Temple Press Conference
August 5, 1971, London
Prabhupāda: It's Kṛṣṇa's mission to awaken man's original consciousness. At the present moment we have got designated consciousness. I am thinking "I am Indian," you are thinking Englishman, another is thinking American. But actually we are neither American nor Indian nor any that sort of designation. We are part and parcel of God. That is our real identification. If we come to that consciousness, then all the problems of the world will be solved. Now, due to our designated consciousness, we are thinking, "You are different from me, I am different from you," but if we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we shall know that we are one, the same spirit soul, maybe in different dress. That is the explanation given in Bhagavad-gītā. Just like we are all human beings, gentlemen, ladies. Maybe in different dress, but our aims and objects are the one and the same. So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is purificatory process. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. To make people free from all designations. Tat-paratvena nirmalam. And in Kṛṣṇa consciousness they become purified. And when they're purified their activities by purified senses make them perfect. That is the ideal perfection of human life. And our process is also very simple. There is no need of becoming a great philosopher, scientist, or thoughtful man. Simply by chanting the holy name of the Lord we can immediately contact with the Lord, because the Lord as the person and His name and His quality are all absolute. So this is a great science. Unfortunately, there is no department of education for this science in any one of the so many universities. So we invite, therefore, all kinds of serious men for the welfare of the human society to understand this great movement and if possible take part in it and cooperate with us. That will solve all the problems of the world. That is the verdict of Bhagavad-gītā. Very authoritative book of knowledge. Most of you may know the name Bhagavad-gītā. So our movement is based on this Bhagavad-gītā, the authorized book of knowledge, and approved by big ācāryas in India, Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, Lord Caitanya. So you are all responsible representatives of papers. Try to understand this movement and ventilate it as far as possible for the good of the whole human society. That's all.
Woman Interviewer: Yes, Your Grace, it seems to many people that there is probably more. There are probably more people in the world now who are seeking some kind of spiritual new light than probably ever before, or at least, there's more evidence of it. And I wonder if you agreed with that, and if so can you tell me why it is?
Prabhupāda: Yes, That should be the natural hankering with us. Because we are spirit soul we cannot be happy in material atmosphere. Just like you take out the fish from the water, it cannot be happy on the land, similarly, if we are without spiritual consciousness we can never be happy. So people after advancement of scientific knowledge and economic development, they are not happy. They are becoming hippies. So the cause is that they're in search of spiritual life and this is the proper delivery, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness.
Woman Interviewer: Thank you. So presumably you would encourage this movement of more people to find a spiritual life. You...
Prabhupāda: Yes, unless you take to this movement, you cannot be happy. That's a fact. Therefore we invite everyone to study, to understand this great movement.
Woman Interviewer: What worries me slightly is that since the arrival in Britain some while ago of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, a lot of... He was the first guru that most people ever heard of, and since then there have been a lot of people and a lot of gurus that have suddenly appeared out of nowhere. And one gets the feeling that sometimes they're not all as genuine as they ought to be, and I wondered whether you feel that it's right that you could perhaps issue a warning to people who are seeking some new spiritual life that they should take care to make sure they have a genuine guru to teach them.
Woman Interviewer: Do you feel there's a danger?
Prabhupāda: Of course, to search out guru is very nice. But if you want a cheap guru or if you want to be cheated, then there will be many cheater gurus. But if you are sincere, then you'll have sincere guru. People want to be cheated because they want everything very cheap. But just like we are asking people no illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. So people think it is very difficult, it is botheration. And if somebody says, "No, you do. Whatever nonsense you like do. You simply take my mantra," they will like it. So the thing is that they want to be cheated; therefore cheaters come. They don't want to undergo some austerity. Human life is meant for austerity. But they are not prepared to undergo austerity. Suppose some cheaters come. They say, "Oh, no austerity. Whatever you like you do. You simply pay me and I'll give you some particular mantra, and you become God within six months." (Laughter) And that is going on. So you want to be, if people want to be cheated like that, the cheaters will come.
Woman Interviewer: So do you think people should beware?
Prabhupāda: They should be serious.
Woman Interviewer: I mean if someone in all seriousness wishes to find the spiritual life and happens to finish up with the wrong guru, I mean should they beware?
Prabhupāda: Yes. But... When ordinary education, to take ordinary education one has to devote so much time, labor, and understand, and if one is going to take spiritual life they must be serious. And how is that, they think that simply by some wonderful mantra within six months they become God? Why they want like that? That is... That means they want to be cheated.
Woman Interviewer: And how would one tell that one had a genuine guru because one would be told to give up certain parts of...?
Prabhupāda: That of course depends on the person who is really anxious for guru. Just like when you go to the market to purchase some thing, you test it whether it is genuine or not. Similarly, you have to test who is genuine.
Woman Interviewer: How can you tell if you don't...?
Prabhupāda: That requires little education, a little knowledge. Therefore we are opening so many centers, giving people opportunity to know what is genuine, what is not genuine.
Woman Interviewer: How many followers have you got now throughout the world or can you not count...?
Prabhupāda: Well, for any genuine thing the followers may be very little, and any rubbish thing, the followers may be many.
Woman Interviewer: How many... I meant for the initiated followers, people who have...
Prabhupāda: About three thousand we have got.
Woman Interviewer: And is it growing all the time?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is growing very slowly. Because we have got so many restrictions. People do not like any restriction.
Woman Interviewer: Yes. Where is the following the greatest? It is in America?
Prabhupāda: In America, in Europe, and Canada, in Japan, Australia. And India there is millions, there is millions of this cult. Apart from India, in other countries they are small quantity. But in India there are millions and millions.
Male Interviewer: Do you think your movement is the only way to come to know God?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Devotee: Do you think this movement is the only way to know God?
Male Interviewer: So how do you have that assurance?
Prabhupāda: From the authorities, from God, Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66].
Male Interviewer: But if somebody else was to say that God had told him something else, would you equally believe him?
Śyāmasundara: It's not that we don't accept other religious processes.
Prabhupāda: No, we believe other process. Just like there are steps. If you want to go to the topmost story, so you go by steps. So some of them have gone fifty steps, some of them have gone hundred steps, but to complete the required steps is 1,000 steps.
Male Interviewer: And you've gone up the thousand have you?
Woman Interviewer: If any of us here this morning wish to become followers what would we have to give or give up?
Prabhupāda: First of all one has to give up illicit sex life.
Woman Interviewer: Does that include all sex life or...?
Woman Interviewer: What is illicit?
Prabhupāda: Illicit sex (is) without marriage, without any relation, sex life, that is illicit sex life.
Woman Interviewer: So sex is allowed in marriage, but not outside.
Prabhupāda: That is animal sex life. Just as animals, they have no relationship and have sex life. But human society there is restriction. In every country, in every religion there is a system of marriage. So without marriage, sex life is illicit sex life.
Woman Interviewer: But sex is allowed within marriage.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is...
Woman Interviewer: And what else would one have to give up for...
Prabhupāda: One has to give up all kinds of intoxicants.
Woman Interviewer: Is that drugs and spirits?
Prabhupāda: Any kind of drug that intoxicates.
Śyāmasundara: Even tea and...
Prabhupāda: Even tea, cigarette. They are also intoxicants.
Woman Interviewer: So that includes alcohol, marijuana, tea. Anything else?
Prabhupāda: Yes. One has to give up animal food. All kinds of animal food. Meat, eggs, fish, like that. And one has to give up gambling.
Woman Interviewer: Does one have to leave one's family? I think everybody lives in the temple, don't they?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Unless one gives up all these sinful activities one cannot be initiated.
Woman Interviewer: So one should give up one's family as well?
Woman Interviewer: To be a for..., yes.
Prabhupāda: Of course, family. We are not concerned with the family, we are concerned with the individual person. If one wants to be initiated in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement he has to give up all these sinful activities.
Woman Interviewer: So you give up family as well. But what about...
Śyāmasundara: No, no, you don't have to give up one's family.
Woman Interviewer: But I mean supposing I wished to become an initiate. Wouldn't I have to come and live here?
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily.
Woman Interviewer: Oh, I could stay at home?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Woman Interviewer: What about work, though? Does one have to give up one's job?
Prabhupāda: You have to give up these bad habits and chant these beads, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. That's all.
Woman Interviewer: Would I have to give any financial support?
Prabhupāda: No, that's your voluntary wish. If you give us, that's all right. Otherwise, we don't mind.
Woman Interviewer: Sorry, I didn't understand.
Prabhupāda: We do not want, depend on anyone's financial contributions. We depend on God, or Kṛṣṇa.
Woman Interviewer: So I wouldn't have to give any money at all.
Woman Interviewer: Is this one of the main things that distinguishes a genuine guru from a fake guru?
Prabhupāda: Yes. A genuine guru is not a business man. Our... (end)
Room Conversation Excerpt
August 9, 1971, London
Prabhupāda: Therefore His teachings, crude, teachings, cannot be now applied to the modern advanced educated people. That was suitable for those people. Now people have advanced in science, in philosophy. Now God consciousness ...and should be presented on the basis of science and philosophy. Otherwise people will not accept.
Guest: There's one philosophical point I would like you to elucidate. I haven't been able to quite understand, certainly the dualistic, incomprehensible... the dualistic-nondualistic philosophy which sees at the same time Kṛṣṇa, as comprehending all of man, all of the world, everything, within the body, we might say, of Kṛṣṇa, And at the same time however, one sees the world as distinct from Kṛṣṇa, in other words, as māyā, and as illusion. And it is this, the dualistic, I would like to... If you could just explain to me the difference between the... I mean, how this fits in, the monistic or the idea of the unitary view that Kṛṣṇa is everything, all and in all. And then at the same time that the world, there is this world of illusion which is somehow distinct from Kṛṣṇa. Could you just explain this point to me?
Prabhupāda: This is very easy to understand. Just like you are recording my speeches in the tape recorder. When you play back it will speak just like I am speaking, but I am not there. Is it not fact?
Prabhupāda: It will appear now I am speaking from beyond this world. Somebody's hearing, here somebody's speaking. Again, when the record player will play... (end)
London, August 10, 1971
Śyāmasundara: There's already a big church on it.
Dhanañjaya: That may be better, because there's more space there.
Śyāmasundara: We haven't seen it yet. We haven't gone inside yet.
Mr. Arnold: I'll try and make arrangements to go and have a look at that.
Śyāmasundara: And also that other one around the corner.
Mr. Arnold: The (indistinct) chapel? That's a very large building. But you can't go outwards(?). You can't go up. And there's no other facility.
Mr. Arnold: Near Oxford. A very large building, but it's, it's in a bad state of repair.
Śyāmasundara: We'll concentrate on the other ones.
Dhanañjaya: (indistinct) best as far as the land's concerned. It's situated in the biggest area of space.
Śyāmasundara: I have to try to find out when George is coming back.
Prabhupāda: George can give his..., what is called?
Prabhupāda: No. What is called? Reaction, or...
Dhanañjaya: His qualities?
Prabhupāda: No. The show, what is called?
Prabhupāda: Concert show.
Prabhupāda: Better he can raise funds from New York, but...
Śyāmasundara: Well, most of the money that they get from these concerts is not on the concert itself but on the record album and the movie that comes from it, the film.
Dhanañjaya: And the royalties.
Śyāmasundara: Royalties from making a record of music and the film of the show.
Śyāmasundara: Just like Bangladesh. They raised about a million dollars from the concert and nineteen million from the record album and film. So those two don't require any special place. They could be anywhere.
Dhanañjaya: Better here though, because George has never made any public appearances...
Śyāmasundara: Actually I think it would be just as big here.
Dhanañjaya: Yes. If the result, if people knew, if it was...
Śyāmasundara: He's never made a public appearance. Only one in America.
Dhanañjaya: Everyone from all over Europe will be coming to see him, without a doubt... In Europe there's about 350 million people, almost 400 million.
Śyāmasundara: Actually he made two statements that, well, they practically promised to do this. He said in Los Angeles when he saw the Deities: "Oh, we must have a place like this in London.'' And then in New York, because I said, "Well, we don't want to be on your show here. We volunteer. You promised...,'' I said, "You promised us to be on the show in New York, and he said, "I know I promised, and I must fulfill my word, I gave you my word, but I'm just asking you if you will not be on this show, and later I'll have another special concert for Hare Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: So remind him.
Prabhupāda: What about these Hindu communities?
Śyāmasundara: Well, that we can do during this time you're here. We can organize it. We can at least inspire them to help us.
Prabhupāda: Are they willing to cooperate with us or not? Because they have already opened some Hindu temple.
Dhanañjaya: There's not so much cooperation from them.
Śyāmasundara: They want their own local temple.
Dhanañjaya: They come here and they stay for ārotik, they take a little prasāda, they give some money, then go.
Śyāmasundara: They, the Indians know how to organize those things better that we do. They know how to collect money from individual Indians in their neighborhood, one, two pounds at a time. They can do that.
Mr. Arnold: We went out to an Indian concert one night at Southall.
Mr. Arnold: This was..., we were very welcome, made very welcome indeed. And they had like a very small television, and they had pictures of the Deities there, and Hare Kṛṣṇa, (indistinct) about the chanting, and they loved it. I should mention there must have been about five hundred people in that hall.
Śyāmasundara: There's no Hindu temples on the West End, West End.
Mr. Arnold: There's one in (indistinct).
Śyāmasundara: Oh, there is?
Mr. Arnold: Sikh.
Śyāmasundara: Sikh, yeah. But I mean Hindu temple.
Dhanañjaya: I don't think the leaders, the leaders of these communities, they're not so willing to raise funds on our behalf.
Dhanañjaya: I don't think the leaders of the Hindu communities, they're not so willing to raise money on our behalf. They'll do it for their own functions, and their own temple requirements, but not on our behalf. And it's a weak...
Śyāmasundara: I'm thinking of the way Sadha Jivat Lal(?) raised so many lakhs of rupees, by selling, organizing, highly organized...
Prabhupāda: No, no. If they will, they can.
Prabhupāda: But he says they're not willing. That is the difference.
Mr. Arnold: I don't think they're willing at this stage, my lord, because there's been so little done for them, and I feel, and I...
Śyāmasundara: Well, we're having Jagannātha parade, Prabhupāda is speaking...
Mr. Arnold: Yes, but in their own communities, we, I suggested a long time ago that in fact there should be an appeal, start off with an appeal in the local papers.
Prabhupāda: The priestly class, they will make propaganda against us: "Oh, they are mlecchas, they are Europeans, they are Americans. What they can do? It is not good.'' Because India, the caste system is very strong. So I am giving the Europeans and Americans the opportunities to become brāhmaṇa, they are not satisfied.
Dhanañjaya: Also they say that here in our temple they don't let anyone else speak, so why should we..., they, why should we let them speak? This is what they say. Because we don't allow them to come, you know, and talk on Hinduism, so they say, "Why should we ask, let them do it here, in our community?"
Śyāmasundara: Still, they're asking us to supply them pūjārīs.
Śyāmasundara: They're asking us to supply them pūjārīs. Out of all their community, not one man will volunteer to be the pūjārī.
:Prabhupāda: They're asking us for pūjārī?
Prabhupāda: So why not take charge?
Śyāmasundara: At the Hindu center, didn't they ask, a couple, "Come and live there, be pūjārī,'' and...? I was hearing that.
Prabhupāda: But we cannot become pūjārī...
Śyāmasundara: Under their, under their direction. That's the trouble.
Dhanañjaya: So they have, they have already installed a Deity. They have a Deity of Vasudeva in the Hindu Center, but He's not dressed. He's standing with cakra, but He's not, He's not clothed very nicely, and the room is not decorated very nicely at all. He's just standing there. And they asked for a pūjārī to come and look after. But they..., you see what they're thinking, they're thinking, "Oh, we're pious. We're pious for acquiring Deity.'' You see? "Deity is only for the lower class people, so they can see, or they will be reminded that God is here. But we already know that God is here.'' So they turn and sit with their back to the Deity and they talk like this, and the Deity is here.
Prabhupāda: No. They, as Dhanañjaya said, that are not willing to cooperate with us.
Śyāmasundara: Well, I'm not so sure. They used to be when I was here, and I think if you have a Bhāgavata-saptāha, if the weather stays, and the weather's any good... I don't know.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah, that's what I mean.
Prabhupāda: Some, some priest come from India, and they cooperate with me. But if they have a feeling of noncooperation with us, then what is the use of paṇḍitas and Bhāgavata-saptāha?
Śyāmasundara: Saturday night you'll be speaking in the Hindu Center?
Dhanañjaya: On the fifteenth.
Śyāmasundara: Saturday, next Saturday night. So that will be a good indication. We'll know after then, if they cooperated, if they'll come. I think there'll be a big crowd.
Dhanañjaya: Actually, you see, it's the younger Indian families also. They're English. They're not Indian. They're more English than Indian. Their children, they don't speak Hindi, and they're playing just like Western children. So they're, when they see us, when we, when devotees go there, to the communities, they're so eager to take the books 'cause they can read them and they can relate with, with Kṛṣṇa consciousness somehow. Because they go every Sunday to their meetings there, and they hear the priest, and it's all boring. It's for the older, for the old. It's sentimental. That's all. So the older people, they're coming, and they're listening to the readings of the Rāmāyaṇa and so many other things. And the young people, they know, "Oh, these, these European people and American people, they must be doing something genuine. Otherwise why are they sacrificing so much?''
Prabhupāda: So how to attract the Indian younger people?
Dhanañjaya: But then again, they're influenced...
Śyāmasundara: They've asked us in that Hindu Center to teach classes.
Śyāmasundara: They've asked us to teach classes also in that center.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you do that?
Śyāmasundara: Not many people come, though. But we could attract them to come. Advertise and attract.
Dhanañjaya: See, that..., their main function is on a Sunday, and the last time Your Divine Grace came there, last year, that's where they hold their meetings, in that hall. But it's full of so much nonsense. They have pictures of Vivekananda...
Prabhupāda: Why don't you call that Dr. Shah?
Śyāmasundara: Dr. Shah.
Prabhupāda: He cannot help us?
Śyāmasundara: I don't know. We're still not sure about him.
Prabhupāda: And that one Mr. Ahujya came?
Śyāmasundara: Uh-huh. There are many men here who respect us, who would help us...
Prabhupāda: He wanted me to go to his house.
Prabhupāda: From that Auckland.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, he's from Auckland.
Prabhupāda: So he visited there...
Śyāmasundara: Oh, that's right, I know him. I have his card, yeah.
Prabhupāda: You have got his card?
Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him just now?
Śyāmasundara: Yeah, I have his... I think I have his phone number and everything too.
Prabhupāda: So call him so he can come here just now. He was talking seriously about "You please come immediately."
Śyāmasundara: I have his Delhi address too.
Prabhupāda: Now suppose the estimate is 250,000 pounds. So how much the bank may advance?
Mr. Arnold: I don't think the bank, in this state of, of, umm, the one at King Street, Hammersmith...
Mr. Arnold: The one at Kings Street, Hammersmith. I don't really think the bank will advance you anything. Umm, you see you've got nothing to mortgage.
Mr. Arnold: This is the first thing. You see, when we're talking of Kingsway Hall, you know, the big one, before, well here you had a bank on the site, and they were rather anxious to keep their premises, and consequently they would have loaned us money to retain their site. Any of these four that we're dealing with at the moment, there are no other banks or building societies on the site. This is what I think is, is absolutely imperative, that within the...
Prabhupāda: The bank will not be prepared to advance in such property?
Mr. Arnold: Well, they may well do, but it would only be... One couldn't guarantee that they would be expected to. But the bank manager, where the account of this temple is kept, they may be tempted to loan a half or three quarters of it, if they think that the thing is a good... I mean, this site at Kings Street, Hammersmith, for instance, if we don't buy it, then the suggestion is that within the very foreseeable future the place will be pulled down to build a large hotel, which means to say that the site is very valuable. On this score, the bank may well be tempted to loan you some money, just on the site alone, (indistinct) the premises. They would be interested.
Prabhupāda: Then means that a church turned out a new building. So that is a big stake.
Mr. Arnold: Mr. Dwyer was very anxious that the Dawson Place should have been purchased, or some house of a similar nature, because these can be used.
Śyāmasundara: (re: Mr. Ahujya) He'll be calling up in a few minutes. He's just gone out. She said she would tell him. He has an Indian Handicrafts house.
Prabhupāda: Suppose we can arrange for the money, somehow or other, half. Half a million required?
Mr. Arnold: For, for the new premises.
Prabhupāda: One fourth million if we can arrange. So is it possible to arrange for the other one fourth million from the bank?
Mr. Arnold: I think that if you're putting up a quarter of it, a quarter of a million, then I think there's every certainty of the bank loaning you the other quarter. I think this is quite a definite circumstance.
Dhanañjaya: See, because what they do is they loan the money on the strength of the value of the property. If the value of the property is 500,000 pounds, then they'll be quite...
Prabhupāda: So why don't you try for this property?
Śyāmasundara: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Then I will need the help of this Mr. (indistinct). I can try to raise that one fourth million, and one fourth million if the bank advances, then we can negotiate immediately.
Śyāmasundara: It would be nice if the Indians could help.
Prabhupāda: Do some practical proposal.
Prabhupāda: So far George is concerned, now it is more or less Utopian.
Śyāmasundara: You can't count on him at all.
Prabhupāda: ...if he was willing, he would have done long ago, but he is not very serious.
Śyāmasundara: Well, I've never asked him for it, to do that.
Prabhupāda: So what is this asking? When he visited our Los Angeles temple, he appreciated and he said, "Why not a temple like this in London?"
Śyāmasundara: Well he's..., I..., He's been waiting for me to come here and talk to him here about it. I haven't...
Prabhupāda: But it is difficult to meet him.
Śyāmasundara: Well, he's just out of station now. As soon as he's in station I'll get him, I'll meet him.
Prabhupāda: Why don't you call him in New York?
Śyāmasundara: I don't know where he is.
Prabhupāda: That you are getting.
Śyāmasundara: I don't know where he is.
Prabhupāda: But they can say, his men here.
Śyāmasundara: His men here won't say. They don't know themselves usually. Only his wife or one other, two persons know.
Prabhupāda: So his wife is here?
Śyāmasundara: They're all with him. His manager, Terry, is there.
Dhanañjaya: Bob Dylan would know where he is.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah, but Dylan changes his number about every two weeks. I have his old number from a year ago. I'm sure it's not the same.
Prabhupāda: If he agrees, he can in one night, he can.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I have one number in New York who would know where he is. Al Abramovitz(?).
Mr. Arnold: I wonder whether this large records firm in New Oxford Street...
Śyāmasundara: Warner Brothers?
Mr. Arnold: No, no. Record. James something or other. James...
Śyāmasundara: Oh, right over here.
Mr. Arnold: Yes, in New Oxford Street.
Mr. Arnold: They're agents for practically every...
Śyāmasundara: Yeah, the, one of the, man who works there, big man, is also with George now. They might know where he is.
Mr. Arnold: ...something to do with that particular firm.
Devotee: Derrick Taylor.
Dhanañjaya: Kenny Records.
Śyāmasundara: Kenny, Kenny Records. Well, there are several record agents. They might know...
Mr. Arnold: The whole building is taken up, and it all comes under the roof of James something or other, or agencies.
Mr. Arnold: Now in New Oxford Street, you can see it very easily. There's a Midland Bank, takes up the ground floor.
Śyāmasundara: It's right over here, isn't it?
Mr. Arnold: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So, so long I am here, let us try some tangible, not simply proposal.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Now we've seen how nice places we can get, so we have to work on these other angles: the Indian community and George.
Mr. Arnold: The bank
Śyāmasundara: And the bank. There's... What about Mr. Gopal? Did you see him? He's very wealthy.
Dhanañjaya: Yes, but he helps by donating material things. Not material things, but he likes to give things rather than...
Śyāmasundara: No, he's never been tactfully approached for anything else. He used to like us. He'd come around all the time. He lost his son, so he adopted us, like that. He used to give us presents, money.
Dhanañjaya: The most he's given is carpets.
Dhanañjaya: Carpets. He was giving carpets. The purple carpet in the temple.
Śyāmasundara: The carpet in the temple cost how many hundreds of pounds?
Dhanañjaya: Three hundred pounds. And the material for the Rathayātrā cart. All the material.
Prabhupāda: Where he is?
Dhanañjaya: He lives in Stretton.
Dhanañjaya: Near Stretton.
Śyāmasundara: Do you have his phone number? I'll call him, call him. He's, I'm sure he..., we could count on him to give something for...
Prabhupāda: So take their consult, what price they want.
Dhanañjaya: There's also Nandalal Chabria, Mr. Chabria's son, he's here.
Śyāmasundara: He's not very wealthy.
Dhanañjaya: No, he's not wealthy.
Prabhupāda: This Chabria is here?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. His son.
Prabhupāda: What is his father's name?
Śyāmasundara: Rāma, Ramachand.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Ramachand.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Those men might help do legwork, but they're not wealthy in themselves.
Prabhupāda: So you raise one fourth million.
Śyāmasundara: Okay. (begins laughing)
Prabhupāda: And Mr. Arnold will help for the bank one fourth.
Mr. Arnold: I don't think I can get my bank to loan it, my lord, but certainly we'll go and see the bank... (laughter by devotees)
Prabhupāda: And we'll pay gradually to the bank. Then we can immediately...
Mr. Arnold: You see, the tragedy is, my lord, they haven't got one account in this temple in my bank.
Śyāmasundara: Then why don't we go and take an account in his bank?
Dhanañjaya: Mr. Arnold's in the Midland Bank.
Prabhupāda: So why not open all the accounts there? Or ask the present bank that we are proposing this. Otherwise Midland Bank is a famous bank, it is nice bank.
Mr. Arnold: Well I suggest that they, they should go to the National Westminster and tell them that you'll want this loan for...
Prabhupāda: But they agreed, National Westminster.
Prabhupāda: To agree to pay on account of this Kingsway.
Mr. Arnold: Oh, no. That was Lloyd's that agreed then, because they were trying to save their premises. They knew perfectly well that if it went to someone else then the whole premises, sooner or later, would be torn down.
Prabhupāda: That was it.
Mr. Arnold: Yeah.
Śyāmasundara: So he's, he promised them perpetual lease.
Prabhupāda: At what price it was being sold?
Dhanañjaya: Two and a half million pounds.
Mr. Arnold: Two and a half, which is exactly the price that I told them to put the bid in for. I went over...
Prabhupāda: Two and a half million.
Mr. Arnold: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: What Dāyananda didn't tell us is that the bank was prepared to finance the whole thing.
Śyāmasundara: The whole thing.
Mr. Arnold: Well the bank and the building society.
Śyāmasundara: One building society and one bank combinedly would have financed the whole thing, but he sent us a letter that said only two-thirds, they would finance two-thirds.
Prabhupāda: So he is not very intelligent. A missed opportunity.
Mr. Arnold: See, I went to the Midland Bank, to various departments, and I found out almost to within a penny what exactly what it would raise. Of course, some of the people that put in the bids it happened were Midland Bank customers. I know I shouldn't have done it, but I did it, and I...
Prabhupāda: The bank was prepared to finance it, and he missed that opportunity?
Śyāmasundara: Yeah, and he didn't even tell us.
Mr. Arnold: The bank was only going to loan two-thirds. Then the building society next door was going to help, and also the National Westminster was prepared to help, I'm quite sure. But of course, I think...
Prabhupāda: It was not tactfully done.
Prabhupāda: Not intelligent.
Śyāmasundara: He didn't tell us.
Prabhupāda: He is not very intelligent.
Śyāmasundara: Had he told us a hundred percent financing...
Mr. Arnold: I pleaded with him to send you a letter. Of course you told him that to only put in a bid for a million and a half, and I pleaded with him to send you a letter that said no, step the bid up to two and a half million. Because quite honestly, I feel that the place was so vast, and most of it was let-places like Decca Recordings, Kodak, things like this—that most of the repayments to the banks would have been met quite easily.
Prabhupāda: I asked him also to consult some expert.
Śyāmasundara: Well, somehow or other...
Prabhupāda: That was two and a half million, and it is half million.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Perhaps it's better if we go step by step.
Śyāmasundara: Someday we'll go up into the big place. There will always be a big place.
Dhanañjaya: But there was not even a thousand pounds here.
Dhanañjaya: There wasn't even a thousand... At the time, there was not one, even one thousand pounds in the temple fund, and they were going for a two and a half, one and a half million deal.
Prabhupāda: No. The bank was prepared to finance. That is the point.
Mr. Arnold: You see, I sort of schooled Dāyananda and told him to go over and have words with the bank manager, promising that, you know, if they helped us to fund this building, then we would guarantee them tenure, and instead of paying interest back on the, on the loan, we, for bids, we would give them a guaranteed tenure, or peppercorn rent, but we would pay the original loan back, so that there was no charge at all, it was just...
Mr. Arnold: Yes, thank you, thank you.
Dhanañjaya: Don't cry over spilt milk.
Śyāmasundara: Actually, for a place in the center of London like this, it's nice to have offices and a small chapel and maybe a bookstore, but we would not be able to recruit many people to come on a residential basis, being in the center of the city. But in a place a little bit further out, like in a student neighborhood, everybody comes.
Prabhupāda: What? Student neighborhood?
Śyāmasundara: Yes, they'll come.
Prabhupāda: So, why not negotiate that?
Śyāmasundara: Daily they'll come and then gradually become devotees.
Prabhupāda: No, among the young men there is hankering after this sort of an institution. Everyone asks me, "Why the younger generation is attracted to this movement?'' so many reporters. So somehow or other, I reply, "The young men, they're receptive, they can understand the value, whereas the old fools cannot.'' (laughing)
Mr. Arnold: Well, my wife and I, we can. We're old.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) You are excepted. You are excepted. Sometimes old men are called old fools. (laughing)
Mr. Arnold: My wife is twice..., she's older that I am, and she's made me return because sometimes I've lost my temper with, over, you know, various things that happen...
Prabhupāda: The thing is that you are liberal to understand things as they are. But generally, old men, they are sophisticated. They do not like to accept anything new: "Go away.'' Or they are not serious about religion. That is another thing. Actually..., as I see that old, older section, they have been habituated in a different way, so they do not want to change (indistinct). That is the difference. So "Here is a nice thing; you should accept it.'' They are not inclined in that way. All stereotyped. Just like you have said last night, I told Lord Zet... (end)
August 14, 1971, London
Revatīnandana: So their residence place is not very far away, and she was curious. She came over a few days ago to find out more about Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Guest (1) English lady: I've seen a few about the street.
Guest (1): We live down there, you see, and we've seen them several times in the street singing, and asked them what you're doing, really.
Prabhupāda: You can keep it here. It may fall down. No. So do you know something about our movement?
Guest (1): I've been told something about it, the other day.
Prabhupāda: We are preaching God consciousness. God is God. God is neither Christian, nor Hindu, nor Muslim. God is God. So everyone should be God conscious. That is our movement. We are preaching love of Godhead. So it doesn't matter what type of religion one is following. We simply want to see that he has love for God. Our bhāgavata-dharma defines: that is first-class religion following which one becomes a lover of God. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [SB 1.2.6]. That is first-class religion if by following that one becomes a lover of God. It doesn't matter what religion he is following, but the test will be whether he has become a lover of God. That is our...
Guest (1): So you don't try to convert people from other religions.
Guest (1): One can be Christian and...
Prabhupāda: Anyway. We are teaching how to love God. That's all.
Guest (1): Yes. So we're doing the same thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But the test is there, whether he has become a lover of God or lover of dog. That is the test. If you find that he has become a lover of dog, then his religion is useless.
Guest (1): How does he know?
Prabhupāda: You can see whether he's loving God or dog. That's all. That you can see. Everyone can see, whether he has got good love for dog or good love for God. That you can see. Anyone can see. The test is there. Crucial test is there.
Revatīnandana: Jesus used the expression loving God or loving mammon.
Prabhupāda: That says, or... Everyone says different way. Mammon or dog is expression in the faith. That is the test. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says:
Yugāyitaṁ, "Every moment is just like twelve years." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, "crying like torrents of rain." Cakṣuṣā pravṛṣāyitam, śūnyāyitaṁ jagat sarvaṁ. "Oh, I find everything is vacant." Govinda viraheṇa me, "without God, without..." This is an ideal picture. So another test is, bhaktiḥ pareśānubhava-viraktir anyatra syāt. If one has become lover of God, naturally he will be detached to material enjoyment. Love of God and love of material world cannot go together. Either this or that. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. He never advised to, for economic development, for industrial development, or this and that. So many things. He sacrificed everything for God. That is one test, that "Here is a lover of God." He was punished that "You, you stop this preaching," but he did not. So that is love of God. He sacrificed everything. That is love of God. So the ideal is Lord Jesus Christ, and the follower must be, at least to some extent, to that point. That is test. So we say that you follow any religious path. That doesn't matter. We want to see whether you are lover of God. That is our propaganda. And if one is serious about loving God, it doesn't matter in which way he'll develop that dormant love. It doesn't matter. Just like one, a person wants to be a very nice student of mathematics. It doesn't matter from which university he takes the degree. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. He can go. Just like students are coming from one country to another, one country to another. Because his aim is education. So if one is serious about loving God, then it doesn't matter in which way he learns that art. It doesn't matter. He won't discriminate, "Oh, I must learn this art from this university." No. Any university. It doesn't matter. So our principle is that we are teaching love of God. So actually, those who are after God, they are coming. It doesn't matter whether he is in America, in Russia, in Africa, or Canada. It doesn't matter. They are coming. And method is simple. Chant the holy name of God. If you have got any name, you chant. We preach this. We don't say that you chant Kṛṣṇa. If you have got any name, God's name, then chant that.
Guest (1): We say Jesus Christ.
Prabhupāda: But Jesus Christ never said that He is God. He said "Son of God." We have no objection to chant the name, holy name of Jesus Christ. We have no objection. But we are preaching that "Chant the holy name of God." If you haven't got any name of God, then you chant our conception of name of God, Kṛṣṇa. We don't say Kṛṣṇa.
nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija-sarva-śaktis
tatrārpitā niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ
etādṛśī tava kṛpā bhagavān mamāpi
durdaivam īdṛśam ihājani nānurāgaḥ
Lord Caitanya says, in each and every name of God... There are many names of God. But in each and every name of God, the full potency of God is there. So... And there is no hard and fast rule for chanting the holy name of God. Anywhere, at anytime, anyone, in any circumstances, he can chant. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says "My Lord, You are so merciful that in this age..." Why...? Not in this age. Every age. "You are always in full potency in Your name. And I can associate with You simply by chanting Your holy name. But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that." A simple thing, to chant the name. God has become so kind, "You simply chant My name." But I am so unfortunate, I have no attraction for that. Now, these people are being taught... They have got this bead bag. I have also got. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. Now where is the loss? If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, where is the loss? And where is the want of time? They are walking on the street, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. I am sitting here, and now I'm talking with you. As soon as I finish talking, I shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So where is the difficulty? But ask people to chant the holy name of God, he won't accept. Unfortunate. And such simple thing. He hasn't got to go to church, to temple, or to go to hell or heaven. In whatever condition he is, he can chant holy name of God. But they're so unfortunate, they won't accept this theory. Etādṛśī tava kṛpā. "So God is so merciful, but I am so unfortunate that I cannot chant His holy name." There is no charges, there is no fee, there is no loss. If there is some gain, why not try for it? And the gain is there. That you practically see. Because these boys from Europe, America, and other places, they were... I do not wish to discuss. (laughter) But just see the process now. Not the process one has... Other has to calculate. Then calculate, then serve. Yes. There is so much profit.
Guest (1): We see that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So what you want more? Therefore let us cooperate. Don't think that it is against Christianism or it is sectarian. Let us cooperate fully. Jointly, let us preach all over the world, "Chant the holy name of God." Let us join together. That should be the real purpose of devotees of God. Here is... They are preaching love of God. Why should we be envious about them? It doesn't matter. We don't say that you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. If you have got name of God, you chant it. That's all. But we are preaching this cult, that chant the holy name of God. That's all. So what objection there may be from other sects? But they are envious. Because the younger generation are taking to it, so they are envious. Why they are envious? We wanted to purchase one church, and the priest in charge said that "I shall better burn this church. I shall not give them." Just see. Why? What we have done wrong? This is the very statement. "Better I shall burn this church, but I won't give them." Then? What we have done?
Guest (1): Don't worry about that.
Prabhupāda: No, I don't worry. That is another thing. But there are so many vacant churches. They are for sale. But as soon as we go, they refuse. "No."
Guest (1): When you chant, do you have to think what you're saying? How can you do other things?
Prabhupāda: Other things?
Guest (1): Well, many things require your concentration.
Prabhupāda: Well, let us first of all chant the holy name. Then we shall think of concentration.
Guest (1): You see, two, two things... You can't...
Prabhupāda: No. Concentrate, concentration automatically. If I chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and I hear, that is concentration. That is concentration. Immediately.
Guest (1): But you can't read or talk to someone.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of reading. We are simply asking to chant. Reading will come later on. Just like a small child, he's taught... In our educational system they chant... What is that? That...? (Hindi) Pahara pahara.(?)
Indian man: Pahara. Alphabet. A.I.E.
Prabhupāda: They chant. By chanting, by hearing they learn. "A,B,C," like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." We did it in our childhood. One boy will chant like that. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." And we shall repeat. "2 plus 2 equal to 4." So repeating three times, I understand 2 plus 2 equal to 4.
Guest (1): Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart?
Revatīnandana: Do you find that the chant goes on in your heart?
Prabhupāda: Why not? Why not?
Guest (1): It goes deeper and deeper?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything we hear, it goes to the heart. If I call you by name, it does not go to my heart? "You rascal. You stupid." You hear. Does it not go to my heart? Why I become angry unless it goes to my heart. If "rascal," "stupid," and all these bad names go to my heart, why God's name will not go to my heart? If by calling you by ill names you become angry, that means it goes to your heart. Why not good name? It goes. It enters through the ear and goes to the heart.
Guest (1): I'm doing that, saying sometimes a little prayer...
Prabhupāda: So if you repeatedly chant, it will remain. It will always remain in your heart.
Guest (1): Always going on.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no chance of escape. Chant constantly, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare, Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. It remains in the heart. Not only my heart. Others' heart, they also joke, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" If it can remain in others' heart, why not my heart? Those who are joking me, imitating me. We... Last time, when I was going in Africa, I stopped for few minutes in Athens. Some of the younger residents chant, "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" You see? As soon as they saw us, they began to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. They could understand, "These are Hare Kṛṣṇa people." Yes. So by their dress, by their tilaka, they oblige others to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, either for imitating or for joking. So they gain. But if Hare Kṛṣṇa chanting has got any effect, even by joking like that, he'll get gain. If it is actually spiritual, by simply joking he will get gain.
Revatīnandana: In Manchester across the street from the temple there's a big park. Sometimes I would go over there to walk and chant rounds, and there's many little children in the park. They'd follow me, "Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa!" All day. Hundred times.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Everywhere. In Bombay, everywhere we go, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." In Montreal. They joke, they'll clap, but they'll chant. And that is wanted. I want to see that everyone is chanting. And if chanting has effect, then either he's chanting jokingly or seriously it will have the effect. Fire, if you touch either jokingly or seriously or cautiously, it will act. So our request is that you also preach this cult. Let us cooperate. The whole world is suffering for want of God consciousness. So it is the duty of all religious sects to teach this simple art of chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa or any other name which you have got. That's all.
Revatīnandana: They have got this prayer, "Lord Jesus have mercy on me, a miserable sinner." And she was showing me they have a, almost like japa beads. Show him.
Guest (1): You see, here.
Guest (1): We do it in some, together, in the orthodox church. And we take turns doing two hundred.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Guest (1): And... These are for counting.
Guest (1): "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us."
Prabhupāda: Oh, what is the wording?
Guest (1): "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us."
Prabhupāda: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God..."
Revatīnandana: "Have mercy on us."
Guest (1): It's a little prayer.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Guest (1): And they also pray to the mother of God.
Prabhupāda: Sinful? "We are sinful?" You say, "sinful" something? "Forgive some sins" or something like?
Haṁsadūta: "Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy on us." That is the prayer.
Guest (1): And you say it in your own language.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. "Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, have mercy on us." That's nice. Very good.
Guest (1): (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: That is nice. Now, the, by praying, it is expected that one should have mercy of God. So what is the test that he has got the mercy of God?
Guest (1): The mercy of God is the love of God, isn't it?
Prabhupāda: That's it. Mercy of... So... That is the test, that he has learned how to love God. Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu is also worshiped, that "You can give love of God." Kṛṣṇa prema-pradāya te. Namo mahā-vadānyāya. "You are the most munificent of all incarnations because You are distributing love of God." Kṛṣṇa-prema-pradāya te [Cc. Madhya 19.53]. Kṛṣṇāya kṛṣṇa-caitanya-nāmne. "You are Kṛṣṇa in the form of devotee of Kṛṣṇa. So I offer my respects." This is Rūpa Gosvāmī's prayer.
Guest (1): Do you find that you chant, it clarifies you?
Prabhupāda: Yes, certainly. God and God's name, and God or God's son, they are nondifferent. So either I be in touch with God's son or God's name, I am in touch with God. But they are nondifferent.
Guest (1): What happens to your mind? What do you do with your mind when you chant?
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be in my mind, it doesn't matter. My mind may be different.
Guest (1): Where does it have to be? It has to be fixed?
Revatīnandana: What will the mind be doing?
Haṁsadūta: While chanting.
Revatīnandana: What should the mind be doing?
Prabhupāda: My mind should be absorbed in God consciousness. That is, that is the effect. He can think of God only, nothing else. That is the effect.
Guest (1): It's very difficult to think of God.
Prabhupāda: No. It is not difficult. It is difficult for the sinners. Those who are not sinners, it is not difficult. Because in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said:
yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
One can chant the holy name of the Lord if one is free from all sinful activities. A person who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. Therefore we ask our students, first discipline is that he must not have illicit sex life, he must not eat meat, he must not take any kind of intoxication, he must not indulge in gambling. Because these are sinful activities. So if one is engaged in these sinful activities, he cannot concentrate. It is impossible. One who is sinner, he cannot concentrate his mind on God. So voluntarily we should give up these sinful activities. Then it will be possible.
Guest (1): There's a lot more ...sins than just those four things.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These are the four principles of sinful activities.
Guest (1): If you're irritated with somebody.
Revatīnandana: She says if you're irritated with somebody, this is also a sin.
Prabhupāda: No, that is...
Guest (1): Your mind can be filled with this kind of sin.
Prabhupāda: Irritated... If your mind is in peace... If you are not indulging in intoxication, gambling, illicit sex, then your mind will not be irritated. How a gambler can be in peaceful mind? That is not possible. How a drunkard can be in peaceful mind? Agitation is for them who are simply engaged in sinful life. Those who are not engaged in sinful life, naturally they are peaceful. Their mind is not agitated. Vegetarians are naturally peaceful. Just see between a dog and a cow. (laughter). Dog unnecessarily will talk: "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" (makes barking sound) without any fault. "Why you are here? Why you are here? Why you are here?" That is dog's qualification. A cow, so useful animal, it will never agitate. The dog has no use, but still he's the best friend. (laughter) And cow, actually giving us milk, sending to the slaughterhouse. Just see. This is human civilization. A dog is worshiped, and a cow is slaughtered. Do you think it is civilization? Do you think? Can you support this?
Guest (1): Well, I had a friend who was a vegetarian...
Prabhupāda: No, apart from this, these two animals. One is dog, and another is cow. So dog is worshiped and cow is sent to the slaughterhouse. What kind of civilization it is? Huh?
Prabhupāda: Less than! Cow is supporting the whole society with milk. Every morning, without milk, we cannot live. The child, without milk, cannot live. She should be treated as mother. And they are being sent to the slaughterhouse. And still, they are thinking of becoming free from sinful life. Can anyone kill his own mother? "Oh, mother is old and useless. Let her be killed. Burden." Is that very gratitude for the mother by the son?
Revatīnandana: They do that. As soon as the cow is too old to give milk, immediately slaughterhouse. I was talking to one man, he was a cowherdsman here in England. He said he couldn't stand it. He said a nice cow, she would get old, she couldn't give milk anymore, immediately slaughterhouse. Just like that. The most disgusting thing.
Prabhupāda: (people coming in) Oh. You come forward. Give him seat. Śivānanda, you come... You can sit there. Yes. So the God consciousness can be awakened if you stop sinful activities. Otherwise, it is impossible. You go on preaching for millions of years; there will be no God consciousness. There will be no God consciousness. That is the... in Bhagavad-gītā. (people sitting down) Why? You can come here, this side.
Haṁsadūta: You can sit here.
Prabhupāda: Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ [Bg. 7.28]. One who has finished sinful activities, he can be engaged in God consciousness. One who is engaged in sinful activities, he cannot. Devil citing scripture. A devīl cannot cite scripture. Angel can cite scripture. And according to our ācāryas, Sanātana Gosvāmī, he says that "Don't hear scriptures from the devīl." Avaiṣṇava-mukhodgīrṇaṁ pūtaṁ hari-kathāmṛtaṁ śravaṇaṁ naiva kartavyam." If a devīl's preaching about God, don't hear." If you say, "God is pure, so let me hear about God. It doesn't matter whether he is devīl or angel. It doesn't matter." No. The argument is sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. Just like milk is very nourishing food, but if it is touched by the lips, by the tongue of a serpent, it becomes poison. Sarpocchiṣṭaṁ payo yathā. You cannot bring the milk which is touched by the serpent's tongue. So we should receive knowledge of God, message of God, from a person who is not a devīl. Then it will be effective. Otherwise, it will act as poison. Caitanya Mahāprabhu's principle is āpani ācari prabhu jīveri śikṣāya. He first of all behaves himself, and then he preaches. So if the preacher is sinful, how he can deliver other sinful men by his so-called preaching. That is not possible. He must be pure, he must be sinless. Then his preaching will be effective. But in all conditions, if we, with faith and love we chant the holy name of God, we shall become gradually purified. There is no, I mean to say, cause of anxiety. Anyone who will chant this holy name, he'll be purified.
Revatīnandana: That line, jaya sakal vipod bhaktivinod bolen jakhon o nām gāy.
Prabhupāda: O nām gāy, yes.
Revatīnandana: All obstacles will go away if you chant the holy name.
Prabhupāda: According to Bhagavad-gītā, there are four classes of men who deride at God and four classes of men who approaches God.
Atheist class of men, who are always engaged in sinful activities, and therefore fools... They don't believe in the next life. Therefore they are fools. There is next life. They say, "Oh, we don't care for next life. Let us do whatever we like." That is a foolish proposition. Because there is next life. Just like a man he becomes irresponsible. He says, "I don't care for government or law. I can do whatever I like." That means he's risking his life. As soon as he'll be arrested, he'll be punished. Therefore he's mūḍha, rascal. Anyone who is defying the kingdom of God, he's a rascal. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Narādhamāḥ, is lowest of the mankind. God consciousness is meant for human beings, and if a person defies God, then he's the lowest of the mankind. māyayāpahṛta-jñānā. His knowledge has been plundered by the illusory energy. He may be academically a very big title holder, but if he's not God conscious, then his knowledge has been taken away. Real knowledge has been taken away. Asuriṁ bhāvam āśritāḥ. These are the symptoms of the atheist class of men. So on the whole, at the present moment, God consciousness must be spread if actually they want peace and prosperity. And those who are in charge of religion, religion means God consciousness. Everyone should combine to spread God consciousness. That is the immediate necessity at the present moment.
Guest (1): People find it very difficult today...
Prabhupāda: It is not difficult. It is just like this, I gave you this example. Three years or two years before it was difficult. And it is not difficult. It has to be trained.
Guest (1): For people outside.
Revatīnandana: People outside, she says, they find it difficult even to believe in God now.
Prabhupāda: No, therefore propaganda is required. They are rascal fools, but we are not rascal and fools. We must preach.
Guest (1): Well, you can't preach until you are purified.
Prabhupāda: Eh? No, purification will go on. Suppose you are... Just like we are holding, what I... I began this propaganda in the Western countries. I was sitting in a park, Thompkinson's? What is that?
Revatīnandana: Thompkins Square.
Prabhupāda: Thompkins Square in New York. I was simply chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, and they used to gather. And gradually, they became my disciples, students. So I began in this way, chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare... For three hours, from two to five. That's all. And they are still doing that. They are going on the street. This Hare Kṛṣṇa, the same thing, is going on. They are being arrested sometimes. They are being harassed. But still, they don't give up. They chant. This boy in Germany, I sent in Germany. He sat down on the footpath and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. This boy. Practically, he started my European movement, he started first.
Guest (2) Gentlemen: Have you been harassed in London at all?
Prabhupāda: I don't think, but they are Londoners. They know better than me.
Devotee: Yes, we have been harassed many times. We have been arrested and left from the prison about twelve o'clock, one o'clock in the night, and then we were far from that place to here.
Devotee: When was that?
Revatīnandana: The last time was a week ago. (laughs)
Guest (2): Would you say that the Americans are generally less tolerant than Londoners to you or more tolerant?
Revatīnandana: America or here?
Guest (2): Yes. Which is the worse and which is the better?
Prabhupāda: America is more tolerant, I think.
Devotee: More tolerant. (laughs) America is more tolerant. But they're not arresting now, you see, and wherever they go, they chant freely, but here almost every week we are arrested on the streets and harassed.
Guest (2): Is it because possibly because you are less well known over here than in America?
Revatīnandana: No. Because a very conservative legal system and obsolete laws, like that.
Guest (1): What law can arrest you?
Devotee: Well, we fought this out in the court here and the magistrate allowed that we can chant. There is no law who can stop chanting. But the police, authorities, they say, well, "You are obstructing the traffic." And under that we are arrested.
Prabhupāda: They can find out anything.
Devotee: An excuse. It's an excuse.
Revatīnandana: "Blocking the traffic, disturbing the peace..."
Haṁsadūta: Anyway, the original purpose of America was to have religious freedom. Therefore they left England.
Revatīnandana: There is constitutional guarantee...
Haṁsadūta: So they still have some respect for people who are trying to glorify God.
Prabhupāda: In American in every court case, we win. (laughter)
Revatīnandana: Well, we lost here several times.
Devotee: Last, year, when we went to the police authorities for our procession here, and we wanted to make three rathas and the police officer, he was so envious, he said, "No. There is no law, we can put three rathas on the street." We said, "What is the harm? Won't you give us protection?" "So many people will be dying and killed under the ratha. If the ratha is so big and all that. People will be killed." I said, "They are big all over the world. This is for God consciousness."
Prabhupāda: So many people are dying by motor accidents, but do they stop motor car?
English guest: Do you think the situation will get better in London.
Guest (2): You do?
Guest (2): Say, if the average London policeman, if he could be convinced to chant.
Revatīnandana: Convinced? No. Some of them are less hostile, some of them more hostile, naturally. We can chant on one side of Oxford St., but we cannot chant on the other side of the street because there's two different police departments. It's like that. There is no hard and fast way to figure it out. You just have to try it and see.
Devotee: One night at Picadilly Circus we were eight and four were arrested, and four other people, no, they let them go. So I said, "No, I was arrested." (laughter) When they went to the court, Prabhupāda, they got one pound five each... They were altogether eight, and four were arrested. They also doing the same offense. It is same offense. So he said, "All right, let them go."
Guest (2): Can I ask about your rate... about growth? How, can ask how the movement is growing? Can you give me any figures at all? I was speaking to one of your colleagues earlier who mentioned 150, but seventy-five approximately which were in London. Are the figures growing week by week?
Prabhupāda: Yes. I started this movement alone, and now there are eight thousand.
Guest (2): I'm talking about in Britain.
Revatīnandana: Same thing. Yes, every few days somebody joins.
Guest (2): Can you tell me how many of those actually stay?
Haṁsadūta: Oh, 99% stay.
Guest (2): And what is the figure likely to be? Five a week, ten a week?
Prabhupāda: We don't keep any statistics, but actually the fact is that I started alone; now we are eight thousand.
Guest (2): I'm sorry, I didn't quite get that...
Haṁsadūta: Five years ago, Prabhupāda, he came to New York with these kartāls, and he began alone by sitting in a park underneath a tree chanting this very same Hare Kṛṣṇa, which you see the boys on Oxford St. chanting. And now there are eight thousand students all over the world, and approximately a hundred centers. At that time, Śrīla Prabhupāda didn't even have a place for himself. But now he has a place in every major city.
Guest (2): You used the word "student" here. You're referring to this as...
Haṁsadūta: Yes, because it's an education. This is a spiritual education.
Guest (2): This doesn't tie up with the figure that I've been given, though, 150. There must be more than that.
Haṁsadūta: No, we're talking about around the world.
Guest (2): But you would accept there's 150?
Haṁsadūta: Yes, in England.
Guest (2): No, five years ago.
Prabhupāda: In 1966.
Haṁsadūta: In 1966.
Prabhupāda: No, England we started in 1968.
Devotee: That 150 is those who have fully dedicated their life, but there are thousands who are followers and admirers who have not joined here.
Prabhupāda: They are admirers.
Devotee: They are admirers and they are... there are thousands of...
Guest (1): Encouraging people to chant the name of God in their own religion.
Guest (1): You don't have to change your religion. Like we are Christians. In the orthodox church, they say that (indistinct)
Guest (2): To be a member you don't have to change your religion? Is this a fact?
Guest (1): To be a member, here a member here, you do, don't you? Or do you?
Revatīnandana: To live in this temple you have to take up fully our principles and take up our activities of preaching work and like that. But to practice these things outside, even in one's own religion, without changing the basis of his belief, he can simply devote himself to God in these ways. And if one is young and not so attached, he can take it up fully. He can take it up in part, or he can take it up... And religious system, there are names of God. You simply chant it.
Guest (2): (indistinct) an associate member if you like.
Guest (1): I've only just (indistinct) asking about it.
Revatīnandana: Everyone is a member...
Guest (2): If you're a member, you have to practice the whole thing obviously. [break]
Revatīnandana: Everyone is a member of this movement. But some people have forgotten. Our movement is to remind them. Every living being is by nature a servant of God. Now people are forgetting. We want them to remember. We don't care for some difference of technique in worship. We want people to take up the business of chanting the names of God.
Prabhupāda: Just as in the same family some of the sons have forgotten father and some of them remember, but both of them member of the same family. Because he has forgotten his father does not mean that he is not son. He still remains. So actually, everyone is a member of God's family. That is our vision. Not only human being, but animals also. We therefore consider animals also brothers. We don't support animal killing.
Guest (1): (indistinct) in your four principles.
Revatīnandana: We follow strictly these four principles. Just like this: no animal killing, no eating of animal foodstuff including meat, fish and eggs; don't take any kind of intoxicant, even tea, coffee.
Guest (2): You're still on number one?
Revatīnandana: No, that's number two.
Guest (2): Let me get number one first. No animal killing, yes?
Revatīnandana: And no animal slaughter, no taking of animal foodstuffs including meat, fish, or eggs.
Guest (2): No animal foodstuff.
Guest (1): Not milk.
Revatīnandana: Milk we have, surely. We don't have to kill the animal to take the milk. Meat, fish and eggs we don't take. No intoxications of any kind.
Guest (2): You're on number two now.
Revatīnandana: Number two. No intoxication. That includes even tea, coffee, cigarettes, very strictly. No gambling.
Guest (2): You're on three now.
Revatīnandana: Number three, no gambling. And number four, no illicit sex life. That means no sex life whatsoever outside of marriage. And in marriage, sex life is to beget children and raise them to love God. So we follow these four principles very strictly. In this way we purify our lives and then we can develop spiritual emotion of love of God.
Guest (2): Uh, let's look at the... I quite see these four principles. I wonder if one could look at it slightly from a positive side. You said no animal killing, slaughter and no intoxicants.
Revatīnandana: These are four "nos."
Guest (2): Yes. Fine. Fine. Let's look at the "yes's." What exactly can you eat?
Revatīnandana: We can eat anything: fruit, vegetables, milk products, grains, sugar, nuts, all kinds of vegetable foodstuffs.
Guest (2): Broadly speaking, anything that comes out of the earth.
Revatīnandana: Yes. And we can eat it after it's been offered to the Lord with love and devotion. This we call prasādam or Kṛṣṇa's mercy.
Prabhupāda: Actually, any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Any foodstuff is Kṛṣṇa's, God's mercy. Just like grain. You cannot manufacture grain. It is by God's mercy you get it.
Guest (2): Have you any view on food that's been (indistinct) insects are killed, insecticide? Sort of thing?
Haṁsadūta: No, our point is to get the nicest foodstuff available and prepare it nicely for Kṛṣṇa, offer it to Kṛṣṇa, and then distribute it. That is the point.
Guest (2): I quite appreciate with respect the clause on alcohol. I'm puzzled, though, why anything on cigarettes. I'm puzzled about tea and coffee frankly.
Revatīnandana: Stimulants and depressants of all kinds, mild or strong, doesn't make any difference. You're taking a stimulant or a depressant, or a cigarette or a drink of coffee. It will agitate your mind with a chemical.
Guest (2): So what can you drink?
Revatīnandana: Milk, water, fruit juices, so many things.
Haṁsadūta: If you don't get cigarettes, you won't die. If you don't get cigarettes...
Guest (2): Oh no, no, I wouldn't question that.
Haṁsadūta: That's the point. They are unnecessary, artificial.
Guest (1): We're so used to tea and coffee.
Guest (2): Gambling I understand. The attitude to sex and so on is really fundamental to the Catholic attitude, isn't it?
Guest (1): But does the Catholic church allow tea?
Guest (2): I was talking about basic, those who are involved in...
Revatīnandana: It's fundamentally a God conscious attitude, that this body, this human body is meant for spiritual realization. The fact that the body has got sexual desire, therefore we make a concession for that. We use it for begetting good children. If one wants to marry, he can marry and have good children, and raise them to love God. But the real purpose of human life is not just to enjoy sex life like the cats and dogs. Human life has got a higher purpose. So therefore we believe that our human energy should be utilized in that way, for reducing the eating, the sleeping, the sex life. Reducing these things to the minimum, as much as necessary, rather than as much as possible. And having as much as necessary, that leaves most of our time and energy for cultivating our God consciousness. See what I mean? Therefore the idea is that sex life is the highest happiness for man, we don't subscribe to that. It's the biggest happiness in this material world. But spiritual life means unending happiness. A human being can experience this. The dog or cat can't. So for them there is eating, sleeping, sex life, defending themselves. But a human being can experience higher pleasure in God consciousness. So we think that... Therefore we use our energy in that direction.
Guest (1): So it isn't a negation of pleasure, but it's a higher pleasure.
Guest (2): Can I ask...
Prabhupāda: This is very important point, that we are not negating pleasure, but we are trying to bring them to the highest pleasure.
Revatīnandana: She made this observation, that this is not to stop our enjoying, but this is higher enjoyment.
Guest (2): When you come into this movement, you come in from on the outside, in the material world and so on. Do you, as some monks do in monasteries, do you give all your wealth, all your possessions, everything, as it were, to the movement?
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. Why?
Revatīnandana: Not necessarily. But generally yes. Because we're coming here to serve Kṛṣṇa and we understand that everything is Kṛṣṇa's. So whatever we come with is automatically Kṛṣṇa's, so we use it in His service.
Prabhupāda: Actually, we don't possess anything. Everything is Kṛṣṇa's. What we possess, so-called possession, that is illegal. Because I cannot possess your property. I can possess your property by stealing. Not by fair dealings.
Guest (2): So it's a voluntary thing, really?
Guest (1): I can possess it if you give it to me.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is nice. So that is our philosophy. Tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā [Īśo mantra 1]. Whatever God has given you, you possess. Don't try to possess other's property. Mā gṛdhaḥ kasya svid dhanam. Everything belongs to God, so whatever God gives me, you enjoy it. I take it. I don't encroach upon other's property.
Guest (1): You use your own, responsibly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I should feel grateful. "Oh, God has given me this thing, so whatever utility is there, first of all I must offer to God." God has given me this grain to eat, so I must cook and first of all offer to God, and then I shall eat." This is feeling gratitude, grateful.
Guest (1): Would you use, say, cars if it were given you?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Haṁsadūta: If someone gives us an automobile would we use it?
Revatīnandana: Things like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, why not?
Revatīnandana: Just like this tape recorder.
Prabhupāda: Because originally, everything is possession of God.
Guest (1): If you had a big house, a rich house. You would use that?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We shall turn into temple.
Prabhupāda: Immediately. (laughter) We are searching after. If you can give, it will be very much...
Guest (1): To put beautiful things in it?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Wherever we shall go, we cannot go without God. So if we get a palatial house, immediately make a very gorgeous, nice temple, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and dance. That's all. We can utilize anything. Because everything is belonging to God. So as soon as we get something, we utilize it for God. That is our philosophy.
Guest (1): Who controls, if one of the members becomes grasping, wants things for himself...?
Prabhupāda: No, what... We are therefore teaching. We are therefore teaching. Members are gradually learning how to sacrifice for God. So when he is completely trained up, he knows that nothing belongs to Him. Everything belongs to God. Therefore, whatever he possesses, it must be utilized for God's purposes. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or God consciousness. We take it for granted, and that is a fact. Everything belongs to God. God, whatever God has given me for my use, so I must use it, first of all expressing my gratitude to God, "O God, You are so kind that You have given me this. So first of all you taste it. Then I'll eat." This is our philosophy.
Guest (1): What about pleasures like listening to music?
Prabhupāda: Yes, we chant the glories of God.
Guest (1): Could you listen to other peoples' music?
Prabhupāda: Huh? No. If he's chanting the glories of God, we are very eager to hear him. That is our process. Or somebody's chanting, somebody's hearing. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇu. Chanting and hearing about God, that is music.
Guest (1): Well, a Beethoven symphony, for example, could you listen to that?
Prabhupāda: Which one?
Revatīnandana: Beethoven's symphony. He means classical Western music. They make some music.
Prabhupāda: But if it is glorification of God, we can hear. There is no objection.
Revatīnandana: But there may be no reference to God in it.
Prabhupāda: No, then we don't hear. We reject.
Guest (1): Inspired by God, given by God.
Prabhupāda: Given by God is everything. That is another thing. Just like everything is government property. But do you like to go to the prisonhouse? We say everything belongs to government. We are not so liberal, that "Because everything belongs to government, therefore I shall go to the prisonhouse."
Guest (2): I'm sorry, I didn't get that.
Guest (1): I take everything is good because it belongs to God, but you do choose, in fact, or you wouldn't choose to waste your time when you should be doing something else.
Prabhupāda: But for God's cause we can go. Just like these boys are sometimes arrested and put into jail. That is God's cause. But they are not prepared to go to the jail by pickpocketing. That is not their mission. They are executing God's business and if somebody puts him into jail, "All right. It is God's desire. That's all."
Revatīnandana: The point is that there must be direct connection with God. If God's name is there, if God's service is there, if God's form is there, then we are interested.
Guest (1): Well, if you're relaxing, if you need to relax, and you sit and listen to some music, it doesn't say praise God all the time, but in fact is, because it's beautiful.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't accept anything beautiful without God. Without God, everything is ugly to us. Everything ugly.
Guest (1): So you have to bless it by offering it to God first.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another thing.
Revatīnandana: Just like we have so many beautiful songs and melodies and everything. They're very nice. And we sing these songs. They are glorifying the Lord. And we enjoy like that. Music is there, everything is there, but because it is directly in the devotional service of God, therefore there is this bhakti, there is this devotion there. Devotion to God. Without that, everything becomes void. Tasteless.
Guest (2): Can I get one point straight? Is the Beethoven symphony all right provided it is blessed as an object and a work of art. Is it then all right? Or is it not all right because it doesn't use religious themes?
Haṁsadūta: Originally, music and art were employed only to glorify the Lord in the scripture and...
Haṁsadūta: Gradually, if you study our history, music history, God was left out. Just like you will see landscapes, and there's nothing in there about God. It was left out. But originally the landscape, there was some depiction of the activities of God or His representative.
Guest (2): So a Beethoven symphony is not all right.
Haṁsadūta: It's not a matter of Beethoven symphony. Art means to glorify God. If God is in the... Just like this picture. There is a mountain, there is sky, but what is the point there? The point is Kṛṣṇa. There's a book, but the point is the spiritual master. Here's a landscape, but the point is Kṛṣṇa.
Guest (2): The original point I'm trying to get at...
Haṁsadūta: If there is some music, you must hear something about God's activity.
Guest (2): But suppose that was a beautiful landscape on its own, just the landscape, then it's worthless?
Revatīnandana: Limited and temporary enjoyment only. Limited and temporary enjoyment.
Guest (2): But you accept that the temporary enjoyment is there, would you?
Prabhupāda: Now, even there was no God's picture, one who is God conscious, he can see in the natural scenery presentation, he can see, "Oh, how God is artistic. How he has manufactured this flower, how he has painted, how He has made this tree." So that is higher intelligence. That is higher intelligence. Because without God, there can be nothing existing. So one has to learn how to see God in everything. That is another thing. That is higher status. Yes. But in the lower status of God consciousness one is advised that you should not see anything without God. But in the higher status, there is nothing in the world which is without God. But we should not imitate the higher status of life in the lower status of our position. Otherwise, one who has learned about God, he can see God in this flower. Actually, how God's hand has worked out this nice flower. Just like in the Bhagavad-gītā God says, raso 'ham apsu kaunteya [Bg. 7.8]. Just like I am drinking water. In the taste of the water I'll see God. God says, Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the taste of the water." And actually, that taste cannot be created by man. The taste in the water, that is God's gift. So as soon as I taste the water, immediately I should remember, "Oh, here is God."
Guest (1): So we believe that the holy spirit empowers artists and composers. And therefore we would say that a symphony was a creation of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Creation... In everything there is hand of God. Therefore one who has learned to see everything in connection with God, he sees God everywhere, every moment. (knock) Yes? Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. Premāñjana cchurita [Bs. 5.38]. When one has developed love of God, he sees God everywhere, always. Because everything is creation of God; so he can find out, "Here is my Lord. Here is my Lord. Here is my Lord." That is the highest state of loving God. He cannot see anything without connection of God.
Guest (1): It's a matter of attitude who created this (indistinct)
Guest (1): It's a matter of your attitude.
Prabhupāda: Not attitude. Development of my God consciousness. Attitude may be artificial. But it is actual development of God consciousness. God consciousness is there in everybody. It requires simply to be developed. Just like a child. A child has got love within her, within his heart. But when he is young, it develops. It develops. And the girl, boy, automatically becomes attached because that propensity has developed. It is not an artificial thing. It was already there. It has to be developed. So God consciousness is there in everyone's heart. Otherwise, how these boys are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa? Unless Kṛṣṇa was there within. Artificially you cannot force them, chant Hare Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours.
Guest (1): Do you believe you (indistinct) people, if they hear it? If they hear this?
Prabhupāda: Yes. As they hear, they became purified, and that dormant consciousness becomes awakened. Yes. Awakened. That chance we are giving. We are chanting and others are hearing. By this process, chanting and hearing, both of us will be benefited, awakening our original God consciousness.
Revatīnandana: At the stage of awakening, when you're waking up, when you're becoming cured of the diseased condition, you sometimes have to restrict your diet. Later on, when you are healthy, you can take all kinds of foodstuffs in the proper way. But while you're getting over a disease you have to restrict your diet. Therefore we hear things that are directly concerned with Kṛṣṇa's name, form, activities. Later on, then we'll be able to see God in a flower, God in everywhere. Otherwise we'll see the flower however we enjoy a flower because we're not at that healthy stage. So therefore there are regulations that we follow for curing the disease. That means for a little while we restrict the diet. Then when we're healthy...
Prabhupāda: Just like these flowers. These flowers the devotees are bringing to their spiritual master, to God. They are not enjoying. Ordinary man, if he gets a flower, he'll put it in the pocket. How... You see? That is the difference of God consciousness. The flower is the same, but use is different.
Guest (2): What's your view, if I may ask, on, for emotion in, of, an ideal, a Christian ideal and so on through the media. Will you use television and radio to condemn things like racial intolerance and the Vietnam War? Do you believe that you should become involved in these things? Could you issue a statement and say that the movement condemns so and so? Do you believe getting into anything in the world spectrum to comment on things?
Revatīnandana: Do you follow the question, Śrīla Prabhupāda? His question is do we concern ourselves with particular problems in the world, there's the war in Vietnam, there's racial discrimination? Do we make statements to condemn this war or to condemn that discrimination?
Prabhupāda: No. Thing is that there are so many problems. Our proposition is, when you become God conscious, then all problems automatically solved. We don't take the problems. We take the... Just like disease. There are many symptoms. A man is suffering from a particular disease. He has a headache, he has this pain, this pain, that pain.
Guest (1): You go down to the heart of the matter.
Devotee: To the root cause.
Guest (1): They're only symptoms.
Prabhupāda: These are all different symptoms of the society's being materially diseased.
Guest (1): Society isn't saved in a month by individuals, (indistinct) the reality in each person. It's more than an example.
Devotee: Pour the water to the root cause and in every leaf it goes.
Guest (2): So the answer is you do not comment on it?
Prabhupāda: Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahād guṇā [SB 5.18.12]. If one is Godless, he cannot have any good qualities.
Revatīnandana: Supposing somebody has got smallpox. Smallpox means sores appear on the body and very high fever also. So one doctor who's less intelligent says, "He's got a fever because he has sores." So he puts medicine on the sores. Sores go away and the man dies. Another doctor says, "He's got sores and a fever. This means he has got smallpox." So he gives him some medicine to cure the disease, and then the sores automatically go away. The root cause of all... There are so many troubles in the world. The root cause is Godlessness. People are not God conscious. If that is there, it will automatically put everything in the right perspective and everybody will be able to live harmoniously and peacefully because they will be satisfied and happy in themselves. Then they can live together peacefully and happily. Otherwise, it's all artificial attempts, and the patient will die when you just treat the symptoms. That's happening. For hundreds of years there's been wars and things. There have also been peace movements. Have the peace movements stopped the wars? It hasn't happened. Because they... With one side they're trying to stop the sickness, on the other side they're fanning the sickness, they're stimulating, like in materialistic activities. There's got to be a basic change of heart. Then things can change in detail.
Guest (2): But you will not comment on the details themselves.
Revatīnandana: Sometimes, if it has relevance for preaching work.
Guest (1): Do you think it would not be helpful to say that there's no comment. To say that the whole of mankind is one and we're treating the disease in the human heart (indistinct) You can't do it by an overall (indistinct)
Revatīnandana: Yes, I agree. (indistinct)
Guest (1): We condemn wars but we fight each other. We are covetous on all different coarse levels. Until we've cured that in our own heart, we can't have the faith to say, "God, stop this war."
Revatīnandana: There's a saying, "charity begins at home." (end)
August 15, 1971, London
Prabhupāda: Simply we shall sell retail in our saṅkīrtana. Let them sell to the bookstore. We shall not sell a single copy to the bookstore, or wholesaler. We shall simply sell in our saṅkīrtana party. In this way arrange...[break]
Śyāmasundara: ...weekend festivals from town to town?
Prabhupāda: Town to town. What do you think this idea Huh? Continue engagement. And as many men may join us, we can accommodate them. Every country. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. I got this idea, one king, (indistinct), the grandson of Prthuraya, this Mahārāja Prithu, he performed so many yajñas that on the surface of the earth, there were only kuśa grass scattered. Yajña, they require kuśa grass. Kuśa grass. So all over the world it was simply scattered, after yajñas, I have given my comment in this. Similarly, we shall perform this saṅkīrtana yajña all over the world, town to town, town to town. Now we have got GBC all over the world. Let them organize. What they'll do? Organize yajña after yajña, yajña after yajña. So that as at the present moment even if we go somewhere, are known to: "Hare Kṛṣṇa!" They say. The whole world will say, "Hare Kṛṣṇa." Either jokingly or serious, it doesn't matter. Let them joke, criticize them, "Hare Kṛṣṇa," still they will have the effect. Still they will have it. In the Nṛsiṁha Purāṇa there is an instance that a Mussulman was attacked by, what is called? Boar having...
Parivrājakācārya: Tiger? Boar. A wild boar.
Prabhupāda: A wild boar. So when the boar attacked him the Musselmans, when they do not like they say, "Haram. Haram." Condemn means haram. So when the boar attacked him he said haram. "Haram!" But it acted, ha rāma, and he got salvation. Do you follow what I say? A Mussulman said, 'ha ram. Ha ram He condemned. It is abominable. That is the meaning of Urdu, haram. But at the time of death, when the boar attacked him, he said, "Haram." So it acted ha rāma. Ha, he rāma. It acted, chanting the name of Rāma, Hare Rāma. He meant something else, but it acted as beneficial as chanting He rāma. So therefore this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, either you chant seriously, or those who are criticizing us, jokingly, the effect will be same. So anyway let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Do you follow? Even they do not take it seriously, if they imitate, joke, still they'll be benefited .
Parivrājakācārya: Should these be straight saṅkīrtana, no... Should these be...
Prabhupāda: Well, they... As we install our Deity and chanting, dancing, offering ārati. This interests.
Parivrājakācārya: Not electric guitars and all that.
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Parivrājakācārya: Good. Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Electric guitar, if it is, they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa only, nothing else, then it is all right. But as far as possible, simply mṛdaṅga and kartāl. But if GBC thinks that it attracts more people so they give contribution, that is a different thing. Otherwise there is no need.
Parivrājakācārya: I think nothing can attract like mṛdaṅgas and karatālas.
Prabhupāda: That is practical, we have seen.
Parivrājakācārya: When we put guitars, it waters it down. It doesn't have the same effect.
Prabhupāda: All GBC members should organize like that. Then everything will be all right. And sell books. Now you... What is the name? Maṇḍalībhadra, he is slow. So you translate.
Haṁsadūta: Okay. Because there are others, they are competent. I have others, they are competent.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Simply you check that they are not writing nonsense.
Haṁsadūta: Oh yes. That I can do.
Prabhupāda: That's all. And print it and distribute. And another thing. If you can print yourself, it is all right, But if you want printing cost from the general book fund, then whatever you sell you deposit there. You deposit and take, deposit and take, deposit and take. Then when, even if you have no money you'll get money. And then you deposit. But if you spend it, then you cannot expect from the general book fund.
Haṁsadūta: No, no. I'm already doing that with them.
Haṁsadūta: Whatever they print for me, or whatever Bali prints for me, I pay him and I pay 100% mark-up so that there can be some money.
Prabhupāda: So in this way organize and distribute literature, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa saṅkīrtana yajña. Then our mission will be successful. Accha, here, they are coming, so we shall make a committee, London building fund committee. In that committee, Mr. Arnold and his wife... [break] ...nicely and organize responsibly. So that can be done provided they have got their own men. Why he's not training the Africans? He should train.
Parivrājakācārya: He hasn't got very many Africans. I think only about two.
Prabhupāda: Then suspend that installation.
Parivrājakācārya: They haven't been making any devotees there.
Prabhupāda: Then there is no... [break] ...and if we conquer our eating then we can conquer our sleeping also. Nidrāhāra vihārakādi vijitau **. [break] Don't make fuss. If you are serious, then it is all right. Otherwise, you are young men. If you again give up sannyāsa or you try to marry, it will be scandalous for our society. Don't do that. If you are steady... But so far report is you are not very steady. Do you admit this or not?
Kulaśekhara: Yes. Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Then how you can take sannyāsa? It is a very great responsibility. [break] There is no need of taking sannyāsa. If you are sincere in preaching you can do in this dress. Where is the harm? Simply by changing, taking a rod, you'll not become God immediately. You have to work, steadily. What is there in sannyāsa? Do you mean to say taking a rod one becomes sannyāsa? Sannyāsa means you must be sacrificing everything for Kṛṣṇa. That is sannyāsa. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī [Bg. 6.1]. Sa sannyāsī, he's sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti. You went to Israel but again came back. Why? What was the difficulty?
Kulaśekhara: Well, there's no activity there Prabhupāda. I got attacked on the street. I got very sick and I was attacked on the street when I was on saṅkīrtana.
Prabhupāda: Do you like to go to Africa? It is warm country.
Kulaśekhara: Yes Prabhupāda. That would be nice.
Prabhupāda: So you can go. You can go. And you know Deity... [break] ...and if it is sufficiently left, then she doesn't require further. Otherwise add something. But she'll take after the husband. My mother was doing. Yes. The remnants of foodstuff left by the husband will be taken by the wife. That means if the husband does not eat, she'll not eat. So those things are now dream only. (laughs) Impossible. Just like small child, If he follows the father, catching the hand of the father, she is always safe, he is always safe. Now your so-called independence has spoiled the social life. You know he was married. Where she is now?
Kulaśekhara: Oh, she left. We haven't seen her since she left. I don't know where she is. Three years ago. When she left, Śrīla Prabhupāda, she took some drugs and...
Prabhupāda: Drug is killing the whole Western nation. You will be spoiled, you will be finished with this drug habit. You are already finished. America is finished. They cannot do anything anymore. Neither industrialists nor big scholars, neither big fighter. Anything. Simply spoiled. The only shelter is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Pāpi tāpi yata chilo harināme uddharilo. They can be only saved by this process. They have no other... otherwise they are going to hell. All Americans, the so-called puffed up materialist. This is a fact. So if you want to do service to your country, introduce this Kṛṣṇa consciousness to the younger generation. They will be saved. You be saved and save your brothers. And otherwise this poison, this intoxication, heroin, cocaine, and LSD and this and marijuana, finished everything. But if you become steady in one life without deviating for māyā, then you make solution of all problems. That is the duty of human being . Instead of suffering this repeated birth and death, one life sacrifice. What is that sacrifice? What is inconvenience to live nicely, avoiding these four rascal habit, taking Kṛṣṇa prasādam, and chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and reading all these nice books. Where is the difficulty? Nice life. First class life. Wherever you will go you will be respectable. Anyone will worship you.
Śyāmasundara: Materialistic life is so bothersome. All the time some trouble.
Prabhupāda: Just like in hog civilization. That's all. They are thinking that "We are very happy eating stool." But others know that what kind of happiness he is enjoying. Similarly these rascal karmis, materialists, they are thinking by... What is called? Kini...What is called? Naked skirt?
Prabhupāda: Miniskirt, trying to show the private part and people will be attracted and she will be happy. This is regular prostitution. Regular prostitution. Still they are not getting husband. Even they walk naked... That will come. Say after fifty years it will come like that.
Śyāmasundara:They are starting already some places, walking naked.
Prabhupāda: And the law is you cannot marry more than one wife. The rascal lawgiver. So many women, there must be... One husband, at the present moment, must marry at least one dozen wives, otherwise they're going to hell. At least, she will know that "I have got a husband." Maybe the husband of twelve wives, but they are anxious to have a husband. That facility should be given to them. They are anxious.
Parivrājakācārya: But they don't want to have any children.
Prabhupāda: That is next program. Why not? Now we are having our wives, so many children. Los Angeles full of children. So natural way should be accepted. They require husband. The law is, "No. You cannot have more, you cannot marry one wife." The girls have become prostitute. That's all right. "The girls are becoming prostitute. That's all right. But you cannot marry more than one." What is this?
Śyāmasundara: They have contraceptive pills even for young children.
Kulaśekhara: One barrister, one of the top judges in England, a top man, top doctor, he said children should have sex life at fourteen. He said this in the newspaper two days ago. He said children at fourteen should be allowed to have sex life. He said this should be made legal. He's a top doctor or judge.
Śyāmasundara: Children should be allowed to have sex life at fourteen years old.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is psychological. They develop... Sex life, sex urge is there as soon as twelve years, thirteen years old, especially women. So therefore early marriage was sanctioned in India. Early marriage. Boy fifteen years, sixteen years, and girl twelve years. Not twelve years, ten years. I was married, my wife was eleven years. I was 22 years. She did not know what is sex, eleven years' girl. Because Indian girls, they have no such opportunity of mixing with others. But after the first menstruation, the husband is ready. This is the system, Indian system.
Śyāmasundara: So they are not spoiled.
Prabhupāda: No. And the psychology is the girl, after first menstruation, she enjoys sex life with a boy, she will never forget that boy. Her love for that boy is fixed up for good. This is woman's psychology. And she is allowed to have many, oh, she will never be chaste woman. These are the psychology. So these rascals, Westerners, they do not know and they are becoming philosopher, scientist, and politician, and spoiling the whole world. They can be saved only by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. There is no other way. Otherwise they will lick up their skyscraper building and everything will go to hell. We have seen in New York, so many houses fall down. In New York. Yes. So many. Simply garbage. I have studied. Simply full of garbage. Nobody is going to take care. And the boys and girls loitering in the street as hippies. This is a very, very, bad sign. You see? No home, home neglected, no regular life. The whole nation will be spoiled. It is already spoiled. The poison is already there. Fire. Now it is increasing. Just like you set fire, it increases. So that fire is already there.
Śyāmasundara: And the Russians and the Chinese, they are training to take over. They are marching, practicing war.
Śyāmasundara: In Russia we noticed every day they're practicing for war, young people, marching.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. In China too, marching, ready to take over.
Kulaśekhara: When we were in New York, one boy...
Prabhupāda: No, there will be fight. That is the prediction of great politician. There will be war between these Communist and anti-Communist. There are two parties now. The anti-Communist will be defeated. The Communists will come out victorious.
Śyāmasundara: We don't want to fight. None of our boys want to fight.
Prabhupāda: They also do not want fight but they are forced. They do not want to fight. Because they're... Kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. In the Kali-yuga everyone is śūdra. What he'll fight? Fighting is not the business of a śūdra. It is meant for the kṣatriya. And nobody is being trained as kṣatriya or brāhmaṇa. Everyone is being trained as śūdra or utmost vaiśya, how to make money. That's all. One class of men is being trained how to serve and get some money, another class is being trained how to make money by exploitation. That is capitalist and communist. The communists are the śūdras. They are protesting that "You are exploiting us and getting money. It must stop." That is Communism. Is it not? And the vaiśyas, they are trying to exploit others. Some way or other bring money. So there are these capitalists and śūdra and vaiśya. There is no kṣatriya, there is no brāhmaṇa. Therefore the whole social structure is lost. So we are trying to create some brāhmaṇas. And people if follow our instruction then whole social structure is again revived. Hare Kṛṣṇa. So we have got very serious mission. Don't be fickle. When you have come and sacrificed your life for the mission, don't be fickle. Be very steady and capture Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet tightly. You'll never be attacked by māyā. Otherwise as soon as you give up Kṛṣṇa, māyā is ready. Just like side by side there is sun... shadow and light. If you push little from light then go to shadow. This is already side by side māyā and Kṛṣṇa. So as soon as you forget Kṛṣṇa-māyā. As soon as you give up māyā, then Kṛṣṇa. (pause) So Pradyumna is transcribing everyday?
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He doesn't work here. He works over at the library, British Museum.
Prabhupāda: Where is that?
Śyāmasundara: Just down the street.
Prabhupāda: He takes them.
Śyāmasundara: I don't know. I guess he does. He's gone all day. Every day he's gone. He says it's too disturbing to work here, too crowded.
Prabhupāda: That may be.
Śyāmasundara: I think he's doing it by longhand, writing it out because he doesn't take a typewriter.
Prabhupāda: So make arrangement, whatever thoughts are coming I am giving you. Ārati is finished?
Śyāmasundara: In about two or three minutes. Five. You'll hear a conchshell.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere this class must be there, morning evening class. Either it is festival or temple. If you go on simply festival, you don't require to start many centers.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Starting more centers is not necessary.
Śyāmasundara: We have the big cities covered. If people want to go and join us they can go to the big city and join.
Prabhupāda: Because opening center means so much responsibility.
Śyāmasundara: So much. Land...
Prabhupāda: So better open. Deity will be there. Just like Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja is doing. Install the deity for one week. You know everything. You have done in Calcutta, Bombay and other. Same thing. You were in Allahabad also?
Devotee: Yes, I was there.
Prabhupāda: Allahabad, Gorakhpur. So same thing. And for persons spiritually inclined, for them this traveling is very good. Traveling means with this occupation. It is very good. You'll be more popular and there will be no difficulty, mind will be steady.
Śyāmasundara: It takes away our attachment for everything materially.
Prabhupāda: The Gosvāmīs, they did not stay underneath a tree for more than one night. So you decide; then you do the needful.
Haṁsadūta: When should we arrange for Śivānanda's fire ceremony?
Śyāmasundara: We should have initiation too, first initiation.
Haṁsadūta: Do it all the same.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. So we'll consult Pradyumna and find a good time, calendar, on the...
Prabhupāda: Any day. (end)
August 17, 1971, London
Prabhupāda: They will be visible in due course of time.
Śyāmasundara: What he was telling me was that the table itself has a jīva soul, that the table is a person.
Prabhupāda: No no.
Revatīnandana: So that's what I was asking. 'Cause I said, "Does the table have a jīva soul?" I was trying to ask that question.
Śyāmasundara:That's what completely threw me off. I thought, "Oh..." That means the table is a person, this is a person, this is a...
Prabhupāda: A particular jīva soul was in that body. Then it is also proved that every jīva soul is individual. Although they are living combinedly, everything is individual.
Revatīnandana: Well, doesn't... That's all right then. Now the...
Prabhupāda: But that one jīva soul was prominent. He was visible. Others were in dormant condition. This proves that every individual soul is separate from the other; still, they can remain together. Just like the sunshine, they create... a small shining particles, combined together, molecules. So everything is combined spirit particles.
Haṁsadūta: Everything that we see around us, everything.
Prabhupāda: Everything. Sarvam idam khalv idaṁ brahma. Everything is Brahman. But when they are covered, that is called material exis...
Śyāmasundara: Each jīva is...
Prabhupāda: Just as sunshine is not covered, it is called cloudy. But this light, whatever light you are seeing, that is also sunshine. That is not different from the sunshine. And above the cloud, there is bright. So matter means when it is covered by something, it is matter. That covering is unconsciousness. That covering is also created of the sunshine, by the same energy. And then, by the same energy it is dissipated also. So the conclusion is living being, when it is covered by ignorance, that is material.
Revatīnandana: But this, the body itself is sort of a manifestation of ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. When the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body.
Revatīnandana: Then I know that I am not this body. Then I know that I am not this body. Now, the question is...
Prabhupāda: Then I am not ignorance.
Revatīnandana: Then there is some distinction, between the nature of the soul and the nature of the body.
Prabhupāda: That distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya.
Revatīnandana: The distinction between the soul and the body?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything. We distinguish matter and spirit. That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya bhedābheda tattva, inconceivable one and different, simultaneously.
Śyāmasundara: When you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a living entity with a small body. Each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance?
Śyāmasundara: It takes a small body made out of matter.
Prabhupāda: But that body means ignorance. Śarīra avidyā jāla. This body is nothing but a network of ignorance.
Śyāmasundara: So then myself, I organize all these smaller cells. I organize them into my big body.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. You try to understand. Covered by something. The same example. The sunshine is there, it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally, the sunshine is everything. Is it clear?
Śyāmasundara: So how do I create matter that is my body? How do I create...
Prabhupāda: You are creating. You are creating actually.
Śyāmasundara: By eating and...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be. By your energy you are creating. This body is my creation. Just like I am the soul, I am here within this body. So I cut my hair; it is again growing. I do not know how I am creating, but I am creating. My nail is growing—I am growing, I am creating. But I do not know. That is ignorance.
Revatīnandana: Sometimes people ask...
Prabhupāda: These questions are not to be discussed in public. These are very higher understanding. For public should be, "This is matter, this is spirit." That's all.
Revatīnandana: Yes, but one of the devotees asked me one time, "Why it is that when the body is dead that the fingernails continue to grow."
Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Never grows.
Revatīnandana: Huh? They just play like that. And observe.
Prabhupāda: It decomposes.
Revatīnandana: But they say hair continues to come out sometimes from dead bodies.
Śyāmasundara: I think you said once ... You answered that sometimes the fan turns a little bit after the plug.
Revatīnandana: Yes. Mechanism, bodily mechanism has pulled the plug. That's what I said. Some material mechanism is still functioning like a machine.
Prabhupāda: It has stopped, but maybe just like the fan is stopped, but still moving. Like that.
Revatīnandana: So there are many different manifestations of energies. It is the oneness that they're all Kṛṣṇa's energies. But there is also diversities.
Prabhupāda: Therefore we say acintya bhedābheda. You cannot clearly distinguish. It is one and different, at the same time. It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that.
Śyāmasundara: Somehow or other, we create our own ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Everything is like that. Everything is spirit but at the same time, not spirit. Just like Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni [Bg. 9.4], "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that everything is in Kṛṣṇa? How Kṛṣṇa is not there? He says like that.
Revatīnandana: Yes. He says because you can't see Him there.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Kṛṣṇa, that is matter.
Śyāmasundara: I want to clear this up. Just like this table. It is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one...
Prabhupāda: Atom. Millions of atoms. But Kṛṣṇa says, "I am within the atom." So how you can say Kṛṣṇa is not there?
Revatīnandana: Not as plenary expansion.
Revatīnandana: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion.
Prabhupāda: A plenary expansion that is also. Jīva is also plenary expansion.
Revatīnandana: Plenary? I thought plenary means...
Prabhupāda: Not plenary. That is also expansion. It is called vibhinnāṁśa. Svāṁśa, vibhinnāṁśa. Viṣṇu-tattva is svāṁśa and vibhinnāṁśa. Both of them are part and parcel.
Revatīnandana: Plenary means full portion.
Revatīnandana: So svāṁśa is plenary.
Revatīnandana: And vibhinnāṁśa is part of plenary.
Revatīnandana: So the presence of Kṛṣṇa in the atom, it is vibhinnāṁśa.
Prabhupāda: No. Both of them there.
Revatīnandana: Both of them? In the atom.
Devotee: Kṛṣṇa is not alone there.
Prabhupāda: Whenever the Kṛṣṇa is there, the, everything must be there. (laughter)
Haṁsadūta: But in the Brahma-saṁhitā it says that He is present in every atom in His complete fullness.
Prabhupāda: This brain will not accommodate. But as soon as the king is there you must know the king is with his ministers, secretaries, everything. How you can say the king is alone there.
Revatīnandana: You said also in the heart Kṛṣṇa is not alone. Every...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuṇṭha paraphernalia. That is acintya.
Śyāmasundara: But this body of a table, it's not an individual personality is it? There's not one jīva soul in charge of this table.
Revatīnandana: In other words the table itself is not a person, but within there are many persons.
Revatīnandana: Living entities, germs, like that are in the...
Prabhupāda: God is also there.
Revatīnandana: And Kṛṣṇa is there.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is also... Everything is there. But actually, it is Kṛṣṇa, but we cannot see. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. The whole cosmic manifestation is Kṛṣṇa but it appears it is different from Kṛṣṇa. Idaṁ hi viśvaṁ bhagavān ivetaraḥ. This is acintya-bhedābheda. So unless we accept the thesis or philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different... Inconceivable. For us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable, acintya. But from theoretical or by logical conclusion, everything is one: Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair I am. I am the hair, but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like that. This is called acintya-bhedābheda, inconceivable.
Revatīnandana: A related question also: just like there is at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction, then, between the spirit...
Prabhupāda: That distinction you cannot make clear.
Revatīnandana: I know. But still it's, not clear, but clear, there is some distinction, where a distinction...
Prabhupāda: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction.
Revatīnandana: Yes, simultaneously.
Prabhupāda: Simultaneous. Now, which one will we accept? Therefore inconceivable.
Śyāmasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both.
Revatīnandana: Everything is related in Kṛṣṇa.
Revatīnandana: Yes. But there's also, amongst the related things. There are related things because there is also diversity amongst them.
Prabhupāda: Must be.
Revatīnandana: That's right. In preaching, in the movement, that there is no diversity between the jīva souls who are living...
Prabhupāda: But there is diversity. Why not?
Revatīnandana: And the brahmajyoti. They are saying...
Prabhupāda: Brahmajyoti is combination of jīva soul. And brahmajyoti is emanation from Kṛṣṇa. Brahmajyoti is coming from Kṛṣṇa. This is a function. Heat is coming constantly, incessantly, from the fire. But still, heat is not fire. You cannot say heat is fire. Fire is far away.
Revatīnandana: That's right. So the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahmajyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jīvātmās that are forming the living entities?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is comparison, a small spiritual spark. That's all. We are spark. So long it does not develop a body... That body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage. He wants to enjoy. So, so long he has forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter.
Śyāmasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other?
Prabhupāda: No. He is spirit, spiritual identity already. But as we are developing material body, similarly we can develop spiritual body.
Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jīva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen.
Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.
Revatīnandana: That follows?
Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.
Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahmajyoti you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.
Śyāmasundara: So they become separated.
Haṁsadūta: And Śrīla Prabhupāda, in the spiritual world, everything is composed of cintāmaṇi, just like here everything is composed of atoms. So suppose someone develops a spiritual form in the spiritual sky. That form, I mean, that cintāmaṇi, they are living entities also? Are they conscious entities or is that an expansion of the jīva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy with Kṛṣṇa, is that an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency?
Prabhupāda: That you consider. That we imagine.
Haṁsadūta: That's why I'm asking. Or like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form.
Prabhupāda: In one sense it is right. They are spiritual molecules. Yes. Here also, spiritual molecules, but here it is called material because there is no sense of Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: Forgetfulness. They are covered by ignorance.
Revatīnandana: The cowherd boy with Kṛṣṇa, he is also vibhinnāṁśa expansion. Correct?
Revatīnandana: But he's remembering. He is remembering, therefore he is...
Prabhupāda: He may not remember.
Prabhupāda: Just like when cowherds boy were playing, they did not know Kṛṣṇa is God. They did not know. They did not care to know.
Revatīnandana: Yes, but they love Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: The love is there. When the love is there, that is spiritual.
Revatīnandana: Yes. And then they are not fallen. That is not fallen.
Śyāmasundara: They're not separated any more.
Prabhupāda: That you should understand. Not that remembering or not remembering. Even in the spiritual world, they do not know that Kṛṣṇa is God.
Revatīnandana: The thing that was bothering me when I thought of this, that the brahmajyoti, if it is jīvas, that they're all fallen souls, then I thought...
Prabhupāda: Fallen anywhere. When Kṛṣṇa is forgotten, that is fallen.
Revatīnandana: Yes. But what I thought was just like in a room there is so many particles of light. Already inconceivable. And, then the whole brahmajyoti is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable...
Prabhupāda: Not so fallen as they are in the matter.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Separated.
Revatīnandana: But not in their constitutional position.
Prabhupāda: They're not as fallen as those who are in this material.
Revatīnandana: That's right. But still if they go there, they will sometimes come back here again.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They are not pure. They are not pure. That is stated in the Bhāgavata. Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Aviśuddha. Aviśuddha means not purified.
Revatīnandana: Are they less fallen because they are doing some service by lighting it up?
Prabhupāda: It is clearly stated: aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Aviśuddha. Buddhi means intelligence, aviśuddha means unclean, contaminated.
Revatīnandana: Unclean intelligence. So they realize...
Prabhupāda: They think that they have become liberated, but śāstra says "No, it is not yet liberated." Aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ. Still there is contamination.
Revatīnandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. If there they also, to some extent they also fall. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then...
Prabhupāda: Ananta. You cannot say how many. Ananta. Anantāya kalpate. Ananta means unlimited number. There is no question of counting.
Śyāmasundara: Our brain is so tiny.
Prabhupāda: Therefore acintya. Therefore acintya, inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Don't try to understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply try to love Him. That is perfection. That's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can understand. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand Himself. Yes. (laughter) He's so acintya. And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Kṛṣṇa, how to serve Kṛṣṇa. That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Nobody can. Kṛṣṇa Himself cannot understand.
Revatīnandana: The more we understand, the more we can convince others.
Prabhupāda: No. Better you understand this, that you cannot understand. This understanding is better.
Revatīnandana: No, but what I said is that...
Prabhupāda: That "I cannot understand," this understanding.
Haṁsadūta: Then you have to give up. Then just simply love Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is real understanding, that "Kṛṣṇa cannot be understood. Simply let me love as far as possible, as I can, whatever is my, in my capacity." That is perfection.
Revatīnandana: Yes. But still, we deal with this philosophy for...
Prabhupāda: Yes. On the whole, as Kṛṣṇa says, we can understand that. That's all. You cannot understand Kṛṣṇa fully. It is not possible.
Revatīnandana: But even... Just like this book, this is for convincing people. This book is for convincing them to understand.
Prabhupāda: No, still, we understand better than them.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is not understandable does not mean that we are also as fool as they are. Rather, Kṛṣṇa is so big that He is understandable even by us, and what to, about these rascals. What you can understand? We cannot understand. This should be the position, that "We are constantly serving Kṛṣṇa, we cannot understand Him. And what, rascal, you can understand?" The attitude should be taken like that.
Haṁsadūta: We just accept whatever Kṛṣṇa says...
Prabhupāda: That's it.
Haṁsadūta: That's a fact and that's all. And we serve Kṛṣṇa. In the material sense, people try to understand a thing without, by inspecting it.
Prabhupāda: Without knowing his capacity. He has no capacity, still, he wants... And when he's caught that "You have no capacity," "No, I am trying. I am trying." He won't say that "I have no capacity."
Śyāmasundara: Or "I will understand."
Prabhupāda: "I will understand."
Śyāmasundara: "In the future."
Revatīnandana: So we always try to understand as far as possible. And then when we don't understand...
Śyāmasundara: Yes. We can't extend it any further by our own...
Prabhupāda: No. Don't try to extend also.
Śyāmasundara: Like that business about the soul in the table. I just completely changed everything we've done so far.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura said that "Whatever I heard from my guru, that is my life. That's all. Let me execute that."
Revatīnandana: That was semantics. That was word usage. That's why we got confused. And now I can clear up the confusion I stirred up. Thank you very much.
Haṁsadūta: But I have one more question Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: On the light.
Haṁsadūta: In our world here, there are material scientists and they understand things in a particular way. They understand, for instance...
Prabhupāda: Their way and our way is completely different.
Haṁsadūta: I know. But I mean, there must be... Suppose, on the heavenly planets, there must also be a class of men who understand things...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Anywhere within this material world, they are all conditioned souls. Their understanding is incomplete. Even Brahmā. Even Brahmā. Brahmā has admitted in his prayers that people..."Other rascal may say that he has understood You, but for my part, I say I never understood You." He has said like that. Have you read this portion? So even Brahmā cannot understand. What we? He says, "The other rascals may say." Where is that Brahma-stotra? In the first part, find out.
Haṁsadūta: No. It's in the Process of Creation isn't it?
Prabhupāda: No, no. In Kṛṣṇa Book. Where is that...? This is second part. I say always that...
Śyāmasundara: Second part?
Prabhupāda: That is Volume Two. No, no. It is not in Volume Two.
Revatīnandana: It's in Volume One, when Brahmā kidnaps the cowherd boys. When I went to Paris, they had gotten all confused. Someone was thinking that Brahmā, Lord Brahmā is not a pure devotee, because...
Prabhupāda: In one sense, not. In one sense.
Revatīnandana: By his behavior sometimes...
Prabhupāda: No, no, behavior... Because he is in the material world, he wants to lord it over. But a pure devotee has no such desire.
Haṁsadūta: But at the same time, he appeared as Ṭhākura Haridāsa in this world. So Brahmā, he appears as Ṭhākura Haridāsa with Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Revatīnandana: Does he become a pure devotee? Otherwise how he can see Kṛṣṇa and reveal Brahma-saṁhitā? Also he's the head of our disciplic succession. That's why I said, "No. He's a pure devotee." How can he be the head of our disciplic succession if he's not a pure devotee?
Haṁsadūta: He says, "My dear Lord, people may say that I am the master of all Vedic knowledge and I am supposed to be the creator of this universe. But it has been proved that I cannot understand Your personality, even though You are present before me just like a child. You are playing with Your boyfriends, calves and cows, which might imply that You do not even have sufficient education. You are appearing just like a village boy carrying Your food in Your hand and searching for Your calves, and yet there is so much difference between Your body and mine that I cannot estimate the potency of Your body. As I have already stated in the Brahma-saṁhitā, Your body is not material." He says, "Even though You are standing before me, I cannot..."
Haṁsadūta: He says, "Even though You are present before me just like a child, I cannot understand." So people they think they understand it only when God is nowhere near.
Prabhupāda: No, this is the position. Even Brahmā cannot understand; what we can understand? So without bothering ourself... Jñāne prayāsam. Jñāne prayāsam means endeavor to understand. Namanta, give up this practice. Jñāne prayāsam udapasya namanta eva. Just become submissive. Submissive means that "We cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Simply let us serve." That's all. And develop your dormant love. That is perfection.
Haṁsadūta: In the Bhagavad-gītā Kṛṣṇa also, He says to Arjuna, "What need is there of all this knowledge? Just know that with one spark of My splendor I am pervading everything."
Prabhupāda: That's all. How He is doing that, it is very difficult to know. (pause) Jñāne prayāsam udapasya namanta eva san-mukharitaṁ bhavadīya-vārtāṁ jīvanti. [break] ...in temple you'll have to sleep. Yes. So also keep it in mind that unless there are four, five devotees experienced, we should not center, open a center. Because alone he becomes polluted. Without any association, he thinks otherwise and becomes fallen down. That which has happened to Kṛṣṇa dāsa. When he was alone, he could not manage. There was debts and he became disgusted. You see.
Haṁsadūta: What about, Prabhupāda, in Germany, I have, like for instance, in Munchen, in Munich...
Prabhupāda: At least, must be two, three men; otherwise don't open.
Haṁsadūta: Yes, there are two, three men, but I visit them regularly.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Visit. Keep them alive. "Simply because we have opened a center, the business is finished." No. You must keep them alive. Alive means this morning class must go on, evening class must go on, there must be regular program for prasāda distribution. Busy. That is alive.
Revatīnandana: And they must also study your books.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise, so many Indian temples or churches, they think, "The church is there; everything is finished." No. Why people are losing interest in church? There is no preaching. Neither do they know what is preaching. They simply think that "This building will attract people." So they are now on sale.
Revatīnandana: In Calcutta it was like that. Everywhere we attract people with the Deity worship, but we hold them with the lectures.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Come on. So how you were allowed to enter?
Śivānanda: Oh, it was all right. No difficulty. No difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Last time you had difficulty.
Śivānanda: No. Last year it was all right also. But before that it was...
Prabhupāda: Before that. So what news?
Śivānanda: Nice place in Heidelburg. Kṛṣṇa gave us a very nice temple there.
Prabhupāda: Your health is all right?
Śivānanda: My health is fine.
Prabhupāda: Thank you. You are the pioneer of European activities.
Prabhupāda: From Montreal, you were pushed. Yes. And from San Francisco, Gaurasundara was pushed to Hawaii. (chuckles) So Śivānanda Prabhu was also pushed from Montreal. So Kṛṣṇa is very much pleased. And Sudama was pushed to Japan. Now, anyway, that pushing has not become unsuccessful. (end)
Conversation with Journalists
August 18, 1971, London
Prabhupāda: So far I am personally experienced, in our childhood there were not so many problems. Now India is faced with so many problems on account of imitating Western civilization.
Guest: Not simply because of the increased population?
Prabhupāda: There is no question of increased population. This is, I say always, this is foolishness.
Guest: That's foolish?
Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say "increase of population," it is a proposal of foolish persons.
Guest: Oh, so someone, someone who's foolish...
Prabhupāda: No. Even the... Just like the birds and beast, they are also increasing their population. Yes. If you find one hole in the room, millions of ants will come out. So who is giving their food? There are millions of elephants in the forest. Who is giving their food? There are millions and trillions... There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, eight million species are other than human being, and 400,000 species human being. Out of that, civilized persons are very few. And all the problems are in the civilized, so-called civilized population.
Guest: And that's because, you would say that we have the wrong...
Prabhupāda: No, I, I... We are believer in God. You see. So we know God is the original father. He is supplying maintenance for everyone. So there is no question of increasing population. If there is increase of population, God has enough resources to feed them. It is not the question of increasing population. But what is the question of demonic civilization.
Journalist (1): Well, I was going to ask you about that, civilization.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That demonic civilization is creating problems. Not the increase of population. This is not the fact. Now, so far I have studied, that in America, in Africa, in Australia, there are so much vacant places that the present population of the world, if it is increased ten times, still there is enough food...
Journalist (1): And you think there's enough food.
Prabhupāda: There is enough provisions. But we have made artificial divisions. "This is America." The Americans, they went from Europe, and they illegally occupied that place. Now they won't allow anyone to come there. Similarly, the Australians, they won't allow to come there. New Zealand, Africa. Why? Our philosophy: Everything belongs to God, and we are all sons of God. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. This is our philosophy.
Journalist (1): But the values of Western civilization have made that...
Prabhupāda: Western civilization created artificial. "This is Africa, this is America, this is Europe..."
Journalist (1): Yes. Therefore that's made living as children of God impossible.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the one son of God is not allowing the other son to come in. And that he hasn't got the right to forbid. Just like your father has got ten sons. So all the tens sons have got the right to use the property of the father. That is law. Similarly, all the living entities, not only human beings. Birds, animals, birds, beasts—everyone. This is called spiritual, or transcendental, communism. According to Vedic civilization, a householder has to see that even a lizard in the room is not fasting, to see whether it has got his food. Even there is a snake in the house, the householder is to see whether the snake has got his food. A householder would stand on the street, and before taking his food, he will say loudly, "If anyone is hungry, please come. Still I have got my food." And if there is no response, then he takes prasādam.
Journalist (1): That's a very difficult doctrine for many people in civilization...
Prabhupāda: Because... That is civilized. That is civilization. Animal civilization is that one dog, as soon as the other dog is coming: "Yow! Yow! Yow! Why you are coming? Why you have come?" Just like here. Here, everywhere. The immigration department, "Oh, how long you will stay? Oh." So many things. Why? A human being is coming... Vedic civilization is, even one is enemy, if he comes to your home, you receive him as, so friendly that he will forget that you are his enemy. Yes. That is...
Journalist (1): But it must be very difficult for you to...
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1971/aug