Evening Discussion

May 6, 1975, Perth
Prabhupada: Where is difficulty to understand? If it is not understood, put your question and try to understand.
Amogha: In verses like this one, when there is the multi-use of one word, like the word atma is mentioned here to refer to four potential meanings. Sometimes professors and some scholars argue on the point, how do we know which one of the meanings is used in this verse?
Prabhupada: Any one you can take, and it will be explained.
Amogha: So any of the four meanings is also the same true meaning.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Amogha: Sometimes they claim that we should not claim that our choice is the true choice, but they don't understand that any of those meanings can be true at the same time.
Prabhupada: Yes, this body is true. We have got body. We don't say it is false. It is true. Bodily pains and pleasures we feel, so how can I say that the body is false? The body means bodily pains and pleasures, then we are affected, so how you can say it is false? Similarly the mind, and soul is absolute thing. Factually. So any item you take, you can understand by thorough study.
Paramahamsa: In some cases, in a more controversial case, the word chosen, or the meaning chosen for a particular Sanskrit word, may change the whole meaning of the verse, but because...
Prabhupada: Therefore you have to take the parampara meaning. Because we are foolish, we cannot understand properly. Tad vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet. Therefore, one has to go to guru and understand the meaning by parampara. You cannot make your own meaning. The meaning is already there. But if you cannot understand, then you should approach guru and understand the meaning by parampara.
Paramahamsa: Sometimes people ask where Swami Prabhupada get his meanings for different words, because they would differ, they would disagree and pick some other word. But they don't know that you are simply taking the verse and the meaning of the words word for word, as the previous acaryas have done.
Prabhupada: Krsna says. You take that meaning. Where is the difficulty? You do not know, and neither you accept Krsna's words. Therefore you remain foolish. You foolishly... First of all you do not know, you are imperfect. And one who knows, you do not take his words. Then you remain foolish. What can we do? What is the answer? You are foolish. So you have to know from others. When we say that you take from others who are perfect, then you will not take. And you are foolish, so remain foolish. What can we do? Hmm?
Paramahamsa: Sometimes people ask, though, they say, "Why is it that even among the acaryas sometimes we find there is a difference of opinion?"
Prabhupada: They are not acaryas. They are not acaryas. There is no difference of understanding between acaryas. What Madhvacarya understands, we also understand. Suppose you are present also. So there is no difference. What Ramanujacarya understands, we also understand. What Caitanya Mahaprabhu understand, we also understand. So where is the difference? Difference should be that the fact that he is not acarya. As soon as he differs from the previous acaryas, that means he is not acarya. Otherwise there is full agreement between all the acaryas. Just like Krsna is the Supreme Person, all acaryas agree. Where is the difference? Does Ramanujacarya differ from Madhvacarya, or Madhvacarya differ from Sri Caitanya, Caitanya differs from—no. There is no difference. That is Vaisnava. All the Vaisnavas understand that Visnu is the Supreme. There may be, sometimes, such as Krsna is understood as incarnation of Visnu, and sometimes they understand Visnu as the incarnation of Krsna. That is sampradaya. That is sampradaya. But either Krsna or Visnu, He is Supreme, that is accepted by all.
Paramahamsa: So that point is not so important whether Krsna is coming from Visnu or Visnu is coming from Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is not important. Because, actually both of them the same, the Supreme. That example we give that candle, two candles, that so far the power of lighting is concerned, both of them equal. Now, you may say this is first candle, I say if it is first candle. But so far the power is concerned, there is no difference of opinion. If I love somebody, I'll say he is first. And if you love somebody, you'll say he is first. But both of them same. Just like devotees, some devotees are very... Hanumanji, he'll never accept Krsna. And the gopis will never accept Rama or Visnu. So far the Krsna and Visnu, they are all the same. What do you think?
Paramahamsa: I think perhaps (indistinct) So actually the differences, whatever little differences may arise, those differences amongst the acaryas, they are due to different feelings of love for Krsna or His manifestations.
Prabhupada: You'll find in some, among some devotees, they will criticize, "Why you are worshiping Ramacandra? He could not save even His wife." (laughter) And some will, "Ah, you are worshiping Krsna. He was so fond of women." Like that. In Vrndavana you'll find they are different. Somebody will say, "Hare Krsna," another will say, "Sita Rama." There will be competition. There is not difference. Both of them know that either I worship Rama or Krsna, They are the same.
Amogha: Srila Prabhupada? Here it mentions Brahman, and as I understood omkara... My question is whether omkara is a representation...
Prabhupada: There is no question about omkara there. Discuss on the verse. But omkara is also Krsna. Pranavah sarva vedesu. Raso 'ham apsu kaunteya pranavah sarva vedesu [Bg. 7.8]. Krsna says, "I am pranavah." So omkara is not different than Krsna. But omkara is pronounced by the impersonalists. That is the difference. Krsna, when He says that "I am pranavah, I am omkara," then where is the objection? They foolishly say that omkara is better than Krsna. There is no need of chanting "Krsna." That is not good. But so far we are concerned, we say there is no difference between omkara and Krsna. Other systems, Christianism or Buddhism or Mohamedanism, they have got one book, Koran, Bible, or... What is the Buddhist scripture? One book. And we have got so many, dealing with the same subject matter. So which is better? Higher mathematics, or two plus two? They should understand the gravity of this movement, my presentation of books. They haven't got so many books. Two thousand years past, the Christian religion has got only one book, Bible. And their only pastime of Christ is crucifixion. There is the cross. Therefore it has become hackneyed. People are no more interested. Neither they can explain very nicely. Neither they follow strictly whatever little information they have. Then?
Amogha: Next verse?
adhiyajnah katham ko 'tra
dehe 'smin madhusudana
prayana-kale ca katham
jneyo 'si niyatatmabhih
(devotees repeat verse and Amogha reads word-for-word synonyms)
Translation: "How does this Lord of sacrifice live within the body, and in which part does He live, O Madhusudana? And how can those engaged in devotional service know You at the time of death?" [break]
Paramahamsa: ...Madhusudana because He killed the demon Madhu. But who was that Madhu?
Prabhupada: A demon, it is said.
Paramahamsa: But I don't think we've heard that story before.
Prabhupada: In the beginning, when Brahma was created, one demon, Madhu, came to swallow him. And Krsna killed him. Madhu-Kaitava, two brothers, Madhu and Kaitava.
Paramahamsa: He came to swallow Brahma?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Paramahamsa: So he was one of the first demons killed.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Amogha: May we ask questions about pronouncing the Sanskrit?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Amogha: When the a-h with the dot is in the middle of the verse should it always be pronounced clearly, a-ha. Adhi-yajna-ha, or is it more like adhi-yajna.
Prabhupada: That is stated there. In the verse what it is?
Amogha: Adhi-yaj... Well, it depends on whether I pronounce it right. (laughs) But it is spelled, a-d-h-i-y-a-j-n-a-h with a dot underneath. So...
Prabhupada: Adhi-yajna. When we divide the word, then the first noun form is used. Sanskrit grammar is very difficult. It requires twelve years to learn simply Sanskrit grammar. So, that is not possible. So whatever is there, you understand that. Sanskrit grammar is very, very difficult. At least twelve years it requires. And if you understand Sanskrit grammar, then you can read all the Vedic literature without any translation. Simply by studying. Therefore the Sanskrit scholars are first of all taught grammar. And when one is expert in reading grammar properly, then all Vedic literature becomes very simplified.
Amogha: The Supersoul, does He... I remember in one place it describes that the Lord is so small that He can enter even into the heart of the individual soul, and...
Prabhupada: Even into the atom. So where is the difficulty?
Amogha: Well sometimes it is described that the Supersoul is situated beside the individual soul. So He's beside the individual soul, not inside the individual soul.
Prabhupada: Inside does not mean He is not beside. We are inside this room, that does not mean I an not beside the room. Because I live within the room, does it mean that the room and myself are the same? Then, why don't you understand this? God may be within anything, but that does not mean that He is equal or one with that thing. That is Mayavadi philosophy, foolish philosophy. Because I am within this room, does it mean that the room and myself are the same? I am more important than the room. So what is the difficulty to understand? Does it mean because I am within the room, I am less important than the room? The room is important or I am important? Who is important?
Amogha: You are.
Prabhupada: So similarly, Krsna may enter within anything, but still He is more important than anything. This is simultaneous. Andantarastham paramanu-cayantarastham—Krsna is within and without. That is Krsna's position. Antah bahih avasthitamin Kunti's prayers you will find that Krsna, "You are within, and you are without, still nobody can understand." That is stated. What is our experience? Within and without. But Krsna is both, within and without, and still we do not see. Nato natyadharo yathajust like a person playing on the stage, and his relatives and others they cannot understand that Mr. Such-and-such is playing. They are seeing something else. He is playing before them, he is known to them, but he still cannot understand. This example is given, nato natyadharo yatha. So Kuntidevi explained this. Did you not read Kunti's prayer? Kunti says, antar bahir avasthitah. "You are situated within and without. Everywhere you are." But still the foolish men cannot understand. And why they cannot? Nato natyadharo yatha. Just like one's father is playing on the stage, but because he is playing in a different role, or dressing in a different role, even the son cannot understand. So what is the difficulty? Hmm? Difficulty is mind; otherwise there is no difficulty. I am foolish, therefore... Otherwise Krsna is visible to everyone. We have got two kinds of experience, within and without. He is present within and without, but still we cannot see Krsna. That is my foolishness, that is my imperfection. We have to become perfect, then we will see Krsna everywhere. That is morning sadhana, spiritual consciousness, advancement. The more we advance in spiritual consciousness, Krsna we'll realize more and more. Svayam eva sphuraty adhah: you cannot see Krsna, but as soon as you become purified, He reveals Himself. It is not due to you that you can see. When Krsna allows Himself to be seen by you, then you can see. So you have to become qualified to see Him; otherwise He is everywhere present, we can't see Him. And without being qualified, if you want to see Him, that is not possible. Naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya samavrtah [Bg. 7.25]. Find out this verse.
naham prakasah sarvasya
yoga-maya samavrtah
mudho 'yam nabhijanati
loko mam ajam avyayam
[Bg. 7.25]
"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yoga-maya. So the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."
Prabhupada: It is explained there. He does not reveal Himself. Why He shall reveal Himself to an unqualified person? That is Krsna's prerogative. If He likes He will reveal. If He does not like He will not reveal. You cannot by force see Krsna. Therefore, first of all be qualified, then try to see Krsna. He is not exposed. Even a big man, if you want to see him, he may refuse: "No, I will not see." What can you do? If you think that "This man is third-class man, why shall I see him?" Even in ordinary human society that is going on. So why people are eager to see Krsna without being qualified? Why these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" First of all you become fit to see God. They'll not become fit. They'll do all nonsense, and want to see God. Krsna is addressed, pavitram paramam bhavan. He is the supreme pure, and we are impure, and you want to see the supreme pure. You see? What audacity! I am not fire. I want to enter into the fire. You see? What will be the result? You'll be burned into ashes. First of all be fire. Increase your temperature to the same temperature, then it will automatically. He is param brahma, so you realize yourself as brahma. You are realizing yourself as American, Indian, this, that, and you want to see param brahma? The foolish people will do. And one has to become purified, sarvopadhi vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. One has to be free from all designations. Everyone, we give more prominence to the designations: "I am this, I am this." So how can you see God like that? First of all you become designationless. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, that "I am not a brahmana, I am not a ksatriya, I am not a vaisya"—everything He denied. So purify yourself and you'll see God. Krsna consciousness means to become purified. That makes you all right. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva [Bs. 5.38]. Sadaiva means always. This is the process. Why these rascals say, "Can you show me God?" What qualification have you got? He doesn't think like that, that "I have no qualification." He thinks that "I am very advanced." That is foolish. Therefore Krsna says, naham prakasah. Similarly a third-class man goes to a high-court judge. Foolish rascals has come. "Who is that?" "I don't know." There was an incident. One big philosopher and one big dramatic player. He was also very famous. So he went to se that philosopher and sent his card. He said, "Oh, why shall I see this dancing dog? He may be famous as a dancing dog, but I have no business with him. If some philosopher comes, then it will be a pleasure to talk with him. What does he know? He may be expert in dancing. It is not philosophy." So he refused to see him. "Why shall I see this dancing dog?" He used these words. "He's a dancing dog" (inaudible). So similarly, why this ordinary man claims to see God? A dancing dog? A devotee says, marma-hatam karotu va. A devotee is always anxious to see God, but he said that "I am not qualified. So even I become broken-hearted not seeing God, still Krsna is my Lord. I may see, or may not see. That is His mercy. But in all circumstances, He is my worshipful Lord." That is devotee. "Oh, I could not see God? I have done so much?" Krsna is not so obliged that because by concoction you think you have done something, and therefore He is obliged to come before you and dance. Krsna is not so little.
Paramahamsa: In this connection you have quoted Lord Brahma, saying that... Lord Brahma says that the great material scientists, they may be able to calculate the atomic structure of the material world and the planetary system, but even if Krsna is standing right in front of them, they can't calculate His potencies.
Prabhupada: Vivekananda liked to say, he challenged Ramakrishna, "Can you show me God?" He said, "Yes," and he showed him God and then he became disciple.
Paramahamsa: They're saying that this Bal Yogeshwara, people ask him "Can you show what is God," and he says, "Oh, yes," then he shows them.
Prabhupada: Where he is now, this Bal Yogeshwara?
Paramahamsa: I don't know where he is. There was one article about him recently, but they didn't say where he was. I think he was rejected. Maybe he is trying to start his own movement. But as far as his Divine Light Mission, he is kicked out.
Prabhupada: Kicked out by whom? By mother.
Paramahamsa: Yes, mother.
Prabhupada: Mother is authority.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Paramahamsa: They say that the main reasons that she gave for kicking him out were that he was going to nightclubs and dancing and drinking and eating meat.
Prabhupada: So he was doing all, everything.
Paramahamsa: Yes. So she said, "Oh, he is not Hindu," according to them.
Prabhupada: Then you cannot be God. (laughter)
Paramahamsa: So she said instead my other son is God. He is very... Also she was a little angry because Guru Maharaj-ji's wife, that American wife that he got, who used to be his secretary—after they were married, in all the temples, their ashrams all over the world, they used to have that Bal Yogeshwara's picture and then his mother's picture. But now they took the mother's picture down and put the wife's picture up. So the mother was very angry. Therefore she kicked them both out, and now her picture and another son is on the altar.
Prabhupada: Another son. So they're accepting.
Paramahamsa: Oh, yes. He was actually popular anyway, the other son. He was almost as popular as Bal Yogeshwara. He's the older son. He's a jazz musician, so they like it.
Prabhupada: Jazz? What is that jazz?
Paramahamsa: American music. Something like rock and roll. It is modern music.
Prabhupada: Hmm. So, how he learned? He is Indian.
Paramahamsa: Well, I don't know, but he's pretty good. His band was very popular in America.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Paramahamsa: They were very popular. THey would travel around and do performances, and thousands of people would come. He had quite a big group of musicians, and he was the leader. He would lead the whole group. He would play the trumpet and sometimes dance.
Prabhupada: Hmm. Then, Ravi Shankar is no more popular?
Paramahamsa: Most people think he's too puffed up.
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise how they say he's God? Then? You can stop. Those who are tired can take rest. What is the local time?
Amogha: 8:30
Prabhupada: 8:30?
Paramahamsa: Usually people don't have a very clear idea of what spiritual life is. So when they see someone who is a good musician or a good artist or something like that, sometimes they automatically think, "Oh, he must be spiritual, because he is so good at this. No one else can do it. He must be some spiritual power." So therefore someone like Ravi Shankar, a lot of people either they become envious or they worship him as being an incarnation or something like that.
Prabhupada: That is also stated, yad yad vibhutimat sattvam.
"Know that all beautiful, glorious, and mighty creations spring from but a spark of My splendor."
Devotees: Hare Krsna. (offer obeisances) (end)

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