December 19, 1975, Bombay
Prabhupada: What is platform?
Saurabha: Casting of slabs and footings. [break]
Prabhupada: ...every day I don't think.
Dr. Patel: They eat anything but, sir.
Prabhupada: That is another thing.
Dr. Patel: So they get their food all right. They may not get our food every day, but their food they get.
Prabhupada: No.... They eat meat, they don't get...
Dr. Patel: They eat even stool. Just like hogs.
Prabhupada: That also a human being does. You know in concentration camp in second war they had to eat their stool.
Dr. Patel: But the British army had a regulation that they could drink urine but not stool. They cannot eat.
Prabhupada: You may make regulation, but necessity has no regulation.
Dr. Patel: I.... because I happen to be.... I, I was holding the honorary position of a colonel in the army...
Prabhupada: Just see, "I am making law: you can drink urine." Just see what is the position. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: In difficulty if there is no water, you can drink your own urine, but you cannot eat your stool. It is very difficult.
Prabhupada: If I drink urine, still I will have to be punished. By the law. I'm drinking urine, and because I have violated law, I will have to be punished. This is God.
Dr. Patel: There is, sir, one matter in Ayurvedas, svayambu cikitsa, wherein people are drinking their own urine, because urine is not only water and waste products but there are certain broken, I mean what you call important articles, of body maintainence.
Prabhupada: So those.... You are advising your patients to go and drink...?
Dr. Patel: No, I don't say. But that is not so bad, because it contains those hormones.... (Prabhupada breaks in laughing) It does contain the hormones, I mean it has been analyzed like that, scientifically. It is not to be joked about.
Prabhupada: No. It is analyzed. And stool is full of hydrophosphites. Yes, that is another.... Stool is full of hydrophosphites.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi to another man) They are bringing.... There is a matter in cikitsa in Ayurveda. Svayambu. What is that called? So, Mr.... our er, Mr. Desai. Morarji...
Prabhupada: He is drinking?
Dr. Patel: ...who lost his premiership of India, he is drinking his own urine.
Man: (indistinct) also.
Dr. Patel: Yes. He is drinking.
Prabhupada: Accha. Why?
Dr. Patel: And look at him. He's so, I mean, so absolutely healthy. I mean it is, we should not laugh about it, but there is something right in it.
Prabhupada: No, no. I don't laugh; I am surprised! (devotees laugh)
Dr. Patel: No, we are surprised. I also, I also was surprised first, but then it is not so.
Dr. Patel: Janice. Jani! (calling to passing man) His mother was so much great devotee, she died only at the age of ninety-eight years. When she was...
Dr. Patel: His mother. She was dying, and she said, "I don't want to see anybody; bring only Krsna's photo before me." (Hindi to other man) No, no. His mother-Mr. Jani's. And then looking at the photograph of Krsna, she breathed her last.
Prabhupada: I saw in Delhi one old man, just a few minutes before his death he asked his son to bring Radha-Krsna picture, and it was put before him, and he died.
Dr. Patel: And my father died saying om tat sat sri-krsnaya namah, and then he stopped it, breathing, in the morning at six o'clock.
Man: Morning, that is very good.
Dr. Patel: Yes, six o'clock. And my wife was daily saying bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam before she died.
Prabhupada: Hm. (to devotees) Just see: govindam.
Dr. Patel: Hm. That bhaja govindam she was very fond of. Sankaracarya's bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam... When I used to talk about Sanskrit literature, she said "Why do I want to know grammar? Bhaja govindam is all right for me." She said. Hm? ...Stubhyam bhagavate vasudevaya I don't know how many thousands of times, for the whole day.
Dr. Patel: My father never did any work in all his life. Never. He had some estate, and then he lost it also. We are big zamindars, and he lost all the land and property in various forms of business. And after that he only was sitting in the temple all the day and saying hari-nama. All his life, from the age of forty years till he died at age of eighty, he did that. My mother died when he was thirty-two years.
Dr. Patel: Very early. And he never married again, and I was the only son and no other daughter or son. Many people requested him to marry, but he said no, he would not marry, because one son is sufficient.
Dr. Patel: I was five years old when my mother died. In that big, pandemic of influenza in 1918, that..., that...
Prabhupada: Yes, war influenza, after war.
Dr. Patel: After war. The whole world was (indistinct). [break] What you do for the...
Prabhupada: He did not remember God, he remembered his son. But God is so kind, because he uttered God's name, He took it seriously.
Dr. Patel: That Mr. Shah had gone to the States and came back from there, some three months back, and he praised the Americans, that no man on Sunday is in the street. All of them are in the churches, and you hear on the radio only those hymns. Is it a fact?
Prabhupada: He is American. (indicates Harikesa)
Harikesa: Yes, but nobody listens to the radio.
Dr. Patel: He says that at least government does it. Here government is giving all the cinema. And there the churches are overflowing.
Prabhupada: In London I have seen almost all the churches are vacant.
Dr. Patel: On Sundays? I don't know now. When I was a student I used to see them full, overflowing practically. Because they were beaten down by war very recently, they did not forget God then.
Harikesa: On Sundays they're pretty full. For a couple of hours they're pretty full.
Dr. Patel: In the morning.
Harikesa: Then in the afternoon they're vacant. That's when they get their big collection, big collection on Sunday.
Dr. Patel: Sir, everywhere it is the church which has actually distorted the message.
Dr. Patel: It is the church which has distorted the message. You see the Christ's message is distorted by the church; our Krsna's message is distorted by our temples, sort of a thing.
Prabhupada: Why temples? Even your big, big political leaders, they distort. By do you blame the temples?
Dr. Patel: But Christianity is distorted by the...
Prabhupada: Everyone. That is going on.
Dr. Patel: ...those popes. However, Christ taught bhagavata-dharma, absolute bhagavata-dharma. It is this creation of the church, really to my mind, that the Christ is forgotten by the Western countries.
Prabhupada: And who is remembering your Krsna in this country?
Dr. Patel: There are a few people. I, we are not that...
Prabhupada: In Bombay, there are so many roads, "Vivekananda road." But there is no Krsna Road. Hm? Who is remembering Krsna?
Dr. Patel: There is Krsna Art Gallery, in market. Krsna Art Gallery. (laughing) (Hindi conversation with man about Krsna's name) Ajamila spoke "Narayana." You may speak in the name of your father, that his called name. Heh?
Prabhupada: That is a chance; that is not...
Man: In Air India plane.
Prabhupada: That is sense enjoyment. Only Radharani and Krsna. And when Krsna is killing Kamsa, that picture is.... Killing Kamsa, that picture you won't find. Krsna is embracing gopis, "Ah, that is very nice!" (laughter) Because "We are doing the same thing, we are following Krsna." That is their purpose. They are very much fond of Krsna's mixing with the gopis because they get a support, that "What we are doing..."
Dr. Patel: "We are following Krsna!"
Prabhupada: Yes. These rascals, they have taken...
Indian man: But this, sir...
Prabhupada: They will never paint any picture of Krsna is killing Putana, Aghasura, Bakasura, Kamsa—so many killing process from the very childhood. That picture you won't find. Because he knows he is Aghasura. He'll be killed. (laughing)
Dr. Patel: We see pictures of Giridhari, like that. Now we see even Giridhari picture. Sir, it is the education. The disturb the education of this country after Neccola (?). That is the cause of it.
Prabhupada: Nah, Necolla(?) has gone long, long ago. What you are doing now?
Dr. Patel: Necolla(?) have made it sir.
Prabhupada: You can change it. That Necolla(?) has conquered you.
Dr. Patel: That's right. They did conquer us. These priests even are not tending even the system of education.
Sravanananda: At the Ramakrishna Mission school in Madras near a football field, there is one slogan on the arch that says, "The playing of football will bring one closer to heaven than the study of the Gita."
Prabhupada: Just see. Has Neccolla(?) carved this?
Sravanananda: He said, "Tear up all the big tulasis..."
Dr. Patel: Is it a fact? We don't know.
Prabhupada: It is a fact if he says.
Sravanananda: Yes. It is written right there, it's written right there. They say the playing of football will bring one closer to heaven than the study of the Gita.
Prabhupada: Yes, Vivekananda taught this.
Sravanananda: He said "Pull out the tulasi and plant brinjal."
Prabhupada: Yes, he advised, better water what is called, eggplant tree, than tulasi tree. It will bring some fruit. What is the use of watering tulasi tree?
Dr. Patel: Tulasi has got great medicinal properties.
Prabhupada: That he is not even prepared to...
Dr. Patel: He must not be knowing. Those rascals.
Prabhupada: And "Why you are searching out God here and there? There are so many Gods loitering in the street." This is the Vivekananda's statement. And therefore everyone is God. Everyone is thinking, "I am God." This is going on.
Sravanananda: When we went to try to arrange a lecture at their football field for a pandal program, they said all the people coming would ruin the turf for cricket season. So they didn't have time for spiritual training, they said, only for the physical training. It caused too much damage on the field.
Dr. Patel: In my school, sir, where I was educated, in the entrance there is a statue of Sarasvati, and nearby there is a photograph of Krsna. I don't know how it came, that one.
Dr. Patel: All are not like that. In my school where I was educated, secondary school, in the entrance there was a statue of Sarasvati, and near that was Krsna's photo. (pause) (someone shouts Hare Krsna)
Prabhupada: In good health.
Dr. Patel: He always runs like this. All the time. He is so much frightened of his wife in the house that he cannot speak a word. Still he is in the house. That is why he makes good of the things when he comes out. (laughs) He behaves so naughtily like that. (Hindi with one man) Sir, shall we go this way, if you don't mind?
Prabhupada: That Mr. Punja is staying? From Fiji? He has not come?
Devotee: Oh, no, he hasn't come back yet. He had two days' business, he said. He said he would come after that. [break]
Prabhupada: ...doing there, these slums?
Dr. Patel: This was, they wanted to, er, have a officer of customs. The public, I mean, objected to, because they are imposing upon them, the way of the public walking. So they stopped it, but they are not taking away all these walls. Otherwise where the poor fellows will make the hutments?
Prabhupada: That is what they are doing.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) The municipality has no objection. (Hindi with other man) Therefore Gandhi says that he does not give away these poor people...
Prabhupada: Then why they are in the hands of the empire lost? Why they lost their empire?
Dr. Patel: Because they were shortsighted.
Prabhupada: But how they knew?
Dr. Patel: But they knew how to govern.
Prabhupada: No, this is not government, if you lose after all. What is this government? You must govern in such a way that you will never lose it.
Dr. Patel: Well, sir, we also had an empire, India, and we have lost it, haven't we? And we, all the eastern country, Malaya, Java, Sumatra, and all those things. Why we lost it? Kalena!
Prabhupada: Kalena of course. So when you lose your culture, then you lose everything.
Dr. Patel: That's right. Because they did not see with the same eye all people. They were the rascals. (indistinct) ...a very good race. After all, we are Aryans.
Prabhupada: Aryans means to follow Vedic instructions.
Dr. Patel: They have forgotten.
Prabhupada: That is Aryans. So they are now the same thing. A person born in a brahmana family, he is claiming "I am brahmana." Similarly, even though born in Aryan family, without any culture they are claiming "I am Aryan." Krsna observed it in Arjuna, and therefore He chastised him, "This kind of proposal is anarya-justam. Under the non-Aryans, you're forgetting your duty." That is the beginning of loss of culture. A small beginning, it creates havoc. Krsna warned this, anarya-justam. Ksatriya's description is given in the Bhagavata: yuddhe capy apalayanam, not to go behind. They must fight. That is Aryan culture.
Dr. Patel: They are doing strategical fight. Strategically great. They should not repeat, but our army is doing strategical fight.
Prabhupada: There is a Bengali saying-palabanata boineki(?): "Am I afraid of you, that I shall not go away?"
Dr. Patel: (laughing) I understand.
Prabhupada: "I must go away. That is my independence!"
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: That yuddhe must be also religious. Not...
Prabhupada: Yuddha... Everything must be religious. Why yuddha? Your ordinary living must be also religious. Otherwise animal. Animal also lives. But if you don't live religiously, that is animal. Dharmena hena pasave sa. If you live like animal, then you are animal. If you live like human being, that human being means dharma. We cannot expect any dharma in the animal society. It is meant for the humans. (someone gives Prabhupada something) Hm, thank you. Canakya Pandita says that a flower without smell and a man without education—the same thing. A flower without smell, similarly, a man without education.
Dr. Patel: Sir, what is the distinction between a culture and an education?
Prabhupada: Culture means human being.
Dr. Patel: Human...?
Prabhupada: Human being. Just like Canakya Pandita says, matrvat para-daresu. This is culture to see every woman as mother. This is not education. Education, the modern meaning of education is rubbish, to learn ABCD. This is not education. Without culture, what is the meaning of education?
Dr. Patel: So culture is the background for all these things.
Prabhupada: Yes. Education is required to help culture. Not that you take degrees from the university and remain a dog. That is not education. Here is education, as Canakya Pandita says:
Here is a description of pandita: first of all learn how to see other woman as your mother. There the culture begins. And they are, from the very beginning of the school college life, they are learning how to entice one girl. This is education.
Dr. Patel: They are following the so-called advanced countries.
Prabhupada: Advanced means Freud's philosophy.
Dr. Patel: So-called advancement.
Prabhupada: Sex philosophy. This is their education. So how you can expect gentlemen? It is not possible. From the very beginning there is no culture, animal culture. Just like dogs, as soon as he finds another female dog, he wants to have sex. This is education.
Dr. Patel: One friend of mine he told me that this culture is vultures' culture. They eat anything and everything.
Prabhupada: Yes. Not vultures. It is called hog civilization. The hog, they eat anything and they have sex with anyone.
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes. These animals they don't distinguish between their own bodily relatives.
Prabhupada: Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam ye [SB 5.5.1]. This is instruction. Where is culture? Culture is lost. So therefore there is no value of education. And besides that, education means spiritual education. Brahma-vidya. This education how to make aeroplane or a nice bridge or a machine, this is called kala-vidya. This is not vidya.
Prabhupada: No, kala.... Kala means artistic. Suppose a carpenter, he knows how to make a very nice, good furniture, does it mean that he is educated? He knows the art, some artistic way, that's all; but he is not educated. But nowadays it is going on that if you know some art, technology, then you are educated. This is not education. Education means culture.
Dr. Patel: Yes. And culture means...
Prabhupada: Culture means human life. Otherwise dog's life. There is.... Adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir arjavam. Everything is described. Amanitvam: first of all you have to learn how to become humble. And here all the people, they are educated how to become proud. What is education?
Dr. Patel: Christ says, sir, the meek and humble shall inherit this earth. They unfortunately, the followers of Christ are not meek and humble.
Prabhupada: And this culture cannot be maintained unless one is God conscious. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna [SB 5.18.12]. There cannot be any culture for a godless person. That is not possible. And, yasyasti-bhaktir bhagavaty-akincana. Just like this European and American boy is offering obeisances to the guru, this is culture. Why he has learned this culture? Because he has become Krsna conscious. Therefore yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana, sarvair gunais tatra samasate surah. If you make one devotee of Krsna, then all culture will automatically come. One thing. (aside:) Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: So all devotees are cultured?
Prabhupada: Yes. Theirs is really culture. Prahlada Maharaja says, tam manye' dhitam uttamam, sravanam kirtanam visnu-smaranam pada-sevanam arcanam. Tam manye' dhityam uttamam, he is first-class educated. This is recommendation by Prahlada Maharaja. And Krsna says, "If one is not God-conscious: duskrtino, mudha, naradhama, mayayapahrta-jnana." Where is their qualification? Duskrtina, mudha. Where is culture? Suppose you steal by tricks, by, I mean to say, by legal tricks, does it mean it is culture? But that is going on.
Dr. Patel: That means, sir, isavasyam idam sarvam, yat kincid jagatyam jagat, tena tyaktena bhunjitha [Iso mantra 1]. That should be the background of all the governments.
Prabhupada: That is bhagavad-bhakti... (end)