710817rc.lon
Room Conversation

August 17, 1971, London
Prabhupada: They will be visible in due course of time.
Syamasundara: What he was telling me was that the table itself has a jiva soul, that the table is a person.
Prabhupada: No no.
Revatinandana: So that's what I was asking. 'Cause I said, "Does the table have a jiva soul?" I was trying to ask that question.
Syamasundara:That's what completely threw me off. I thought, "Oh..." That means the table is a person, this is a person, this is a...
Prabhupada: A particular jiva soul was in that body. Then it is also proved that every jiva soul is individual. Although they are living combinedly, everything is individual.
Revatinandana: Well, doesn't... That's all right then. Now the...
Prabhupada: But that one jiva soul was prominent. He was visible. Others were in dormant condition. This proves that every individual soul is separate from the other; still, they can remain together. Just like the sunshine, they create... a small shining particles, combined together, molecules. So everything is combined spirit particles.
Hamsaduta: Everything that we see around us, everything.
Prabhupada: Everything. Sarvam idam khalv idam brahma. Everything is Brahman. But when they are covered, that is called material exis...
Syamasundara: Each jiva is...
Prabhupada: Just as sunshine is not covered, it is called cloudy. But this light, whatever light you are seeing, that is also sunshine. That is not different from the sunshine. And above the cloud, there is bright. So matter means when it is covered by something, it is matter. That covering is unconsciousness. That covering is also created of the sunshine, by the same energy. And then, by the same energy it is dissipated also. So the conclusion is living being, when it is covered by ignorance, that is material.
Revatinandana: But this, the body itself is sort of a manifestation of ignorance.
Prabhupada: Yes. When the ignorance is gone, then you have got spiritual body.
Revatinandana: Then I know that I am not this body. Then I know that I am not this body. Now, the question is...
Prabhupada: Then I am not ignorance.
Revatinandana: Then there is some distinction, between the nature of the soul and the nature of the body.
Prabhupada: That distinction is inconceivable. You cannot make clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya.
Revatinandana: The distinction between the soul and the body?
Prabhupada: Yes. Everything. We distinguish matter and spirit. That distinction is inconceivable by you. You cannot make a clear distinction. Therefore it is called acintya bhedabheda tattva, inconceivable one and different, simultaneously.
Syamasundara: When you said that, once before, that the cells, all the cells in our body, each one is a living entity with a small body. Each one of those living entities covers itself with ignorance?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: It takes a small body made out of matter.
Prabhupada: But that body means ignorance. Sarira avidya jala. This body is nothing but a network of ignorance.
Syamasundara: So then myself, I organize all these smaller cells. I organize them into my big body.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, when you are covered, that is material. You try to understand. Covered by something. The same example. The sunshine is there, it is covered now. That covering also creation of the sunshine. So therefore the covering has no separate existence. Originally, the sunshine is everything. Is it clear?
Syamasundara: So how do I create matter that is my body? How do I create...
Prabhupada: You are creating. You are creating actually.
Syamasundara: By eating and...
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. By your energy you are creating. This body is my creation. Just like I am the soul, I am here within this body. So I cut my hair; it is again growing. I do not know how I am creating, but I am creating. My nail is growingI am growing, I am creating. But I do not know. That is ignorance.
Revatinandana: Sometimes people ask...
Prabhupada: These questions are not to be discussed in public. These are very higher understanding. For public should be, "This is matter, this is spirit." That's all.
Revatinandana: Yes, but one of the devotees asked me one time, "Why it is that when the body is dead that the fingernails continue to grow."
Prabhupada: That is nonsense. Never grows.
Revatinandana: Huh? They just play like that. And observe.
Prabhupada: It decomposes.
Revatinandana: But they say hair continues to come out sometimes from dead bodies.
Prabhupada: Sometimes.
Syamasundara: I think you said once ... You answered that sometimes the fan turns a little bit after the plug.
Revatinandana: Yes. Mechanism, bodily mechanism has pulled the plug. That's what I said. Some material mechanism is still functioning like a machine.
Prabhupada: It has stopped, but maybe just like the fan is stopped, but still moving. Like that.
Revatinandana: So there are many different manifestations of energies. It is the oneness that they're all Krsna's energies. But there is also diversities.
Prabhupada: Therefore we say acintya bhedabheda. You cannot clearly distinguish. It is one and different, at the same time. It is spirit and not spirit. You have to take it like that.
Syamasundara: Somehow or other, we create our own ignorance.
Prabhupada: Everything is like that. Everything is spirit but at the same time, not spirit. Just like Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, mat-sthani sarva-bhutani [Bg. 9.4], "Everything is in Me, but I am not there." How is that everything is in Krsna? How Krsna is not there? He says like that.
Revatinandana: Yes. He says because you can't see Him there.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore matter means when our consciousness is covered to understand Krsna, that is matter.
Syamasundara: I want to clear this up. Just like this table. It is full of millions of living entities, but there's not one...
Prabhupada: Atom. Millions of atoms. But Krsna says, "I am within the atom." So how you can say Krsna is not there?
Revatinandana: Now you were also telling me that Krsna is in the atom as the jiva expansion.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Not as plenary expansion.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: Not as a plenary expansion, but a part of a plenary expansion.
Prabhupada: A plenary expansion that is also. Jiva is also plenary expansion.
Revatinandana: Plenary? I thought plenary means...
Prabhupada: Not plenary. That is also expansion. It is called vibhinnamsa. Svamsa, vibhinnamsa. Visnu-tattva is svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Both of them are part and parcel.
Revatinandana: Plenary means full portion.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: So svamsa is plenary.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: And vibhinnamsa is part of plenary.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: So the presence of Krsna in the atom, it is vibhinnamsa.
Prabhupada: No. Both of them there.
Revatinandana: Both of them? In the atom.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee: Krsna is not alone there.
Prabhupada: Whenever the Krsna is there, the, everything must be there. (laughter)
Hamsaduta: But in the Brahma-samhita it says that He is present in every atom in His complete fullness.
Prabhupada: This brain will not accommodate. But as soon as the king is there you must know the king is with his ministers, secretaries, everything. How you can say the king is alone there.
Revatinandana: You said also in the heart Krsna is not alone. Every...
Prabhupada: Krsna is never alone. With all paraphernalia, all Vaikuntha paraphernalia. That is acintya.
Syamasundara: But this body of a table, it's not an individual personality is it? There's not one jiva soul in charge of this table.
Revatinandana: In other words the table itself is not a person, but within there are many persons.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Living entities, germs, like that are in the...
Prabhupada: God is also there.
Revatinandana: And Krsna is there.
Prabhupada: Krsna is also... Everything is there. But actually, it is Krsna, but we cannot see. Idam hi visvam bhagavan ivetarah. The whole cosmic manifestation is Krsna but it appears it is different from Krsna. Idam hi visvam bhagavan ivetarah. This is acintya-bhedabheda. So unless we accept the thesis or philosophy expounded by Lord Caitanya, inconceivable one and different... Inconceivable. For us it is inconceivable. You cannot have any clear distinction. Therefore take it as inconceivable, acintya. But from theoretical or by logical conclusion, everything is one: Krsna. That's all. And another example is that the finger is myself, but I am not finger. This is the position. The hair I am. I am the hair, but I am not hair, at the same time. This is like that. This is called acintya-bhedabheda, inconceivable.
Revatinandana: A related question also: just like there is at the same time the oneness is there, there is distinction, then, between the spirit...
Prabhupada: That distinction you cannot make clear.
Revatinandana: I know. But still it's, not clear, but clear, there is some distinction, where a distinction...
Prabhupada: Distinction, there is distinction, there is no distinction.
Revatinandana: Yes, simultaneously.
Prabhupada: Simultaneous. Now, which one will we accept? Therefore inconceivable.
Syamasundara: You can't accept one or the other; you have to accept them both.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Everything is related in Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Yes. But there's also, amongst the related things. There are related things because there is also diversity amongst them.
Prabhupada: Must be.
Revatinandana: That's right. In preaching, in the movement, that there is no diversity between the jiva souls who are living...
Prabhupada: But there is diversity. Why not?
Revatinandana: And the brahmajyoti. They are saying...
Prabhupada: Brahmajyoti is combination of jiva soul. And brahmajyoti is emanation from Krsna. Brahmajyoti is coming from Krsna. This is a function. Heat is coming constantly, incessantly, from the fire. But still, heat is not fire. You cannot say heat is fire. Fire is far away.
Revatinandana: That's right. So the constitutional nature of the entities that naturally form brahmajyoti is the same as the constitutional nature of the jivatmas that are forming the living entities?
Prabhupada: Yes. It is comparison, a small spiritual spark. That's all. We are spark. So long it does not develop a body... That body is also the same. So it remains as spiritual spark. But because it is spirit, it cannot remain in that impersonal stage. He wants to enjoy. So, so long he has forgotten, he develops a body which is called matter.
Syamasundara: Or else he develops a spiritual body? One or the other?
Prabhupada: No. He is spirit, spiritual identity already. But as we are developing material body, similarly we can develop spiritual body.
Revatinandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I'm a jiva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I'm still fallen.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: That means all jiva souls there are also fallen souls.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: That follows?
Prabhupada: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Vibhinnamsa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnamsa. You can call it fallen.
Revatinandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahmajyoti you are forgetful still. Because you are... That is stated in the sastra, anadhrta yusmad anghrayah. Anadhrta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Krsna. That is forgetfulness.
Syamasundara: So they become separated.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hamsaduta: And Srila Prabhupada, in the spiritual world, everything is composed of cintamani, just like here everything is composed of atoms. So suppose someone develops a spiritual form in the spiritual sky. That form, I mean, that cintamani, they are living entities also? Are they conscious entities or is that an expansion of the jiva soul's own potency? Just like if someone develops the form of a boy, cowherds boy with Krsna, is that an expansion of his potency, of that living spirit soul's potency?
Prabhupada: That you consider. That we imagine.
Hamsaduta: That's why I'm asking. Or like in this world, so many living entities are forming of one spiritual form.
Prabhupada: In one sense it is right. They are spiritual molecules. Yes. Here also, spiritual molecules, but here it is called material because there is no sense of Krsna.
Syamasundara: Forgetfulness. They are covered by ignorance.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: The cowherd boy with Krsna, he is also vibhinnamsa expansion. Correct?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: But he's remembering. He is remembering, therefore he is...
Prabhupada: He may not remember.
Revatinandana: Well, he's with Krsna, he loves Krsna. Therefore...
Prabhupada: Just like when cowherds boy were playing, they did not know Krsna is God. They did not know. They did not care to know.
Revatinandana: Yes, but they love Krsna.
Prabhupada: The love is there. When the love is there, that is spiritual.
Revatinandana: Yes. And then they are not fallen. That is not fallen.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: They're not separated any more.
Prabhupada: That you should understand. Not that remembering or not remembering. Even in the spiritual world, they do not know that Krsna is God.
Revatinandana: The thing that was bothering me when I thought of this, that the brahmajyoti, if it is jivas, that they're all fallen souls, then I thought...
Prabhupada: Fallen anywhere. When Krsna is forgotten, that is fallen.
Revatinandana: Yes. But what I thought was just like in a room there is so many particles of light. Already inconceivable. And, then the whole brahmajyoti is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable...
Prabhupada: Not so fallen as they are in the matter.
Syamasundara: Yes. Separated.
Revatinandana: But not in their constitutional position.
Prabhupada: They're not as fallen as those who are in this material.
Revatinandana: That's right. But still if they go there, they will sometimes come back here again.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are not pure. They are not pure. That is stated in the Bhagavata. Avisuddha-buddhayah [SB 10.2.32]. Avisuddha. Avisuddha means not purified.
Revatinandana: Are they less fallen because they are doing some service by lighting it up?
Prabhupada: It is clearly stated: avisuddha-buddhayah. Avisuddha. Buddhi means intelligence, avisuddha means unclean, contaminated.
Revatinandana: Unclean intelligence. So they realize...
Prabhupada: They think that they have become liberated, but sastra says "No, it is not yet liberated." Avisuddha-buddhayah. Still there is contamination.
Revatinandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. If there they also, to some extent they also fall. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then...
Prabhupada: Ananta. You cannot say how many. Ananta. Anantaya kalpate. Ananta means unlimited number. There is no question of counting.
Syamasundara: Our brain is so tiny.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore acintya. Therefore acintya, inconceivable. (pause) Chant Hare Krsna. Don't try to understand Krsna. Simply try to love Him. That is perfection. That's all. You cannot understand Krsna. Nobody can understand. Krsna Himself cannot understand Himself. Yes. (laughter) He's so acintya. And what to speak of us. Therefore our only business: how to love Krsna, how to serve Krsna. That's all. That is perfection. You cannot understand Krsna. Nobody can. Krsna Himself cannot understand.
Revatinandana: The more we understand, the more we can convince others.
Prabhupada: No. Better you understand this, that you cannot understand. This understanding is better.
Revatinandana: No, but what I said is that...
Prabhupada: That "I cannot understand," this understanding.
Hamsaduta: Then you have to give up. Then just simply love Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is real understanding, that "Krsna cannot be understood. Simply let me love as far as possible, as I can, whatever is my, in my capacity." That is perfection.
Revatinandana: Yes. But still, we deal with this philosophy for...
Prabhupada: Yes. On the whole, as Krsna says, we can understand that. That's all. You cannot understand Krsna fully. It is not possible.
Revatinandana: But even... Just like this book, this is for convincing people. This book is for convincing them to understand.
Prabhupada: No, still, we understand better than them.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Krsna is not understandable does not mean that we are also as fool as they are. Rather, Krsna is so big that He is understandable even by us, and what to, about these rascals. What you can understand? We cannot understand. This should be the position, that "We are constantly serving Krsna, we cannot understand Him. And what, rascal, you can understand?" The attitude should be taken like that.
Hamsaduta: We just accept whatever Krsna says...
Prabhupada: That's it.
Hamsaduta: That's a fact and that's all. And we serve Krsna. In the material sense, people try to understand a thing without, by inspecting it.
Prabhupada: Without knowing his capacity. He has no capacity, still, he wants... And when he's caught that "You have no capacity," "No, I am trying. I am trying." He won't say that "I have no capacity."
Syamasundara: Or "I will understand."
Prabhupada: "I will understand."
Syamasundara: "In the future."
Prabhupada: Obstinacy.
Revatinandana: So we always try to understand as far as possible. And then when we don't understand...
Prabhupada: As far as we know from sadhu-guru-sastra. That's all. That is our understanding.
Syamasundara: Yes. We can't extend it any further by our own...
Prabhupada: No. Don't try to extend also.
Syamasundara: Like that business about the soul in the table. I just completely changed everything we've done so far.
Prabhupada: Therefore Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura said that "Whatever I heard from my guru, that is my life. That's all. Let me execute that."
Revatinandana: That was semantics. That was word usage. That's why we got confused. And now I can clear up the confusion I stirred up. Thank you very much.
Hamsaduta: But I have one more question Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: On the light.
Hamsaduta: In our world here, there are material scientists and they understand things in a particular way. They understand, for instance...
Prabhupada: Their way and our way is completely different.
Hamsaduta: I know. But I mean, there must be... Suppose, on the heavenly planets, there must also be a class of men who understand things...
Prabhupada: No, no. Anywhere within this material world, they are all conditioned souls. Their understanding is incomplete. Even Brahma. Even Brahma. Brahma has admitted in his prayers that people..."Other rascal may say that he has understood You, but for my part, I say I never understood You." He has said like that. Have you read this portion? So even Brahma cannot understand. What we? He says, "The other rascals may say." Where is that Brahma-stotra? In the first part, find out.
Hamsaduta: No. It's in the Process of Creation isn't it?
Prabhupada: No, no. In Krsna Book. Where is that...? This is second part. I say always that...
Syamasundara: Second part?
Prabhupada: That is Volume Two. No, no. It is not in Volume Two.
Revatinandana: It's in Volume One, when Brahma kidnaps the cowherd boys. When I went to Paris, they had gotten all confused. Someone was thinking that Brahma, Lord Brahma is not a pure devotee, because...
Prabhupada: In one sense, not. In one sense.
Revatinandana: By his behavior sometimes...
Prabhupada: No, no, behavior... Because he is in the material world, he wants to lord it over. But a pure devotee has no such desire.
Hamsaduta: But at the same time, he appeared as Thakura Haridasa in this world. So Brahma, he appears as Thakura Haridasa with Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Prabhupada: But Brahma, it does not mean Brahma cannot be pure devotee.
Revatinandana: Does he become a pure devotee? Otherwise how he can see Krsna and reveal Brahma-samhita? Also he's the head of our disciplic succession. That's why I said, "No. He's a pure devotee." How can he be the head of our disciplic succession if he's not a pure devotee?
Hamsaduta: He says, "My dear Lord, people may say that I am the master of all Vedic knowledge and I am supposed to be the creator of this universe. But it has been proved that I cannot understand Your personality, even though You are present before me just like a child. You are playing with Your boyfriends, calves and cows, which might imply that You do not even have sufficient education. You are appearing just like a village boy carrying Your food in Your hand and searching for Your calves, and yet there is so much difference between Your body and mine that I cannot estimate the potency of Your body. As I have already stated in the Brahma-samhita, Your body is not material." He says, "Even though You are standing before me, I cannot..."
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hamsaduta: He says, "Even though You are present before me just like a child, I cannot understand." So people they think they understand it only when God is nowhere near.
Prabhupada: No, this is the position. Even Brahma cannot understand; what we can understand? So without bothering ourself... Jnane prayasam. Jnane prayasam means endeavor to understand. Namanta, give up this practice. Jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva. Just become submissive. Submissive means that "We cannot understand Krsna. Simply let us serve." That's all. And develop your dormant love. That is perfection.
Hamsaduta: Is that why Krsna also says to Arjuna, He says, "What need is there of all this..."
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hamsaduta: In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna also, He says to Arjuna, "What need is there of all this knowledge? Just know that with one spark of My splendor I am pervading everything."
Prabhupada: That's all. How He is doing that, it is very difficult to know. (pause) Jnane prayasam udapasya namanta eva san-mukharitam bhavadiya-vartam jivanti. [break] ...in temple you'll have to sleep. Yes. So also keep it in mind that unless there are four, five devotees experienced, we should not center, open a center. Because alone he becomes polluted. Without any association, he thinks otherwise and becomes fallen down. That which has happened to Krsna dasa. When he was alone, he could not manage. There was debts and he became disgusted. You see.
Hamsaduta: What about, Prabhupada, in Germany, I have, like for instance, in Munchen, in Munich...
Prabhupada: At least, must be two, three men; otherwise don't open.
Hamsaduta: Yes, there are two, three men, but I visit them regularly.
Prabhupada: That's all right. Visit. Keep them alive. "Simply because we have opened a center, the business is finished." No. You must keep them alive. Alive means this morning class must go on, evening class must go on, there must be regular program for prasada distribution. Busy. That is alive.
Revatinandana: And they must also study your books.
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise, so many Indian temples or churches, they think, "The church is there; everything is finished." No. Why people are losing interest in church? There is no preaching. Neither do they know what is preaching. They simply think that "This building will attract people." So they are now on sale.
Revatinandana: In Calcutta it was like that. Everywhere we attract people with the Deity worship, but we hold them with the lectures.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Come on. So how you were allowed to enter?
Sivananda: Oh, it was all right. No difficulty. No difficulty.
Prabhupada: Last time you had difficulty.
Sivananda: No. Last year it was all right also. But before that it was...
Prabhupada: Before that. So what news?
Sivananda: Nice place in Heidelburg. Krsna gave us a very nice temple there.
Prabhupada: Your health is all right?
Sivananda: My health is fine.
Prabhupada: Thank you. You are the pioneer of European activities.
Sivananda: Yes.
Prabhupada: From Montreal, you were pushed. Yes. And from San Francisco, Gaurasundara was pushed to Hawaii. (chuckles) So Sivananda Prabhu was also pushed from Montreal. So Krsna is very much pleased. And Sudama was pushed to Japan. Now, anyway, that pushing has not become unsuccessful. (end)

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