has become authority "I want to see." What you can see? Now this is Indian Ocean. On the other side there is India, and other islands, but you cannot see it. Does it mean there is nothing? So, these are foolish questions. Because they are rascals they put such questions and nonsense. That is the proof that they are rascals. They are simply taking authority his little vision. That's all. What is your vision? Why don't you see what is the other side? But does it mean there is nothing because you cannot see? WHen one says "I cannot see," that means he is a rascal number one. He's believing so much upon his seeing. He does not know that he is a most insignificant person, so there is no value of his seeing. That he does not know. Therefore he is a rascal. Is it not? He's believing his eyes so greatly that "I cannot see." And what is the value of your seeing? What you can see?
Amogha: But there are so many people who come to us and say, "Well, we can see." But we don't believe they can see.
Prabhupada: What they can see?
Amogha: We don't think anyone can see.
Prabhupada: No. Nobody can see. Therefore Vedas say your seeing should be through the book of knowledge. That is seeing. Not with your these rascal eyes. What is the value of these rascal eyes? We know that there is, through books, through geography, we know that the other side is India. Not by seeing with these eyes, by touching it or by smelling it. These senses are useless. But these rascals depend on the senses-sense perception. Therefore they are rascals. Imperfect sense perception they believe too much. Therefore they are rascals. They do not know the value of the senses. Mudha. Pasyati jnana-caksusa. That is seeing, jnana caksusa, by the eyes of knowledge, not by these imperfect senses. Pasyati jnana caksusa. Everyone is anxious for the future. Why do they keep bank balance? Thinking of the future. Why they make insurance? Why they make hospital insurance? Everyone is thinking of the future. But because he is rascal, he is thinking simply for this span of life. Tatha dehantara praptir. Again you have to accept another body. That they do not know. So rascal. Simply calculating for this span of life.
Paramahamsa: We accept that, but in the next life we have a new future. This life we have this future, and in the next life we have...
Prabhupada: Then suppose you become one..., what is called? Clam? And enter into this. Will that be a very good future? You have seen the, what is called, the crab (makes noise). They know everything—how to defend, how to eat, how to... You like that type of life?
Paramahamsa: Well I don't like it now, but if I was a crab I might like it.
Prabhupada: Become a crab. That's all right. This is their solace. This is ignorance. You don't like it, but "When I become crab, I'll like it." That is maya's covering. Otherwise he cannot live. If the crab thinks that "I was king in my past life. Now I have become a crab," it would be horrible for him. Therefore he forgets. That is a concession of maya. Forget whatever you have had. Just like here they try to forget by drinking, intoxication. That kind of forgetfulness is also happiness for the rascals. Nobody wants to be degraded. But if in degradation one forgets his past life, if that kind of happiness is happiness, you can do it. This is for the fools. The dog forgets that he was a prime minister in his past life, and his statue is now being worshiped in the memorial hall. And he has become a dog. (If) this kind of happiness is happiness, let him take it. Actually it is like this.
Paramahamsa: Well, all of these things are relative anyway. So whether I am a dog or human being, it doesn't really make much difference, because I'm still existing.
Prabhupada: Still, you don't want to become a dog when you are a human being.
Paramahamsa: But when I'm a dog I wouldn't want to become a human being either.
Prabhupada: Yes, this means happiness in ignorance. That is ass. He's bearing two tons of load, and if he is thinking "I am happy," it is nice. Therefore they are called ass. Accepting distress as happiness. Therefore they are called ass. That is the difference between ass and human being.
Amogha: I saw some asses in the university yesterday. Asses and monkeys. One professor was working so hard he was almost crying, because he had so many exams to mark. So great burden on his mind.
Paramahamsa: Isn't it, then, if one is happy, that's all that counts? If his happiness is also relative. So if I am a monkey...
Prabhupada: No. There is absolute happiness. You do not know that. We are meant for that, because we are living beings. But on account of your ass quality you do not like to understand. Mudha nabhijanati.
Amogha: My parents used to tell me that nothing can be absolutely true, because everything is really finer shades of grey.
Prabhupada: He has no idea what is absolute truth. He is in darkness. He does not know there is absolute world. This is the relative worlds.
Amogha: They think that people who say there is Absolute Truth have not observed the other thoughts of other people, so they haven't seen everything.
Prabhupada: What is that other thought? We know everyone's thought. We know everyone's thought.
Amogha: In the university newspaper I was reading, all their discussion is about things like homosexuality is all right or not all right.
Prabhupada: Accha? They are discussing?
Amogha: Yes. In the newspaper articles in the university. The homosexuals are campaigning for equal rights. And there is a big debate whether homosexuals are good or bad. All over the world there are homosexuals, and also they are arguing over Palestine and Israel. And sometimes (indistinct) In Melbourne there was fighting between people who support Israel and Palestine. All these arguments they have in the newspapers.
Paramahamsa: Even in Los Angeles they have a group of homosexuals who used to get harassed by people all the time. So now they have become a military group, and they carry weapons. And if anybody harasses them, they shoot them. They're called Militant Homosexuals.
Amogha: In one high school here they asked the question whether we accept homosexuality. And I said, "Of course not. This is only a perversion." And they said, "This is nature's way to stop overpopulation," because there won't be any children. So much foolish.
Prabhupada: How degraded the human society is becoming. And the children, they are discussing.
Amogha: It seems that step by step, in the law courts and the judges, everyone is step by step accepting more and more degradation, and makind it legal, everything.
Jayadharma: Even when a man commits first-degree murder he only gets ten years' jail. There are cases of people committing cold-blooded murder and only getting ten years' jail. And then after that, getting out again and doing the same thing.
Paramahamsa: They think that "This poor man was psychologically disturbed and killed someone." So they give him ten years in jail, then they say, "Now he is rehabilitated, he has been very nice, and in the prison he was acting very nicely, so we want him to be happy. So we'll let him out on parole as long as he's good." Then they let him out.
Amogha: That's why we take your books to the prisons. Sometimes we have a contest to see who can distribute the most books in three days. When they were deciding who would go with Madhudvisa Swami to India, they had a contest to see who could distribute the most books and get the most laxmi at the same time. So they would collect much laxmi, then they would go out and give away books to the prisons and jails and hospitals. Cases of books. They put them in the libraries too. They agreed; otherwise they didn't get. They would ask them if they would use it, and they said yes. So in three days they distributed very, very many books.
Amogha: Yes. First they collected the money elsewhere, then they gave it away to the hospitals and prisons. One boy he collected in one day, he won the contest, he collected seven hundred and fifty dollars in one day. Australian dollars. That's almost one thousand U.S. dollars. I don't remember how many books, very, very many books he gave away also. Big books, hardbound books, Krsna books, Srimad-Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: So, you are trying to serve Krsna very nicely. That is very good. These rascals are in ignorance and you are trying to enlighten them. Very good service. [break] After reading a book does anybody come and ask questions? Do they receive regularly letters and enquiries?
Amogha: Yes. Here they do. I answer many of the letters when they come. Last week, just before we came over to Perth, one boy wrote a letter, he said, "I cannot come to your temple, but I am a student in Geelong"—that's one city near Melbourne—"And when I come to Melbourne I always get your Back to Godhead magazine." So he said, "How can I become a member of the Hare Krsna movement?" So I wrote him a letter telling him about getting more books and chanting. And one man wrote us a letter from New Zealand. He said, "I have Srimad-Bhagavatam parts one, two and three. Can you please tell me how many other parts I can get, because I want to have them all."
Prabhupada: That is very good.
Amogha: And in the schools they have comparative religion courses, and they usually write us a letter saying, "Can you please tell us, for our comparative religions class, what you believe and what is behind your movement?" And things like this. And if they are close enough we usually go there, or if not we write them and send them some literature. Everyone in the classes I find in the schools, everyone is bored with the ideas they are teaching. Everyone has heard it all, and they are bored. But when we come, they become very interested. Just like at one school. We had one hour. We showed the film, then we talked and answered questions for one hour, and then the bell rang. It was time for their next class. So the teacher said, "Students, shall we go to the next class or stay here?" And they said, "Oh, let's stay here. This is much better." So they stayed for one more hour. Their teaching is so dry, but we handed out maha-prasadam, and it was very interesting. Usually in each class there are three or four students who are especially pious, and they come, they stay afterwards and ask many questions. We can also see that they are more affected by the understanding than the other students.
Prabhupada: This road is good. There is no traffic.
Paramahamsa: All of the temples they are receiving letters regularly from (indistinct)
Prabhupada: It is not meant for mass people. Only selected fortunate. My Guru Maharaja used to say, "If I could make one person to be Krsna conscious, then my mission would be successful." It is not for mass person. Only the fortunate they can do. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, by introducing sankirtana, even the mass can take part. When there is sankirtana, everyone joins. And by joining in that way, they will become purified.
Amogha: In Sydney, the city council once tried to stop us, legally, from chanting in the streets. First they arrested us two years ago, but then they spent many dollars of tax money to prepare a case for the court, and they didn't even tell us. They had the court session, and the judge ruled that "This Hare Krsna chanting in the streets is good. It adds color to the city and is not illegal. Why you are saying this is illegal? This is their right. And it makes the city more colorful."
Prabhupada: Nice judge. God gave him sense.
Amogha: So actually many people like to see the chanting now. When we go downtown with a big party on Friday and Saturday nights, when they have late-night shopping and movies, many people clap, and they dance a little bit. Sometimes mocking, but also one can see they're affected. And usually if we stop in front of a cinema and chant there, fifty or more people they just stop and they stare, and they can't think of anything else. They just watch and watch and watch. They seem to be fascinated by the sound of Krsna's name.
Prabhupada: There is a natural tendency to hear. Artificially they stopped. Nitya siddha krsna bhakti. Appeals to the heart immediately. Unless he is too much sinful it will appeal immediately.
Amogha: In Sydney there was one teacher in a school, a private school, for rich men's sons, very, very wealthy. And he is the head of general studies and the school chaplain. A Christian. One boy from the school became a devotee, although he still went to the school. And the discussion came up in class about what the Hare Krsnas believe. So he invited us to come.
Prabhupada: The clergyman?
Amogha: Yes, school chaplain, and he liked it so much. I remember he was taking notes, and he was smiling every time one point came up that he liked. So he asked us to come again the next week, and again, and then the next time we went through six classes in one day. For about two months he asked us again and again, and then to show the film. And he was always taking notes. He would say, "What was that again? Part and parcel?"
Prabhupada: He is sincere.
Amogha: Yes, he was very sincere. Then one day he came to the temple on Sunday because I invited him. He wanted to make sure, he wanted to find out the difference between us and Christianity. But he was convinced in the end that the main philosophy is the same point, the same purpose.
Amogha: And he ate a big plate of prasadam. He liked it very much. So he was saying that perhaps we can have some regular comparative religion course in the school, and when we show the students, tell them about Hare Krsna movement as a study, about, as he calls it, our religion, so they can also come in a bus to the temple.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Prabhupada: It is a good reception. So that is still going on?
Amogha: It hasn't started yet. This is the plan. But sometimes he hesitates, because he has doubts.
Prabhupada: Superstition. That is superstition.
Amogha: He gets in bad association, and then he begins to doubt a little bit, I think.
Prabhupada: You do your duty, that's all. (pause) What is this? Stone or something?
Amogha: Part of the street I think. I think it's sandstone from the beach. (pause) Many politicians are afraid that Australia may be attacked by the Communists. Everyone is very much afraid of what could happen in the future, because the United States is becoming weaker.
Prabhupada: Now they are indulging homosex, how they will become strong? And the students, they are discussing, that means they are having. The stamina is being lost. Now what they have created, it will be lost.
Amogha: They all seem to think that spiritual life is something to think about, something...
Prabhupada: Not very important.
Amogha: Yes. They think it's not practical action. They think practical action is politics or some physical thing like the hospital. Money.
Prabhupada: It means they have no idea of the spiritual identity. Their idea is that matter is important. But they do not know that matter is not important, but the spirit is important. That is moving the matter. It is very easy to understrand. Because the spirit soul is within this body, it is moving. But they cannot understand-dull-headed. What is that force that is moving this body? That they do not consider to understand.
Amogha: Srila Prabhupada? When people in the street hear Krsna's name, the chanting, or they get some literature, does that mean they will not take birth as an animal?
Prabhupada: No. They'll get birth in a good family. Sucinam srimatam gehe [Bg. 6.41]. If they simply appreciate "It is very nice," then in the next life, human life is guaranteed. In a very nice family. Simply if he appreciates, "Yes, it is very nice"—that's all. Then he'll get another chance.
Amogha: Many people think the pictures are very nice.
Prabhupada: Anything they say nice, that means it is guaranteed, next life. Or even in this life it will definitely help. As soon as he reads some pages, then it is guaranteed. Those who are enquiring, that means they are liking. Their life is guaranteed.
Amogha: One man who joined us about Rathayatra time last year was a solicitor. He used to buy our books but he never read them. But he would keep them on his bookshelf. And he used to always think, "Those are such beautiful books." He used to think like that.
Prabhupada: This is appreciation.
Amogha: He never got time to read it.
Prabhupada: It doesn't matter. If he keeps the books with appreciation, that makes his life sure, insured. He immediately becomes in touch with God. Who keeps the book with reverence and love, immediately he becomes in touch with God. Because these books are representative of God.
Amogha: When we go to a school, I first ask, "How many students have seen us chanting in the steets?" Immediately they all raise their hands.
Prabhupada: It is a very nice service you are doing. Krsna will be satisfied, hari-tosana. As soon as Krsna is satisfied, your preaching is perfect. (end)
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