Morning Walk – March 23, 1974, Bombay
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740323MW.BOM
Morning Walk
- March 23, 1974, Bombay 740323MW-BOMBAY [45:33 Minutes]
He was thinking of Krsna, but still, he's not a devotee
Prabhupada: The point is that these daityas are elected by the daityas.
Dr. Patel: Now, sometimes even they were liked, the daityas. When they have the samudra-mathana, even the devas went to the daityas to help them. So it is... I mean, that is not so. We have to take the help of daityas for a good work. But they are frustrating us. How is the argument? All right?
Prabhupada: No. Because there are no more available devas, therefore daityas are the only...
Dr. Patel: We are like that. These rascals, you see, they have got no sense of proportion. There are two dozen mosques come up in this area without any reason in any way. And they are upset when there is construction of a Hindu temple. They are majority. So they are daityas. [break]
Prabhupada: ...required. They, they, they required. We are...
Dr. Patel: They are thinking themselves to be qualified.
Prabhupada: We are... We are...
Dr. Patel: What do... They are getting qualified every day by madira. And what other things which I don't want to talk to you. [laughs]
Prabhupada: So when it is mixed, it is called varna-sahkara. [laughter]
Dr. Patel: Well, the varna-sahkaras are more strong today than the pure sahkaras. [break]
Prabhupada: ...question, I shall try to answer.
Trivikrama: Give you a question?
Prabhupada: Hmm.
Dr. Patel: Yeah. I have taken out a sloka from Bhagavad-gita for you. And my friends always tells me not to put it before you, because it will create a sort of a hot discussion. But I am going to put it.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Dr. Patel: It is this... Ye 'py... [aside:] Bolo.
Indian man (2): Ye 'py anya... [break]
Dr. Patel: ...mam. Ye 'py anya-devata...
Indian man (2): Bhaktaḥ.
Dr. Patel: Ye 'pi bhaktaḥ. Nei. Bhajante, sraddhayanvitaḥ, te 'pi mam eva bhajante, te 'pi mam eva kaunteya yajanty avidhi-pūrvakam [Bg 9.23]. They are also bhajanti, avidhi-pūrvakam. I mean, no doubt, they also, all, all who worship go to Krsna's feet.
Prabhupada: Just like..., just like if you want to give me some food to eat, so you should give me to my mouth, not to my rectum. [laughter]
Dr. Patel: But they are doing it now. We are giving enema. We treat with enema in America. You see? [laughs] He said, he said that don't give these things to him because there will be plenty of argument...
Prabhupada: No, no. That is, this is the reason: to give one food, there is the only one mouth. You cannot say, "Because there are so many holes, any hole."
Dr. Patel: But that is not the real..., I mean, real argument that you give...
Prabhupada: No, no, that's right.
Dr. Patel: But my question is...
Prabhupada: Avidhi-pūrvakam.
Dr. Patel: No, but they're...
Prabhupada: That is avidhi-pūrvakam.
Dr. Patel: Avidhi-pūrvakam. But also, still, they are worshiping God.
Prabhupada: No, no. Everyone is part and parcel of God, but everyone is not God. That is the way. That any hole of my body, that is my body. But when food is to be taken, it is only this, not another, other hole. That is the way. [break] ...and if you are saying like that... Just like... Here... When you...
Dr. Patel: But it is of the..., is doing that to you also. Why do you worry about it?
Prabhupada: No, no. When the...
Dr. Patel: We can give it in the vein also.
Prabhupada: No, no. [laughter] That is not the way. That is avidhi-pūrvakam.
Dr. Patel: But... Listen. That is why I say, disease or no disease, vidhi's going to help your body and bring you nutrients, even given by intravenously or by rectum or by mouth. By any way.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: But they are going to... He's going to...
Prabhupada: This is... This is for the nonsense. You see?
Dr. Patel: Having the... Why nonsense now?
Prabhupada: No, no. If the way is this, that food should be taken within the mouth...
Dr. Patel: But this is also... This is what is said by Krsna, by Himself in Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Avidhi-pūrvakam. Everything is seva, but avidhi-pūrvakam.
Dr. Patel: It may be seva, but...
Prabhupada: Just like Kamsa. Kamsa was thinking of Krsna always, but he's not a devotee. Avidhi-pūrvakam. No, that...
Dr. Patel: But he was not a bhakta. He was an enemy.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. Therefore... He was thinking of Krsna, but still, he's not a devotee.
Dr. Patel: But here is the question of devotee: ye 'py anya-devata-bhaktaḥ bhajante mam avidhi-pūrvakam. Devata-bhaktaḥ. They are bhaktas, not enemies.
Prabhupada: No, no. Bhakta... One who worships God, he's a bhakta. Just like sometimes you have to go to the chief minister through his caparasi. But the caparasi is not the chief minister.
Dr. Patel: That's right. But a chief minister gets pleased through the caparasi. All right. [laughs]
Prabhupada: But if you, if you say...
Dr. Patel: Not my argument it is, eh? This is the argument.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is wrong argument. You see... Just like our Hadaji Batlal[?], he was...
Dr. Patel: Now, how would it be wrong argument, sir? We are following the same process. We collected those foodstuffs... [break]
Prabhupada: ...commissioner is not the politician. Why do you mix them?
Dr. Patel: But Krsna was never a politician. He was a...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. This is a wrong theory. This is a wrong theory. You can approach somebody through somebody, but they are two, individual persons. [break] ...he is bhakta, yes.
Dr. Patel: "I am enjoyer of all the yajnas to whom, whatever and to whomever you are being." How would you accept that...
Prabhupada: No, no. The king... The king is the proprietor of all taxes. But he's not a tax collector.
Dr. Patel: Now, now, Chandobhai, come here.
Prabhupada: The king...
Indian man (3): What do you want?
Prabhupada: ...is the proprietor...
Dr. Patel: Aham hi sarva-bhoktanam bhakto mam paramesvaram.
Prabhupada: Just like the king, and there are many tax collectors. So tax goes to the king.
Indian man (3): Yes, king, yes.
Prabhupada: It does not belong to the tax collectors.
Indian man (3): Correct.
Indian man (3): Correct. [break]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (3): So you transcend them.
Prabhupada: "Everything, everything is connected with Me, but I am not that." That is...
Indian man (3): Much more than that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Mattaḥ sarva-bhūtani, mat-sthaniti.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Indian man (3): He's much more than that.
Prabhupada: Nobody can exist without Krsna. But that does not mean everybody's Krsna.
Dr. Patel: But there is nobody other than Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: Excepting the jivas, as you say.
Dr. Patel: No, as I am reading the Bhagavata today, everything is emanating from Krsna. Even your jivas are part and parcel of Visnu's...
Prabhupada: Yes, that doesn't mean Krsna is jiva.
Dr. Patel: But he's evolved from everything, and nothing can exist without Krsna.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That's all right.
Dr. Patel: If that is the real thing, then, I mean, any, any other deva being worshiped as good as...
Prabhupada: Just like everything is material energy, but that does not mean this land is the sea. That is nonsense. That is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: At the end land is sea. No, no, it is not...
Prabhupada: Everything is material. Everything is material. If you say, "Then the land and the sea is the same"...
Dr. Patel: Yes!
Prabhupada: ...that is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: It is not nonsense, and I'll...
Prabhupada: Yes, it is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: I am giving you the argument.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. It is nonsense.
Bhagavata: Stool and sweet rice is the same.
Dr. Patel: As you are scientist, I'll tell you.
Prabhupada: No, no. Scientist...
Dr. Patel: Please...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. I cannot hear this nonsense.
Dr. Patel: If you don't hear, then there will be no...
Prabhupada: No, no! No, no! There cannot be. If you say the sea and the land is the same, this is completely nonsense.
Dr. Patel: Nonsense in this present circumstances. You change the circumstances.
Prabhupada: Any circumstances. Any circumstances.
Dr. Patel: Other circumstances.
Prabhupada: Any circumstances. You cannot say... We say that this is matter. But you cannot say that land is water, water is land. You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: Would you please give me a hearing...
Prabhupada: No, no, everything is matter, that is all right.
Dr. Patel: That's right. That is what I want to say.
Prabhupada: No, that I admit. That I admit. That is the difficulty of the Mayavadis. They cannot distinguish the varieties.
Dr. Patel: Goes on, goes on, goes on.
Indian man (3): Land is the whole Brahman.
Prabhupada: Yes. The Mayavadi...
Dr. Patel: Whenever it is, a question of matter is evolved from maya. So we are Mayavadis, all of you, you and me.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Dr. Patel: Yes, because we are talking of maya.
Prabhupada: No, no. Maya means sakti. Maya means sakti. Maya means sakti.
Dr. Patel: That's it. Then sakti's of God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Nothing can happen without the sakti. Nothing can happen without the energy.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but the...
Dr. Patel: You cannot move your finger...
Prabhupada: But you cannot avoid the varieties.
Dr. Patel: But variety is produced by...
Prabhupada: Just like in your body, this is your head, this is your hand. Everything is body. But if you say, "Everything is body," what is this nonsense?
Dr. Patel: How can it be nonsense?
Prabhupada: Ah! It is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: That particular...
Prabhupada: Why there is separate name, "This is head," "This is hand," "This is leg"?
Dr. Patel: When this thing, whole body, was in the embryo...
Prabhupada: Then it is called "unity in varieties." That is called.
Dr. Patel: And I will... Shall I speak?
Prabhupada: Yes. But you cannot say the head and the leg is the same.
Dr. Patel: Let me talk now.
Prabhupada: You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: Shall I talk it now?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: When this body was being manufactured in the embryo, in the womb...
Prabhupada: No, I know that you don't require this. I know that.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is matter. But it becomes varieties.
Dr. Patel: It was not matter to anyone.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That was also inside.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: In the seed there is the whole banyan tree.
Prabhupada: Yes, matter... They manifested into varieties. First of all, they, after sex intercourse, the two seminas is emulsified, and it becomes like a pea. And it develops into different parts of the body.
Dr. Patel: Right, but I, what I am coming to this point is that...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: ...even in Upanisad, from a small seed, big banyan tree has come out. [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: And that...
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: So seed is the real thing. And that seed is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So everything is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Again, everything is Krsna. Again same nonsense, same nonsense. [laughs] Krsna says, "I am not that." Mat-sthani sarva-bhūtani naham tesv avasthitaḥ [Bg 9.4].
Dr. Patel: Na tu mat-sthani bhūtani pasya me, uh, aisvaram.
Prabhupada: Yes. So there is varieties.
Dr. Patel: But in the second... That is...
Prabhupada: So there is...
Dr. Patel: ...correction in the second sloka only.
Prabhupada: No, no. It is not correction. It is correction because we fools, we cannot understand Him as clearly. "So although everything is existing in Me, I am not everything."
Dr. Patel: "Still, everything existing in Me." But...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: What is that?
Indian man (3): Aham yogam aisvaram.
Dr. Patel: Yogam aisvaram.
Prabhupada: Just like in this hotel: there are so many furnitures, so many rooms. So if you say, "Everything is hotel," what is this nonsense?
Dr. Patel: Ah, but without furniture hotel cannot be. Without building, hotel cannot be. Without this...
Prabhupada: But why do you say, "It is furniture"?
Dr. Patel: ...parts, all this, the body cannot be.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is means less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: That is what I am...
Prabhupada: Yes
Dr. Patel: I want to correct my intelligence.
Prabhupada: If you say the furniture is hotel, that means less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Ah, but then you take out the furniture, hotel will not be there.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but you cannot say the furniture is the hotel.
Dr. Patel: I am arguing like a bauddha.
Prabhupada: You cannot say that.
Dr. Patel: But then, that is also an argument.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense argument, "Hotel is furniture."
Dr. Patel: Yes, it is.
Devotee: Buddha purposely made those... [break]
Prabhupada: You cannot say, "Everything is hotel." "The furniture is hotel, the man is hotel, the food is hotel." What is this? There must be varieties.
Dr. Patel: So you have gone on the top of the tree. We are trying to be from the root.
Prabhupada: [chuckles] But you do not know how the root is manifested. Therefore you are less intelligent.
Dr. Patel: I am very less intelligent. I have no intelligence.
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: The root is manifested from the seed.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That everyone knows.
Dr. Patel: And that we are going to the seed...
Prabhupada: But you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: ...and not to the top of the tree.
Prabhupada: You cannot say, when the tree is grown, you cannot say, "The leaf is also root. The fruit is also root. The trunk is also root." This is nonsense.
Dr. Patel: This is what the Vedas...
Prabhupada: No, no. That, Vedas does not say. Veda is not so nonsense.
Dr. Patel: Then it is [indistinct] very differently I understand it.
Prabhupada: No, no. How you can say everything is the sa...? There is varieties. This is called acintya-bhedabheda-tattva philosophy. Simultaneously one and different. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy. Acintya-bhedabheda,
simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: That is a philosophy.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like my the same example: the water is matter, and this is also matter. As matter, they're one, but as water, it is different; as land, it is different. This is simultaneously one and different.
Dr. Patel: Bheda?
Indian man (3): Bheda abheda. [break]
Prabhupada: [laughs] ...thinking abheda. You are simply thinking that... That is your deficiency.
Dr. Patel: No, no. I will try to understand your bheda also. But abheda is more important for the present for me.
Prabhupada: No. That means you are less.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind become the least. Why less?
Prabhupada: But you should come to this, that there is, in the bheda, abheda, there is bhedas. In the abheda... It is very simple thing, that my hand is not different from my body, but still, hand is not body. It is... A child can understand.
Dr. Patel: But when the child grows, he does not understand it. That is the misfortune of this.
Prabhupada: That is...
Dr. Patel: Mayavada. Mayavada, no?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is Mayavada. [chuckles] Acintya-bheda... This is right philosophy. Acintya-bhedabheda. At the present moment we cannot think of how one thing is simultaneously one and different. Therefore it is acintya.
Dr. Patel: [Gujarati] [break]
Prabhupada: ...to eleven. Why not give me?
Dr. Patel: No, I have given all contribution. And we start with you when you are here.
Prabhupada: Then Bhagavata is compared with the body of Krsna. And Krsna worships begins from the feet.
Dr. Patel: I started and come up to His mouth.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is avidhi-pūrvakam.
Dr. Patel: Avidhi... Then let me do it for avidhi-pūrvaka, then I'll do it, vidhi-pūrvakam.
Prabhupada: Then you'll never understand. Yes, you'll never understand.
Bhagavata: Like you were saying last night, Prabhupada... [break]
Prabhupada: Mayavadam asac-chastram pracchannam bauddham ucyate. Pracchannam bauddham ucyate [Padma Purana].
Dr. Patel: You call pracchanna, but I am open bauddha now, today, for the sake of argument. Let me understand it. There are various ways you can argue about the thing. God cannot be approached by argument...
Prabhupada: No, no. Your difficulty is you are not submissive. Therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: No, I am... I am actually submissive.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, no, no.
Dr. Patel: But I want to... I cannot submit without understanding.
Prabhupada: But you...
Dr. Patel: That is what I was taught in my school.
Prabhupada: But you should not... Because you do not submit, therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: No, I cannot submit till I understand.
Dr. Patel: I am always doing pranipata.
Indian man (3): Jnaninas tattva-darsinaḥ.
Prabhupada: Ah!
Dr. Patel: I am doing pranipata to you. Do you think I am disrespecting you? If you take, then you pardon me.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. It is not the question of disrespecting, but that is not full surrender. You think that you know better than me.
Dr. Patel: I don't think so.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: No, no, that is wrong.
Prabhupada: Therefore you talk of all this...
Dr. Patel: No, no. If you go on with that, I will not talk from tomorrow.
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: I want to learn myself.
Prabhupada: But that will be very good. If you don't talk, simply hear, it will be beneficial.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Now you don't talk then. When I say... When I try to hear...
Prabhupada: [chuckling] No, no. I say you, you simply hear. Don't talk.
Dr. Patel: All right. Accha.
Prabhupada: Then you'll understand.
Dr. Patel: And then, then, then I want to make you talk, what will I do?
Prabhupada: No. But your habit is as soon as we begin talks, immediately you talk.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: Without hearing. And therefore you do not understand.
Dr. Patel: I think, uh... No, I think... What way I will make you talk? You tell me the way. I will make you talk...
Prabhupada: And you'll hear first of all.
Dr. Patel: Accha. Let us hear.
Prabhupada: Then I... You are simply patient. Then if you cannot understand, you'll inquire. Not that you will think, "I know better than him. Therefore I shall talk." It will never help you to understand.
Dr. Patel: Well, if you run away with the idea that I am thinking like that, it is wrong.
Prabhupada: No, no. You are..., you are habituated to think like that.
Dr. Patel: I am habituated.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is your...
Dr. Patel: Habit is... Habit is habit. But I have got all respect for you. Don't say that I am thinking that.
Prabhupada: No, no. I know that. I know that.
Dr. Patel: That is... Don't run away with that idea that I am disrespecting you.
Prabhupada: And therefore I am pointing out your defects.
Dr. Patel: That's all right. I am prepared to correct it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: But you, you keep mum. If I don't excite, you don't speak. So which way I shall excite you? [laughter throughout]
Prabhupada: No. There is no question of excitement. When you put a question, I shall answer it from the sastra. Just like it is..., it is any child can understand. If I ask a child, "What is this?" "Hand." "What is this?" "Head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say "Body"? So you are speaking less than a child. [laughter]
Dr. Patel: Hmm. That is what I am. That is what I am. That is what I am.
Prabhupada: Yes. Any child, if you ask him, "My dear child, what is this?" he'll say, "It is hand." "What is this?" "It is head." "What is this?" "Leg." Does he say, "All body"? You are speaking like that.
Dr. Patel: Right... How shall I speak? Shall I beat your body?
Prabhupada: No, no. [laughter] Don't speak.
Dr. Patel: Where is the right way?
Prabhupada: No, no. Any gentleman says... It is right? If I ask a child, "What is this?" what he'll say? "It is hand." Will he say, "It is head"? Then? You are speaking like less than a child.
Dr. Patel: That is what I am.
Prabhupada: Yes. Come on, Mr. Sar.
Dr. Patel: No, he will not say anything because he's a baniya. He'll reserve his opinion.
Indian man (4): To answer the scripture... [break]
Prabhupada: No, no. Vedic system is...
Indian man (3): You know, all these... [break]
Prabhupada: ...Arjuna. In the beginning he was arguing, but when he saw it is useless, he said, sadhi mam prapannam. Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg 2.7]. That is required.
Indian man (3): Guru expects from you that thing... [break]
Prabhupada: Actually, it is a process, a guru should not instruct anybody who is not a disciple.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: Because he's not submissive, it is useless waste of time. That is... That is the... Guru should not speak to anyone...
Dr. Patel: Therefore you are speaking to me. So I am... [break]
Prabhupada: According to our Vaisnava principle, adau gurvasrayam: the first business is to accept a spiritual master. Sad-dharma-prccha. Then one has to inquire about sad-dharma. Sadhu-marganugamanam: one should follow the footprints of the previous acarya. This is the process, one after another. So first thing is adau gurvasrayam, one has to accept a guru. So you may..., you should, I mean to say, check whether he's guru or not. That is allowed. It is said for one year the sisya and the guru should meet together...
Dr. Patel: And don't talk.
Prabhupada: Eh? No, the guru..., I mean, the aspirant sisya will hear and study whether he's actually fit for becoming guru. Similarly, the guru will also study that whether he's actually fit for becoming a... Just like in our Society. We don't accept immediately. We don't give initiation immediately. First of all lives for some times. Then when he becomes eager, we give the first initiation, chanting Hare Krsna mantra. Then after one year, when he's fit, he's doing everything well, then we initiate him. This is our process. [break] Yes.
Dr. Patel: So if you don't hear near me, so that is the misfortune of all...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. You are a learned gentleman.
Dr. Patel: He's learning.
Prabhupada: A learned gentleman, that is another thing, yes. And we are preaching. We must talk on the point of philosophy. That is another thing.
Dr. Patel: So we have made up now. Don't worry. [break]
Indian man (3): You cannot argue what he says.
Dr. Patel: No... That is the way. You see, I am trying to... [break]
Prabhupada: That is nice.
Dr. Patel: Sometimes you say nice, and sometimes you also fire me. So what this, what I am to understand about our relationship?
Prabhupada: You should be fired always. [laughter] But if I do not say sometimes "nice," then it will be dangerous.
Dr. Patel: Then why you'll understand that this is all humbug?
Bhagavata: Srila Prabhupada, you can tell us the qualifications of guru and the qualifications of disciple?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is very simple thing. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuḥ sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. So this is the qualification of chela. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta. One has to accept a guru. Who? Jijnasu. What kind of jijnasu? [Hindi] Jijnasuḥ sreya uttamam. "What is the best, ultimate goal of life?" Such person will require a guru. Those who are interested with these material affairs, they do not require a guru.
Dr. Patel: They require Einstein as a guru.
Prabhupada: No. No, no. Real guru means those who are interested in these material affairs, they do not require a guru. It is... It is a fashion: "Such man has kept such and such guru." Just like keeping a dog. This is not guru.
Dr. Patel: [laughs] That is good.
Prabhupada: Keeping a guru, and "Guru, come here. Come here, guru." [laughter] Not like that. That is useless. And this is the qualification of chela: jijnasuḥ sreya uttamam, one who is interested with the Absolute Truth. That requires..., he requires a guru. And guru means, sabde pare ca nisnatam. Sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam [SB 11.3.21]. This is the qualification. Sabde, he's, in the Vedic knowledge, he's perfect. Sabde pare ca. Nisnatam: he has immersed himself in that ocean. And the result is brahmany upasama..., he has no more material interests, simply Brahman, that's all. How simple it is, the qualification of chela and qualification of guru. As soon as Arjuna accepted Krsna as his guru, He immediately gave him a slap: asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg 2.11]: "You are talking like very learned man. You are fool number one."
Dr. Patel: So you told me the same thing. Very good. I must be proud that I am going to be like Arjuna. That is what you mean to say.
Prabhupada: No, no. This is the guru's... Guru's business is, when he talks much, he says, "All right, it is all right," but when he accepts guru-slaps.
Dr. Patel: Choke him up. [laughs]
Prabhupada: Yes. How mildly He says: asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams... [Bg 2.11]. "You do not know what is what..."
Dr. Patel: "You are a fool."
Prabhupada: "You are a fool number one." Nanusocanti panḍitaḥ. He says, "A panḍita does not like this." That means, "You are a mūrkha." Indirectly He said, "A panḍita does not do this. Now you learn." Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram... [Bg 2.13]. He began to speak Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Nanusocanti. The body, either dead or living, the panḍita has nothing to care about. But the whole world is taking care of the body.
Dr. Patel: Because the world is body conscious.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore they are all... None of them are panḍitas. Anyone who is in the bodily concept of life, he is described as ass and cow.
Dr. Patel: Go-kharaḥ.
Prabhupada: Ah, go-kharaḥ. Yes. You have heard so many things. [break] ...buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhatuke sva-dhiḥ kalatradisu bhauma-ijya-dhiḥ [SB 10.84.13]. Kalatradisu, attached.
Dr. Patel: Wife and others.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bhauma-ijya-dhiḥ. And land: "This is my country, this is my home, this is ijya," bhauma-ijya-dhiḥ. Ijya, ijya means worshipable. As all these leaders, so-called nationalists, they are under the concept of this body, and their country, their home, is worshipable. Bhauma-ijya-dhiḥ. Yat-tirtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij janesv abhijnesu sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]. [break] Now...
Dr. Patel: And Hindus... [laughs]
Prabhupada: Go va kharo va. The same thing. Go is little useful because it supplies milk, and kharaḥ is useful, you overburden him.
Dr. Patel: No, we were giving milk of kharaḥ to the children in [indistinct] hospital.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because that is as good as the mother's milk.
Prabhupada: Everything has got his use, but still, go-kharaḥ is go-kharaḥ.
Dr. Patel: This is also creation of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And useful.
Prabhupada: No, useful.
Dr. Patel: Nothing, nothing which is not useful...
Prabhupada: No, useful, that's all right. Again your coming to this, "Therefore everything is Krsna." That is not conclusion.
Dr. Patel: No, I did not say everything is again. You are misinterpreting me before these boys.
Prabhupada: No, you'll come to that.
Dr. Patel: I don't come to that. I say everything is made by Krsna which is useful. Nothing which is not useful is made by Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. We are pūrnasya..., pūrnasya pūrnam adaya pūrnam evavasisyate. Pūrnam adaḥ pūrnam idam . Everything created by Krsna, that is perfect. He does not create anything useless. Just like this seawater is salty. Why it is salty? If it is not salty, then it cannot be preserved. Therefore it is salty. You have to take water. But it is made salty. The process is... It is distilled by the sun, and then you are supplied. Just see how perfectly it is done. It is put onto the top of the hills, and it comes as river. This is God's creation.
Bhagavata: Complete.
Prabhupada: Complete, yes. Complete... Complete intelligence.
Bhagavata: But we make it incomplete.
Dr. Patel: How can you make anything incomplete? You have no power to... [break]
Prabhupada: We take instruction from the complete, Krsna.
Dr. Patel: So don't say "we." We are nothing.
Prabhupada: Yes. We take instruction from the complete, not partial. Partial instruction may be good partially. But complete is complete. [break] ...pūrnam adaya pūrnam evavasisyate.
Dr. Patel: That is, then what do you... How you explain that? How will you explain that, thats...
Prabhupada: Just like Krsna... Krsna is expanding Himself in so many ways. Still He's Krsna. He's not impersonal. The Mayavadi says, "Because Krsna has expanded in so many ways, therefore no more Krsna. Krsna is finished." Because this is Mayavada. "Because Krsna has expanded in so many ways, therefore there is no personal Krsna." This is Mayavada philosophy. But the Upanisads say, "No, even though He has expanded in so many thousands ways, still He's Krsna."
Dr. Patel: But even Bhagavata I think says that even though He was born as... in body, He was still so in His eternal place there.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is pūrna. It does not mean... Just like isvaraḥ sarva-bhūtanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg 18.61]. He's staying in everyone's heart. That does not mean He's finished. He's still there. That is Krsna. Maya tatam idam sarvam [Bg 9.4]. "And still, don't think that I am there."
Dr. Patel: Avyakta-mūrtina.
Prabhupada: Yes. Avyakta-mūrtina. That is avyakta. His impersonal feature... His impersonal feature is avyakta. But His personal feature is vyakta.
Dr. Patel: His personal feature is in Goloka.
Makhanalal: There was that one notable, so-called incarnation. He supposedly lost all his potency be...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Makhanalal: He said he gave away all his potency...
Prabhupada: He's a rascal. What potency he has got?
Dr. Patel: Who?
Prabhupada: Any rascal who has called himself incarnation of God. There are so many rascals.
Makhanalal: Wasn't that Ramakrishna who said he gave away everything; he had nothing more except...
Prabhupada: You want Ramakrishna.? Don't talk of these nonsense. Simply they have misled, that's all.
Dr. Patel: Simply you bhaja Krsna and don't think anything else. And you get all your intelligence there.
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna has said, mam ekam. "Don't go to these foolish rascals." Mam ekam. Otherwise you'll be misled. Because they are misleaders, rascals.
Dr. Patel: You are so very hard.
Prabhupada: I must be hard.
Dr. Patel: Hard, harsh, and hard and harsh...
Prabhupada: The whole world is spoiled for these Mayavadis. Therefore I am very much hard.
Dr. Patel: What... I don't say hard. Hard and harsh...
Prabhupada: No, we must be harder and harder.
Dr. Patel: Hard and harsh. Does matter...
Prabhupada: I don't make any compromise with these rascals. No words. No, no. I'll never make that. Even if I don't get any disciple, I'll be satisfied. But I cannot make any compromise as these rascals. I cannot make. Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca taraḥ sahasrasaḥ [Canakya Panḍita]. If I create one moon, that is sufficient. I don't want many stars. That was my Guru Maharaja's principle, and that is my principle. What is the use of having number of fools and rascals? If one man understands rightly, he can deliver the whole world. [break]
Indian man (3): Do you mean the other persons...?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Own way one cannot understand rightly. That is another rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: Understanding God is always supraconscious with them. Never by the mind.
Prabhupada: They... One has to rise, rise..., understand rightly from the right person. He cannot. He's imperfect. How he can understand rightly?
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's right.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: If a man has seen a place, that man will show you that place. That is how it is.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (3): But to reach that place there are several ways.
Prabhupada: Therefore it is said, tattva-darsinaḥ. You have to approach a person who has seen the truth. You don't manufacture your own truth. That will be misleading. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. This is Vedic instruction. In order to understand scientifically, you must approach a guru.
Indian man (3): And with a clean slate.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Indian man (3): With a clean slate of his mind.
Dr. Patel: It is complete spirit of submission.
Prabhupada: Submission. Because...
Dr. Patel: And inquiry also.
Prabhupada: ...I am a fool. If I go with a challenging spirit, what is the meaning of my challenging? I am a fool.
Dr. Patel: That is how we people are educated
Prabhupada: Yes. But the Westerners are not that. [break] ...different thing. They never say anything against me. Whatever I say, they accept. We have got so many Western men.
Dr. Patel: This education has created this, this sort of morose...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...in the educational system...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (3): Inquiring is not bad. Inquiring of anything is...
Prabhupada: No, inquiring submissively. Not that challenging. If one challenges to inquire, he'll never be benefited.
Dr. Patel: That is how... Even the Einstein inquired himself so unchallengingly. That man was such a big mathematical genius... [break]
Prabhupada: Knowledge cannot be acquired by challenge. Knowledge is acquired by submission. That is the process.
Dr. Patel: But I don't think I am challenging you.
Prabhupada: No, no. Why you are taking?
Dr. Patel: I am fixing the aruni[?] with another aruni. So you tell these boys I'm not challenging you.
Prabhupada: No, no. I am talking of the process, not of you personally. Yes.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise these people will go away with an idea that I am here to challenge you and your authority.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Indian man (3): Nobody can challenge anybody. A Vaisnava... [break]
Prabhupada: ...thing is to be done submissively, pranipatena. Two things. Inquiry must be guided by two things: submission and seva.
Dr. Patel: First, according to Bhagavad-gita, most important is sraddha... [break]
Prabhupada: ...jnanam. So that is the beginning. Adau sraddha tataḥ sadhu-sahgaḥ. Atha bhajana-kriya. These are the step by step. Atha anartha-nivrttiḥ syat tato nistha rucis tataḥ athasaktis tato bhavas sadhakanam ayam premnaḥ pradurbhave bhavet kramaḥ [Cc Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the krama, krama pantha. Everything is there in our Vedic literature. One has to study cool-headed, and he'll get the things. [break] ...movement of Krsna consciousness or spiritual consciousness is based on sraddha. Just like Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. If one actually has sraddha, "Yes, Krsna says like this, then I'll accept Krsna," that is sraddha. "Krsna says... Oh, Krsna says like this. Why shall I surrender to Him?" that is not sraddha. Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. If one accepts this principle, then there is sraddha. That is explained by Caitanya-caritamrta-kara:
sraddha-sabde-visvasa kahe sudrḍha niscaya
krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya [Cc Madhya 22.62] This is sraddha. Sraddha-sabde visvasa. Firm faith. "Yes, Krsna has said that mam ekam saranam vraja. I will accept it. I will accept it. Even I do not understand, I will accept it." That is called visvasa sudrḍha niscaya. And faith means krsne bhakti: "If I surrender to Krsna, then my all perfection is there." This is called sraddha.
Dr. Patel: I... Shall I ask you one thing?
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] As soon as...
Dr. Patel: What are the papas and what are the punyas?
Prabhupada: Papa means so long you accept this material body.
Dr. Patel: Is papa.
Prabhupada: Is papa. Either you accept as..., a material body as Brahma or as insignificant ant, it is papa.
Dr. Patel: Anything is papa. Anything is papa. Anything which you make removed from God consciousness is papa.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like outlaw. Outlaw means who does not care for the government laws. Similarly, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. The law means dharma, law. Dharma means to accept the laws of God. And what is the law? Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. This is the law. If one cannot accept this, then he's outlaw. Immediately.
Dr. Patel: And that is papa.
Prabhupada: That is papa.
Dr. Patel: Anything which makes you removed from God consciousness is papa.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: That is what I could not understand.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Anything means this is also: Krsna says, "You surrender," and if I do not surrender, that is papa. [sound of kirtana in background, approaching temple]
Indian lady (5): But serving to poor is serving the whole...
Prabhupada: [laughs] Again that disease. It has become a disease.
Indian lady (5): No, I want to ask you. Is that called punya?
Prabhupada: No, no.
Indian lady (5): Serving the poor?
Prabhupada: What is the use of your serving poor? Are you serving the poor? Why do you talk like that?
Indian lady (5): I want to ask you.
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all, are you serving the poor?
Indian lady (5): Yes, sir. I am a doctor. And we see only poverty. So I want to ask.
Prabhupada: Then, then every... So every patient is a poor, and every doctor is punyavan.
Dr. Patel: Hah, every doctor is a fool. Like me.
Indian lady (5): No, I want to ask you. Swamiji...
Dr. Patel: Swami, Swami answered.
Prabhupada: This has become a slogan, "Serving the poor." Where is the sastra? Where Bhagavad-gita it is said, "Serving the poor?"
Indian lady (5): It doesn't say. No, I know. That's why I want to...
Prabhupada: You are yourself poor. So how you can serve? [laughter]
Dr. Patel: [Gujarati]
Indian lady (5): No. Yes, I want to ask.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. That's all right. We should... First of all, we should know that "I am the poorest of the poor."
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: So first of all let me become rich. Then I shall serve. [pause] [break] Hare Krsna beat. [sound of kirtana in background] People will come and hear Hare Krsna. This slogan has spread, "If I serve the poor..." And what you have got, you will serve the poor? You have to work like an ass to earn your livelihood, and you are going to serve the poor.
Dr. Patel: [Gujarati] What is meant by service?
Prabhupada: No, and the poor cannot be served. Service..., service to be rendered to the higher authority.
Indian man (3): By serving poor, you are serving yourself.
Prabhupada: No. Serving nobody. Now, Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission... Just hear, doctor. Ah. Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna Mission, when I went to America, I met him. He said that "The Americans are asking that 'You take money from us for serving the poor. But when we go to India, we simply see poor men are lying on the footpath. So what you are doing with this money?' " You see? This is a plea for collection of money, "to serve the poor." What... [break] Yes. I know in America there are so many foundations. You see? And there are so many cheats also. They form a society, and the managers of the foundation, they have got plea, and they get out all the money. I have seen it. Who was that? That Mr. Bogus? No, Bogart. Bogart. I used to call him "Mr. Bogus." [laughter]
Dr. Patel: Americans are very clever at using money.
Prabhupada: Yes. They have made a clique with the managers of the foundation, and they present by literature, and the subject matter is India: "Oh, so many people are starving, so many being..." In this way they take money from the managers, and it is divided amongst themselves.
Dr. Patel: They are the starvers.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Bhava-bhūti: Also, Prabhupada, there was one report that the Red Cross, seventy-five percent of the money collected went on advertising.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Dr. Patel: America is living on advertisement. Right or wrong? I have been studying American, I mean, psychology.
Prabhupada: Yes. That I understand.
Dr. Patel: This is the psychology.
Prabhupada: That I understand.
Dr. Patel: And they really are actually running away. They have no peace of mind. [break]
Prabhupada: The other day one American devotee, he said, "Sir, I see..." He first came, "I see the poorest man here is happier than the richest man in my country." He said like that.
Dr. Patel: Because they have got no peace of mind.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And every...
Prabhupada: And that is...
Dr. Patel: This, any act of competition is a sin and a violence against... [break]
Prabhupada: ...competition even Krsna. Krishnamurti's competition even Krsna. You know that?
Dr. Patel: No, I didn't know.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Krishnamurti, I read a couple of books. He said that nothing..., everything...
Prabhupada: Does he say anything about Krsna?
Dr. Patel: Yes, he does say.
Prabhupada: What does he say?
Dr. Patel: He says the Krsna's all names are all..., God is also His name. Because the God, it is Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no. What does he say about personal Krsna? Does he know anything?
Bhagavata: He said, "You are your own guru," Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is it.
Devotee: I have heard him.
Dr. Patel: He's not becoming guru of anybody.
Prabhupada: No, no. Why does he say that "You do this"? That is guru. Guru means one who orders. That is guru. That means you reject all other guru... That means... He means to say that "You reject all other gurus. Accept me guru." That's all.
Indian man (3): That is not... That is what he...
Prabhupada: That is competition.
Indian man (3): All gurus are like that. All gurus are like that.
Bhava-bhūti: He's writing many books saying, "There's no need for books."
Prabhupada: Accha. Now see. He says, "There is no need of books," and he writes books, Krsna books.
Indian man (3): Yes. Yes. Not even of Krsna.
Bhagavata: He said, "Everything is within you. So you are your own guru, and..."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Bhagavata: "...everything will be revealed to you."
Dr. Patel: It may be within him, all right. He must drag it out.
Prabhupada: No, no. Now, just see how he is making nonsense competition. Just see.
Indian man (3): Vasarambhanam[?].
Prabhupada: Vasarambhanam.
Dr. Patel: Vasarambhanam caro namadheyam[?]. [break]
Prabhupada: He's writing books, and he says, "There is no need of books."
Indian man (3): He has written so many books, not one.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...nonsense. Directly. That's all. Our, our criterion is, because we are Krsna conscious people, Krsna says,
So anyone we see that he does not know about Krsna, he's a mūḍha.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dr. Patel: I think we are of one of those four categories. Or we are also mūḍha?
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: No. At least, give us some name. [laughs]
Prabhupada: You are, you are catur-vidha.
Indian man (3): Artharthi.
Prabhupada: Not artharthi. Jnani. [laughter] No, I must give the proper position. Jnani...
Dr. Patel: You have, you have admitted at the end, before these boys, at least.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: You have rehabilitated me. [laughter] [break]
Prabhupada: ...pious, how you would come daily to see the mahgala-arati? This is the proof.
Dr. Patel: That is..., we are, we are brought up like that from our...
Prabhupada: That is..., that means you are pious.
Indian man (3): You are pious.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Sucinam sukrtam grhe.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man (3): Yoga-bhrasta vijayate.
Dr. Patel: Yoga-bhrasta. We must have been yoga-bhrasta in the past. [break]
Prabhupada: Eh?
Makhanalal: Sufi philosophy, there's one professor, so-called professor, Baba Ram Das. He says there's no need for talking, but he has many thousands of followers. They all gather around him.
Prabhupada: But he's talking.
Makhanalal: Yes. But he's talking.
Prabhupada: He's talking. These are the defects.
Dr. Patel: Huh?
Prabhupada: Some rascal has said that "There is no need of talking." But this is also talking, "There is no need of talking." So why he's talking?
Dr. Patel: Just a rascal says, "There is no need of cutting."
Prabhupada: No. That is another thing.
Makhanalal: But he is trying to... [break]
Prabhupada: Sevaya pranipatena. Sevaya. [break]
Dr. Patel: I, I... Do you like it? I have to ask you.
Prabhupada: Thank you so much.
Dr. Patel: Do you like it?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: We have made it for you.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: All this... How do you like?
[break] [kirtana] [end]
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1974/mar/morning_walk/bombay/march/23/1974
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