Initiations—July 18, 1971, Detroit

710718IN-DETROIT [68:45 Minutes]

In fact it is called a 'mad elephant' offense to offend a pure devotee

Prabhupada: The ten offenses, explain. [japa]

Jagadisa: [explains ten offenses]

So there are 10 offences. One must be very careful to avoid in chanting Hare Krsna mantra, explained here. The first, to blaspheme the devotees who have dedicated their lives for propagating the holy name of the Lord.

This means one must be free from envy-especially of the spiritual master. In the Nectar of Devotion, it is explained that one may not envy the spiritual master as he would an ordinary man. One may not be envious of the spiritual master, this enviousness of the spiritual master-blaspheme the spiritual master's position. The spiritual master being an emissary of Krsna. An ambassador, just like if the ambassador of United States, suppose France was insulted then it is taken as an insult by the president. It is taken as an insult, by the leader of the country.

So the ambassador is just a representative, but the offense to the ambassador is not forgiven, in the case of a pure devotee Krsna never forgives this offense. Because the pure devotee, the spiritual master is so dear to Krsna performing the most beneficial activity to reform souls in the material world and thereby as Krsna explains in the 18th chapter of the Bhagavad-gita. There He explains this science of devotional service, the devotee is the most dear to the Lord. So therefore anyone who blasphemes or insults the spiritual master, the pure devotee is automatically becoming greatly hindered in his advancement in devotional service.

In fact it is called a 'mad elephant' offense to offend a pure devotee. Just as in a garden there are so many nice flowers and plants growing but if an elephant gets into the garden. If a 'mad elephant' gets into the garden then all the vines and flowers are torn, torn away from the roots. And so with devotional service, the creeper of devotional service can be completely destroyed by this offense to the pure devotee. This must be avoided.

The second offense. "To consider the names of the demigods like Lord Siva or Lord Brahma to be equal to or independent of the name of Lord Visnu." Sometimes the atheistic class of men take it that any demigod is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Visnu but one who is a devotee knows that no demigod no matter how great he may be is independently as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore if somebody thinks that he can chant, "Kali, Kali," or "Durga, Durga," and it is the same as Hare Krsna, that is the greatest offense.

So, also in the Nectar of Devotion it is described that one who thinks of the demigods on an equal level with Krsna or he thinks that it is alright that if you worship the demigods you will get to Krsna, he is considered an atheist. He is not understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead and his position as the supreme over all the spiritual world and material world.

The demigods are merely living entities like ourselves, emanations from Krsna. They cannot be accepted as God. Sometimes they are accepted by foolish men, these foolish men are accepting, this is atheistic. So we should be careful to avoid comparing the demigods with the Lord placing them on any kind of equal level with the Supreme Personality Krsna. Krsna is the source of the demigods, as He explains in the Bhagavad-gita and in the 9th chapter all about spiritual knowledge, Krsna says, "Whatever is offered to the demigods is actually meant for Me. Albeit without due understanding-for I am the source of the demigods."

"The third offense is to disobey the orders of the spiritual master." The spiritual master's instructions are given explicitly to the devotees so that he may make advancement so if the devotee neglects to follow these instructions of the spiritual master, his advancement will be in trouble. In the Bhagavad-gita Lord Krsna tells Arjuna, "Never mind, don't consider loss or gain, victory or defeat, just fight for the sake of fighting-just fight."

So one must... In the purport Srila Prabhupada explains, one must execute the instructions of the spiritual master as if in military discipline, that may seem troublesome [indistinct]. But the troubles will preposter[?] tapasya, the difficulty will only go on by the disciples because he is following the instructions of the spiritual master. This is the key, this is the key to advancement in Krsna consciousness. After all the devotee must learn to hate sense enjoyment. This tapasya means the giving up of sense enjoyment for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord. This is very beneficial for advancing in Krsna consciousness. It must be accepted, if one neglects or disobeys the orders of the spiritual master his progress is greatly hindered.

"To blaspheme the Vedic literature or literature in pursuance of the Vedic version." Just like [break] Srimad-Bhagavatam may contain many stories like Lord Krsna when He was in Dvaraka from each of His 16,108 palaces each day He would give away thousands of cows. Material [?], this material nature[?] so, so many cows every day were being given away by Krsna. This is inconceivable we can't understand so many instances, parts of the scriptures will seem inconceivable. But we must accept it as it is, we cannot test.

We can test by following the instructions of the spiritual master then all will become revealed by Krsna's causeless mercy. This is Krsna's inconceivable potency. The example is given of cow dung and conch shell, being the bone and stool of an animal. Ordinarily even if one touches dung or stool of an animal he must immediately bathe, or the bone.

But the bone of a conch shell and the dung of cow dung these are pure, it is stated in the Vedic scriptures. It may be doubted, you may say, "Oh this is contradictory because it also says as soon as one may touch the dung of an animal, stool of an animal one must bathe." But the scientists are discovering, yes. The stool of a cow, cow dung is full of all antiseptic properties. So the Vedic scriptures and literatures in pursuance of the Vedic version, all are perfect but they must come in disciplic succession.

Literatures in pursuance of the Vedic version coming through Rūpa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami, Bilvamahgala dasa Thakura, Bhaktivinode Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and Srila Prabhupada. All these literatures coming through disciplic succession in pursuance of the Vedic version must be accept the cent per cent as the absolute truth. One must not blaspheme these gurus.

The next offense is, "to consider the glories of chanting Hare Krishna to be imagination." Very simply this is just [indistinct] to be mental speculation. Anyone who chants seriously, sincerely with a view to understanding Krsna and becoming purified to gain relief from material miseries. Anyone, four classes of men come to Krsna. Those in want of money, those in material distress, those who are curious and those who are in knowledge.

Anyone of these men by chanting Hare Krishna seriously, just after a short time though note the effect. And only because of someone's entanglement, mental activities, mental speculation would they consider this chanting an imaginative process. So we must be careful to avoid all speculation about chanting the holy name. The holy names are pure and this can be experienced by anyone and everyone. [indistinct]

And the next offense, "To interpret the holy name of the Lord." This again, the name of the Lord is non-different from the Lord himself. It can't be changed, Krsna is non-different from Krsna the personality and it can be understood by any intelligent man verified [indistinct]

By hearing Hare Krishna from the authorised spiritual master everyone even if he a very sinful person can become free and can eventually come to a purified state because of the potency of the chanting of Hare Krishna. So we cannot interpret, Krsna gives full information about His name. Krsna's name, His self, His pastimes...

Prabhupada: [aside:] Give them chairs. Some ladies are standing.

Jagadisa: ...paraphernalia, are all the same, same on the absolute level.

So the next offense is, "To commit sinful activities on the strength of the holy name of the Lord. Because by chanting the holy name of the Lord one can be freed from all kinds of sinful reactions, it should not be taken that one may continue to act sinfully and after that chant Hare Krsna to neutralize his sins. Such a mentality is very dangerous and should be avoided."

So Krsna being the supreme absolute truth Personality of Godhead gives us this chanting of Hare Krishna to come to Him, chant Hare Krishna you can go back home, back to Godhead and come to Krsna. Krsna and His name are non-different, devotional service and the kingdom of God are the same. Devotional service is the beginning of the process in practice. Devotional service and the practice are all bhakti and in the end devotional service is the end.

Devotional service is non-different from Krsna as well, so we must chant and engage in Krsna's devotional service. But if we think we can chant and allow our senses still to go still freely, this is a mistake. You may think, "Oh I will be freed anyway, I will be purified by chanting and then indulge, think about meditate on or engage in some way in the objects of the senses. This is like trying to light a fire while pouring water on the thing.

How can you cleanse the lust if you are remaining lustful? If you are deceiving and give in to your lustful desires while meditating on the objects of the senses, or engaging with the objects of the senses at the same time trying to become purified. No, one must try to control the senses. Controlling the senses is very important, we must control our mind and if the senses are out of control the mind cannot be controlled.

So the senses must be controlled by meditating on Krsna's lotus feet. The Deity in the temple, the picture of Krsna, the picture of Vrndavana, by controlling our senses, by burning incense in the temple, the smelling of flowers offered to the Deities. Controlling the sense of touch, chanting japa, playing instruments, [indistinct], dancing for Krsna.

Another sense the tongue, chanting Hare Krishna, taking bhagavata prasadam. Then the hearing, of course by hearing the transcendental vibration Hare Krishna. All the senses must be controlled this way then the mind will be controlled. And we can focus the mind on Krsna's lotus feet. The mind will be wavering here and there, but if we control the lower self...

Prabhupada: Or, in other words, when you fix up your mind in Krsna, then senses will be automatically controlled.

Jagadisa: Ah.

Prabhupada: This way is difficult. That way is easy. You fix up your mind... Sa vai manaḥ krsna-padaravindayor vacamsi vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane [SB 9.4.18]. Ambarisa Maharaja, he was a emperor, but he was a great devotee. How? He always fixed up his mind on the lotus feet of Krsna. Vacamsi. Sa vai manaḥ krsna-padaravindayor. Krsna-padaravindayor, on the lotus feet of Krsna, he fixed up his mind. Vacamsi vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane.

The next is the tongue. Mind fixed up, then the next sense is, important sense, is the tongue. Next to the mind, the tongue should be controlled. How? By chanting Hare Krsna and eating krsna-prasadam. Then other senses will be automatically controlled.

[continues chanting japa]

Jagadisa: [continues lecture] Then there will be no more sinful activities if the mind is fixed on Krsna and the tongue is fixed on Krsna. Sinful activities on [indistinct]. One must know the goal by intelligence. We must know the goal...

Prabhupada: That verse is not quoted there? Sa vai manaḥ krsna-padaravindayor vacamsi vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane [SB 9.4.18]. Leg should be engaged to go to the temple of Krsna. Hand should be engaged for cleansing the temple. Nose should be engaged for smelling tulasi which is offered to the lotus feet of Krsna. Ear should be engaged for hearing about Krsna. Eyes should be engaged for seeing Krsna beautifully dressed.

These things are... In this way, the temple worship means all these senses being engaged in Krsna consciousness, mind and senses. Then they can..., cannot do any harm. They're already engaged. They cannot have any other engagement. And if you keep vacant the mind and the senses, then maya will capture. Then eye will go to see the cinema and tongue will go to the restaurant, for [indistinct] steak, what is called? These things will be engaged. [laughter] Yes. [continues japa]

Jagadisa: [continues lecture] The next offense to be avoided is, "To consider the chanting of Hare Krsna as one of the auspicious ritualistic activities which are offered in the Vedas as fruitive activities karma-kanḍa."

In the Bhagavad-gita also it is explained that when your mind has become free from the dense forest of delusion then you will be indifferent to all that is given[?] and all that is to be imparted [?]. By chanting Hare Krishna one becomes immediately free from the dense forest of delusion, I mean ignorance of Krsna.

Remembering Krsna and remembering His holy name thereby remembering His lotus feet one is automatically fulfilling all the purposes of the Vedas. In the second chapter of the Bhagavad-gita [indistinct] the purposes of a small pond are immediately fulfilled by a large reservoir of water [japa] understand [indistinct] the Vedas. All the Vedas [indistinct] all the puerile activities, the rules and regulations. Just fix your mind on Krsna [indistinct].

The next offense is, "To instruct a faithless person about the glories of the holy name. Anyone can take part in chanting the holy name of the Lord, but in the beginning one should not be instructed about the transcendental potency of the Lord. Those who are too sinful cannot appreciate the transcendental glories of the Lord, and therefore it is better in the beginning not to instruct them in this matter."

However the process of chanting Hare Krishna works so quickly to cleanse the mind that in a very short time the devotees who have come to Krsna consciousness relish the activities of the Lord in His form as Krsna and in fact the pastimes of Lord Krsna are so powerful. Srila Prabhupada points out in the introduction of Krsna Book that even if a materialist reads about the activities of Krsna and the gopis and he understands them only on the level of a young boy and young girl.

Still they will become purified because these activities are 100% transcendental. Krsna's pastimes are completely purifying, so anyone who appreciates Krsna's activities becomes purified. So we must always try to fix our mind on Krsna-Krsna's activities, Krsna's lotus feet...

Prabhupada: Bhavausadhi srotra-mano-'bhiramat [SB 10.1.4]. Krsna's pastimes are described as the medicine of the disease, bhava. Bhava means repeated birth and death. This is a disease. So bhavausadhi. The medicine, panacea, for curing this disease, bhavausadhi. At the same time, srotra-mano-'bhiramat: it is very pleasing to hear, and very enlightening to the heart. Krsna's name is so nice, Krsna's pastime is so nice, that it is very pleasing, satisfying, at the same time, it is the medicine for the disease of repeated birth and death. [continues japa]

Jagadisa: [continues lecture] This is the very reason why Krsna appears in the material world at all. He appears so that others may know and hear of His transcendental activities and thereby be attracted to offer to Him and be engaged on the spiritual platform and give up all material desires. Just to know Krsna's activities and pastimes are all attractive, Krsna means all attractive and His pastimes are to attract the conditioned souls to give up.

Give up material association and go back to Krsna be with Krsna in the spiritual realm. And the last offense is, "To not have complete faith in the chanting of the holy names and to maintain material attachments, even after understanding so many instructions on this matter." One of the qualities of...

Prabhupada: The more you become free from material harassment, the more you make advance in spiritual life, or the more you make advance in spiritual life, the more you become detached to the material life. These are the tests. Bhaktiḥ paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. Bhakti, devotional life, spiritual life, the test is that viraktir anyatra. Anyatra means beyond, without Krsna, everything becomes detestful.

The example is given just like a hungry man, when he's eating, as he's eating so he's feeling satisfaction and no hunger, proportionately. And at one time it will come, he'll say, "No, I don't want any more. I am completely satisfied." Svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace [Cc Madhya 22.42]. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. He said, "I am now completely satisfied. I have..., I haven't got to ask anything, benediction."

That is the progress and ultimate goal of bhakti. As soon as one is saturated with bhakti, he has no more demand, no more attraction for this material world. Not... Krsna attraction means decreasing attraction for the material world. Go on. [chants japa] One can test his advancement for spiritual life, how he is being detached to the material life.

That's all. It is not to be taken certificate from others. Just like when you eat, you haven't got to take certificate from others. You'll feel, "Yes, I'm satisfied." That's all. You don't require, while eating nicely, you don't require to take certificate: "Am I eating nicely?"

Devotees: [laughter]

Prabhupada: You'll know yourself. [japa]

Jagadisa: One must be convinced of success and Visnu is success the only key to advancement. So Krsna gives a taste, you feel satisfaction coming, just like when eating one feels the satisfaction. In Krsna consciousness this satisfaction is coming.

Prabhupada: Another example is given: the candy. Candy, when a man is suffering from jaundice disease, if you give him candy, he'll taste it bitter. That means more one is materially suffering, he'll not be interested to Krsna consciousness. But the example is this: The candy is the only medicine for jaundice. So we have to give him candy by force. And as he cure, as he cures, he'll say, "Oh, candy's very nice. Candy's sweet." [laughter]

So in the beginning we have to force. We have to give the medicine just like horse is given medicine. Three men required to induce medicine to the mouth of the horse. So this is our duty, to inject Hare Krsna medicine, just like pushing medicine in the throat of a horse. By force. [laughter] [japa]

[devotees chant fire sacrifice prayers]

Prabhupada: Then neck, neck beads. Neck beads let them...

Jagadisa:

Jagadisa: Those who are second initiates taking the brahminical initiation. This has been called by His Divine Grace as more important than the first initiation. Receiving Gayatri mantra is supposed to be done, done only by those who have become fixed up in the mode of goodness.

Earlier on I was explaining about the lust full coverings of the living entities. How the lustful covering can be completely cleansed by the chanting of Hare Krishna.

Prabhupada: Go on. I shall distribute this. Who is this?

Jagadisa: Should I go on, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jagadisa: So, after a year's time or less, sometimes more.

[lecture continues in background] [devotees coming up, taking initiation]

Prabhupada: Atmarama dasa. Atmarama means who is satisfied with self-realization. Next?

Devotee: Puranjana.

Prabhupada: Puranjana was a great king, devotee, in the history. [japa]

Jagadisa: He is completely fixed up in the mode of goodness. Completely cleansed of all lustful coverings. Lustful coverings due to contamination with association with the material modes. So after a short time, if one is qualified because he is fixed in the mode of goodness. Mode of goodness means he is not attracted by the objects of the senses. Belly, anger, the tongue, genitals and so forth. We have to be completely free from material attachments.

Devotee: Puranjana.

Prabhupada: Puranjana was a great king, devotee, in the history. [japa]

Jagadisa: All material attachments are completely wiped away by the chanting Hare Krishna. One becomes fixed in the mode of goodness and by taking brahminical initiation from the spiritual master one then eventually becomes qualified, becomes situated in pure goodness and therefore can become a spiritual master himself.

Prabhupada: [japa]

Jagadisa: Sometimes the tongue as in the case of Srila Sukadeva Gosvami. He was not required to undergo any purificatory activities and Sukadeva Gosvami was completely liberated from birth. But this brahminical initiation is a second birth. This is the title given to the spirit soul taking a second birth. It is dvija, twice born.

Devotee: Aprakrta.

Prabhupada: Aprakrta. Aprakrta means transcendental. Yes. Hare Krsna. Then, next?

There are different stages of understanding. First understanding is direct perception, pratyaksa. In Sanskrit word it is called pratyaksa, direct understanding. That tenth-class understanding. That is not actually understanding, direct perception. But people are giving stress that "I want to see. I want to touch." This is called pratyaksa.

Then next is paroksa, hearing from authorities. Then aparoksa, realizing. Then adhoksaja means beyond the perception of the senses. And then aprakrta, transcendental. These are the stages for going to the aprakrta, transcendental stage. From direct perception, then pratyaksa, paroksa, to take instruction from others. Then realization. Then beyond these senses. Then aprakrta, transcendental.

So Krsna is aprakrta. Krsna cannot be understood by direct sense perception. Gradually you have to rise to the aprakrta stage, which is called vasudeva stage, beyond this material understanding. That will take time. You have to practice that. Hare Krsna. Come on.

Devotee: Hiranyagarbha.

Prabhupada: Hiranyagarbha. Hiranyagarbha is Lord Brahma's name. Or Garbhodakasayi Visnu's name. Generally Garbhodakasayi Visnu's. Hiranyagarbha dasa. That's all right.

Then, next? Where is...? No neck bead? How is that? Heh? Where is neck bead? Huh? Oh, these things are not good. It must be well equipped. Otherwise, what is the meaning of initiation?

Give... No neck bead? Go on. First of all get neck beads. Who is next? You have got neck beads? [indistinct comment by devotee] That's alright.

Devotee: Visvakarma dasa.

Prabhupada: Visvakarma. That's nice. Visvakarma is the engineer of this universe. Hare Krsna. Jaya. You know what are the rules and regulation?

Visvakarma: No intoxication, no illicit sex...

Prabhupada: That's right. Next? [laughter] Come on.

Devotee: Dinesvara dasa.

Prabhupada: Dinesvara. Dinesvara is the name of sun, sun-god. Come on. We are all dasa, not the person. When you call "Krsna," "Krsna" means Krsna dasa. When you call Dinesvara, Dinesvara means Dinesvara's servant. Our position is always servant. Dasa-anudasa [Cc Madhya 13.80]. Servant of the servant, servant of the servant. The more..., the more you become on the lower status of servant, our position is greater. This is...

Come on. Next. [japa]

You arranged for offering this sacrifice? You arranged? [indistinct comment by devotee] What is name?

Devotee: Mahavi dasa.

Prabhupada: Maha...?

Devotee: Mahavi.

Prabhupada: Eh? Mahavira. Mahavira.

Devotee: M-a-h-a-v-i.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee: M-a-h-a-v-i. Mahavi?

Prabhupada: M-h-a...

Devotee: M-a-h-a-v-i.

Prabhupada: ...'r' Mahavira. Mahavira is the name of Hanuman, the servant of Lord Ramacandra. He was very strong. He could raise even the hills for service of the Lord. Mahavira. Maha means great, and vira means hero. Come on. Hare Krsna. [laughter] Don't laugh.

Then? [japa]

Devotee: Bahirsmati dasi.

Prabhupada: Barhismati, one of the daughters of Manu. Come on. Hare Krsna. You know what are the rules? Tell me.

Barhismati: No meat-eating, no illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling.

Prabhupada: Thank you. Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Come on. Next. Who's is this?

Devotee: Went to get some neck beads on.

Prabhupada: Oh, all right. Then how many still remaining?

Devotee: Three.

Prabhupada: All right. [japa] First of all grains mixed up. [japa]

Come on. Take your... Come on.

Whose beads are lying on the floor there? Whose beads?

Oh, you never put it in the floor. When there is no bag, you put like this.

Devotee: Mahayogi.

Prabhupada: Mahayogi. Mahayogi is a name of Lord Siva. Hare Krsna. Take. [japa]

Devotee: Uttamasloka. Uttamasloka dasa.

Prabhupada: Uttamasloka. Uttamasloka means Krsna who is chanted with best verses. Come on. [japa]

Jagadisa: The mantras can be recited again, and this time the initiates can mix up the grains in their hands and throw, at the end of each prayer, the grains on the fire by saying svaha and pouring ghee on the fire. All the initiates. All the initiates should surround the fire. Those who are not initiates can leave.

[devotees chant fire sacrifice prayers]

Prabhupada: You keep it.

Jagadisa:

Prabhupada: You keep it. You keep it. [prayers continue] So where is that, he has come? Waiting. I'm going just now. [japa]

Jagadisa:

Devotee: Bhagavati.

Prabhupada: Bhagavati. Goddess Durga's name. Goddess Durga, external energy of Krsna. [japa]

Devotee: Tapasvini.

Prabhupada: Tapasvini: who performs great austerity. [indistinct] ...after performing sacred thread initiation..

Devotee: Sacred thread initiation? [indistinct].

Prabhupada: So we can go. [indistinct].

Jagadisa:

Prabhupada: [leaves] [Devotees offering obeisances]

Jagadisa: Everyone stand up.

namo [end]