May 7, 1975, Perth
Paramahamsa: They can bring a dog if he's on a leash.
Prabhupada: Nobody can. I have seen in Los Angeles. (pause) The water is not very clean. (ducks quacking) We are afraid of water; they're enjoying. (pause) Here we have got gold, copper, somewhere in the mines, but in the sky there are millions of miles land of copper, gold.
Amogha: Do you mean other planets, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes. Big, big planets, millions of miles. (pause)
Amogha: Srila Prabhupada? When a spirit soul first falls from the spiritual sky into the material world, does he first go to the lowest of the 8,400,000 species of life, and then gradually come up, or can he fall to the middle or anywhere?
Prabhupada: According to his desire. In the beginning it is not so fall down.
Srutakirti: In a purport in the Fourth Canto you say that usually they take human forms, because they are desiring to enjoy in that way. And then they begin falling down.
Prabhupada: Yes, the more they enjoy, the more they become entangled. (pause) Does it snow here?
Amogha: No. In the mountains.
Prabhupada: Mountains. (pause) ...it is said that sun is the source of everything within this universe. Maintenance of all living entities. The source within the universe is the sun. Therefore this Gayatri mantra is worshiping the sun, om bhur bhuvah svah tat savitur varenyam bhargo devasya dhimahi.
Prabhupada: Black swans. Bhara nitya bhayamaya. They are also aware how to protect their interest. Every living being knows how to eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend from fear. These trees I find in America. Here, they are scented. What is called, these? Canada.
Ganesa: They look like a maple tree.
Prabhupada: Yes. It is maple tree.
Ganesa: I don't think it's quite the same.
Amogha: No. It's maple tree, but you can't get any maple syrup from this kind. A special kind.
Paramahamsa: They had this tree where I used to live, also. I don't remember the name of it. In California.
Srutakirti: On the airplane coming here they had some article in one of the airline books about eucalyptus trees and how these monks, they make wine out of the eucalyptus. The Trappist monks. Some kind of Trappist monks, they make wine out of the eucalyptus, and they have a big store, and they sell it, in Italy. That's their profession, making different liquors.
Amogha: Recently we have shown the film and spoken in several Catholic schools in Melbourne. They have comparative religion classes, and they ask us to come to their high schools to teach comparative religion so the students can see what other religions think. Usually they...
Prabhupada: There is no other religion. All bogus. Dharmah projjhita-kaitavo. Only religion is to surrender to Krsna. That is religion.
Amogha: They think that if they sin it's all right, because man is imperfect. So they think we should believe in Jesus.
Prabhupada: Every animal is imperfect, but man—animal can become perfect. If he likes. So it is very important life.
Srutakirti: They say it's not possible to become perfect, that that's saying "I can become God."
Srutakirti: They say only God can be perfect, that we cannot become perfect.
Prabhupada: No, you cannot become as perfect as God, but near about.
Amogha: There's a verse in the Bible which says "Only he can sin who has come short of the glory of God." So they say this means if you think you cannot sin, that means that you think you are God. But we say that you can surrender and become perfect.
Prabhupada: If you surrender to God, then you become perfect.
Amogha: They seem to like everything about our philosophy, except when we explain very clearly that everyone is sinning and under the control of lust and that we must become free from lust. Then they become disturbed because they don't know how to do this, and they want to disclaim it. Just when I was saying that in one class, they all understood very clearly by examples that we are all controlled by our senses, and this microphone speaker came on for all classes, interrupting my speech, and a voice announced in the Catholic school, "Would all the students whose parents purchased tickets for the wine-tasting festival tonight please report to the office," and they all began to laugh because they were embarrassed, because they could see that actually they were engaged in sinful activities. They are also very amazed when they see your books. Sometimes we take ten or fifteen books-Bhagavad-gita, and ten Srimad Bhagavatams, Caitanya-caritamrta—and we line them all across the front wall or desk, maybe fifteen books. And I begin by saying, "I'm sorry there's only a few minutes to talk, because our Bible is very big," and then I explain, "This is Bhagavad-gita, and then Srimad-Bhagavatam's sixty volumes. Caitanya-caritamrta-twelve volumes." And they become very much amazed that this is our..., beginning of our Bible. [break] What can we say to Communists to attract them to Krsna consciousness?
Prabhupada: To make their Communist philosophy perfection. That your Communism is not perfect. By Krsna consciousness you can make it perfect. Take for example that you are sympathetic to all living beings that they must eat. But why you are eating animals? They must eat also. Why don't you allow them to eat? That is you defect. We allow everyone to eat. Not only human beings, but also animals, birds, beasts, they should live comfortably and without any disturbance, they must get their food. That is our Communism. But where is your Communism? You are thinking of your countrymen only, or in your country also only for the human being, and you are sending other poor animals, because they cannot protest, to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest to the capitalists when they send you to the slaughterhouse? You are sending these poor animals to the slaughterhouse. So why do you protest? You protest that the capitalist are slaughtering you. So, if you slaughter others, why should you be afraid of being slaughtered yourself? Is it all right?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is imperfect. We are alo Communists, but we are perfect Communists. We are thinking of all living beings.
Ganesa: Some people say that in our philosophy, if we do not wish to slaughter the animals, what about the trees? We are killing the plants. They are also living entities.
Prabhupada: If you compare the animals and the trees as the same, then why not kill yourself, your brother? Why do you distinguish? Why don't you slaughter your own son? Why do you distinguish?
Ganesa: He's a relative.
Prabhupada: You discriminate. If you are slaughtering animals and you are comparing that killing of the vegetables and the killing of the animals is the same, then killing your son and killing an animal is also the same. Why do you discriminate? Just kill your own son and eat.
Paramahamsa: He's a human being, though.
Prabhupada: Ah, therefore there is discrimination. Discrimination is the better part of valor. Whom should we kill? It is all right. Jivo jivasya jivanam. But there is important. If you eat vegetables there is no crisis, you can go on. It is a fact that an animal is eating another animal. It may be vegetables or animals, but they are disturbing. Therefore it is said, "As it is allotted." You should eat such and such. Not that indiscriminately you can eat everything. If you think killing of an animal and killing a vegetable is the same, then killing of your son and killing of animals or vegetable is the same. Why do you discriminate? What is your answer?
Ganesa: So if we discriminate between the animals and the plants, well what about the discrimination between the human beings and the animals? Is it not all right to kill animals and not human beings?
Prabhupada: No. You discriminate actually. You do not kill human beings, but you kill animals. Similarly you discriminate: instead of killing animals, kill vegetables. Importance. Just like this grass. There is enough supply of grass, but you cannot have enough supply of cows. Therefore discrimination is that it is better to live on grass than on animals. Now, still they are eating seventy-five percent other than animals. They are not eating only animals. Why not twenty-five percent more? In the market they are not eating animal. When the animal-eaters I see, they have got a little flesh, surrounded by salad and these peas and so many other things. Why don't you eat only meat?
Srutakirti: Because we require a balanced diet.
Prabhupada: No, you cannot supply. If everyone eats meat only, then one day all animals will be finished.
Paramahamsa: But we want to have a balanced diet with meat, and vegetables and fruit.
Prabhupada: That balance of diet can be done by grains and vegetables. Why should we kill animals? We know that, the balance can be done. You learn from us that balanced food can be done.
Amogha: But in the Bible it says that God gave animals to the man.
Prabhupada: For protection. Not for eating. Rascals. Bible does not say that you kill animals. Then Jesus Christ is a hypocrite. His commandment is, "Thou shalt not kill." If he allows killing, then why does he say, "Thou shalt not kill"? Then you prove that Jesus Christ is a hypocrite. Are you following a hypocrite? Nonsense.
Paramahamsa: So we understand. We will stop eating meat, but we can still eat fish and eggs. Because there are plenty of fish and plenty of eggs.
Prabhupada: That is also better than killing animals.
Amogha: Jesus also gave fish to the people in one part of the Bible.
Prabhupada: When there is no other food, you have to take anything. That is another thing. But when there are other foods, grains and vegetables, why should you eat anything? You have to eat and live. So if you can eat and live innocently, why should you kill? Then, Christ says "Thou shall not kill." Was he a fool, rascal, that he advised "Thou shall not kill"? He had no idea?
Srutakirti: But he meant kill other people.
Prabhupada: No. That is your interpretation, rascal's interpretation.
Amogha: All the priests say that.
Prabhupada: He says clearly, "Thou shall not kill." And when I cut grass, it is not called killing. You should know dictionary. Because you are uneducated, you do not know the meaning of the dictionary.
Srutakirti: But I'm just a common Christian. I'm following my authority. They say it's all right. The Pope.
Paramahamsa: He's the supreme authority. The Pope is eating meat.
Prabhupada: That means from the supreme down to the rascal everyone is rascal. That proves it, that all of you are a set of rascaldom.
Paramahamsa: But the government doesn't charge anyone with crime for killing an animal.
Prabhupada: Government means they are full of rascals. Government by the people. So you are all rascals, the government is also rascal. Your democracy means government by the people for the people. So all the people are rascals, beginning from the Pope down to the common man. Therefore the government is rascal.
Paramahamsa: But not all of us are Christians. Some of us are Muslims, and in the Koran Mohammed says that eating meat is all right. In fact it is required to be a good Muslim, to eat meat.
Prabhupada: They spoke in the desert. What will they eat? But you are not in the desert. Meat-eating is a crude form of eating when people are uncivilized. When there is no other food, you cannot produce. But when you are civilized, when you learn how to produce other foods, why would you eat meat? How are you civilized?
Amogha: Srila Prabhupada, in Sikhism there was Guru Nanak and Guru Granth Sahib. Is that actually a real scripture, and was Guru Nanak actually a devotee? Or is that not correct?
Prabhupada: They created a system of religion which can include Hindus and Muslim. That was at the time needed. But that is not a good system of religion.
Paramahamsa: You mean a compromise between the two.
Prabhupada: Compromise, yes. There was too much strain between Hindus and Muslims, so he wanted to make a compromise. Actually there was only Vedic culture all over the world. As the things deteriorated, new systems of religion came in. Either the Sikh religion or the Christian or this religion, Muslim religion. They are, what is called, deformed type of religion. Religion is that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. That is religion. These are later on deformed.
Ganesa: So is that according to time, place and circumstance we must discriminate in our eating?
Ganesa: According to time, place and circumstance we must discriminate whether to eat meat, whether to eat the vegetables?
Prabhupada: Yes, you must eat. But when good things are available, why should you eat bad things? You must be pacified.
Amogha: Was there a story? The Hindus always tell this story about I think Visvamitra Rsi eating a dog or something?
Prabhupada: Sometimes. There was no food.
Amogha: They like that story. What about in the Buddhist philosophy; we understand that...
Prabhupada: No killing.
Paramahamsa: ...in the higher stage...
Prabhupada: No killing.
Amogha: Yes, but the Buddhist monks, when they beg, they simply accept whatever alms they receive, and if they receive meat then they'll eat that, and if they receive some raw grains then they eat that. Actually that is a higher state of renunciation.
Paramahamsa: And if they receive some cigarettes they'll smoke them.
Amogha: Yes, and if they receive-they'll take anything, they are so renounced. So isn't that more spiritual?
Prabhupada: They have no idea what is spiritual. Buddhist religion is not a spiritual. It is material. If you kill me then I feel pain; therefore I shall not kill you. This is.
Amogha: Recently we received a letter from a Chinese man in Singapore. He wants all of your books. He wants to know how much.
Prabhupada: Oh? You have supplied?
Amogha: Well I just received it. I will answer him and tell him the cost. I will supply him, yes.
Prabhupada: Chinese man from?
Amogha: That is the country that doesn't like us to come in. Just below Malaysia.
Prabhupada: In the beginning don't talk of these details, just try to convince about the philosophy. What is the nature of God? What is your nature? How we are related, like that.
Paramahamsa: By details do you mean the rules and regulations?
Prabhupada: No, that is not in the beginning. In the beginning one must know that he is not this body. He is spirit soul. Don't bring in controversy, but try to convince that you are not this body. Then, gradually. That is the mode of teaching in the Bhagavad-gita.
Paramahamsa: As they become more interested they ask automatically how they can make advancement.
Prabhupada: If they understand that "I am spirit soul" then he'll advance. Then you can say. The chanting is required.
Amogha: Everyone likes prasadam. In these high schools we take mangala aratika burfi and they love it. Sometimes the Catholic sisters and nuns come up afterwards and say, "How do you make this? What is the recipe?" (end)