Syamasundara: So the second person we'll discuss of the utilitarians is called John Stuart Mill.

Prabhupada: He was a great philosopher.

Syamasundara: He says that reason is essentially inductive, that is, if we can generalize from particular instances. For instance, we have observed that all men die, so we can say that all men are mortal.

Prabhupada: That's all right, but you cannot see all men in your whole life; therefore it is defective. You cannot study all men; therefore it is defective. Which is not possible by you, if you propose something which is not possible by you, then what is the meaning of this? What is the utility?

Syamasundara: You mean you cannot generalize from particular instances.

Prabhupada: Yes. You cannot generalize because your senses are limited, your life is limited. How you can study all men? You cannot go all countries where there are so many men all over the world, universe. You cannot test them. Therefore your method is defective. From his definition, that studying all menbut you cannot study. You can study a limited number of men. And if you conclude, suppose whoever you have met, you have seen that he has died. But I may say that you might not have seen a man who never dies. Then what will he accomplish?

Syamasundara: Well, since knowledge is limited to our experience...

Prabhupada: Yes. That's all right. If your knowledge is limited, then you cannot generalize. Therefore our conclusion is that we don't take knowledge from anyone whose power is limited. There are four defects of the ordinary manhe may be John Stuart Mill or somethingbecause he's to commit mistakes, he's illusioned. Just like he's talking of that induction, studying all men. This is an illusion. He cannot study. Suppose you have hundreds and thousands of men you have studied. That does not mean the whole set of human being is finished. That is, therefore, this theory is illusion. And because he's an ordinary man, he's illusioned that it is possible. So these are the defects. One commits mistakes, one is illusioned, one cheats. This is cheating also. The theory which he is putting forward is never possible to be executed, and still he's posing himself that he is philosopher. That is cheating. His senses are imperfect. He cannot do that. And still he proposes the theory. That is cheating. So these four defects are there: committing mistake, to illusion, to cheat others, and studying everything with imperfect senses.

Syamasundara: He has five methods for ascertaining knowledge.

Prabhupada: We have already proved that all his methods are defective.

Syamasundara: He says there are five ways. All knowledge, he says, is cause and effect. So he said we can determine what is the cause and what is the effect of anything according to these five methods. One is the method of agreement, that is, if we have two or more instances of a phenomenon and there is one common circumstance behind both of them, that we can conclude that that circumstance is the cause of the effect. Just like if we observe that two stones are thrown into the water, and that each stone is thrown by someone, then we can determine that throwing is the common cause of that stone's going into the water, the common circumstance.

Prabhupada: Why this example? What is the value of this example?

Syamasundara: Any example. Anything that is caused, if there are two instances of it-two balls are droppingwe can conclude, if we studied both of them, that they were both moved by some person, that that person is the cause of their falling. If there is a common circumstance for any phenomenon.

Prabhupada: Any phenomenon that has natural law, so that is the cause. And if we go on, so what is the cause of that natural law? Then ultimately we find Krsna. Everything, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], everything has got a cause, original source. So if you make actually research work what is the cause of this, what is the cause of this, that is called darsana. Darsana means seeing, finding out the cause. Therefore philosophy is called darsana-sastra, to see the cause of the cause, cause of the cause, cause of the cause. So ultimately they have found Krsna is the cause, original cause of everything.

Syamasundara: He is more interested, I think, in the immediate cause of something that is caused immediately by something else. Ultimately Krsna is the cause, but what about the immediate cause?

Prabhupada: Yes, immediate cause, we take, immediate cause. Immediate cause also we accept. So what is the conclusion? There is cause, immediate and remote. That we agree. But what is his proposition?

Syamasundara: His proposition is that we can study any instance of a phenomenon and find out the cause by applying these five methods: the method of agreement, then the second one is the method of difference. They're rather complicated.

Prabhupada: That means five causes.

Syamasundara: No. Five methods of studying something to find out the cause. Five tests to find out the circumstances behind the phenomenon, the instance of the phenomenon, to find out the cause.

Prabhupada: The final agreement.

Syamasundara: One is agreement, one is the method of difference. In other words, if we find two rocks, and one is thrown into the water, and the other remains standing still, that we can examine them both and find out that all circumstances for both of the rocks are the same except one, and that one circumstance which is different will be the cause. So say that we find out that both come from the same place, they are both sitting in a similar position, they are both at the same time, they are there, like that, but we find that one rock is thrown by someone and one rock is not thrown by someone. So we can say that the cause of the rock being thrown is the thrower, like that. That's a rough example.

Prabhupada: That means that to cause everything, there is, behind, a living entity. Just like there are so many rocks, they are not moving, but one rock moves because behind that rock, there is a living entity who pushes the rock.

Syamasundara: What about if it accidentally fell off; a thunderbolt hit the rock and it moved, like that, or gravity made it fall.

Prabhupada: Gravity, but when you say law of gravity, then the question is that somebody has made that law. Onewe should give, of coursethese materialistic philosophers... Just like when Ramacandra threw stones on the sea, the gravity did not work. It was floating. The rocks were floating. Therefore the law of gravity ultimately is made by the Supreme Lord. So he can change it. So my study of gravity is not final.

Syamasundara: One of the other methods of testing is called the method of concomitant variation.

Prabhupada: This method of studying the cause, so we take the ultimate cause of everything, with His full independence. The ultimate cause can do anything and everything beyond our calculation. There is cause, but the cause is so powerful that it is beyond our calculation how it is being done. Our knowledge is limited; therefore our calculation may be, may be or almost always, is not perfect.

Syamasundara: For instance, he observes if a ball being hit by a bat, it always moves. So he concludes that whenever there is circumstance of a bat hitting a ball, that the ball will always move.

Prabhupada: But the bat is hitting, it is caused by a living being. The bat is not hitting automatically. And not each hitting is of the same force. Therefore the hitting of the ball by the bat, it depends on the other cause, the man who is handling the bat.

Syamasundara: Then using another example, that every apple on the tree will fall, but when it is ripe, it will fall to the ground. There is no man involved with that. What about that?

Prabhupada: No. That is his imperfect vision. We say that God is everywhere. God is everywhere. Andantara-stham paramanu cayantara-stham. God is present everywhere, even within the atom. Now the modern atomic theory, they will explain from atomic theory about the falldown of the apples. But we say that within the atom there is God; therefore God is the ultimate cause.

Syamasundara: What kind of test do we apply to phenomena to see what is the cause?

Prabhupada: For every phenomenon there is a cause.

Syamasundara: But how do we determine that God is the cause behind everything?

Prabhupada: Because then we know that God is the ultimate pusher, the pushing begins from there. So it may come through various agents. Just like one railway wagon is pushed by the engines, and it strikes another wagon and that is also pushed; another wagon, and that is pushed, that is also pushed. Similarly, the original pusher is the engine. Our study is like that, that the original, sa aiksata, sa aiksata... These are the Vedic... He glanced over, He desired; immediately there was creation. Therefore the original pusher is God, Krsna. Now, how it is happening, that we cannot see. Just like same example, the wagon is already pushed, it is coming automatically. A child sees, "Oh, this wagon is coming automatically, and it caught another wagon, and it is now moved." He sees the (effect). But he did not see that ultimately there was a big engine that has pushed it.

Syamasundara: If we see a phenomenon like the rain falling or anything, and we want to apply the test that will prove that God is the cause of that phenomenon, what test do we apply?

Prabhupada: The sastras, the Vedic literature is there, the Upanisads are there, books are there, sastra caksusa. You have to see it through the sastras. That is the injunction. You cannot see directly. You have to see sastra caksusa. Your eyes, they are defective. Just like if you read astrology, astronomy, then you can understand what is the actual volume or the bulk of the sun, but by your eyes you are seeing just a disc. So all your senses are defective. So directly seeing or perceiving or tasting has no value, because these are all defective. So we have to, it is said, you should see through sastras, through authoritative instruction.

Syamasundara: So if we see the apple fall from the tree, the test that we apply is the sastric test. In order to see God in that act of falling, we have to see it through the eyes of the sastras.

Prabhupada: Now what do the scientists saythe law of gravity.

Syamasundara: Yes. The fruit became ripe, the stem...

Prabhupada: The law of gravity, why was it not applying..., why did it not fall before?

Syamasundara: Now the fruit has become ripe so the stem has rotted...

Prabhupada: Therefore the law of gravity is not all. There is another condition. So that he does not know.

Syamasundara: Yes, many conditions must...

Prabhupada: Yes. So these conditions are made by God. The same apple is hanging and not falling down. That means other conditions are not yet fulfilled. So therefore simply studying law of gravity is not perfect.

Syamasundara: No. They all study that the fruit was not yet ripe, and when it becomes ripe the stem rots, dies, and then it will become loose and fall.

Prabhupada: So that means there are other conditions. And ripening condition is also not an effect. There are similar other fruits also. Why are they not ripened?

Syamasundara: Well, eventually they will all become ripened.

Prabhupada: Yes. So that is the law, not in your hand. When it will ripen, your law of gravitation will act. And that ripening condition is not in your hand.

Syamasundara: But there are other material conditions that cause the ripening.

Prabhupada: Whatever conditions they may be, these conditions are already there, made by God. You are simply studying some of them, that's all. Therefore your studying is not sufficient. Here is a scientist. He'll say. What do you think?

Svarupa Damodara: Our senses are imperfect, simply by empirical scientific knowledge is (indistinct) are not complete (indistinct). So you..., we cannot compete with maya. The ultimate conclusion is that there is a supreme cause.

Prabhupada: Sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1]. So our knowledge, Krsna conscious people, our knowledge is perfect. We say everything is caused by Krsna. That's all.

Syamasundara: Even if you study the way the sun and the rain and so on combined to make this fruit ripe, you still have the question, "Well, why is there fruit in the first place?" Why is there fruit? Why has fruit appeared on this planet? There's no cause, apparently. But God has a cause.

Prabhupada: God has made the law so perfect that one afterone cause affects something, and that affects another thing, another thing, one after another, so many things, ultimately. So we do not know so many things. We see the fruit, but how the fruit is growing, under which law, we simply explain nature. But it is not nature. There is a law. It is not only growing, the apples are having this nice color outside the skin, they have been painted; everything is perfectly being done by the laws, by the energy of Krsna. Just like if you want to make a beautiful fruit, you paint it yellow or red, you take so much time. You apply your energy. The same energy is being applied there. Otherwise why, wherefrom you get the idea that a nice fruit can be painted like this? God is dictating that "You want to make a fruit, paint, you do like this, do like that." So similarly He is doing. But my doing takes so much time, because my energy is so blunt and limited. But His energy is so perfect that immediately (indistinct). The same example, just like Telex. There are so many methods, now this is latest. Immediately type here, immediately there. So before that, one could not believe that how is it I type here and five thousand miles away the type striking. So there is a law. It is not that it is magic.

Syamasundara: Oh, I see. Before the Telex there was law, but we didn't know it.

Prabhupada: Yes. We didn't know it. Similarly, everything is being done under some systematic law, but we do not know it.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. There is one common observation also in science. They say that nothing can come out of nothing. That is already there. But it is not known, due to our imperfect senses.

Prabhupada: That is science, we do not know.

Syamasundara: Nothing can come out of nothing.

Prabhupada: Nothing. If something has come out, then background must be something. Therefore our definition is janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1], everything, the root cause, the original source, is the Brahman, Absolute Truth. So whatever we are exhibiting, just like the other day, whatever we are thinking, there is some existence. Otherwise it cannot come to our ideas and thinking. The same scientific theory: nothing can come out of nothing.

Syamasundara: So if you are thinking of something, then it is already there.

Krsna Kanti: The scientists say they haven't created something. They have..., we've discovered something.

Prabhupada: That's it. That I also said the other day. We can say we have discovered. We cannot invent. America was discovered, not invented. The land was already there.

Bhavananda: We want to claim credit.

Prabhupada: Anyone does something new, he takes credit. [break] ...so sun is taking away life. Why you were not present when we were discussing this verse?

Syamasundara: The sun is taking our life?

Devananda: (indistinct)

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: Yes. I came in about halfway through.

Prabhupada: Why? You should have come.

Syamasundara: I was typing. I should have come.

Prabhupada: Yes. Unless you hear, how you will be able to preach? Hearing is very important.

Devotee: Do the rays of the sun actually take away our life?

Prabhupada: Rays... Actually, don't you find you're dying daily? Then? That is real.

Devotee: It means each time the sun rises and set...

Prabhupada: Yes. One day's past means one day you lose. That's all. The sunshine..., the sunrise and sunset means passing days, that's all.

Devotee: (in background) She said it was only $400 and it would be another hundred at the end of June.

Prabhupada: Oh! That's all right. No. I thought if it's dropped somewhere.

Devotee: She said Karandhara had made a mistake. She told him $400 and he said $500.

Prabhupada: Oh. That's all right.

Syamasundara: Today we will finish up John Stuart Mill, by discussing his ethical, social and political philosophy...

Prabhupada: Somebody was typing this, you told me, this philosophy?

Syamasundara: Two girls.

Prabhupada: Typing?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: (indistinct) done?

Syamasundara: Yes. They've done some.

Prabhupada: Let's see how they're doing.

Syamasundara: Well, they're going to... Whatever they cannot understand, they're leaving blanks, and I'll listen later and fill it in.

Prabhupada: Hm. Yes.

Syamasundara: We were discussing last time these utilitarians. Their philosophy is that the greatest good for the greatest number of people, and that that should be followed, that law, and that that means the greatest pleasure for the greatest number.

Prabhupada: Greatest good for the greatest number of people. So that means even if the people are fools and rascals. Does it mean so? Now some of the fools and rascals, they, just like at the present moment, they'll want, "Give us LSD." Then LSD is first-class thing? Is that philosophy?

Syamasundara: Well, according to some...

Prabhupada: Well, "according to," that's another thing. We are discussing whether this is philosophy or nonsense. That is our question. The greatest number at the present moment in your country, they'll say, "LSD is very nice. We like it." So does it mean government will allow, "Yes, the greatest number of people are wanting it. It must be..."

Syamasundara: Mill makes a distinction between quality and quantity. If we are only thinking of quantity of pleasure...

Prabhupada: Then if you come to the quality, then it will be the smallest, because quality... Suppose the whole population, two million population, if you pick up from the population quality, first-class population, you find very small number. In a mass meeting if you ask in the meeting, "Who has passed M.A. examination?" maybe three or four may come. Quality.

Syamasundara: But I mean the pleasure, the type of pleasure, he says it should be qualitatively and quantitatively the greatest.

Prabhupada: Pleasure also, whatever you take, when you put the question of quality of pleasure... Just like ordinary people, they are taking pleasure in eating, sleeping, mating, drinking, like that. But Krsna pleasure is transcendental pleasure. Very few people are taking it. Very small number. So the same question again, why he said that many number of people, they are taking pleasure, so-called pleasure in taking LSD? So will that be taken as pleasure or will that be accepted? We are talking of philosophy.

Syamasundara: Qualitatively that's not a very high pleasure, so he would not recommend it.

Prabhupada: What is his philosophy? First of all he says the greatest number of people, generally... After all, these conditioned souls, they are fools. So if the greatest number you take, that is a great number of fools only. Because in the conditioned state, abodha-jato, they are all fools. Our Vedic philosophy is that a man is born fool, but he is made intelligent by educational culture. That is fact. That is fact. In practical life also we see that we send our boys, our children, to school to become educated. Out of the fools, so many fools, children, who go to school, some of them take degrees, and out of many who take the degrees, some of them become postgraduates, M.A., and out of many postgraduates, some of them become still more learned, doctor in philosophy, like that. So if you go to the quality, the number will decrease. You cannot say greatest number.

Syamasundara: But his idea is to find or to utilize those principles of life which give qualitatively and quantitatively the most pleasure to the most people. That means, he says, by quality he means... Like, for instance, he makes the statement, "It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. It is better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied."

Prabhupada: But how many Socrates will you find? Then again he comes to the minimum. You cannot find Socrates on the street, loitering.

Syamasundara: But he says that that standard of pleasure...

Prabhupada: Then where is the question of maximum men? A Socrates you will find in millions, one.

Syamasundara: But he says that that standard of pleasure that Socrates...

Prabhupada: Then there is no question of maximum people. The number of Socrates is not maximum. That is minimum. That is minimum. If you come to the question of quality, the quality philosophy, quality understanding, that is for the minimum. Just like Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions and millions of persons, one person is trying to become perfect." And yatatam api siddhanam kascid vetthi mam tattvatah: [Bg. 7.3] "Out of millions of such perfect men, one may understand Me, Krsna." That is not quantity, that is quality. That is quality.

Syamasundara: He says that the highest quality pleasure, such as Socrates would enjoy, the high intelligence...

Prabhupada: That is not for mass of men, not for the greatest number of men. That is the minimum. That philosophy is understood by minimum number.

Syamasundara: But he says that this standard should be applied to all men, that all men should be trained to find pleasure in this standard.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. That means quality pleasure should be introduced to the... What, at the beginning you said maximum pleasure?

Syamasundara: Maximum number. He wants to find out something that will give them maximum pleasure. The purpose of government, politics, social and ethical life is to provide the greatest pleasure for the greatest number. Now to...

Prabhupada: Greatest pleasure to the greatest number.

Syamasundara: ...find out what is the greatest pleasure, we look for the greatest quality, which we find in someone like Socrates, he says. And then we introduce that as the standard for the greatest quantity.

Prabhupada: But that is not acceptable by the greatest number. That is to be accepted by the smallest number.

Syamasundara: Yes. But he says that should be the standard.

Prabhupada: That is not meant for mass of people, the greatest number. The mass of people, abodha-jata, they are fools and rascals. The Krsna consciousness movement cannot be understood by mass of people. A selected number of men who are fortunate, they can understand.

Syamasundara: He advises that the state or the ...

Prabhupada: Just like ekas candra tamo hanti. Moon, you will find one in the sky, but stars, millions. But moon is wanted, not the stars, to drive away the darkness. That is our philosophy. You cannot say that there may be many moons. No. That is not possible. Many stars, maybe, which have no utility. They are glittering only. What is called? Peeping?

Syamasundara: Twinkling.

Prabhupada: Twinkling. But they cannot drive away darkness. That is not possible. Glowworms. As soon as you come to the quality, that is the lowest number, minimum.

Syamasundara: He is trying to find out the standard of pleasure that is most desirable.

Prabhupada: That he does not know. That he has to learn from us. He may be a big philosopher in the Western countries, but our utility of pleasure he does not know. Our pleasure is... [break] ...incessant. It will not stop. That is the standard of high-class pleasure. That is quality. Here in the material world we have got experience, we get pleasure, but that is transient. Just like ordinary men, they understand sex pleasure is the highest pleasure. Actually, on sex pleasure the whole material world is existing. But how long this sex pleasure can remain? A few minutes. So our philosophy is we don't want that few minutes' pleasure. We want pleasure which will continue perpetually. Nityananda. Nitya. Nitya means eternal. Ananda means bliss. Satyananda, real pleasure. Satyam param dhimahi [SB 1.1.1]. We want the actual truth. That is quality. So that standard is mentioned in the Vedic literature, that those who are intelligent persons, those who are yogis... Yogi means perfect man. So they want pleasure which is eternal, not transient. Transient pleasure is liked by fools and rascals. Because fools and rascals, they do not know what is their constitutional position. But one who is intelligent, one who is learned, he knows his constitutional position, that he is eternal, he is not this body. Therefore he must be seeking eternal pleasure. Bodily pleasure... Body is transient, and bodily pleasures are also transient. So that is not sought after by any intelligent man. Those are sought by rascals. Because one identifies himself with the body, therefore bodily pleasure is this pleasure. But one who knows that he is not body, he is eternal. Then he seeks what is that eternal pleasure.

Syamasundara: He says that a small amount of a higher type of pleasure is better than a great amount of a lower type of pleasure.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is our philosophy. What is that..., small?

Syamasundara: A small amount, a small quantity of a high quality pleasure...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ...is better than a great quantity of low quality pleasure.

Prabhupada: That is right. In Bhagavad-gita: svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. If one executes devotional service a little, he can be delivered from the greatest danger. In another place it is said that if anyone by sentiment accepts Krsna consciousness, without any much understanding... Sometimes we are led by the majority, "Oh, so many people are chanting. Let me also chant." Even in that way, by sentiment if one accepts Krsna consciousness, and because he did not accept Krsna consciousness very diligently, or he was not very strong, later on he may fall downstill he is gainer. Still he is gainer. While on the other hand, a person who is very intelligent, karmi, "Oh, what is this nonsense Krsna consciousness? Let us do our duty. We have got our duty to serve our country, to our family, we must earn money," and so many things, that is called varnasrama. According to varna and asrama we are working. They think to execute the duties of varnasrama is first class. They do not take to devotional service. For such persons, Bhagavata says, "What do they gain?" What do they gain? That is our philosophy. That Krsna consciousness qualitatively, it is so great that even taking to Krsna consciousness even for a few days, just like this boy, what is his name? He has come back...

Syamasundara: Hari-vilasa.

Prabhupada: He has come back. He is frank enough. Rayarama, he is coming, but he wants to put some condition, but we say "No. No conditions." You see? Purusottama is writing me letter, "Excuse me." You see? The other boy, what is his name? No, no. Kausalya's husband?

Syamasundara: Durlabha.

Prabhupada: Durlabha. He is also coming. They cannot go. They cannot go. Svalpam apy asya, even for a few days they have mixed with us, it is very difficult for them to give it up. The quality is so nice.

Syamasundara: Yes, this is Mill's idea, that...

Prabhupada: Just like his wife went away and the boys went away, and again come back. Because the quality is so great.

Syamasundara: So that's his idea. He says that this standard should be introduced in the society.

Prabhupada: So therefore, those who are sane men, actually philosophers, they should take up this Krsna consciousness. It is the best philosophy and best utilitarian product. They should take it seriously. But they have no such knowledge. They are simply speculating. But when the actual thing is given, they cannot understand, they cannot evaluate. We were discussing this morning: except this, everything is taking our life, except this. Uttama-sloka-vartaya. Tasyarte yat-ksano nita uttamasloka-vartaya. Except this, this discussion of Krsna consciousness, except this time, any time, that is being taken away by the sun. Anything in this world, whatever it may be, they are all transient. This is only permanent. And because we are permanent, eternal, we should give, we should accept things which has permanent value. It is foolishness to be satisfied with something temporary. Tasyarte yat-ksano nita. Canakya Pandita says also: saced nirartha ksana-nita kanuhani. Sacet nirartha (?), such valuable time, if it is spoiled without any utility, kanuhani tatho vidhah (?). Then what is the greatest loss than that? So you should utilize this philosophical point of Mr... Sir... What is it?

Syamasundara: John Stuart Mill.

Prabhupada: Sir John Stuart Mill to support our movement. Yes. Write one article that "John Stuart Mill suggests this. This is real utility, and here is real utility."

Syamasundara: He gives the same idea by saying that it is better to be like Socrates and be dissatisfied than to be like a pig satisfied.

Prabhupada: Yes. That's nice. Just like we, we have given up everything, dissatisfied. I left home because I was dissatisfied with my wife and children; gave it up. Yes.

Syamasundara: Just like to be a devotee, even though I may be dissatisfied a little, still, but it's better than to be like a pig satisfied.

Prabhupada: Dissatisfaction is a good thing if it is for better advancement. That is wanted. Dissatisfaction. Just like the karmis, they are also dissatisfied with 100,000 of dollars. That means they want to make one million thousands of dollars. So that kind of dissatisfaction for the karmi is good, because he can increase further assets. Similarly, if I am dissatisfied spiritually or I am not making advance, I am still on the material platform. That is good. That dissatisfaction is... Socrates also. Yes. And ass, cats, dogs, they are satisfied with a morsel of grass, that's all. You see? A little stool, what is the value of that satisfaction? What is the value of that? That is our philosophy. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu is dissatisfied. What is that? Kada tava-nama-grahane bhavisyate.

Syamasundara: He says that the only standard we have for that, to understand what is desirable, is that people actually do desire it.

Prabhupada: Desire Krsna, they do not know. Even he does not know, Stuart Mill. We are desiring for Krsna. Actually we love Krsna. That we have experienced several times. First of all, I love my country, or I love my body. Why I love? Because I, the spirit soul, I am there within the body. Therefore I love my body.

Syamasundara: His idea is that if something is desired by people, then it is desirable.

Prabhupada: That means... People desire so many things. Just like hog desires stool. Is that desirable? So similarly, the Bowery bums, they desire simply drinking. Is that very desirable thing? Desirable by the quality. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu desires, that is desire, not the bums. If something is desired by a personality like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that is standard of desire. He desires Krsna. That is real standard of desire. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. The greatest personalities, what they are desiring, that is standard.

Syamasundara: Yes. There would seem to be a fallacy in what he says, because...

Prabhupada: He does not know anything. For the fools he is hero, that's all.

Syamasundara: Just like if you are sick, the medicine the doctor may prescribe may be bitter, not desirable at all, but it will cure you. Still you don't want it. It's not desirable.

Prabhupada: He says?

Syamasundara: No. I mean that seems like he..., there's a fallacy in his reasoning, because if the medicine were undesirable, still it will cure you.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like I was not desiring to take my medicine. When I was a child it was very difficult to give me medicine. Three men required. (laughter) Yes. One will capture me, another (laughing) will take my legs, and then my mother will by force, I will do like this. (gestures locking of teeth, trying to force spoon into mouth, much laughter all around) This was my position. I won't agree to take any medicine. I was so obstinate.

Syamasundara: So that which is really desirable...

Prabhupada: But because it is desirable, the force was applied.

Syamasundara: So we cannot judge what is desirable. Only...

Prabhupada: No. Therefore our philosophy is mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. The great personalities, what do they desire? Therefore we accept spiritual master, higher authority. Whatever he desires, that should be standard of desire, not my desire. Just like Krsna desired the fight, not Arjuna's desire. Arjuna desired not to fight, but he changed his desire not to fight, to fight, because Krsna desired, wanted it. Therefore our standard of desire should be that which is desired by greater personalities, not by me. What I am? I should always think of me as fool. Just like the same, when I was child, I was not desiring to take medicine, but my parents desired. That desire should be forced. Similarly, this Hare Krsna mantra, if actually the state is serious to do the best desirable thing, they should make a law that anyone who is not chanting sixteen rounds, he will be hanged! Then everyone must chant: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsnathe whole world. (laughter) Yes. There was a king. Yes. He wanted to see that everyone must have tilaka and chant Hare Krsna. So he was inspecting silently "Whether my subjects, they are chanting?" So one day he was... How you say? What is called? Incognito, in disguise, he was going. So one householder he was asking "Oh, bring them the beads. I will not forget, or they did not do. I have to abide by the laws, so Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna." Then the king could understand that "My order is being carried out in this way. A whole day he forgot, now he may be captured by law; therefore he's chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna." It happened so.

Syamasundara: He says that there are two moral sanctions for our conduct: one is the internal sanction, or our own inner conscience...

Prabhupada: These are all nonsense-inner conscience. These are all nonsense. He's a nonsense philosopher. What do you mean, inner conscience?

Syamasundara: Well, our sense of duty...

Prabhupada: Sense of duty is different from conscience. The duty, that should be taught by higher personalities: "This is your duty." Just like our principles. The spiritual master orders we must chant so many times, you must give up all these bad habits, sinful habits. This is duty. By conscience what you will understand of duty, a child?

Syamasundara: He's not so much talking about what is the duty, but that these two things are what motivate our moral behavior. They are what check and safeguard our moral behavior: one is conscience, or my own sense of duty, whatever that may be.

Prabhupada: But how you will know it is? He says that one should know whatever his duty. So whatever what is his duty, how he will know it?

Syamasundara: Well, that, our duty is that which produces the most good for the most people.

Prabhupada: This is also vague. This is also vague. There is no definite understanding.

Syamasundara: Just like the golden rule, "Do unto others."

Prabhupada: Then if I conclude that most of the people are taking LSD, so to take LSD is my duty. Is that all right? He is vague. This is not philosophy. How a rascal can conclude about his duty? Rascal has to be trained to know what is duty. A rascal cannot conclude out of his own accord that "This is my duty" or "This is the best thing." Mr. Stuart... What is his name?

Syamasundara: John Stuart Mill.

Prabhupada: John Stuart, he may be able, but it is not possible for ordinary man to know what is duty. The child plays, he does not know that his duty is to study. So parents teach him that "This is your duty. You must go to school. You must learn." So duty is not created by the rascals and fools. Duty is created by higher authority.

Syamasundara: He would agree with that also, but here he says that the higher authorities who determine what is duty, that their rationale or their guiding principles should be what is the greatest good for the greatest number, and that should be our duty.

Prabhupada: Then how he suggests that a man should know his duty, like that? Then he has to approach that greatest authority. Tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That is our philosophy. In order to know our duty, in order to know what is knowledge, we must approach a guru. Gurum evabhigacchet. We must, eva, certainly.

Syamasundara: His guiding principle for that, to determine what is the greatest good for the greatest number, is the golden rule of the Christians, "Do unto others as you..."

Prabhupada: That means you have to approach Christ through... One cannot determine himself. Golden rules of Christianity means that he has to abide by the orders of Christ. That is superior authority.

Syamasundara: That rule is, "Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you." That is the golden rule, this rule of the utilitarians.

Prabhupada: Yes. But they are not following. They are killing, but when he is to be killed, he goes away. But he does not think that "I don't want to be killed. Why shall I kill?" And Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill." But they do not abide by this, and still they will call themselves Christians. Who wants to be killed? Nobody wants. Then why you are killing other animals? Where is your philosophy? If that is the philosophy, that I don't want to be killed, why shall I kill others? Who is following this? I shall kill you under some bad name. We'll give the dog a bad name and hang it. I want to kill cows and I say, "No, they have no soul." And what is the proof that we have got soul? I can kill you? Why there is law? By killing a man, he is hanged. Then why there is no such law for killing animal? What is this philosophy? Rascal's philosophy.

Syamasundara: He says that the second sanction for moral conduct is externalthat is, fear of displeasing men, other men, or fear of displeasing God, hope of winning their favor, that this keeps us in moral conduct.

Prabhupada: Yes. So that means accepting authority. That means accepting authority. So without authority, nobody can be good. That is the conclusion of this philosophy.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: That we accept. Without becoming, without following authority, nobody can become good. That is not possible. Therefore our Vedic injunction is tad vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You must approach a guru if you want to be really learned. Like that. John Stuart had any guru?

Syamasundara: His father.

Prabhupada: His father.

Syamasundara: Also a great philosopher, James Mill.

Prabhupada: So without following guru authority, nobody can be learned. That is not possible.

Syamasundara: Actually, he accepts authority in both cases of moral, of moral sanctions. One, he says, that the authority should determine what is duty, and also so that my conscience will keep me following the duty.

Prabhupada: That duty means to take orders from authority. That is real duty. Otherwise, I cannot create my duty.

Syamasundara: If I accept the authority as my duty...

Prabhupada: The orders of the authority.

Syamasundara: The orders of the authority as my duty, then my conscience keeps me following that order. My conscience.

Prabhupada: Yes. If you agree.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Authority means we agree to follow.

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Just like we follow Krsna. Krsna says, "You give up everything. Surrender unto Me," we accept that. So similarly, that is the duty. Now I may accept Krsna, you may accept Christ, but that doesn't matter. But duty means what the higher authority orders, you must follow. That is duty.

Syamasundara: And if I am aware what is that duty...

Prabhupada: You will be aware as soon as you approach the higher authority. He'll give you order, "Do this," "Do not do this."

Syamasundara: Then my conscience tells me if I am doing it right or wrong, my inner conscience, it tells me...

Prabhupada: Yes. That anyone can understand. Even a dog can understand. You see, if the dog is trying to enter the room, I say "Hut!" he can also, he has got conscience, "Oh, the master does not want me to enter." That conscience is there in cats and dogs. That is not very high consciousness. Real consciousness is Krsna consciousness. That discrimination is there.

Syamasundara: So my inner conscience tells me...

Prabhupada: You know the consciousness of the tiger? Actual fact, you know the big, big circus tigers are trained to play. So the training is, I learned it from their men, that when the tiger comes, raw tiger from the (jungle) comes... What is the tiger player, player, what he is called? What is his name?

Syamasundara: Ring master? Trainer. Trainer. Animal trainer.

Prabhupada: Trainer, yes. So the raw tiger is kept in the cage and the trainer comes for several days, he simply whips. Then for several days whips and gives some food, and then he comes with the whip and food. So he does not whip, he gives some food. In this way tiger becomes tamed by him. So he plays before the trainer only. He has got that whip. Because he is animal, he has got that impression, "He will kill me." Therefore he plays. As soon as this man goes away, he will immediately attack, anyone comes. Just like dog, he fears the (master); for others he jumps over. So it is a question of training. So he has got the conscience. My point is that he has got the conscience, "Oh, here is my trainer. He will kill me." He has got this conscience. This is good. "If I attack, oh, he will kill me. But here is an ordinary man, I can kill him." So he has difference of conscience. Even the tiger, even the cats, and the dogs. This discrimination, power of discrimination, is there in the animals also. But that is not consciousness. Real consciousness is to accept Krsna. That is real consciousness. [break]

Syamasundara: He advocates complete individualism and freedom, that everyone should have complete freedom to do...

Prabhupada: That is nonsense. That is nonsense. That is nonsense. Nobody has got that.

Syamasundara: He says that everyone should be free...

Prabhupada: Then everyone should be philosopher. He has got his own philosophy. Everyone has got his own philosophy.

Syamasundara: Yes. He says that in this way by everyone being free to compete, the best ones will come out.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is not freedom; that is competition.

Syamasundara: Competition. But in order to compete, there has to be freedom.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is another thing. But nobody is independent. That is our point of view. Everyone is dependent. Somebody is voluntarily dependent on Krsna and somebody is by force dependent on maya. That's all. But he must be dependent.

Syamasundara: He says in this way that society should be organized so that there is freedom of belief, freedom to unite, freedom of taste, freedom of competition. But one individual's freedom should not encroach upon another individual's freedom.

Prabhupada: Then why they are killing? The freedom of the poor animals, why they encroach on the freedom of others? Isavasyam idam sarvam ma grdhah kasya svid dhanam [Iso mantra 1]. Do not encroach upon others' freedom. That is Vedic injunction. That is nice. But why these people are encroaching upon the freedom of these animals? The birds, they are flying, freedom, the ducks. Why they kill? Encroaching upon other's freedom. Without any harm, the birds are flying, without... If you kill an aggressor then you are right. Suppose somebody is coming to kill you, then you kill first. That is good. But if somebody's not doing anything harm to you, and if you kill, then what is this philosophy? What is this philosophy? Give him some bad name, because I have to kill him. "Oh, he has no soul." You can attack, he has no consciousness, you have no soul. You can attack him. Why you are killing? Let him kill you. So far this philosophy of religion, he says that God is good, but that he is involved in a world which is not his own making. That God didn't create the world, but that he is involved with it. Then we should be judged by Mill. God is good, but not as good as he thinks he is. That is his opinion about God.

Syamasundara: No. God is... God is good...

Prabhupada: God is good in all conditions, or God is good when Stuart Mill accepts? What is the position of God?

Syamasundara: He says that the presence of evil indicates that if God were everything, that He would be not so good.

Prabhupada: Why? Therefore God has to depend on the free will or on the opinion of Mr. Mill? Is that? He says that God is not so good. God is good, but not so good because he does not approve all of His activities.

Syamasundara: No. He says that God is good, but He is limited in His power; otherwise everything would be good.

Prabhupada: How nonsense he is! And he is philosopher. He is making God limited, and he is philosopher. Just see.

Syamasundara: He says if God were good then everything would be good.

Prabhupada: Everything is good! That is our philosophy. When the God kills the demons, immediately flowers are showered upon Him from the sky. You have not read in...? He is good. He is always good. He has no idea of God, and still he poses himself as philosopher. God is good. Krsna chanted, danced with others' wives at dead of night. Any man who does it, he is immediately a debauch, licentious. But still we worship that rasa-lila. We worship that rasa-lila. We keep the picture of God's dancing with others' wives. That is God. In all circumstances, God is good. That is worshipable. That is idea of God. Not that I put Him under my judgment: "Oh, yes, you are good, but not so good." Then I am a fool. I create my own God. "I am better than God. I can create God." No. God creates you. You cannot create God.

Syamasundara: He says that because there is evil present in the world, that this shows...

Prabhupada: But he does not know what is evil, what is good. He should know what is created by God is good, even if it appears to be evil to us. That is conception of God. I may think it is evil, but it is good. I do not know how it is goodthat is my fault. That is my fault. But it is good. If I put God under my discrimination, under my judgment, that He is not good. He is not God; He is dog. God cannot be under my judgment. God is good always.

Syamasundara: So that's all for John Stuart Mill. (end)