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May 23, 1975, Melbourne
Srutakirti: The following is Prabhupada's final morning walk in Melbourne, Australia, in the Botanical Gardens on May 23rd, 1975.
Prabhupada: ...filled with fruits and flowers, then it would have invited many nice birds. But they do not know that. [break] ...chirping, the beauty of the gardens would have been more beautiful. But they cannot invite. There is no fruits, no flower.
Sabhapati: Srila Prabhupada, all the devotees on the walk this morning, they are the book distributors.
Sabhapati: They are the Australian book distributors, all the devotees on the walk this morning.
Prabhupada: It is a fact that they do not grow fruit trees because people will eat and will not work? Is that the policy? Somebody told me like that, that if there is enough fruit, then people will eat and they will not work.
Amogha: The fruit business would go down also. The fruit stands would not be able to sell much.
Prabhupada: Just see. Bad policy.
Srutakirti: The government does that. On some farmers they will pay them not to grow to keep the price high.
Prabhupada: Kill animals. Just see the policy. Instead of growing natural food, they will kill animal. Purposefully sinful life.
Srutakirti: But they still have to grow food for the animal. They're growing the food, but they give it to the animal.
Srutakirti: No, the food. They grow food for the animals, but then they kill the animal.
Prabhupada: Just see. They can grow food both for the animals and for human being. Instead, they are simply growing food for the animals and killing them. Ta'ra madhye jihwa ati, lobhamoy sudurmati. You sing this before taking prasadam. The tongue is the greatest enemy and greedy. Ta'ra madhye jihwa ati, lobhamoy sudurmati. For the satisfaction of the tongue they are risking their own life and committing sinful life to suffer later on. Therefore the first-class man's first duty is to samah, controlling the mind. If one can control the mind, that "If I can live with grains, food, and milk, why shall I kill the ani...?" this is controlling the mind. They cannot control even this small thing. "Live and let live,"—this policy they do not follow. "Live and kill others." "Live at the cost of others."
Australian devotee 1: Srila Prabhupada, it says in the Srimad-Bhagavatam that the weaker are the subsistence of the strong. So therefore human beings, they feel justified...
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the... but where is the human consciousness? A tiger cannot understand this. He will kill a lower animal. But you are not animal; you are man. You should have this discrimination, that "If I can live otherwise very nicely, why shall I kill animal?" That is humanity.
Australian devotee 1: But also, is not eating vegetables killing a living entity also?
Prabhupada: No, it is not killing. If you take fruit, where is the killing? The tree is there. If you takes food grains, the food grains, after being produced, the tree dies automatically.
Srutakirti: Yeah. Wheat is harvested after it dies, not while it is alive.
Australian devotee 2: Srila Prabhupada, in New Zealand we have a situation where the main industry is killing animals, the biggest industry, yet there is so much rain, so much nice atmosphere over there. Why is this? Why is there such a nice atmosphere but they are killing so many cows? Is that that they are innocent and they do not know and so Krsna is not punishing them so much?
Prabhupada: Yes, they will be punished. (pause) [break] ...so many motor accidents. And there will be war. Then wholesale punishment. Then killing, being killed within the womb of the mother. They are being punished. Nowadays these things have been introduced. Now this child which is being killed by the mother, they are all these sinful men. They cannot come out even, out of the womb of the mother. There they are killed. Nature's law is very strict.
Australian devotee 3: In the western society, Srila Prabhupada, people who are displaying a very bad sinful reaction in their birth are put away in institutions so they cannot be seen by the general mass of people.
Prabhupada: Hmm? What is that?
Srutakirti: He's saying people that are suffering very greatly in this life—they have so many mental disorders or physical disorders—they put them in institutions so that no one can see them.
Prabhupada: No one can see them. That means they are not suffering? (laughter) Just see how foolish persons.
Hari-sauri: Srila Prabhupada, this morning we have seen already a reaction is coming about against the killing of unborn children. There is one big poster that is being put up by a protest group which says, "The Queen Victoria Hospital kills unborn babies. Protest now," like this. So there is, I think, it's the Right to Life Movement in Victoria here that is fighting against this abortion activity.
Prabhupada: But they are so sinful that they are unable to carry out. Upadeso hi murkhanam prakopaya na santaye. If there is a serpent, if you advise him, "Please do not kill; be gentleman," will be become? Snake. Snake will kill, unnecessarily bite and kill. Sarpah krurah khalah krurah sarpat kruratarah khalah: "There are two envious living entities. One is the serpent and other is the envious man. So the envious man is more dangerous than the serpent." Why? Now, the serpent can be charmed by drugs and by mantra, but this man cannot be charmed. So this advice will not act. They are so dangerous than the serpent.
Australian devotee 3: How, then, can we advise them, Srila Prabhupada, if they are like serpents? How can we...?
Prabhupada: You can advise only, "Chant Hare Krsna. Then everything will be all right," this one medicine. You can simply make plan how they will chant and take prasadam. Then everything all right. This simple method. Bring them: "Please come here, chant, dance, and take prasadam." They will be all good men. This process. Otherwise if you give them good advice, they will not be able to carry it. They are so sinful. Their treatment, the only treatment, is this Krsna consciousness movement. Somehow or other, bring them together. Let them chant. Let them dance and take prasadam. They will be all right. Kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha. There is no other means to rectify them. We are opening centers different parts of the world just to give them chance, "Please come here, take prasadam, chant, dance, enjoy," but that transcendental enjoyment will make them correct. We are the best friends of the human society.
harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]
Prabhupada: It is not effective. Just like the government spending to stop drug habit, millions of dollars, no use, but as soon as they come to us, immediately they give up. But still, the rascal will not pay the money to us. (laughter) We are doing so much benefit, but they will not pay. If you ask them money, "No, no, our money is not for religious purpose. For science. Our money is for science." Science means how, scientifically, you can kill cows. This is science. How, scientifically, you can become less than cats and dogs. This is their science. The cats and dogs also, they do not kill their children, but they are scientific advanced; the doctor advises, "Kill it."
Australian devotee 2: Srila Prabhupada, most of the people in the western world are Christians and they say the cow has no soul.
Prabhupada: This is not the question of Christian or western. This is the disease of the whole world. It is not that only the westerners are accused, not the others. No, it is... We don't say like that. Everyone... This is the influence of this Kali-yuga.
Australian devotee 2: They feel justified in killing because they say the animal has no soul.
Prabhupada: Just see how fool they are. Therefore we simply say these are rascals. They have not even the common sense of an uneducated man. And they are scientist. Why there is no soul? What is the proof? What is their argument? Why they say there is no soul? What is the argument?
Australian devotee 2: Because it says in the Bible that until one accepts Jesus Christ one has no soul.
Prabhupada: Jesus Christ said that animal has no soul? Has he said like that? Has he said?
Australian devotee 2: He says that one must be born again.
Prabhupada: Never he can say like that. He is not such a fool. He cannot say that.
Australian devotee 4: Like this priest said the other day, Srila Prabhupada. He said that the human being has a spirit soul, but the animal just has a soul. (laughter)
Prabhupada: (laughs) The same thing. "Everyone is sinful, but we are pure sinful." (laughter) Pure sinful.
Hari-sauri: Actually most sinful activity appears to be promoted by the government for economic development. They have big state lotteries. They are planning to spend six million dollars developing a greyhound racing park here in Australia.
Prabhupada: Just see. This is nice place to walk. Why on the ups and downs?
Srutakirti: We have a bad tour guide.
Hari-sauri: You were speaking before about controlling the tongue is very important. And in your lectures you have said simply by eating prasadam this is controlling the tongue. But still, we have tendency when there is a big feast to eat very much prasadam. Is this a good thing, or...?
Prabhupada: (chuckles) It is not very good, but it is still good. Instead of going to the restaurant and eat like the hogs and dogs, better take more prasadam. There is no harm. Krsna baro doyamoy, koribare jihwa jay. Krsna is so kind. Just to conquer over our tongue He has given us nice variety of prasada. Take it and control your tongue. Yes. Hmm. Don't come very near.
Australian devotee 5: Srila Prabhupada, you were telling this government man the other day not to kill the cows but to wait till they die. But they have a law that if the cow dies naturally, then it cannot be eaten.
Prabhupada: That means we must commit sin. The government...
Amogha: I think their idea is that if...
Prabhupada: But their argument is fallacious. Kill means it dies. So how we can eat? Just see the... See their intelligence. Kill means it dies.
Srutakirti: They say that if it dies naturally it is due to some disease, so there may be some harm in eating such meat.
Prabhupada: So that means nobody will die. Is there... The law is it to die. Why disease? Disease or no disease, everyone should die.
Srutakirti: But if we kill the cow without it, while it is healthy, then it is very good to eat the meat.
Prabhupada: Yes, but the argument is die. As soon as you kill, it is died. As soon as you take the fish out of the water it dies. So how you can say that dead animal is not good? It is dead. For argument's sake, "A dead animal is not good," but you make him dead. Then you eat. Where is the argument that dead animal is bad? You are eating dead. That means they are not even common sense. That is the rascaldom. Rascal means one who has no common sense even.
Australian devotee 5: They would say then, "Why don't you let the vegetables die naturally before you eat the vegetables?"
Prabhupada: Vegetable? We are not talking of vegetable; we are talking of animals. Why don't you kill your father? Old father, useless, kill him and eat.
Hari-sauri: Actually they are not very much concerned about their parents anymore either. They put them in institutions also when they get too old.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, time will come; they will kill their father. Now they are killing their children. Now they will kill their father. As soon as the whole world will become Communist they will kill the old man, as the Africans, they do it. Africans kill their grandfather, and it is a festival. Yes. They throw the grandfather on the roof of the cottage, and it, rolling down, it falls down. Twice, thrice it dies. That becomes a great festival of the grandsons. They are eating grandfather. Glorious grandsons.
Australian devotee 6: Then they eat the grandfather's brain.
Prabhupada: And, you do not know, they like to eat white men. (laughter) Yes. They kidnap or capture, some way or other, one white man, and they eat it very nicely.
Australian devotee 6: They say that the grandfather is very learned so they eat his brain so they can get his knowledge.
Prabhupada: Oh, they say like that? Oh, just see. He eats the experience. Harer nama harer nama [Cc. Adi 17.21].
Srutakirti: You were saying about how, in the car, that one eats the cow, they say, because it is sattvika.
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs)
Srutakirti: So the spiritual master, he is even more sattvika so he should be eaten.
Prabhupada: So eat the spiritual master.
Hari-sauri: Srila Prabhupada, are these cannibalistic tribes, Amazons and whatever, are they classed as subhuman?
Prabhupada: They are uncivilized. They are human being.
Prabhupada: Human being comes to perfection when he is Krsna conscious. So gradually they would have to come. Just like the bud of rose flower. When it is bud it is not so useful. When it fructifies, becomes a blossomed rose, then it is useful. Similarly, human being in other stages of life they are like buds. When they come to Krsna consciousness then they are blossomed flower.
Hari-sauri: But if they're committing so many sinful activities, murdering their father and like this, then how will they get to that stage of being able to approach Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: No, it will be checked. It will be checked. Just like if there is some worm in the bud, then the growing will be checked.
Srutakirti: Are the lower human species responsible for sinful activities?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. As soon as one is human being, he is responsible. Just like your state laws. Suppose a aborigine comes and does something criminal, will he be excused? Animal may be excused, but the man will not be excused.
Australian devotee 7: Srila Prabhupada, they mightn't excuse him, but they mightn't treat him as harshly as they would treat somebody in knowledge. Is this the same with the activities that these people perform?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Srutakirti: He said he wouldn't be treated as bad because an aborigine is not considered...
Australian devotee 7: He hasn't got the knowledge. He's ignorant.
Prabhupada: Still he is not excused by the law.
Australian devotee 6: He would be treated leniently.
Australian devotee 7: Would he be treated more leniently than someone that has knowledge.
Prabhupada: I do not know that. But ignorance is no excuse.
Australian devotee 8: Or that example, Srila Prabhupada. You said that the people in India are being punished more because they are in knowledge. They have the Vedas.
Amogha: On an earlier walk you were saying there are three kinds of Vedic evidence. Sruti, itihasa, and anumana, was it? I didn't understand what anumana was.
Prabhupada: Hypothesis. Hypothesis. Just like yesterday I was explaining that as soon as there is a machine, there is an operator. This is hypothesis. You cannot expect machine going on without operator. Similarly, this material nature is a machine and the operator is God. This is hypothesis. Even though you do not see God we can make this suggestion. That is human reasoning, logic. If any ordinary typewriter machine... This is a machine, but that requires operator. He is pushing this button; then it is working. It is not automatically working, any machine. So how this big machine is operating without any operator? What is this nonsense? They say, "There is no God. Nature, nature." What is the nature? Nature is a machine. Just like this body. This body is machine, and the operator is the soul, and the guide is the Supersoul. As soon as the soul goes away, then the machine does not work. This is common sense. But they have no common sense; therefore they are rascals, so-called scientists and others.
They have no common sense.
Sabhapati: So who is the greater rascal, the material scientist or the...
Prabhupada: Yes, everyone. Everyone who... That is the statement. Mudha. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. This class of men, they do not recognize God. Who? Those who are sinful, rascals, lowest of the mankind. Such people do not recognize God. Mudhas. (indistinct) educated. No, that education means false education. Real education is taken away by maya. Real education means to understand God. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]. If one does not understand what is God, his education is useless. It has no meaning. What is that education? Will that education save him from death? Then what is the value of his education? Your real problem is birth, death, old age, and disease. Can this material education stop it? Is the scientist able to stop one's old age? And does anyone, man, any man, wants to become old? No, nobody wants. Everyone wants to keep himself youthful. But can the science stop this, that he will not become old? He must become old.
Then where is the education value? You cannot solve your problem, so what is the meaning of education? Education, knowledge, means you have solved your problems. They are trying to do that, temporary problem. But ultimate problem they cannot solve. Therefore the value of this education is useless. Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. It is simply laboring after something, that's all.
Australian devotee 2: They say that the value of their education is that very soon they will be able to overcome birth, death, disease, and old age, that they almost have the solution. They are freezing people's bodies...
Prabhupada: Therefore younger generation, they are not interested in education. They see that, after all, the life is vacant even after education.
Hari-sauri: The leaders appear to have adopted a stopgap policy so that they can keep the people in ignorance and fool them that they are doing some good when actually they are not, so that they can maintain their position as leader. [break]
Prabhupada: ...bahir-artha-maninah. They are thinking by material adjustment they will be happy. That is not possible. But they are so fools, they do not think over it, that "Where is the solution? You have given me the chance to live in a skyscraper building, but is that solution of the problems?" They have no brain to ask this. Is it...? Does it mean that if you live in a skyscraper building there will be no death, no disease, no old age? Then where is the solution? But real problem is going on. Everyone is trying to save himself from disease, from old age, from death. Why do they go to the physician as soon as there is some disease? "That I may not die." The attempt is to save from the death, but ultimately they are dying. They have no brain to think of it. Why do they go to the physician as soon as one is diseased? Why do they go?
Amogha: They want to be well.
Prabhupada: Yes, then "well" means they want to save themself from death. That means they want not to die. But death is there. Then where is the solution of problem? But they have no brain to think that "What these rascals will do? My problem is there. It is not solved." And still they accept. Therefore in the Bhagavata it is said, sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh [SB 2.3.19]. They are eulogized, they are praised, glorified, by another animal. He is an animal, big animal, and a small animal says, "Oh, you are our leader." The big animal is praised by the small animal. Both of them are animals. None of them are human being. So this is going on. A big animal bluffs him that "I have done so much for you. You give me vote." That's all. And the small animal thinks, "Yes, he has done so much. Give him vote." This is going on. Andha yathandhaih. Everything is discussed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that one blind man is leading other blind men. What is the use?
Hm? If I am blind man, if I say, "Come behind me. I shall take to St. Kilda," and as soon as I go in the road, you are killed, I am killed, that's all. That is going on.
Australian devotee 6: They say at death, there is death then finish.
Prabhupada: But if you will be finished, then why you are attempting so much? Sit down now. Why you are making advancement of civilization?
Australian devotee 6: For their children, they say.
Prabhupada: If you advance in civilization or do not advance in civilization, you will die. That is sure. Then why do you labor so much? Huh? The animals, they do not labor so much. They live peacefully on the condition of the nature. Why do you labor so much? If the result is the same—the animal will die and you will die—then why you are laboring so much for nothing? That means they have no common sense even. Therefore they are rascals. That is discussed in Bhagavad-gita. Krsna said to Arjuna, "If you think there was no life before this body and if you think that there will be no life after this body, then why you are anxious for the body of your brothers and sisters?" So all these philosophies have been discussed in Bhagavad-gita. After all, the conclusion is that they are all rascals. That's all. We have to take them as such rascals. After death everything is finished—that a child knows—but why you are making so permanent building? Piling, (imitates pile driver sound) "Donkhs!
Donkhs!" very strong building. You are not strong enough to live there, so why you are making strong building? The building will stay, and you will die. So what is the use of making a strong building? Let the building also go with you. Why do you labor so much? Is it not? You are making strong building but you are not strong enough to live there. And why you are laboring so much? What is the answer?
Hari-sauri: Their excuse is that they are leaving something for the next generation, for their children.
Prabhupada: But they will also not live.
Australian devotee 1: They think they will be recognized by their good works.
Prabhupada: That means asses. The asses think that "I will be recognized by my work." He takes so much labor, load, although nothing, not a grain of the load belongs to him. But he takes the load unnecessarily. So this is their business. He will not live, his son will not live, his grandson will not live, but he is making permanent business.
Amogha: But when we're living we can enjoy.
Prabhupada: Yes, that enjoy. Pramattah. They are called madmen. Pramattah pasyann api na pasyati. They know it certainly, "Every one of us will die," but seeing also, they do not see. And that is madman. Pramattah pasyann api na pasyati. That the animal, he is seeing that "One animal is being killed. Next time is mine," but still eating grass. He has no anxiety. This is called pramattah pasyann api na pasyati. This is animal life, that even though fact is there, they will close their eyes. That's all. This is animal life.
Australian devotee 1: Srila Prabhupada, even if there is a life after death, I don't know what it's going to be like, so why should I worry about it now?
Prabhupada: Yes, if you are a man, you should be worried. Because you are not human being, next life you are going to be cat, you should be worried.
Australian devotee 1: But the cats and the dogs, they are also happy.
Prabhupada: And if you want to become cats and dogs and happy, you be. Don't worry. That's all. But we are worried: "Why shall I become cat and dog? We shall go back to home, live with Krsna." That is our ambition. Your ambition is to become cat and dog. You become.
Australian devotee 6: They are happy with that.
Prabhupada: That's all right. You become happy. But we are not happy. What is the idea here?
Amogha: They want it to grow straight up. It looks like it started to go sideways.
Prabhupada: Oh. [break] ...human being who knows things that I explained this thing that by nature's process I have come to this human body. Now what is next progress? That is human being. And even still I remain cats and dog but they have no inquiry, then what is the use of getting this human body?
Australian devotee 4: Why, then, Srila Prabhupada, is a person given a human body then, if they...
Prabhupada: Yes, that means better conscience. He can consider so many things. "Why I am dying? I do not want to die. Why there are so many miserable condition?" We are covering because there is miserable condition of this winter. I don't want to suffer from cold. Therefore I am covered. So this is struggle for existence. The human being can understand that why there is struggle? Why not I am happy naturally? This question must be there. Otherwise he is cat and dog. The dogs do not inquire all these things. Then if you have no such power to inquire and understand, then you are no better than dog. And if you are happy to remain cats and dogs, that is your business. But a real human being, he will never be happy. That is human being. Everyone is trying to improve his material condition. Therefore the motor car is going here and there, here and there. Why they are trying? Let them remain satisfied in any condition. The modern economic law is that create new necessities of life.
That is the way of western civilization. They are creating motor cars every year, and the bank is prepared to give you loan so that you may work day and night. Take loan from the bank and purchase a motor car and repay him by working so their machine will go on. This is the policy, economic policy. Is it not? Yes. Keep them working, busy. But what is the purpose of this working? Now, when death is there, everything is finished. And everything will be finished, for that working? Just see their knowledge. Everything will be finished and for this purpose I have to work so hard?
Australian devotee 6: They think that you might as well enjoy while you can.
Prabhupada: Yes, if working hard like ass is enjoyment, let them enjoy. Let these rascals enjoy like that.
Australian devotee 2: Why do so many humans, Srila Prabhupada, they do not use their propensity to ask the questions? They simply live like animals.
Prabhupada: Because they are animal. They are educated like animal.
Australian devotee 2: So it is the fault of the education.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is the responsibility of the government, guardians, father. They do not give them proper education. Therefore Bhagavata says, "If you cannot give proper education to your children, then don't marry. Don't become father." That is contraceptive. If you are unable to give... What is that? Pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat, na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum. Samupeta-mrtyum: this body means you have accepted death. This body means, material body. So one should not become a father if he cannot stop the death of his son. That is the Vedic injunction. "Don't become a father, don't become a mother, if you cannot train your children so that he may be saved from this impending death." That is the instruction. And who is doing that? Their philosophy is: "After death everything is finished. I will be finished. My child will be finished. That's all." [break]
Australian devotee 2: ...Srila Prabhupada, they can teach these people how to educate the youngsters. Is this right?
Prabhupada: Therefore so many books. [break]
Hari-sauri: ...the verse that you have put in the front of the first volume of the Srimad-Bhagavatam, krsne sva-dhamopagate, that the Bhagavatam can give light even to people in ignorance.
Prabhupada: Yes. Kalau nasta-drsam. Nasta-drsam: "They have lost their sight, what is the progress of life. They have lost their sight." (devotees offer obeisances as Prabhupada enters car) (end)
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